California Lead Free zone

[Newtire]

Was at the Sportsman's Exposition in San Mateo today and picked up a flyer at the Dept of Fish & Game. There is now a sizeable hunk of central to southern California that prohibits the use of bullets containing lead while hunting including .22 rimfire even. The way the law defines it, even airguns are included. No lead cores even in jacketted bullets.

You can still target shoot using lead in areas where they will allow that but during fire season, they prohibit even that in some areas (Hunter-Ligget Military Reservation for one).

The thing is is that lead fragments from wounded animals that die later and are scavenged by condors contribute to the ingestion of the lead by the condors & so the condors die of lead poisoning they are saying. So a paper target is still OK.

The good news is that the guy I went to the show with is a guy who works for a local dealership and is going to save me a couple of buckets of wheel weights.

[38 Super Auto]

Newtire, I am sorry to hear that. Didn't the CA legislature pass a bill recently requiring guns to imprint some type of ID on the case? What are the details on that?

[imashooter2]

Wasn't there a thread a while back that defined owning a gun and a lead bullet in those areas as "constructive possession"? I'm surprised the IDPA/USPSA/Cowboy/Bullseye shooters et al aren't screaming bloody murder. I did a search on condor over at Brian Enos' forum and found nary a word.

[Typecaster]

Hey ima— I'm just a shiftless and lazy Irishman, so I'm not going to do all my homework, but I think the legal term was "proximate possession." Follow that thread. But I don't think it was owning," it was being in possession of while hunting...

Al least at this point the info from the State of CA makes it pretty clear that the issue is for hunters, not just recreational shooters. Of course, if you're within the area and you've got a carcass and nothing but ACWW boolets and the warden asks, you're probably SOL. On the other hand, I suppose we could worry that anyone within the area who is innocently "plinking" is automatically circumventing this brilliant regulation...and is therefore a poacher.

[Newtire]

Newtire, I am sorry to hear that. Didn't the CA legislature pass a bill recently requiring guns to imprint some type of ID on the case? What are the details on that?

No law about the ID imprint yet but I heard rumors here on this site. Now that would be pretty disastrous. This lead ban doesn't have anything to do with target shooting, only hunting. I asked about wheelweights and that's when they explained that it had to do with the condors eating the meat around the boolit hole that was contaminated with lead particles. So, until they find out that there are endangered paper eating wasps, the target shooters are safe. I guess we can just go to aluminum cans then. I'm buying stock in Alcoa. California is such a screwed up state. Lord, please get me transplanted.

[Swamprat1052]

The Microstamping Bill passed and Arnold signed it. From what I can tell its only for new models of semi auto pistols but I'm sure they'll get around to all of them yet. Yeah, I want out of this place too.

Swamprat

[JIMinPHX]

When does that microstamping thing take effect?

[fireflyfather]

when the technology becomes available from at least 2 sources, free of licensing entanglements...in other words, in about 200 years. Political grandstanding.

[USARO4]

Another good reason to migrate to the free world.

[sledgehammer]

They 'tried out' the idea of lead-free on us here in Arizona in a AZGFD meeting and we kindly told them where to put it. AZ Game & Fish Dept said they had no intentions of enacting it unless we AZ hunters 'asked' for it. At least , at this point!
Even got the NRA members stirred up here! So far, so good....
Jon H in AZ

[762cavalier]

When does that microstamping thing take effect?

2010 is when it is supposed to take effect buy it probably won't happen until MUCH later. There is something interesting in the wording of the law that states that the process must be "unencumbered by patents" which won't happen until 2023 or so.

Check out Calguns.net for info on all things shooting in CA

Check out this link on microstamping
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72049

[dakotashooter2]

I just saw something about condors on the news the other day that made me further question this whole issue. Apparently they brought in a sick bird and when they X-rayed it they found it's stomach full of junk. Yep. All kinds of asst. junk. Apparently when these birds are reddy to breed they start picking up bone and othe naturally occuring items that supposedly help to strengthen the eggs. These captive raised birds which were then released apparently can't distinguish the junk from the stuff they need. It make one wonder if the birds that have been found to have high lead levels are not finding it in sources other than bullets.

