Super blackwawk hunter woes

[butch2570]

As near as I can mic (.0000)-not calipers, my Lee 200 gr RFN is dropping as is at .431 -.4315 with a alloy of 97.0 pb, 2.75 sb, and roughly .30 Cu with me adding 2% tin , I wanted to shoot this at or about cowboy load out of the SBHH 44 mag ,7 " barrel for plinking loads for my wife but I'm getting a little leading beginning in the thread crush area and about 1 or 2 inches -beyond. Here is the low down, I've mostly shot jacketed from this gun before now, so I gave her a good scrubbing and got her clean to start with and done so after every 6 rounds. The throats in this gun appear to be around .4315- .432 and the grooves appears to be at .431. Does this sound average for any of you other SBHH owners? Now, I don't have a hardness tester but this lead is fairly soft, nothing to be speeding up I know,hence the cowboy loads. I have a good bit of 700X that I want to use for this project , so premier accuracy or velocity is not the goal here, 25 yd plinking is .. I started out at 4gr and it leaded, should be around 800 fps give or take , I thought OK , its not orbitrating, so I started up with the loads, 1 gr at a time to see if it would bump up and seal , went to 8gr cleaning every 6 shots , No Go, the higher I went the worse it got, 45-45-10 JPW/LLA/MS was the lube , 2 coats at that, and I had a lubestar on the muzzle after going 6 hot , with no leading down the bore after the problem area. I'm waiting on a set of pin gauges this week to double check my measurements,but I think i'm close, with the exception of the restriction around the barrel threads, is this what causing the grief here,swaging my bullet down at this area and gas cutting my bullet immediately afterwards, thus the leading ? Or am I missing something else? Any input would be appreciated..

[rintinglen]

It seems as though you have pretty much dialed in the answer: the tight throat constriction. More common in .45 Rugers than in smaller calibers, it is nevertheless not unheard of in 44s. Fire-lapping is your friend here. There are several threads on this site that can guide you through the process, but most folks who have tried it say good things happen when the restriction is removed.

[missionary5155]

Good morning Butch
This reads like you have a good handle on this revolver.
My question would be .. you wrote the barrels lands are .431... Do you mean that .431 is the largest diameter at the constriction or farther down the barrel ? What is the constriction diameter ? Just want to be sure here...
But Rugers are infamous for that tight spot at the threads as Rintin wrote. Me I would smear some fine lapping compound with a Q tip into the barrel just before the thread area from the cylinder side. Do you have any WW or 50-50 boolits to fire down the barrel ? Your soft boolits may be to soft and extend the fire lapping time alot.
But I would smear, fire one. Smear fire one. Ten times. Clean and tap a soft lightly oiled boolit into the barrel from the muzzle side. As the bullet gets to the threads is it snug or still tight ? Measure.. now you have a rough idea how many more "Smear, fire one round" cycles you will need.
The goal is to get the barrel uniform diameter the whole length.. Once that is accomplished the cylinder throats can be addressed. I like to do them seperately to isolate the process.
The fun part is you still get to shoot. Just keep repeating " Trigger time"...
Mike in Peru

[butch2570]

Good morning Butch
This reads like you have a good handle on this revolver.
My question would be .. you wrote the barrels lands are .431... Do you mean that .431 is the largest diameter at the constriction or farther down the barrel ? What is the constriction diameter ? Just want to be sure here...
But Rugers are infamous for that tight spot at the threads as Rintin wrote. Me I would smear some fine lapping compound with a Q tip into the barrel just before the thread area from the cylinder side. Do you have any WW or 50-50 boolits to fire down the barrel ? Your soft boolits may be to soft and extend the fire lapping time alot.
But I would smear, fire one. Smear fire one. Ten times. Clean and tap a soft lightly oiled boolit into the barrel from the muzzle side. As the bullet gets to the threads is it snug or still tight ? Measure.. now you have a rough idea how many more "Smear, fire one round" cycles you will need.
The goal is to get the barrel uniform diameter the whole length.. Once that is accomplished the cylinder throats can be addressed. I like to do them seperately to isolate the process.
The fun part is you still get to shoot. Just keep repeating " Trigger time"...
Mike in Peru
I'm sorry Mike, I meant the Grooves are .431 as near as I can measure, and that is after the slug passes through the restriction also. I think this bullet is marginal in size to start with and the restriction is whats getting the best of it in this instance, but there is not really any other experienced casters/pistol smith/tinkerers in my area. So my help here is limited. I will have to do some researching on the firelapping, thanks for the input.

