45 colt destroyed

[flyingmonkey35]

I was out in the desert shooting my Ubriti cattleman 1873 colt.

When this happened.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/27/ygunu4a3.jpg

It appear s the cylinder broke in half.

Barrel is empty no bulging present

I was shooting reloads. 45 lc 200 grn swc PC. 6.4 grains of IMR BP

This happened after round 80.

No one was hurt. Just my pride.

Thoughts?

I plan on giving Uberti a call to see if they want to test it and the metal

[flyingmonkey35]

Oh this has less the 1k rounds down it.

[enfield]

you meant to say, most of the cases had 6.4 grains of IMR BP in them.

[CastingFool]

That's a bummer, glad you weren't hurt.

[DeanWinchester]

Double charge?

[flyingmonkey35]

While a double charge is always possible . that wold have put at at 13 grns. Max for this was 9. That would put this at a over charge

[country gent]

Several things could have happened here. 1) a double charge of powder, 2) a timing issue where the cylinder wasnt fully alighned with the barrel, 3) an under charge leaving a bullet in the bore ( normally bursts or bulges the barrel tough.
Did anything seem odd or diffrent on the rounds before this on or this one light report recoil or excessive report and recoil? Larger than normal muzzle flash? Were the rounds grouping accuratly up to this point? Anything that stands out or seems unussual during this session.

[flyingmonkey35]

Not really.

I was shooting at a duleling tree. About 25 feet 6 in plates and hitting more then missing. Nothing felt odd at all.

Even the last shot was a bit more of a boom then normal. But not handnumbing or anything. You can see that the two rounds next to it were shredded but did not fire.

One still had the projectile still In place.

I searched but could not find the top half of the cylinder.

If you guys want close ups let me know.

Should I bother calling Uberti? The gun is only 4 months old.

[country gent]

Yes contact uberti I would e-mail rather than call. Include the pictures and all pertinent information. There may be an issue with the cylinders also. Give them all the info including number of rounds thru the firearm. Flutes cut to deep or off center could result in a thin cylinder wall. There are several issues that could affect this. Include fiorearms serial number as this will allow them to track what stock was used and records checked on materials.

[flyingmonkey35]

Thanks, I'll post relpys

[DeanWinchester]

Not sure I'd mention they were reloads unless I had to.

[John Boy]

How many reloads on the case in the picture?
May want to look at the case for indication of weak brass because of the separation below the web

Did you find the bullet from the exploded case?

[flyingmonkey35]

Nope. Couldn't find it.

[flyingmonkey35]

Unknown for brass reloading times. I inspect each piece before

[DeanWinchester]

Crazy question but....it didn't happen to be a ballon head case??

[JHeath]

Hmmm . . . probably a multiple charge overpressure caused by concentrating 5 loaded chambers into a posting on the single-shot forum.

[rondog]

Did you say that was black powder? Is that what BP means? I thought I'd read you could pretty much use compressed loads with that in .45C, but I've never loaded any .45C with black powder.

[M-Tecs]

Did you say that was black powder? Is that what BP means? I thought I'd read you could pretty much use compressed loads with that in .45C, but I've never loaded any .45C with black powder.

http://www.imrpowder.com/pb.html

PBNamed for the porous base structure of its grains by which the burning rate is controlled, PB is an extremely clean-burning single-base powder. It gives very low pressure in 12 and 20 ga. shotshell target loads and performs well in a wide variety of handgun loads

[flyingmonkey35]

Corect IMR BP. Ball powder. Smokeless

[flyingmonkey35]

Dang it pb peanut butter.

[freebullet]

O my. I'm glad your ok, and thank you for sharing the pics & experience.

Did you charge the cases from a loading block?

What type of press if not a single stage?

I know of a gentleman that blew up a new Browning high power within 22 hours of owning it. He shot some unknown source reloads. He sent the gun to Browning, they gave him an estimate to fix it for 200$ more than a new one. He pleaded with them and they wound up selling him a new one at dealer cost. They kept his old one for display. Their best guess was a squib load.

[Ben]

flyingmonkey35

Can you show us a photo of the can that this IMR BP Ball Powder Smokeless came out of that you describe ?

If your powder was indeed PB, it is not a Ball Powder, it is an extruded , single base powder .

[M-Tecs]

Over the years I have seen several colt and colt clones come apart just like that. On some the topstrap is totally gone. Most of them have been suspected double charges but one was factory load so double charging shouldn’t have been an issue. The easy answer is always it’s a double charge but I am not sure that is always true.



Even the last shot was a bit more of a boom then normal. Butnot handnumbing or anything. You can see that the two rounds next to it wereshredded but did not fire.


Louder could be just the extra gasses but if it kicked more than normal that would seem to indicate an overcharge.

[flyingmonkey35]

Kick was gun going kaboom!

[rondog]

OK, didn't know this was smokeless. The original post says "BP", and I know loading .45C with black powder is common, so I just thought......

I shouldn't try to think.....

[flyingmonkey35]

Lee loadmaster.

For colt brass I do it in two stages.

I deprime / clean / handprime

Then load starting with powder. Bullet. Factory crimp.

[M-Tecs]

Some interesting pics and discussion of blow ups here

http://www.iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9709

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-31776.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=440917

http://www.adjunct.diodon349.com/attack_on_usa/dont_let_this_happen_to_you_guns_should_not_blow_u p.htm

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382585

[DeanWinchester]

I'm with Ben, can you elaborate a bit on this powder? A picture is worth a thousand words.

[flyingmonkey35]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/27/5unepu8e.jpg

[Bullshop Junior]

Did you use IMR PB data? It is not the same powder, I don't believe.

[flyingmonkey35]

Close ups

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/27/ma2asane.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/27/y2a8emyn.jpg

[CBMC]

Did you use IMR PB data? It is not the same powder, I don't believe.

I thought it was the same (or at least very similar). Just imr started putting their name on it at some point. I obviously could be wrong though.