[OeldeWolf]

The lead restrictions law had no scientific basis at all. It was pushed by our political and animal rights groups. But now we are stuck with it. The environmental and anti-gun groups here have also made lead shot on the ranges a legal liability issue, and would love to do away with all lead just to render all firearms inoperable.

The ammo imprinting will be expanded to other types of firearms, just wait and watch. Then they will forbid the transfer or resale of any non-imprinting firearm. I am also sure they will bring back the serial-numbered ammo bill. Which, last version I read, also made possession of unserial numbered ammo a crime.

If the economy was in decent shape, I would be getting ready to sell this house and move somewhere sane. Though that list seems to be getting shorter every year.

OeldeWolf

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Obviously, the Kalifornia legislature is a bunch of commies. It's going to take some national laws to get them under control, if it can be done at all. Hopefully, the whole thing will go to federal court and be struck down some day.

Dave

[MT Gianni]

Obviously, the Kalifornia legislature is a bunch of commies. It's going to take some national laws to get them under control, if it can be done at all. Hopefully, the whole thing will go to federal court and be struck down some day.

Dave

I believe that will be proved as one of the area's that States have rights. Chalk one up for the Constitution. Change in Ca. should come from within. Gianni

[9.3X62AL]

No argument there, Gianni. The best way might be to change from within California to outside California.

[black44hawk]

Sometimes you just have to vote with your feet. California is so far gone I cannot see the conservative constituents turning it around. Our founding fathers said this would happen; they also foresaw the need to occasionally "start over" if you catch my drift.

[JohnSmiles]

Sometimes you just have to vote with your feet. California is so far gone I cannot see the conservative constituents turning it around. Our founding fathers said this would happen; they also foresaw the need to occasionally "start over" if you catch my drift.

Yes they certainly did.
:drinks:

[45nut]

Condor Lead Ammunition Ban Expanded by Court Settlement

A legal settlement approved by the Court has expanded the lead ammunition ban currently in place in Condor “range” in California, an expansive area in south and central California. The settlement requires the California fish and game agencies to ban the use of lead ammunition for killing animals under “depredation” permits, effective immediately. The settlement also requires the agencies to propose a regulation in May 2009 banning lead ammunition in the taking of jackrabbits and other hares, several species of rabbit, and tree squirrels in Condor range. The groups involved in the lawsuit, including the Center for Biological Diversity, have vowed to push for a ban on lead ammunition for all hunting throughout the state.

[pps]

Another good reason to migrate to the free world.

When the libs in my state metastasize to your state and others where will us conservatives be able to flee TO. Some of us are doing our best to fight, but sometimes you feel like the little Dutch boy running out of fingers to stick in the dike.

[Bullshop]

North to Alaska go north the rush is on.
BIC/BS

[timkelley]

One of the problems with escaping the PRC is the "libs" have screwed it up so bad they are leaving too. When they leave they go to cities in other states and stay "libs". Look at Boise, many folks there can't understand hunting, shooting, and conservative thinking and don't know why the rest of the state wishes they would go away. By the way, I escaped (Palm Springs area) three years, three months, and nine days ago.

[9.3X62AL]

The green fruitbats haven't limited themselves to hunting--there is a serious move afoot to block all trout planting in the Sierras due to trout eating some endangered amphibian's tadpoles. Do a web search on "Center for Biological Diversity" to get a glimpse of idiocy that will turn your stomach.

[FN in MT]

I firmly believe that the biggest threat to the 2nd Amendment is going to come from the Health & Welfare end of Govt. They will exploit lead as a known health hazard. Most likely we will see a TAX before we see an all out ban.

The Cali idiots have invaded Montana as well. I have them all around me. I've got an out of State summer resident with a summer home near my east property line. He has called the SO to complain about my shooting SEVERAL times this past summer. Each time the Deputies told him I'm well within my rights.

The last complaint he inquired about LEAD falling on his property. So the handwriting may be on the wall as to his next move.

I feel that eacch and every one of us should do our best to enroll new NRA Members to swell the membership to the 20 or 30 million mark. I think the NRA is our BEST hope.