[44man]

One way is to recover fired boolits in good shape and see how much skid you have. Fast powders are not a friend in the .44 and a light boolit gets to speed too fast. I bet they are skidding the rifling and opening gas channels.
It got worse as you increased the charge so that should say something.
Tests I have done with fast powders in the .44 showed harder boolits from 28 to 30 BHN tripled accuracy and eliminated leading.
Mule snot is not best either. Make some Felix lube.
Most Rugers have .430 grooves and you need a good mike to measure, calipers will not do it.
I measure twice, first I put an oak stick, long one, on the recoil plate, drop in a brass rod to the wood, start a slug (only pure lead) to the rod and upset it with another rod. Use the stick to push the slug out the muzzle. Then run another all the way through to compare them. I doubt very much you have thread crush.
I will place my money on skid. 200 gr is too light for a Ruger anyway.

[DougGuy]

Another way to check for thread crush, (and this works good enough to feel the "ripples" behind the roll mark on the outside of the barrel) use a plastic or brass jag, patch it tightly into a clean bore. Observe how much effort it takes to push it down the bore. When it gets to the thread area, if the jag gets harder to push, you are feeling the thread crush. If it doesn't change much and you don't feel any difference, there is NO crush! If it stops, and you have to beat it through the threaded area, you have a severe crush in which case firelapping may not even take it out without damage to the rifling beyond the crush that doesn't need lapping. For these, you need to contact Ruger and let them have the gun for repair because they claim they ship their products within SAAMI specs, and any thread crush that will stop a tightly patched jag is below SAAMI specs for bore diameter dimensions and they should fix it. On their dime.

Depending on when it was made, most .44 caliber SBH do not experience the crush that the .45 barrels are subject to because the barrel walls are thicker and they are stronger because of being thicker.

As far as the throats go, if you have pin gages you can use those to measure, but also use them to check for out of round throats, oval throats, by looking along side the gage at a light, if it's not round you will see light on the sides of the pin where it isn't touching the egged part of the cylinder throat. If you slug the barrel like 44 man does, just from the muzzle, you should be able to slide the rifled slug into the front of the cylinder throats. If you cannot, then you know for sure the throats are swaging the boolits smaller than groove diameter and there likely is the problem causing leading and poor groups.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/1e067e33-3760-4368-961e-e7305cac71d2_zps75482635.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/1e067e33-3760-4368-961e-e7305cac71d2_zps75482635.jpg.html)

Me, I just size the throats to a light drag fit on a .432" boolit which leaves the throats at .4325" or thereabouts, and they work great with .432" boolits. If you need help with the cylinder, shoot me a PM.

+! on the Felix lube, it made a noticeable difference for me too!

[butch2570]

106241106242106243106244Ok , I have fired the bullets into very soft dirt and recovered them , it seems the bullets are touching 1side of the barrel more than the other as the lube grooves seem untouched on one side and smeared on the opposite side, and I also have a seperate Lee 240 gr HP mold that seems to be doing the exact same thing touching the grooves and are making contact on one side and not the other. 2 different molds in 2 different bullet weights.

[butch2570]

Yes a tightly patched jag will get tighter at the threads, and all my measurements were with a mic, when 44 man speaks of the skidding ,what is he referring too?