[flyingmonkey35]

This where I got me load data.


http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol?&CartridgeName=45+Colt&OrderBW%5B%5D=200&Manufacturer%5B%5D=IMR&Powder%5B%5D=PB

[Bullshop Junior]

IMR had it first. IMR had it befor hodgdon bought them out.

[M-Tecs]

PB was first Dupont than IMR. I didn't know Hodgdon was labeling it now. PB meant 'porous base'.

[Bullshop Junior]

I'm guessing a double charge. How do you charge your cases?

[freebullet]

An rcbs lock out die is a good investment. Never been a fan of lee products to dispense powder.

Had you checked the bore for leading prior to the kaboom? Reason i ask is I had a leading problem that would turn smooth bore in 6 shots. If a guy were to continue shooting with such a load it could eventually get ugly. The cause of that horrific leading was over crimping. You could pull a boolit and measure it.

[flyingmonkey35]

If you go to imr website it redirect s you to hodgen

[freebullet]

Wonder if you had a squib followed by a double.

[flyingmonkey35]

I'm willing to go with overcharged. Or a weak Case. Or both the barrel is a bit dirty no worse then any other day of shooting. PC boolits is all I've shot out of this gun and have seen no leading.


I'll give urbiti a call tomorrow and see if they want it back for testing.

They have a YouTube video of them making this gun. They test all guns with a triple load before shipping.

[freebullet]

Pc as in powder coated?

[flyingmonkey35]

Powder coat HF red yellow mix

[Dryball]

That cylinder metal looks pretty granulated.

[M-Tecs]

Weak cases don't blow revolvers up. Autos with unsupported chambers are a different matter. SAAMI max for 45 Colt is 14,000

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

http://www.shootersforum.com/handgun-cartridges/30815-pressures-45-colt-44-magnum-357-magnum.html

[flyingmonkey35]

How its made.

Uberti colt 45



http://youtu.be/qYOJa8ZNxmE

[freebullet]

I've had wild powdercoating build up aswell. No lead with it and nothing that would cause kaboom.

[M-Tecs]

The three times normal pressure proof load is BS. The SAMMI for 44 mag is 36,000 PSI. 36,000 times 3 = 108,000 PSI. In a 45 Colt 14,000 x 3 = 42,000 PSI. Ruger BH or RH yes but a Colt clone no. Hot Ruger only loads will take them apart. The Itallian proof houses if I remember correctly use 1.5 X service pressure loads so for 45 Colt proof pressure would have been 14,000 + 7,000 = 21,000 psi.

[texassako]

I think you may want to go back and double check your load data. The 6.4 gr you used is the start load listed for a LRNFP. Lyman lists a start load of 7.7gr of PB for the 452460 SWC. I don't know if it would be the difference, but you said is was a swc and Lyman shows it would be an undercharge.

[freebullet]

The three times normal pressure proof load is BS. The SAMMI for 44 mag is 36,000 PSI. 36,000 times 3 = 108,000 PSI. In a 45 Colt 14,000 x 3 = 42,000 PSI. Ruger yes but a Colt clone no. Hot Ruger only loads will take them apart. The Itallian proof houses if I remember correctly use 1.5 X service pressure loads so for 45 Colt proof pressure would have been 14.000 + 7.000 = 21.000 psi.

I found the 3x proof claim odd also. You don't hear claims more than 2x proof much. There ain't anywhere near the amount of metal on that clone as a gp100.

[fouronesix]

For what it's worth, IMO, too much pressure. Looks identical to several gross overcharges/double charges in various revolvers I've inspected- no matter the powder. Does not look like squib followed by normal firing.

The only other VERY REMOTE possibility considering the PB powder, that comes to mind, would be a SEE/ stop-start-stop scenario. Those start-stop-start type SEEs in revolvers usually associated with weak primers, slow ball powders, contaminated powders, cold temps. PB powder is not known as a culprit for this type SEE.

[6bg6ga]

Its tough to see a gun destroyed and tougher yet when its your own. Seeing this make s me not want to shoot the Colt clone that I just repaired that belonged to my father when he was alive or the S&W 25-5 that I purchased at the last gun show. After seeing this I can't even get myself to finish reloading the 45LC brass that is waiting in my tote.106232

[Goatwhiskers]

Flyingmonkey, re: post #6. A max charge is not the maximum amount that will fit in the case as your post would imply. It is the maximum amount of powder of a particular burning rate that is safe to use in a particular cartridge with a particular bullet. You could easily, and probably did, have a double charge of powder in that case, the symptoms are correct for that scenario. I'm pretty darn sure you will be on your own when the factory finds out you were shooting reloads. Suggestion: change your procedures to make sure that never happens again. GW

[Doc_Stihl]

What would that revolver have to look like for someone to say, "That metal was weak" or "Obvious failure of the firearm?"

[Cactus Farmer]

Hmmm . . . probably a multiple charge overpressure caused by concentrating 5 loaded chambers into a posting on the single-shot forum.

It's a single shot now. I see these often enough to think that fast burning powders in big cases,where a double load isn't all that visible even when you look in the cases, is a really BAD idea. The last one was a 44mag Ruger with a pop gun load, according to it's owner. So even the highly touted
Rugers are capable of failing if the ammo maker has his wheels up while landing.

[Bonz]

The most important thing is that no one was hurt...

[flyingmonkey35]

I did mention that even though I use a progressive press I only do one case at a time for the lc. Again not saying a double charge is impossible just unlikely

[Finarfin]

Texassako made a good point above, what do you think?

[flyingmonkey35]

Just got off the phone with Uberti.

They want the gun back for investigation. If no warranty defect found they will send it to the ammunition manufacture in this case me.

5-6 week turnaround.

Will post results.

[bedbugbilly]

Glad you didn't get hurt! I imagine that it was quite a surprise to say the least.

I'm thinking a possible double charge? If you had a squib, if it was part way dan the barrel, you should have had barrel damage. If it was just past the forcing cone, it still seems like there would be more damage at the barrel breech? Pretty easy to be a "arm chair quarterback" though.