FN in MT

[Scrounger]

And that is why Ken created an account here for people who believe as you do, to contribute money to buy NRA memberships for people who would not otherwise have them is a good thing. The account's PayPal address is KC97754@gmail.com. If you want to send a check, you can contact him by PM for a mailing address.

[45nut]

I posted an announcement in every forum...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/announcement.php?f=7&a=14

[waksupi]

FN, if you haven't already, register your range. Go to the county commissioners office, and request the paperwork. Fill it out with property description, and a deputy will come out an inspect it for safety. After you have an approved range in Montana, they have an extremely hard time ever shutting it down.

There are laws restricting firearms possession and use in other states which have not been adopted in Montana, not because they are secret or unknown and not by accident, but because it is not the will of the people of Montana. These restrictions absent in Montana include: No registration of firearms; no registration of firearm owners; no permits required to buy firearms; no permits required to own firearms; no permits required to possess firearms; no permits required to transport firearms; no permits required to buy ammunition; no storage requirements for firearms or ammunition; no state waiting period for firearm purchase; no limit on the firearms a person may buy in a specified period; no sales tax on firearms or ammunition; no personal property tax on firearms or ammunition; no limit on the number of firearms a person may own; no limit on the number of firearms a person may keep at home; no "arsenal license" required for storage of multiple firearms; no gun locks required by law; no state background check for firearm purchase; no regulation of private firearm sales between individuals; no legal duty to retreat or flee if attacked; no permits needed to operate a shooting range outside cities; no permit required to carry concealed weapons outside cities; no licenses, permits or registration to own machine guns; no licenses, permits or registration to own silencers; no restrictions on firearm type or caliber for general game hunting; no regulation of gun shows or firearm sales at gun shows; no permits for gun shows; virtually no restrictions to shooting on public or private lands outside cities.

Montana law has specifically addressed shooting ranges. Before discussing these laws, it may be helpful to define what constitutes a shooting range. A shooting range is a place where people shoot, and which may also have the advantage of a location which lends itself to, or has improvements that augment, safe shooting. There is no specific definition of a shooting range in Montana law. As with the other laws mentioned above which Montana does not have, this is not an oversight. It is because there is historically such a wide variety of places in Montana where people shoot that the term does not lend itself readily to definition. And, as with other items common in our culture, we know what it is, just as we know what the "Moon" is. A shooting range is a place where people shoot. While Black's Law Dictionary defines "shoot" (no surprise in that definition), it does not contain any definition of "shooting range".

To the extent that Montana law does address shooting ranges, the law is protective of shooting ranges. The Legislature has declared the public policy of protecting shooting range locations at 76-9-101, M.C.A. Recognizing that shooting makes noise, and recognizing a Montana cultural tolerance for noise from shooting, the Legislature has exempted shooting ranges from any state noise standards at 76-9-102, M.C.A.

How then are Montanans protected from possible abuses of the right to possess and use arms, which includes the right to shoot? While self defense is allowed, murder, assault and endangerment are punishable. While shooting outside city limits is allowed, shooting inside city limits is not, except for self defense or at an approved shooting range. While a person may be charged with disorderly conduct for firing firearms, application of that charge requires the charged person's intent to disturb the peace and riotous or tumultuous conduct, and such charge does not apply to firing at a shooting range.

So, while Montana law does place some restrictions on the use of firearms, and shooting on private property would be considered use of a firearm, these restrictions are few, and the restrictions existing deliberately do not include many restrictions that may be found in the laws of other states. Further, Montana laws are overtly protective of shooting and shooting ranges.

Property rights. What about property rights? More specifically, what about the property rights of a person who wishes to shoot on his private property versus the rights of a neighbor who doesn't understand or doesn't like shooting, or who is not acquainted with the shooting culture of Montana? What about the "corresponding responsibilities" for property rights mentioned in the Montana Constitution?

Certainly a property owners have a right to be safe on their property. There may be, however, a difference between actual safety and a perception of safety. With few exceptions, the law does not protect people from their perceptions, only from reality. The "corresponding responsibilities" of a property owner shooting on his property is to not place neighbors at risk of actual harm.