[DougGuy]

He is referring to the boolit being driven into the rifling hard enough that instead of instantly beginning to rotate with the twist, it wants to go forward into the bore a bit before the rifling is properly engaged and causing the boolit to begin to spin. Since the rifling is at an angle, it leaves an opening on the sides of each land where powder gas can escape, melting lead off the sides of the boolit and depositing said melted lead into the bore. The more the boolit "skids" before it begins to rotate, the larger these openings and the worse the problem is.

[DougGuy]

You know what? I would call Ruger, and see if you can get Gil on the line in customer support, and tell him your SBH has two problems, one the thread constriction, and two a timing issue causing the cylinder throats to be misaligned with the forcing cone/bore when fired, and see if they offer to email you a prepaid shipping label.

[44man]

Boolits are too soft to move the cylinder in line to the bore. The play in the cylinder is there for a reason. I also see wider grooves then the rifling has. Some are wider at the base then at the nose.
Both will cause leading.
The soft Keith will be worse because the shoulder has to pull the cylinder.
Never believe to soften for obturation, does not work. Keep shooting long enough and you will get off side wear in the throats and cone. Super tight cylinders wear faster. Tight fit cylinder pins will wear a gun faster.
Shoot harder boolits. I water drop WW metal. Let the boolit adjust the gun, never the reverse.
I am glad you found boolits, they tell the story.

[butch2570]

I just patched up a 44 brass jag TIGHT with 3 cotton patches and after getting it started into the muzzle and the bore was clean, it has a very firm but steady push and just before getting to the threads it gets loose for just a tiny bit and immediately after that it stops just shy of the forcing cone , then requiring a very stern push to get it on through.

[44man]

He is referring to the boolit being driven into the rifling hard enough that instead of instantly beginning to rotate with the twist, it wants to go forward into the bore a bit before the rifling is properly engaged and causing the boolit to begin to spin. Since the rifling is at an angle, it leaves an opening on the sides of each land where powder gas can escape, melting lead off the sides of the boolit and depositing said melted lead into the bore. The more the boolit "skids" before it begins to rotate, the larger these openings and the worse the problem is.
Thank you, exactly correct. I think it is just the boolit and powder. If the cylinder has a few thousandths side play it should come in line. Super rare to have a Ruger out of time. Best to let the boolit time the cylinder.

[butch2570]

Thanks for the advice 44.

[44man]

I just patched up a 44 brass jag TIGHT with 3 cotton patches and after getting it started into the muzzle and the bore was clean, it has a very firm but steady push and just before getting to the threads it gets loose for just a tiny bit and immediately after that it stops just shy of the forcing cone , then requiring a very stern push to get it on through.
Not too much, choke will make you get a mallet! Fire lapping will fix but you have other problems as I explained.

[butch2570]

I don't have any ww bullets cast up yet ,as I've got a bunch of this softer lead I wanted to use up for plinking for my wife but, I have about 500 240gr swc hard cast that are around 18 bhn from years ago that may do better with say some 2400 or 4756 maybe ? Try these and see what happens I think I was shooting around 11.5gr 4756 in my 629 and it done well.

[butch2570]

44 , one other thing ,in those picture the 3 rd picture over that 200gr RF bullet was driven into the muzzle flush and knocked back out and it also only engraved all of the bore on one side , the side you see did not touch the grooves in the barrel like the opposite side did, that bullet was not fired. And it also done the same with the 240gr bullet too.

[DougGuy]

I would still call Ruger and see what they say. Many Ruger owners have gotten back a better revolver than they sent in, because the guys in repair will "build" a better gun than the production line. They can take the time and go through it pretty good.

44man is correct about letting the boolit time the cylinder, and the looser it is the easier it is for the boolit to do that, well, up to a point. I like the Lee RF boolits like your 255gr because they have a wide meplat which is devastating on game, but they also have a smooth transition into the bearing surface, the sides, and the sides are longer than they would be on a LSWC Keith type boolit. I -DO- use and recommend a longer, smoothly cut 11° forcing cone, it works very well with those RF boolits and it's not such an abrupt step from cylinder throat to rifling.