The 1st thing to remember is that even though the pistol is fairly new - it can be replaced. Your hands, fingers, eyes, etc. can't be. We're all just glad you're O.K.

2nd - Don't feel foolish - feel happy you weren't hurt. It could be the pistol itself - some good comments in regards to possible cylinder flaws, etc. - or it could be a double charge - or ???. And chances are - you might never know. Uberti sure needs to know about it though so IF there is a problem, they can address it and follow up on it. I have a feeling they'll want you to ship it to them so they can take a look at it. What the outcome is, is anybody's guess.

I have had one squib, which fortunately I was paying attention and I caught it (in my Smith Model 36). As soon as it happened, I had a flashback to when I was loading the batch of cartridges and my wife interrupted me - it was my fault. I should have dumped everything and started over - sure taught me a lesson!)

Good luck and let us know how it all irons out for you. A shame but again, you are alright and that's the important thing. And trust me . . . . you're "learning experience" is also "our learning experience". Good luck!

[MT Chambers]

Large case+small charge of fast burning powder+Lee progressive(or any other progressive)=KABOOM (sooner or later)!

[rondog]

The most important thing is that no one was hurt...

Indeed! Bottom line, right there.....

[flyingmonkey35]

Update.

Looky what landed in my range bag.


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/28/y2epa8up.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/28/uqyzuqu2.jpg

This is what's left of the case that was fired. You can tell as its the only sherded case with a fired primer.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/28/y8u6evu3.jpg


Hoo boy. That's a mess

Uberti wants the gun back for investigation.

They states if its their fault its under warranty. If its the ammo it heads off to ammo manufacturer. In this case Me.



Shipping back to them tomorrow.

[Quiettime]

Update.


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/28/y2epa8up.jpg


Wow, you would expect the primer to be flatter wouldn't you? A lesson for those who judge pressure by looking at primers. It don't always work!

[flyingmonkey35]

Oh thank you all for the advice.

I had to compelty disaamble the gun and use a woddend hammer to gentaly tap the cylinder out as it still had live round in it.


Yes I pulled the remain ing rounds .

No other double charges.

I'm thinking that may be the culprit.

Going to sell the rest of the cases on eflay. To jewelry makers. As I no longer trust em.

I may be done with long colt all together. And just buy me a 9mm ruger vaquero.

Forgive the spelling I'm on my phone.

[freebullet]

I would pull ALL the boolits that remain from that batch and weigh each charge. You may be surprised what you find.

[John Boy]

Wow, you would expect the primer to be flatter wouldn't you? A lesson for those who judge pressure by looking at primers. It don't always work! In a rifle yes - in a revolver no. Take a look at the depth of the firing pin strike (it's a crater) on the primer where it was blown back against the hammer. Then look at the case - it is shattered at the web, the thickest part of the casing all the way up to the rim. It was an overcharge IMO that fractured the cylinder walls and ignited the next 2 rounds

Moot point of how much of an overcharge - the cylinder and the cases tell the story

[flyingmonkey35]

I would pull ALL the boolits that remain from that batch and weigh each charge. You may be surprised what you find.

Done, the rest in the batch were all normal

[smkummer]

You don't have to be done reloading 45 Colt. If you use trail boss powder as many cowboy action shooters do, it is so bulky that even if you fill the case with just enough room for the bullet, the powder manufacture states you should not harm your gun. The main thing here was that no one was hurt, including bystanders. While a lot of us here have not done this, we all learn from this. You could ask Uberti if they would use the usable parts and rebuild your gun. Then in a way, you somewhat have your gun back. As a manufacturer, they can replace the frame with the same serial number within ATF regulations, I don't know about Italy though.

[flyingmonkey35]

Gun is on its way back to bernaili.

I'll keep y'all posted .

Off to my next project.

[freebullet]

Lock out die from rcbs.

[woodbutcher]

[smilie=b: Ohhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyy.What a mess.Glad that no one was hurt.That will definitely make a feller call for a change of wardrobe.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[swheeler]

IMR PB Porous base;)

[TCLouis]

Large case+small charge of fast burning powder+Lee progressive(or any other progressive)=KABOOM (sooner or later)!


Been there done that.

My fault too.

[flyingmonkey35]

I have heard back from Uberti.

"Something in the gun blew it up."

That's all they would say.

When I asked if they could do any thing. He told me NO.

I got the impression of go piss up a rope.

No ship something blew it up. I doubt they went beyond opening the box.

Sigh.

I will be parting it out when I get it back.

[jonp]

"Something in the gun blew it up"???? Heck, I could have told you that. Heck, you told them that. Not much help there.

[Idz]

Too bad about your revolver. I'm curious about the statement bashing Lee progressive presses. With the pro-1000 I can't see how you can get a double charge without having obvious multiple mechanical failures. The case ratchets to to next position after being charged and you would have to manually remove it and relocate it to get charged twice. How do you do get the press to fail and give a double charge?

[flyingmonkey35]

The only way to do it is a short pull.

[flyingmonkey35]

Or it doesn't auto index.

[flyingmonkey35]

I have a feeling I could have hand loaded each round . and weighed each charge. While video taping it and they would have gave me the same answer.

[Springfield]

I load smokeless 45 Colts for my wife and kids, so it is Trailboss all the way, just no way to double charge. I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I caused them to be harmed. I load on a 550 so it is possible to double charge, but I have an LED light shining on the cases and I look at every one( I think), but the TB gives me an extra layer of security. I use other powders for my wifes 9mm but again it is a bulky powder that won't double. The only gun I ever blew up was my Webley Bulldog, and that was with the proper cartridge loaded by Fiocchi. Shoulda stuck with my own cut-down loaded lite shells, they seemed to work fine.

[Deep Six]

I let a buddy load 45 Colt once - load was 14 gr Blue Dot. It was his first time loading on a progressive. I weighed all one hundred rounds when he was done - one weighed about 14 more than the others. I pulled it apart and sure enough, 28 grains of blue dot in there. That probably would have been enough to blow up a large frame Blackhawk. Very lucky I caught that one. That was on a Hornady LNL with auto-index. I think it happened when he was going 1 at a time to get the powder measure dialed in. He must have pulled the case out to weigh the charge and put it back in the shell plate one position behind so it got charged twice. Again very lucky.