Any persons who don't understand shooting, or the culture of shooting in Montana, are referred to the "Code of the West", a caution adopted by a number of western counties, including Gallatin County of Montana. The Code warns newcomers wishing to locate in rural areas of the county not to assume that their rural road will be plowed immediately after every snowfall, that a farmer's field treatments may raise dust that will drift across the property line, that a rancher's cows may moo on the other side of the property-line fence all night, that if there is an emergency it may take an ambulance, fire truck or sheriff's deputy a while to respond, that rural areas may be subject to uncontrollable wildfires, and more. Basically, the Code declares, people living in rural areas are and must be more independent, self-regulating and tolerant of local practices and customs than their city-dwelling cousins. If it doesn't already, the Code ought to warn newcomers to rural lifestyle that rural neighbors commonly shoot in Montana.

Instead of causing fear, neighbors who shoot should give the newcomer the comfort of knowing that somebody nearby is in a position to be able to help defend the newcomer from a rabid animal, or the rare two-legged predator. It should also provide the newcomer an opportunity to learn something of the culture into which they have moved.

In response to one property owner's expressed concern about shooting on adjoining property as a part of hunting, the Legislature affirmed the right of property owners to hunt on their own land with 87-2-121, M.C.A.

Conclusion

A property owner in Montana clearly has the right to shoot on his own property, without interference from any government entity. This right is protected in several ways. Such property owner also has a responsibility to conduct his shooting in such a way that he does not carelessly put his neighbors at risk. This is both the law and culture in Montana.

[waksupi]

Shooting Range Protection Act

76-9-101. Policy. It is the policy of the state of Montana to provide for the health, safety, and welfare of the citizens of the state by promoting the safety and enjoyment of the shooting sports among the citizens of the state and by protecting the locations of and investment in shooting ranges for shotgun, archery, rifle, and pistol shooting.

76-9-102. Prohibitions. (1) Standards adopted by a state agency or unit of local government to limit levels of noise that may occur in the outdoor atmosphere may not apply to shooting ranges.
(2) Standards adopted by a state agency or unit of local government promulgated pursuant to Title 75 and concerning pollution by lead, copper, or brass may not limit or prohibit the operation of a shooting range because of lead, copper, or brass deposition resulting from shooting activities.

76-9-103. Planning -- effect on shooting ranges. The laws of this state concerning planning, master plans, or comprehensive plans may not be construed to authorize an ordinance, resolution, or rule that would:
(1) prevent the operation of an existing shooting range as a nonconforming use;
(2) prohibit the establishment of new shooting ranges, but it may regulate the construction of shooting ranges to specified zones; or
(3) prevent the erection or construction of safety improvements on existing shooting ranges.

76-9-104. Zoning -- effect on shooting ranges. A planning district master plan, recommendation, resolution, rule, or zoning designation may not:
(1) prevent the operation of an existing shooting range as a nonconforming use;
(2) prohibit the establishment of new shooting ranges, but it may regulate the construction of shooting ranges to specified zones; or
(3) prevent the erection or construction of safety improvements on existing shooting ranges.

76-9-105. Closure of shooting ranges -- limitations -- relocation cost. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), an established shooting range may not be prevented from operation by a state agency, unit of local government, or court unless the range presents a clear and provable safety hazard to the adjacent population.
(2) If a pressing public need exists because of incompatibility with nearby population or land use, an established shooting range may be relocated by an agency of state government, unit of local government, or court, but only if all of the following conditions are met:
(a) pressing public need is documented through hearings, testimony, and a clear and precise statement of need by the agency, unit of local government, or court involved;
(b) the agency or unit of local government obtaining the closure pays the appraised cost of the land together with improvements to the operators of the shooting range. In return the shooting range operators shall relinquish their interest in the property to the agency or unit of local government obtaining the closure.
(3) If a shooting range presents a clear and provable safety hazard to adjacent population, the range may be suspended from operation if:
(a) reasonable notice and opportunity to respond are afforded the range operators; and
(b) reasonable opportunity is afforded the range operators to correct any safety defects.

[waksupi]

Overview of Montana state firearms laws.

http://www.mtssa.org/mtlaws.phtml?code=45-3-101+M.C.A.