[44man]

18 to 22 bhn is good. Still have the Keith shoulder though. What I found is the Keith needs better cylinder alignment at the start. Some guns shoot them like a house afire but others fail.
Been fooling with the .44 since 1956 and love the thing.
Don't give up, the Hunter is a wonderful gun. The best .44 Ruger makes is the SRH, then the Hunter. Both have done 1/2" at 50 meters for me.
It is just a mechanical thing after all.

[butch2570]

I drove one of the 240 hard cast swc through the bore and it pushes through my throats with very little pressure , so I believe that throats sizing down my bullets can also be ruled out.

[butch2570]

This gun is factory , no mods at all, 1/2" at 50 , off of bags , if you don't mind me asking ?

[44man]

44 , one other thing ,in those picture the 3 rd picture over that 200gr RF bullet was driven into the muzzle flush and knocked back out and it also only engraved all of the bore on one side , the side you see did not touch the grooves in the barrel like the opposite side did, that bullet was not fired. And it also done the same with the 240gr bullet too.
Can't use a boolit to slug. use pure lead like a round ball or dead soft sinker. I really like pure round balls. Anything harder can be driven off side. Please don't use what you shoot to slug a bore. You will also see spring back that you don't want. I am lucky since I shoot a lot of BP so I have RB molds for all kinds of calibers.

[DougGuy]

Can you push a not yet loaded boolit into the throats? Ideally, you would want the boolit sized .001" to .002" larger than groove diameter, and the throats should be sized enough to let that boolit be pushed into the front of the throats with some drag fit.

[butch2570]

Yes sir, I used muzzleloader balls for my slugs except for the swc that I just drove through it.

[butch2570]

Can you push a not yet loaded boolit into the throats? Ideally, you would want the boolit sized .001" to .002" larger than groove diameter, and the throats should be sized enough to let that boolit be pushed into the front of the throats with some drag fit.Yep, that 200 gr Lee will push through the throat as dropped with just the tiniest bit of resistance.

[Roosters]

Butch I sent you a PM

[butch2570]

When I pushed the tight patch down the bore is there some reason for it to hit a little loose spot just before hitting the threads, as this is the very area where most of my leading is occurring ?

[butch2570]

thanks for the input every one, but it's about time to head off for the grindstone, 2 nd shift, keep the thoughts coming, I'll get some water dropped ww cast up and let them harden up some and see if 44 man has the proper diagnosis on this , and get some felix lube made up too.

[DougGuy]

When I pushed the tight patch down the bore is there some reason for it to hit a little loose spot just before hitting the threads, as this is the very area where most of my leading is occurring ?

The torque from tightening the barrel to the frame is distorting the bore a bit. If Ruger gives you an RMA and a shipping label, it would be their problem and they would fix it. That, is something firelapping will NOT remove. I would definitely call them. It may take some work to actually talk to someone on the phone, but it would be worth the effort. You can also request an RMA by filling in the request form, but it's easier to get a prepaid label over the phone.. Just document any issues you feel need addressing, thread choke, slight enlarging of bore past the threaded area, cylinder possibly needs timing looked at, and they will take care of it. Good luck with it, gotta LOVE a good shooting .44 and you will have one soon enough!

[butch2570]

The 45/45/10 lube , what would the best application and pressure limits of this lube? Just curious since the 4 gr load of 700 X and a 200 gr cast bullet by imr literature is only listed at under 12000 cup and around 800 fps.

[44man]