The OP's pictures also show how valuable wearing protective eyewear can be.

[Maximumbob54]

I see the Hornady stamp on that case. Are the cases all the same? If so are they the correct length? I ask because if I'm not mistaken the Hornady ammo with the FTX bullets use a shorter than normal case. I have not a clue as to the increase in pressure you would get from what at a glance looks like an eighth inch shorter case. It may have held up to the abuse until it finally let go. That's if the shorter cases were being used of course. I had one of those cases slip into my .45 Colt brass collection and I didn't notice it until I went to seat the bullet and the mouth wasn't opened at all. Then the powder charge was light because the case activation hardly worked. I've been eagle eye with my .45 Colt brass ever since.

[flyingmonkey35]

Most of my cases were hornady. I bought them new.

[John Boy]

I have heard back from Uberti.
"Something in the gun blew it up."
That's all they would say.
When I asked if they could do any thing. He told me NO.
I got the impression of go piss up a rope.

flyingmonkey - What did you expect, a brand new revolver? I would have been embarrassed to send it to them if it were mine

Might want to stop moaning and whimpering because all indications the issue is the fault of the owner - not a defect with the revolver. And the pictures you posted of the cases is proof positive the cylinder throats were the victim of the charge of powder in the case
Suck it up, be thankful no one was maimed and move on .... might want to frame the revolver over your reloading bench as a reminder!

[Joe504]

[QUOTE=John Boy;2809316]flyingmonkey - What did you expect, a brand new revolver? I would have been embarrassed to send it to them if it were mine

-----

And here we have one of the basic problems of not being face to face. I don't think the OP was looking for sympathy from us, or a replacement from Uberti. I think he just wanted a definite answer as to what happened. I think he is just as incredulous as any of us would be. Our first reaction would be, "How did that happen? " In the first post he lists as much info as he could and is presumably doing so to see if any of us could help him figure out what went wrong.

Of course, I could very well be wrong also.

[Doc_Stihl]

And here we have one of the basic problems of not being face to face. I don't think the OP was looking for sympathy from us, or a replacement from Uberti. I think he just wanted a definite answer as to what happened. I think he is just as incredulous as any of us would be. Our first reaction would be, "How did that happen? " In the first post he lists as much info as he could and is presumably doing so to see if any of us could help him figure out what went wrong.

Of course, I could very well be wrong also.

That's just how I read it.

[seaboltm]

I have double charged on my Lee Loadmaster many times, but I have always caught it. Something will happen that breaks the cycle, like a primer mishap or an case feed mishap, and I have to stop and fix the problem. If the problem is fixed without indexing the press, the next pull of the handle will throw another charge. No big deal, I am aware that I broke the cycle so I simply don't seat a bullet and catch the double charged case on the last station. I also make it a habit to look into each case before seating a bullet.

[45 2.1]

The only gun I ever blew up was my Webley Bulldog, and that was with the proper cartridge loaded by Fiocchi.

I saw a Fiocchi round do the same thing to an old Bulldog. Things like that happen.


[QUOTE=John Boy;2809316]flyingmonkey - What did you expect, a brand new revolver? I would have been embarrassed to send it to them if it were mine

-----

And here we have one of the basic problems of not being face to face. I don't think the OP was looking for sympathy from us, or a replacement from Uberti. I think he just wanted a definite answer as to what happened. I think he is just as incredulous as any of us would be. Our first reaction would be, "How did that happen? " In the first post he lists as much info as he could and is presumably doing so to see if any of us could help him figure out what went wrong.

Of course, I could very well be wrong also.

Guys, this sport doesn't have someone looking over your shoulder to keep everything between the lines. There are procedures to keep you from doing bad things to yourself or your equipment ............................................... USE THEM.............................................. . and pay attention to what you are doing.

[Love Life]

Good to hear that you were not hurt.

[flyingmonkey35]

Y
flyingmonkey - What did you expect, a brand new revolver? I would have been embarrassed to send it to them if it were mine

Might want to stop moaning and whimpering because all indications the issue is the fault of the owner - not a defect with the revolver. And the pictures you posted of the cases is proof positive the cylinder throats were the victim of the charge of powder in the case
Suck it up, be thankful no one was maimed and move on .... might want to frame the revolver over your reloading bench as a reminder!

John Boy.

I do not believe I have come off as whiney.

Per advise on this forum. I choose to call Uberti. They requested it back for inspection. I did not force the issue.

I was just a bit shocked at the borderline rudeness of the tech who called me.

Did I ask for a replacement no. Did I ask for a discount . no

Nor did he offer me a cost of Fixing it.

Just told me it blew up. And I'm sending it back. Then got very abrupt when asked a question.

I fix multimillion dollar computers every day. Where minutes of down time cost millions of dollars.

If I did that to one of my customers I would be fired so fast it would make my head spin.

Yes we have warrantied obvious damage to the equipment.


So I expect the best out of company's and there employees as that is what I give.

And you should to.

[flyingmonkey35]

One other thing I have never stated that this wasn't my fault.

I question. I examine. I take responsibility for what I did.

I am not embarrassed by it. Nor do I hide it out of shame of messing up.


I learned from it and hopefully others have as well.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Nasty things besides a double-charge can happen when a large volume case like the 45 Colt is matched with a fast burning powder. I know 'cause I've been there' (well, actually it was my dad, but that's another story) and here's why: Seating depth!

According to QuickLoad, loading a 45 Colt with a 200 grain SWC boolit over six grains of Bullseye will put the load in the 8.500 psi range - well within the 14.000 SAAMI specs. Now pushing the boolit back to remove any air space in the case will almost quadruple the pressure to 32.000 psi - that's even slightly more than a double-charge with normal seating depth would produce and well into 44 Mag country!