[Pavogrande]

Lead wheel weights are also no more in the golden state -- Unfortunately any state with large metropolitan areas will soon have these same restrictions --

[Leadforbrains]

I hate to wish for the extinction of a certain species....... Condor soup anyone?

[Bullshop]

Put that 338egde to work on um.
BIC/BS

[35remington]

If Montana gets enough West Coasters migrating to its confines, look for them to try to change both Montana culture and law.

There's nothing sacred about shooting that a liberal, high density population won't try to banish.

My take is that we need to keep them city folks in the city.

[jleneave]

I firmly believe that the biggest threat to the 2nd Amendment is going to come from the Health & Welfare end of Govt. They will exploit lead as a known health hazard. Most likely we will see a TAX before we see an all out ban.

The Cali idiots have invaded Montana as well. I have them all around me. I've got an out of State summer resident with a summer home near my east property line. He has called the SO to complain about my shooting SEVERAL times this past summer. Each time the Deputies told him I'm well within my rights.

The last complaint he inquired about LEAD falling on his property. So the handwriting may be on the wall as to his next move.

I feel that eacch and every one of us should do our best to enroll new NRA Members to swell the membership to the 20 or 30 million mark. I think the NRA is our BEST hope.

FN in MT

I whole heartedly agree that the NRA is probably one of the best ways to protect our 2nd amendment RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS! I used to be of the mindset that my one membership would not make or break the ability of the NRA to protect my rights as a firearm owner. It was easier and cheaper for me just to sit back and let all the others fight for my RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. I was a NRA member a couple years ago, but let my membership expired because I got tired of all the calls from the NRA soliciting money from me that I did not have to spare. Thanks to a member on this site (jack19512) I rejoined the NRA and I am glad that I did. Thanks jack19512!! Here are the posts that made me see the error of my ways:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=26201
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=26381

I have a family of 6 that moved here from Chicago, IL living next to me. One of the boys, a 14 year old, became interested in guns and hunting, so anytime I was shooting I invited him over and let him shoot some of my guns. Now he has been bitten by the bug and his parents purchased him a .22 rifle. I have taken him squirrel hunting on several occasions. This past November he decided that he wanted to give deer hunting a try. I haven’t deer hunted in over 15 years, but a buddy of mine gave me permission to take him to his farm and let us hunt from a “deer house” just behind his house. I have severe back problems and am unable to traipse through the woods and climb up in deer stands like I could when I was younger so this arrangement was perfect. The opening weekend we, or I should say he, shot a 10 point buck. The buck had a 15” inside spread and dressed at 164lbs, a very nice deer. To say he was excited is an understatement. I captured his kill for him on video and now he can relive it anytime he wants. His mother came over not long ago and thanked me for being a positive influence in his life. I was a little caught off guard because I never would have thought that I had any kind of influence over him. She said that his school grades have much improved and he is no longer getting into trouble for fighting in school and to top it off he now is interested in becoming a LE officer. He now comes over and helps me out around the house when there are things that I can’t do myself due to my back. His younger sister is also showing an interest in shooting. This year for Christmas I am going to pay a NRA membership for him. I would like to see everyone who can, pay a NRA membership for someone and like FN from MT said, let’s swell the NRA membership!! With this past election the NRA is going to need all the help it can get.

Sorry for such a long rambling post, but this is something that I have become passionate about. Thanks for reading.

Jody

[targetshootr]

The lead restrictions law had no scientific basis at all.
I didn't understand the fuss until I saw a program on Nat Geographic not long ago that mentioned it in passing. Apparently those birds will eat anything and when they die from lead poisoning it's not a pretty sight according to the ranger. Aside from the fact that there aren't many of them left.

What's funny is how much Elmer Keith disliked brown eagles and shot 'em every chance he got. lol.

[FN in MT]

I have also given away several NRA memberships since the election. THREE this past week. They make great gifts to young shooters and hunters.

FN in MT

[Fleataxi]

Newtire: I don't see what the big deal is - the Condor is an ugly scavenger - kind of like Lawyers...

Maybe that's why they're so popular?