This gun is factory , no mods at all, 1/2" at 50 , off of bags , if you don't mind me asking ?
Yes, many, SRH, Hunter, S&W 29, All BFR's, right out of box. My old SBH is still good for 3/4" after about 76,000 heavy loads. I just do triggers if needed. Darn, even got 1/2" with a new Taurus.
I have worked on guns forever and shot hundreds of thousands and even many custom revolvers can't beat most factory guns. All they do is equal them.
You need do NOTHING to the Hunter but to load right.
Research all my posts to see that the loading bench is where it is, almost never the gun. The Ruger .45 Colts can have throats too small but I never found that in a .44.
I will say my hardest job ever is to get fellas to relax when they have a good gun. You learn more sitting at the bench and staring at the round. Imagine what it does when shot.
You shoot Hornady bullets with good accuracy, why do you think you can shoot soft cast the same? Why not make cast act the same way?
Actually I shoot cast at max better then jacketed. so many forget the twist rate and think any boolit can be shot at any velocity. The Ruger .44 comes in with 240 gr and can go to 330 as long as spin is right for the boolit.
Nobody has ever shot the revolver like I have, My best ever was 2-1/2" at 500 yards and 4 out of five on a 6" swinger at 400 yards, first shot a sighter. Pop cans at 200 yards got easy from bags.
Long ago I could bust pop cans at 100 from Creedmore every shot with the SBH, open sights.
Facts for you, you do NOT need to fit to throats, only groove as long as you get a straight start to the bore. If your groove is .430", a .430" boolit will shoot even if the throats are .432" or more.
Soft lead does NOT make a better fit either. It ruins boolits from slump and skid. This is a .430" boolit from a .4324" throat at 200 yards. 1-5/16". 106246
No I do not shoot 25 yards, EVER. 10624750 yards with a new .500 JRH BFR. 106248Off hand at 100 with my .44

[butch2570]

Great shooting 44, I have shot my 629 to 330 yds at fridge size rocks with a dot scope from a rest and had few problems with that gun, but nothing as far as tiny groupings go. Mostly just wanted to let my wife have some trigger time with the sbh with some faster powder for plinking as she wouldn't be shooting past 25 mostly to 50 yds . Since this lead has just a little under 3% antimony in it as is ,would a 50/50 alloy with coww water dropped get me where I need to be you think ? Being that I only have about 300 lbs of ww and probably about 600lbs of this softer lead, just trying to stretch my lead out a little. But I have my own berm so recovery is what I'm doing also.

[butch2570]

44 , you said the faster powder wasn't my friend, can you give me a few opinions on some loads that would be around the 800 fps range for her , here is what I have on hand, 700 x, IMR 4227, 4756,7625,4759, and 2400. This is what I can get locally if needed Aa 4100, aa 9, aa 5, N 105, and 800 x.

[44man]

44 , you said the faster powder wasn't my friend, can you give me a few opinions on some loads that would be around the 800 fps range for her , here is what I have on hand, 700 x, IMR 4227, 4756,7625, and 2400. This is what I can get locally if needed Aa 4100, aa 9, aa 5, N 105, and 800 x.
4227's have proven very heat sensitive in the .44 but from a cool gun it is accurate. 2400 is a good powder. But both need loaded for more then you want.
Just make the boolits harder for the faster powders.
Yeah, sounds backwards but fast powders peak soon and are hard on boolits. Unique and 231 are good powders too, yet making boolits very hard solved my problems. If the boolit fits you need only protect it. Don't try to expand it again after it engages the rifling.
I never believed the old stuff because I did too much testing and have never told anyone to shoot softer boolits. In almost 62 years of shooting revolvers, I tried everything ever written. But the wrong stuff is still followed today.
The very worst leading I ever seen was on .38's shot by the Cleveland police dept. at the range. I cleaned their guns and just how do you remove lead from the outside of the gun without harming bluing? Dead soft wad cutters. Spit lead from the gap like mud. You should have seen the bores.
Obturate means to SEAL. It does not mean to expand so a boolit that fits will obturate. Expand first or after just ruins the boolit. I do NOT want a .430" boolit to expand to fit my throats, just seal the bore. Why smush the GG's shut in the throats?
Fast powder is OK, just don't ruin the boolit.

[44man]

Water drop WW boolits and let them age harden. But I actually add antimony and tin to WW metal for fast powders. 50-50 will NOT do it. That is borderline with slow powders and will need a GC to stop skid.

[butch2570]

[QUOTE=44man;2798710]Water drop WW boolits and let them age harden. But I actually add antimony and tin to WW metal for fast powders. 50-50 will NOT do it. That is borderline with slow powders and will need a GC to stop skid.[/QUO
Thanks for all of your input and time, you've been a big help.