Unfortunately IMR BP is not in QuickLoad's data base so I can't give you the exact numbers, but it is obvious that a boolit moving back due to recoil can drastically increase pressure.

[fouronesix]

I don't have Quick Load but over charges are over charges- no matter the load density. PB is not known as a squirrely powder, so I still suspect simple over charge in the case of the OP.

High density fast powders like Bullseye are easier to overload or double charge. Low density fast powders like Trailboss are harder to overload or double charge. So powder burn speed alone is not the only criteria for greater potential of over pressure. The same would hold true for large capacity cases like the 45 Colt, which by their design, have a greater potential for over charge.

In a revolver, I don't believe load density would be the problem, as recoil tends to "pull" the bullets out thus increasing loaded case volume. Just the opposite is true for tube mag guns, semi auto handguns, heavy recoil magazine guns, etc. where the potential exists for pushing bullets in because of chambering or recoil inertia thus decreasing loaded case volume.

[MtGun44]

Occam's Razor = double charge.

Sad to say, THE most common reloading failure, usually happens to pistols because they have room for
two normal charges. Could happen with extremely reduced charges in rifles like 10 gr Unique, but not
with normal rifle powders - no room.

So far, I have done it ONCE. Fortunately, it was a 1911 and it took it well. Grip replacement and a
new mag and the gun has been in fine service for 30+ years since. I caught one the other day,
got my rhythm screwed up and was watching closely - and there it was. . . . . . I look at EVERY
charge before I put the bullet on. It has been many years since I caught one.

Bill

[flyingmonkey35]

Final word

Its hard to read.

Condition received --- Poor ... Firearm has Catostrophic incident top strap has bowed upwards & cylinder has been blown apart.

6-5-14. Gun has been blown up by overcharged ammo.
RO spoke with customer, customer was using reloads Not warranty. Marked unsafe to fire. Sent back to customer.


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/12/quryhava.jpg

Their we have it folks.


Thanks all lesson learned. Weigh your loaded rounds when using large cases with small loads.

[Maximumbob54]

Wow, is that just sad to look at though. :(

[Springfield]

Weighing you loaded rounds will probably not help. Try weighing your bullets one day. Do they vary more than 3 grains? Same for your brass, does it vary more than 3 grains? So if you get a light bullet with some light brass, you could have 6 grains more powder than you think you do and it will weigh out fine. Try it.

[DeanWinchester]

'Unsafe to fire'. Wow. Bet that took a college educated engineer to deduce that.

[OuchHot!]

I am really sorry that you went through this and I respect that you could post it here. It is a good reminder for all of us what can happen. One thing, for sure; frame that sucker and hang it on the wall. It is one heck of a keepsake! Jeesalloo, I am glad you were not hurt!

[John Boy]

6-5-14. Gun has been blown up by overcharged ammo.
RO spoke with customer, customer was using reloads Not warranty. Marked unsafe to fire. Sent back to customer.Officially concluded in writing by Uberti - Presume this ends the thread

[Doc_Stihl]

I still would like to know what that pistol would have had to look like for someone to say. "BAD METAL" or "The Pistol Failed".
It's easy to blame the ammo when there's NO way to rule it out after the fact.

[DeanWinchester]

Gotta wonder what they would have said had you not told them you were shooting reloads.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/88A840C9F95788A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/2FC3C32627AA38A/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/15265F9E783B1F1/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/10A79A43D6A783D/standard.jpg

I did this through not paying attention, and thinking I was a very safe reloader. This happened maybe 20 years ago and was the result of a double charge of IMR 4227 under the Lyman 311284. The rifle was a nice old Springfield NRA Sporter. The only thing left of value was the trigger guard and buttplate. No one was hurt so all turned out okay considering the alternatives. If me showing this photo, same as the OP being man enough to display his, and it prevents this from happening to anyone else it will be time well spent. In case anyone is interested, the 218gr Lyman slug tripped the PACT Chrono at a tad over 3,000 fps.


.................Buckshot

[Piedmont]

These threads always make me want to load a powder that fills over half the case.

Then the cheapskate in me takes over and I buy more fast burning stuff. Hope it doesn't turn out to be expensive in the long run.

[John Boy]

These threads always make me want to load a powder that fills over half the case.
Start shooting black powder! In a 45 Colt, 30 -35grs of powder looks like Mt Everest in the case! Double charge and the spilled powder will be all over the press and on your loading bench ... especially using a progress press like a Dillon. Yep, I use a 550B for my BP reloads
Plus ... original gunpowder is a weak powder! One can compress the powder column to the lips like a brick and you'll have heavier recoil but NEVER will your firearm be damaged

[oldred]

And besides that it's just plain fun!!!! :mrgreen:

[jeepyj]

Thank you for sharing. A very good reminder how quickly things can change. Posts like this help all who read them stay sharp. I'm oh so glad there were no injuries.
Jeepyj

[doc1876]

OMG! Well all I can and will say is I also thank you for sharing, and for the education here. I am glad you and none of yours were hurt, but please don't give up on the LC, it is a great gun.

as to the weigh cases comment, I weigh all of my reloads, cases, bullets, charges, knowing the numbers will be different, I weigh whole match, and am still afraid of an over charge. Yes it takes all day, but I have today, might not have tomorrow.

[doc1876]

is this the same gun with the timing issue about a month ago? could that have been the real culprit again?

[beezapilot]

I recently acquired a Uberti .45 Cattleman, took it apart & cleaned it well. I noticed on reassembly that the cylinder seemed out of time, played around with it a bit and noted that (unlike the Blackhawks) the cylinder pin did not lock positively into the frame- it seemed as though there was a "stop" when it was dang near seated all the way, but allowed the cylinder to turn but mis-time, then a second stop when the pin was all the way in that removed all the slop and allowed the cylinder to fully engage the locking mechanism. Just a thought....