My suggestion would be to douse the stupid birds with kerosene, light a match and be done with them.

Fleataxi

[kingstrider]

Sadly I can see this BS spreading like cancer to other states.

[Cloudpeak]

I think it's great that they're on the way to banning lead in CA. It's obvious to me after years of watching the antics of many CA residents and their elected representatives that they ate waaay too many lead paint chips as kids.

I think they should outlaw lead 100% in CA. No more car batteries will have them all on foot. Think of all the green house emissions we'd no longer have. Not using lead shields when going to the dentist would mean, eventually, they'd all be sterile thus putting a stop to the rampant re-breeding of wacko leftists. (Sorry for the redundancy).

Cloudpeak

[dominicfortune00]

It's gonna be kinda hard to really ban lead in CA when you can find it naturally occurring with gold, silver and mica in the northern part of the state.

[nscob]

The article I read and people I chose to believe stated that no condors have been recorded dying from ingesting lead carcass'.Just like MAN made global warming it is fabricated and designed to separate us American from our dollars so we can be equally disadvantage like some other countries.

[pps]

The green fruitbats haven't limited themselves to hunting--there is a serious move afoot to block all trout planting in the Sierras due to trout eating some endangered amphibian's tadpoles. Do a web search on "Center for Biological Diversity" to get a glimpse of idiocy that will turn your stomach.

9.3, not to far from your neck of the woods, my grandfather had a little bar/general store in Quaking Aspen. The store closed when the greenies got logging stopped in the southern Sierra. When the "Golden Trout Wilderness Area" was established, in an area where there were not many lakes above 10000ft where Goldens thrive. Well, the forest service sprayed rotenone into the Kern river tributaries to kill off the brookies and German Browns then plant Golden Trout...you can guess what happened....bloop right to the top. I hate idiots.:twisted:

[Paul B]

After 29 years of trying, I finally drew a coveted buck tag to hunt the Kaibab national Forest north of the Grand Canyon. When the tag came in the mail, I was asked to voluntarily be a 'good guy" and use all copper bullets durig my hunt as the Kaibab is considered to be part of the condor flyway. The state was even willing to give me free of charge two boxes of premium factory ammo for the hunt or one free box of bullets if I preferred to handload my ammo. Well, the hunt was a bust due to circumstances beyond my control but the copper bullets shot well.
Now I have hunted the Kaibab before a few times with doe cull hunt tags and not once, let me repeat that, NOT ONCE have I ever seen a condor in that area.
A few weeks back, I was talking to a fellow hunter at church and he said a Game Warden had told him Arizona was going to go all copper next year. I see someone posted that the people have spoken and that it won't happen. Methinks I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one.
I read on another site that one of the northern tier states noted for big game hunting is considering going all copper because they found a grizzly bear that supposedly died of lead poisoning. I wouldn't be surprised at all if all copper bullets become the rule nation wide in the not too very distant future. it works very well into the hands of ther antis, both anti-gun and anti0hunting. Ammo with copper bullets is very expensive so many hunters will just quit. Even those that handload will balk at the higher prices and many will drop out. 'What? Nobody's hunting anymore? Well if that's the case, turn in those guns. You don't need them any more." That may not be as far fetched as one might think. Back door gun control is what I call it.
If the people of Arizona stopped the copper bullet thing for next year, what makes anyone think they won't try again the year after that, and the year after that one until they are successful?
Paul B.

[Swamprat1052]

Paul B, thats exactly what this is about, its sure not about Condors. The DF&G fought that bill as hard as hunters did. The biologists told the legislature that there definitly wasnt any proof or evidence that lead bullets were a problem. Its just another way to stop hunting and shooting. I didnt work with me, I like the Barnes Bullets. I am using them now in the areas not in the ban. My rifles shoot really well with them and we have killed several coyotes with
them (thats about all I hunt anymore) and they die immediately without a lot of pelt damage. For long range hunting I dont use cast anyway. And so far they havent banned them from the range.

Swamprat

[madsenshooter]

Anyone tried casting with tin/antimony/copper babbitt? I imagine one would need to use a hollowpoint to get any sort of terminal performance from them, but it's a possibility perhaps.