[44man]

I want to see what you come up with.

[butch2570]

I want to see what you come up with.

44 ,Well , one thing is, I think another mold may be in order here , the 240 I have is really a touch small, the 200 is just big enough , but I would like to stay with plain base as I don't want to push the velocity to the point of gas checking if I can keep from it, I will cast some coww water drop and age ,with felix lube first, I will still try the 700 x first and see if that changes anything, if not I will change to a slower powder ,and then gas check to see if that changes anything. I will also try these 240 hard cast I have , they are made by a man about 35 min from me and see how they fair in this gun,as I can't get bullets that hard unless I heat treat, just for a reference standpoint. Those are the bullets I shot in my 629 , that really got me interested in casting to begin with. I sent you a P M also.

[44man]

I just never had luck with light boolits. The Ruger loves 240, 250 gr and up. When I made my mold, I actually screwed up and wound up with a 330 gr. I cut the cherries by eye and how they look, never made a drawing. I have an 11* forcing cone so made the ogive as close as I could to that and the nose is long. I was worried until I shot it, thing is pretty crazy and also thumps deer right quick.
It is a little small at .430" and my throats are .4324" but the nose in the cone takes care of that just fine.
The Lee 310 shoots almost as good and the gun loves the RD 265 at .432".
However the heavy boolits need driven enough so that leaves out plinking stuff. I would stay around 240 for lighter loads.
The reason hard works is a low pressure load actually applies pressure to the boolit faster. Softer lead works better with 2400 or 296 but the .44 kills deer just fine with hard boolits. The two calibers I have that need no expansion at all are the .44 and .475, the .45 Colt has worked OK too. Open a .44 too fast and penetration suffers. About every boolit I shoot are water dropped WW metal. Not good for hunting in the 45-70 or JRH revolvers though. Instant paper punches.
PB boolits just need to be hard.
Guys look for explosive expansion in the .44 all the time. Good for water jugs and fun but not for hunting.
I can show what a hard boolit from the .44 does to a deer. 106443 I was able to clean this up and lost just a little meat. If you hunt, don't look for soft hollow points in the .44. I shot three with the 240 XTP and none penetrated on behind the shoulder, lung shots.

[44man]

I hate gas checks too and my boolits for the .475 and .500 JRH are PB, also one for the 45-70.
The GC and the Harvey Pro-Tex bore were designed for soft lead, the GC to stop skid and the zinc washer to wipe the bore. The Harvey went the way of the Dodo Bird.
Some use wads but that doesn't work at all. Fillers do nothing for the boolit. You still read that you must protect the boolit base from melting, more false, old wives tales.
Protect boolit integrity and keep it tight in the bore so gas can't squirt past it.
For accuracy, we need to get into brass and case tensions. Primers too in the .44. Use standard primers for all powders.

[DougGuy]

My experience with the XTP also. They were shedding their jackets and I had guilding metal and lead fragments all in the meat. I do NOT like a boolit/bullet that blows up right after impact. The exceedingly fine Nosler partition hp that they used to load in Winchester Partition Gold ammo was perhaps the finest factory .44 load ever made. Shame they don't make it anymore and can't find the partition hp either. Oh well, have to use the Lee C430-310-RF!! :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Long ago a rag did an article on the MOA revolver. They spent big bucks on a custom barrel and the gun. They shot jacketed and after much work and time, finally got 1" at 100.
I have more 1" and 1/2" groups at 100 with out of box revolvers and cast then I can count. For years and years now I shoot nothing but cast boolits.
Some here are old enough to remember the rag. I think it was Handloader.
Once you learn cast, you will never, ever buy another bullet.
I taped a shotgun shell to the paper at 100 yards once. Shot at it with my .500 JRH from bags using an Ultra Dot. Missed the first by 1/2" but hit on the second shot. 440 gr boolit does a job on plastic. 106450

[44man]