[Idz]

I was trying to figure out how to get a double charge on my Lee pro-1000 progressive and was unable too until I found one of my Pro-Auto-Disk powder measures was loose enough to reset itself from its own weight. Then by retracting the ram about 1/3 stroke and extending it again I could get a double charge. My fix was easy, simply prevent the auto-disk from resetting itself.
I made a spring clip that catches and holds the powder lever. Then since the Lee rest chain often got tangled and broke I replaced it with a bent coat hanger. Finally since the autodisk and bullet feeder interfere I made a new bracket and moved the autodisk actuator over to where the primer lockout screw is. Now without breaking something on the press I can't get a double-charge. I still have a light so I can visually check the charge as I place the bullet.

[bbqncigars]

It's great that no injuries were sustained. I double charged a couple of times on a 550B, but caught it. Also had erratic charges due to bridging in the drop tube on my LNL AP. All caught by good lighting and the hairy eyeball. Everyone screws up sometime, you just have to be careful and take your time.

[.45Cole]

The truth is this happens every once in a while here and it serves to keep us all vigilant. You have THE case for a double charge, as a .45 colt is almost large enough for a triple charge. I usually double charge a case at the end of a run and put it in the block to visually check all the cases to see if they look like a 2x'er.
The main thing is you're ok, and I think maybe a pride band-aid is in order. Get another .45 colt and keep on slingin' lead.
:idea:(maybe you could put the cylinder back in and "display" it at a locally owned gun store to help serve as a reminder to always be vigilant!):idea:


Can't order one of those out of the catalog (unless china's getting into the business)

[jonp]

Final word

Its hard to read.

Condition received --- Poor ... Firearm has Catostrophic incident top strap has bowed upwards & cylinder has been blown apart.

6-5-14. Gun has been blown up by overcharged ammo.
RO spoke with customer, customer was using reloads Not warranty. Marked unsafe to fire. Sent back to customer.


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/12/quryhava.jpg

Their we have it folks.


Thanks all lesson learned. Weigh your loaded rounds when using large cases with small loads.

Glad they marked it "unsafe to fire". I might have stuck a cork in the barrel, filled with blackpowder and given it a whirl.

[jonp]

Start shooting black powder! In a 45 Colt, 30 -35grs of powder looks like Mt Everest in the case! Double charge and the spilled powder will be all over the press and on your loading bench ... especially using a progress press like a Dillon. Yep, I use a 550B for my BP reloads
Plus ... original gunpowder is a weak powder! One can compress the powder column to the lips like a brick and you'll have heavier recoil but NEVER will your firearm be damaged

Or fill it full of Trailboss (if you can find it)! The important thing is no-one was hurt.

BTW: thanks for the pictures and the reminder to concentrate on what you are doing and always double check the charges before seating.

[Tackleberry41]

I guess once the OP said 'reloads' that was the end of the discussion as far us Uberti was concerned. And the guy on the phone didnt have to be rude, but again now that its not a warranty issue, maybe customer service is no longer required.

[JHeath]

[QUOTE=Buckshot;

I did this through not paying attention, and thinking I was a very safe reloader. This happened maybe 20 years ago and was the result of a double charge of IMR 4227 under the Lyman 311284. The rifle was a nice old Springfield NRA Sporter. The only thing left of value was the trigger guard and buttplate. No one was hurt so all turned out okay considering the alternatives. If me showing this photo, same as the OP being man enough to display his, and it prevents this from happening to anyone else it will be time well spent. In case anyone is interested, the 218gr Lyman slug tripped the PACT Chrono at a tad over 3,000 fps.


.................Buckshot[/QUOTE]

Buckshot, thanks for including the MV, that's one of the most interesting pieces of info on this thread.

Say . . . I saw an NRA sporter in a shop recently. I noticed it was a low-numbered receiver (heat treatment problems). I mentioned it to the clerk, who pretended ignorance and put it back on the rack. I am sure he knew the problem before he showed it to me, and counted on my ignorance. Also that he'll sell it to somebody who doesn't know.

Any chance yours was a low-number receiver?

[swheeler]

http://www.fototime.com/88A840C9F95788A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/2FC3C32627AA38A/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/15265F9E783B1F1/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/10A79A43D6A783D/standard.jpg

I did this through not paying attention, and thinking I was a very safe reloader. This happened maybe 20 years ago and was the result of a double charge of IMR 4227 under the Lyman 311284. The rifle was a nice old Springfield NRA Sporter. The only thing left of value was the trigger guard and buttplate. No one was hurt so all turned out okay considering the alternatives. If me showing this photo, same as the OP being man enough to display his, and it prevents this from happening to anyone else it will be time well spent. In case anyone is interested, the 218gr Lyman slug tripped the PACT Chrono at a tad over 3,000 fps.


.................Buckshot

There you go trying to push the velocity envelope again! I heard it could be dangerous:)

[GoodOlBoy]

I am going to throw my 2 cents in the ring even though I KNOW I am late to the conversation.

I have seen blown revolvers before, mostly clones, and mostly due to double charges, OR overpower loads. What strikes me in THIS case is that the brass of BOTH of the rounds to either side of the failure seem to be blown out pretty cleanly and evenly for a double charge. I know that a double charge is most likely, I am not disputing that. I am always terrified of doing it myself. I am wondering if it wasn't due to a air pocket, or fault in the steel used to cut the cylinder from. I wouldn't rule that out either. Would it make me even more vigilant in my reloading? Yes. Would I automatically assume it was a double charge? No. I have seen some clones that had cylinder throats that were either too far under spec or too far over. Heck my own blackhawk had one chamber that I suspected was the culprit to why I ALWAYS had one flier out of six rounds. When measured it turned out the cylinder throat on that chamber, and ONLY that chamber was .447. Not .452-453 like the rest. Ruger offered to fix it, but a buddy had just bought a throat reaming kit for his 45 colt to fix a similar problem so we just did it ourselves. I still shudder to think about what that chamber might have done if I had been shooting anything but soft lead cowboy loads.

My point is that if the chamber had a defect, and if the throats were on the small side, and if the bullets were on the large side it wouldn't take an incredible number of rounds to blow the cylinder due to continued weakening of the chamber wall until it failed. Honestly we will never know.