My experience with the XTP also. They were shedding their jackets and I had guilding metal and lead fragments all in the meat. I do NOT like a boolit/bullet that blows up right after impact. The exceedingly fine Nosler partition hp that they used to load in Winchester Partition Gold ammo was perhaps the finest factory .44 load ever made. Shame they don't make it anymore and can't find the partition hp either. Oh well, have to use the Lee C430-310-RF!! :bigsmyl2:
You can't go wrong with the Lee, that darn thing really works. I can not remember a deer going more then 30 yards when I used it. It will not stop so don't line up two or three deer unless legal to shoot more then one a day. :holysheep

[butch2570]

So ,the 310 Lee has been a fairly accurate boolit without the gas checks? And Doug is right on about bullet blow up , I hate it too , Speer Grand Slams stooped that on the deer in my 30-06 back in the 80's. Some time in the future I will have a custom mold , once I get this thing figured out and get the leading stopped.

[butch2570]

44,that boolit in post 31 ,is that your boolit from the homemade mold? I notice you have enough case tension on the boolit also to see the profile of the boolit through the brass , that is very similar to mine also. I sent you another P M.

[44man]

So ,the 310 Lee has been a fairly accurate boolit without the gas checks? And Doug is right on about bullet blow up , I hate it too , Speer Grand Slams stooped that on the deer in my 30-06 back in the 80's. Some time in the future I will have a custom mold , once I get this thing figured out and get the leading stopped.
Mine needs the GC but if the check portion is removed it should be good if hard enough. Don't get the mold top milled off. Just get the GC portion opened or a mold that does not need a check. Without the check, another GG would be good. I found the one GG on some Keith boolits is no good, two or three that hold the same amount of lube will be more accurate. TL boolits work better with real lube like Felix then they do with mule snot.

[DougGuy]

You should try both ways, with GC and without. The Lee, and probably with other boolits as well, groups vary with hardness. You take that same boolit, with gas checks, and the same weighed every charge of whatever powder you use, 2400, 296/H110, LilGun, all things being the same, primer, crimps, neck tension, all that the same, you will be surprised how changing only the hardness changes POI. Please do get an 11° forcing cone on the barrel, they just WORK.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg.html)

I did an experiment with the Lee C452-300-RF in my .45 Colt Vaquero. I had some cast in Lyman #2, with Felix lube, they shot pretty good or so I thought. About that time I got some C430-310-RF for the .44 SBH in 50/50+2% and was really surprised how well it shot them right off the get go I knew it was a great combination, boolit, hardness, 17.0gr old Hercules 2400, WLP, collet crimp. So I thought well, hmm.. These are soft enough to dig a thumbnail in, the Lyman #2 is a lot harder (even though it only air cooled) so I wonder what will happen if I get softer and try it in the .45? Sure enough, I got some 50/50+2% and groups improved by a noticeable amount. I then tried some even softer at 20:1 and they opened slightly. Just a little bit, but enough to say that the 50/50+2% outshot it. Barely, but it did.

I suspect the same thing will happen with a lot of Rugers, and there is an optimum alloy hardness for the velocity they are fired at. I like 1150f/s, I like the boolit to be just barely above the sound barrier when it hits hide. 1170f/s from the muzzle at a deer 30-40yds away is a near perfect speed for the distance, and at that speed, 50/50+2% is the ideal alloy makeup for MY .44 SBH, it showed an immediate liking for this alloy. Yours may be different, 44man's long barrel may like a diff alloy, this is what mine likes, as the gun has shown me this by grouping so well and leaving a black barrel, a lube star at the muzzle, and no leading to speak of. You just have to try different alloys, try with and without a GC, the gun will tell you what it likes and what it doesn't like.

[butch2570]

I will try different variables , as it's all about what the gun wants , especially if I want to shoot full house and hunt with it , I have already considered opening the forcing cone to 11 , I don't see where this can do anything but help overall. Work keeps getting in my way here;)

[butch2570]

Doug I have one more thing I want to try also , that is the H F powder coat gun and some powder coat for kicks and giggles .

[44man]

44,that boolit in post 31 ,is that your boolit from the homemade mold? I notice you have enough case tension on the boolit also to see the profile of the boolit through the brass , that is very similar to mine also. I sent you another P M.
Yes. Needs a tough boolit so brass does not size the lead. I can see GG ripples on the brass.
The RNFP and WLN or WFN will engage the cone and pull the cylinder, The Keith can't because the nose is smaller then the bore and the little shoulder must do the work. Soft shoulder will mush off and the boolit will not be in line to the bore. Need perfect chamber, bore alignment first. Make a Keith or wad cutter very hard and the shoulder has less mush.
My BFR's are perfect and I have been sent Keith styles to test. None will shoot to what I want.
I do not believe in a Taylor throat because the boolit is going too fast when it hits the rifling. You need bullets.

[butch2570]

Well, I got my pin gauges and gave this gun a cleaning and tried the gauges and here is my measurements, the .416 minus gauge will fall through the bore until it gets to the thread choke and stops,the .415 will pass through , so there is one small issue, the throats are as follows, the .431 gauge is the largest pin to freely pass through the throats , all but one and it wouldn't take much , so it's not as bad as I thought it would be. And my bore slugs will pass through 5 of my throats , but the one requires a little pressure to do so , another issue, the others require almost no pressure to pass through the throats. So I think 44 man is right, lube and bullets are in order after I get these other two issues fixed. I also cast up some wd coww and they are hardening now , so now it's time for some real lube.

[butch2570]

Well, I fire lapped the restriction and followed that with a dose of hand lapping to smooth the bore back up and lapped the throats out so the .431 pin passes through my throats, and the .416 gauge passes freely now all the way through the bore. I made up some Ben's Red and Pan lubed the same alloy I was having trouble with the leading and presto, 5 gr of 700 x and the 200 gr Lee and it took care of 95% of the leading , just a tiny bit now that can be pushed out with a tight patch, just checking my progress. Now I can move on to Felix Lube,wd coww, and see if that takes care of the rest of it.

[kweidner]

Glad to see it's coming together for you. I would have chimed in but can add nothing to 44Man's advice. He's probably forgot more than most of us know. You were in good hands. Felix lube is fantastic stuff. I don't use the carnuba and still is fantastic.

[butch2570]

I had to try Ben's Red first, I was in wal mart and felt more like a man going through the check out with stp, Lucas red grease and JPW than I would have with the baby oil,Lanolin,and Ivory soap , LOL. I will try Felix Lube also, I really just thought that Ben's may have been a little faster to make ..

[kweidner]

Look lanolin or not .....Felix lube works:razz: First time i bought lanolin I too was iffy. Doesn't even bother me in the slightest. True these days I shoot more HT coated than any, I will always have some felix muffins around.

[44man]

I had to try Ben's Red first, I was in wal mart and felt more like a man going through the check out with stp, Lucas red grease and JPW than I would have with the baby oil,Lanolin,and Ivory soap , LOL. I will try Felix Lube also, I really just thought that Ben's may have been a little faster to make ..
Darn, you are in WV! Where?

[butch2570]

Darn, you are in WV! Where?
Summersville , 7 or 8 minutes from the lake, 3 hrs from you probably.

[44man]

Summersville , 7 or 8 minutes from the lake, 3 hrs from you probably.
That's very far. Darn it. WV is a hard state to drive anywhere.

[butch2570]

That's very far. Darn it. WV is a hard state to drive anywhere.That's not so bad, I drive 3 hrs a day round trip to work. I have a 310 Lee on the way, did you ream the gas check base out of yours , or use another method to remove it?

[44man]

That's not so bad, I drive 3 hrs a day round trip to work. I have a 310 Lee on the way, did you ream the gas check base out of yours , or use another method to remove it?
I stayed with the GC, other then cost, it works fine. I seen no reason to change a good boolit.
What I don't like to read is when a guy mills the mold top, that ruins a good boolit.