Like others I echo the fact that at least nobody got hurt and that's the most important thing.

BTW Yes if ever you send a gun to a manufacturer with damage and tell them you reload you pretty well automatically go to the "it's the end user's fault" line.

Also I noticed that the reload data on the sheet with the PB powder says 45 ACP. I am not saying that it IS the cause of a failure, but that isn't the reload data you used is it?

Thanks

GoodOlBoy

[flyingmonkey35]

Goodolboy

Nope that was not the reloading data that I was using for the lc.

I also reload 45 acp as well

[GoodOlBoy]

I didn't figure it was, but I was curious enough I had to ask. :p

My preferred loads for 45 long colt are a 250gr RNFP lead loaded over 87% by volume Trailboss with a standard large pistol primer. I got to my load volume by marking a case where the base of the bullet would be and cutting the case down. I started testing loads at a hair and a half under the base and continued to shorten the case until I was getting good accurate loads. Once I was getting good accurate loads I soldered a piece of brass wire (from old plumbing parts) on as a handle, and poof. Custom powder dipper for trailboss only. BTW to plug the flash hole I took a spent primer, turned it upside down and put it back in the primer hole. A buddy got curious a year or so back and weighed the charge, but I couldn't tell you what the weight was. Oh and as a precautionary warning if you shot different bullet types and shapes I would assume you would need a separate dipper for each one unless they were identical from the crimp groove to the base of the bullet.

GoodOlBoy

[flyingmonkey35]

One day I will save up some cash and get me another colt.

Trail boss and a custom scoop will be my go to for the lc.

Till then. 1911. 45 acp / 9mm px4 storm / 30.30/ etc..

[GoodOlBoy]

Not a thing in the world wrong with those choices my friend. Not a thing.

GoodOlBoy

[Savvy Jack]

Officially concluded in writing by Uberti - Presume this ends the thread

Figured I would reopen it. Flyingmonkey never complained, never moaned or pouted. he came on this board, shared an experience and learned the hard way what happens with a double charge of powder. It happens when folks use progressive presses.

While learning how to use my progressive press, I had ten or twelve double charges and five double bullet inserts!!!!! This is why I use a bulk type powder that overflows the case in the event of a double charge. All double charges were noticed. The double bullet inserts were NOT noticed but when I picked up a cartridge I noticed if felt unordinarily heaver than some others...after weighing each cartridge, I found 5 with two bullets inserted.

Over charges typically blow the chambers while a squib typically may not. Some revolvers are seen with up to nine bullets crammed into the barrel. With a heavy charge, the shot after the squib could bulge the barrel.....certainly could blow the chamber pending where and what!!

I spent a lot of time searching blown guns on the net and the best I found was on the SASS forum. 99% squibs or double charges. Not once from a simple over charge. Ironically from all the flack I get about the 44-40 loads, all discussed were 45's, 38's or 45-70s.

Flyingmonkey....probably not cost effective for an Uberti, but for a colt.....it could have been fixed.

http://www.peacemakerspecialists.com/contactus.html

[rbt5050]

if it was a reload I don't think they will do anything for you. glad you were not hurt. good luck with it.

[Outpost75]

Glad OP wasn't hurt.

Not surprised Uberti would not do anything because reloads involved. That was also the policy when I worked at Ruger because the practice of hand loading ammunition is beyond their control.

In testing of Rugers at the factory a double charge will bulge the chamber, but not blow up the gun. It takes heroic efforts to blow one and in such cases "The Brass Fairy" usually disappears with all the evidence.

[Walks]

I lost a Uberti in .45Colt to a new reloader.
Given him a box of shells to finish a match. He returned the empty brass 2 months later, loaded with .45acp 230gr bullets. I knew he was relatively new to reloading so I figured I'd dispose of them in My Ruger BlackHawk in .45Colt.
I made the mistake of leaving out My Uberti on the other side the box of suspect reloaded .45Colt. Went to the Head. One of the other members came along, loaded up the Uberti and it blew the top strap on the second shot.

The Distributor; EMF, gave me a $100 parts credit towards a replacement revolver.
The Young Cowboy Shooter paid for the New Revolver, taxes & fees included.

[flyingmonkey35]

I lost a Uberti in .45Colt to a new reloader.
Given him a box of shells to finish a match. He returned the empty brass 2 months later, loaded with .45acp 230gr bullets. I knew he was relatively new to reloading so I figured I'd dispose of them in My Ruger BlackHawk in .45Colt.
I made the mistake of leaving out My Uberti on the other side the box of suspect reloaded .45Colt. Went to the Head. One of the other members came along, loaded up the Uberti and it blew the top strap on the second shot.

The Distributor; EMF, gave me a $100 parts credit towards a replacement revolver.
The Young Cowboy Shooter paid for the New Revolver, taxes & fees included.Youch. Sorry to hear that. I am no longer a fan of uberti.

Dis you take some photos?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Drm50]

I've been loading for close to 60yrs. My dad would have to inspect the cases for load before he let me seat bullets. ( 38sp ) I still load on a single stage press and drop charges and inspect casings with a light. I have caught over charges and usually not a double. It's result of short charge in case before it. For whatever reason charge hangs only dropping partial load, next charge brings it loose. I load 41-44sp-44mg-45acp-45ar & 45 Colt and feel more at ease with them than 357s or smaller. Big case more visibility the way I look at it. I'm not seating a bullet in any case that I don't visually inspect. I weigh every 25th charge too. My buddies make fun of me but I haven't blowed up a gun yet.

[Char-Gar]

No need to test metal etc., the pic shows a classic overcharge of powder resulting in the top of the chamber going by-by and the top stap lifted. You now have a paper weight to remind you to never seat a bullet over a charged case you have not visually inspect for the proper powder charge.

Uberti has no fault in this, so they were right not to take blame.

[flyingmonkey35]

No need to test metal etc., the pic shows a classic overcharge of powder resulting in the top of the chamber going by-by and the top stap lifted. You now have a paper weight to remind you to never seat a bullet over a charged case you have not visually inspect for the proper powder charge.

Uberti has no fault in this, so they were right not to take blame.It sits on my shelf to this day. But I will still never purchase another uberiti do to the rudeness of the technisson I spone to on the phone.

When you work for a company you represent that company. Jainitor to CEO.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Char-Gar]

It sits on my shelf to this day. But I will still never purchase another uberiti do to the rudeness of the technisson I spone to on the phone.

When you work for a company you represent that company. Jainitor to CEO.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Well, no company or it's reresenatives should be rude with the public. That said, you were making an unreasonable request of them and I don't know what your side of the conversation sounded like. Sometimes, under some circumstances even the best trained customer service person can lose their cool.

[bigted]

Boy this thread has legs ... specially for a revolver blowup on the single shot section ... I know I know ... I heard that catty remark too

[Good Cheer]

Well, maybe it could get the cylinder trimmed and be used as a single shot.
:popcorn:

[GONRA]

DRM50 - olde phart GONRA has been reloading for same tyme frame as ya'll:
Heres my 5.7x28mm FN SUBSONIC Paranoid Powder Charging Procedure:

1. RCBS Chargemaster, with the BEAM SCALE PAN - establishes powder charge.
2. Remove charged pan, check on yer BEAM BALANCE.
3. Trickle as needed.
4. CANNOT RELIABLY EYEBALL POWDER CHARGES WAAAY DOWN IN CARTRIDGE CASE!
SO, drop a nail into Charged Case to make SURE you won't double charge it lateron.
5. Proceed onward with boolit seating,etc.

[MT Chambers]

Underwriters laboratories are now using the Lee ammomaster for all their destructive testing of guns and ammo.

[bigted]

Well, maybe it could get the cylinder trimmed and be used as a single shot.
:popcorn:

LOL ... like to see that ... would you consider that a falling block, roller or break open singleshot?

[ulav8r]

LOL ... like to see that ... would you consider that a falling block, roller or break open singleshot?

Broke open.

[flyingmonkey35]

Well, no company or it's reresenatives should be rude with the public. That said, you were making an unreasonable request of them and I don't know what your side of the conversation sounded like. Sometimes, under some circumstances even the best trained customer service person can lose their cool.What unreasonable request did I make? Did you read the post or are you just a troll?

They asked for it back.
They were rude on the phone.
And would not discuss it at all.

It amazes me how some of you live with your dishonest selves. That you call me a whiner or complainer.

When all I did do what the company asked of me.

If you are so ashamed of not owning up to bbn your own mistakes. I would tell you to Stop complaining when other people let others learn from thier failures.

Say something constructive next time



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Beagle333]

'Sad that your gun blew up, even though it was 5 years ago. I'm old school.... I use loading blocks and I pull two random cases from each block of 50 to re-weigh, then compare all cases to each other with a bore light as I look over the loaded block of cases before seating. I don't trust myself with a progressive. But no problems with squibs or overloads in 35 years of it. I'm slow, but I feel pretty good about them when loaded. I know I could use a powder cop die in a progessive, but I used a whack-a-mole for the first 10 years, so hey, the Rock Chucker IS fast to me. haha. Be safe and happy shooting!!! :D:Fire:

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=flyingmonkey35;2796634]Not really.

I was shooting at a duleling tree. About 25 feet 6 in plates and hitting more then missing. Nothing felt odd at all.

Even the last shot was a bit more of a boom then normal. But not handnumbing or anything.

Mate......ya blew it up with a double charge ---own that and get on with life ----got all yr fingers - eyes ok - ears ok ---L U C K Y ! ! ! ! !

[flyingmonkey35]

[QUOTE=flyingmonkey35;2796634]Not really.

I was shooting at a duleling tree. About 25 feet 6 in plates and hitting more then missing. Nothing felt odd at all.

Even the last shot was a bit more of a boom then normal. But not handnumbing or anything.

Mate......ya blew it up with a double charge ---own that and get on with life ----got all yr fingers - eyes ok - ears ok ---L U C K Y ! ! ! ! !Hi

You do realize that this post is 5 years old.

And I never disputed the double charge. Just stated unlikely.

So lessons learned.

I no longer use my loadmaster for reloading. I use it for case prep.

We are after all making contiand explosions.

I also did not reopen this post. Some else did with thier story.

By the comments I get some times I think you all walk on water at crap gold.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Love Life]

Flyingmonkey- I sent you a PM IRT your destroyed Uberti.

[flyingmonkey35]

Flyingmonkey- I sent you a PM IRT your destroyed Uberti.Got and replied

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[2152hq]

Update.

Looky what landed in my range bag.


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/28/y2epa8up.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/28/uqyzuqu2.jpg

This is what's left of the case that was fired. You can tell as its the only sherded case with a fired primer.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/28/y8u6evu3.jpg


Hoo boy. That's a mess

Uberti wants the gun back for investigation.

They states if its their fault its under warranty. If its the ammo it heads off to ammo manufacturer. In this case Me.



Shipping back to them tomorrow.

Way late to the discussion,,but over load or not, look at the near non existant inside wall thickness of the chamber that let go. From ten or 15 thou" in short sections perhaps down to near nothing.

The remaining rough edges of the chambers on each side where they sheared appear thicker their entire length.
That particular chamber that did let go, looks after the fact by the sectional view now revealed by the accident, that it was destined to happen.
There's just no material left in the walls of that chamber in many spots other than a couple .000 thickness holding things together.
Add in the possibility of locking bolt notches cut deeply and sharp and it wouldn't help matters.

If the top half of the cylinder decides to leave the room, it will bend and or crack the top strap. But the reason the cylinder cracks and separates in pieces does not necessarily have to be from an excess of pressure of the cartridge fired.

Just my look at things long after the fact.

Good discussion and discussions are good.

[swheeler]

Wow the brass is thicker than the cylinder wall, looks like aluminum foil. I hope you get a new revolver from Uberti, then you can shoot a couple crows for our resident xspurts lunches.;-) Maybe cook em up Texas BBQ style[smilie=w: