Scratch built "Baby" High Wall

[oldred]

I finally completed my scratch built "Baby" High Wall in 22 Magnum after it had sit for a couple of years due to the farm taking priority, this is the companion to the scratch built 45-90 High Wall I built first. It's machined from 4140HT except for some internal parts which are hardened O-1 tool steel and was built on a 1440 lathe using a home made milling attachment but I have since acquired a Bridgeport clone for the next project. It's still in the white for the time being, I rust blued the barrel but I intend to do the polished surfaces by hot bluing for deeper more glossy blue, I have to wait until I get the bluing chemicals delivered from Brownells for that project but I had to take it out and shoot it first!!!


The rifle with it's big brother,
106183

106180

106182

106184

A couple of more pics

106181


106179

[725]

Wow..................

[69daytona]

Very nice, how good do they shoot? Nice wood.

[Tatume]

Very nice!

[oldred]

That wood came from a tree that was being cut up for firewood when I happened along, I just about had the big one when I saw those guys cutting into that huge old Walnut log with their chainsaw! I locked up the brakes and jumped out with full intentions of at least trying to get him to sell me the fork they were about to cut but before I made an offer to buy he instead told me he would gladly GIVE me the whole tree if I would haul it off his property! He was happy to get rid of it and I was HAPPIER to get it! I got several really nice pieces from that huge old tree, it makes me sick to think of how many end up as firewood because people just don't know what they have.

[M-Tecs]

Great job a great story on the wood. Thanks for posting

[s mac]

You Sir are a craftsman.

[enfield]

amazing, some babies are just wayyyy cuter than other babies. nice job

[smoked turkey]

oldred that is some very stunning work. I mean that in the most complimentary way. If I was within 200 miles of you I'd have to invite myself to see it in person!

[terryt]

Hi Oldred:

One very fine job.

Terryt

[Uncle Jimbo]

Very nice rifles. You are truly a craftsman.

[nekshot]

true craftsman, that you are. Very nice addition to an existing nice piece! You almost out did yourself on this one!!

[upnorthwis]

I know a person who is also trying to machine his own action. His goal is to have someone say to him: "Is that a Ballard"

[roadie]

Now, that's a beautiful scratch built rifle. I imagine there was more to doing it than just scaling down.
Do you anticipate any problems with 4140HT and caustic bluing? I've heard it can be particular about taking a good color.

I've seen a lot of fantastic wood turned into firewood because they didn't know, or care what they had. That wood is gorgeous.

[oldred]

Do you anticipate any problems with 4140HT and caustic bluing? I've heard it can be particular about taking a good color.


You heard right about the 4140HT being particular about taking a good color, the first rifle was built from the same material and the bluing stage of project became a frustrating endeavor! I first tried rust blue but the best I could get looked more grey than blue/black in sunlight and had some areas that seemed to be darker than others which gave it a sort of splotchy look, it didn't look too bad under artificial light but not real good either. After several attempts using different techniques I just gave up and set up a hot bluing tank but even that turned out to be tricky, it was worse than the rust blue due to a reddish tint that just looked plain awful in bright light. A retired gunsmith finally told me to lower the temperature of the solution to about 270 deg and leave it in the bath for a longer period of time and that solved the problem, it came out a nice deep and even blue/black so I intend to do the same this time.


I am still a bit puzzled as to why the barrel rust blues quite nicely and the barrel on the big rifle blued ok in the original hot blue attempt at the normal higher temperatures, both are also 4140 as is the receiver and the only difference is that the receiver material is heat treated while the barrel is not. I am "ASSUMING" that the pre-hard condition of the 4140HT vs the softer 4140 used in the barrel makes the difference, for whatever reason the 4140HT seems to be more rust resistant than the annealed version???


Yes scaling it down did involve more than just reducing everything a certain % because if everything had been reduced proportionally some parts of the rifle simply would have been too small except for a child, this caused some major headaches and more than a few "head scratching" moments!

[roadie]

I've never had problems with straight 4140 taking a good color and never dealt with 4140HT. The trick of lowering the temp to 270 is new to me and something I'll remember. I've run into red colors with any nickel bearing steel, raising the temp fixed that.

Early Ruger M77's were a bear, they come out black, then in a couple of weeks, start turning red. I had read it was because the steel contained silicone, no idea as to the validity of that. Possibly, the 270 temp trick would help there.

Are you using Brownell's salts? I used them for years, they did a good job. I one time mixed my own and was really happy with the durability of the finish...nasty stuff to mix up though, and critical of what steel it would color.

[oldred]

To be honest that trick of lowering the temperature goes against common practice and it was suggested by more than one person that I should try hotter than normal, which I did, but raising the temperature (in my case at least) did not help or hurt it just didn't make much difference. The fellow that told me to try the 270 deg said that he had done this in the past and it had worked well for him so thinking I had tried everything else I did that and it worked great, it takes a bit longer in the bath to achieve a deep color but it sure worked for me.

I am as of now awaiting the salts from Brownells and after setting up my tanks I intend to try a piece of this material as a test rather than go through several attempts at bluing the receiver again, this piece of 4140 is from the same material as the other rifle so I expect it to react in the same manner. The Brownells salts may give different results than the small batch of commercial salts I had from an unknown source the last time, the chemicals I used before were from a batch that had been bought back in the 70's and the guy I bought them from didn't know much about them.

[Fishman]

Oh my. I wish I had a lathe . . . and some of your skill. I will have to settle for thinking about how I can make a stock like that. Again, wow.

[Frank46]

When you first posted I thought ok he's making a low wall. Nope, a baby high wall. Excellent work and thanks for sharing. Frank

[Buck Neck It]

Are prints available for a highwall? Or did you measure an original?

Stunning rifles!

[EDG]

>>>Early Ruger M77's were a bear, they come out black, then in a couple of weeks, start turning red. I had read it was because the steel contained silicone, no idea as to the validity of that<<<

The element silicon is used in some cast metals to make them flow better when casting.
With aluminum it leaves a black smut when acid cleaned. Since it is silicon (same chemical in sand) it is not dissolved by normal cleaning acids. It requires that super nasty and dangerous hydroflouric acic mixed with nitric acid to remove the residue.

[oldred]

Are prints available for a highwall? Or did you measure an original?


The "big" rifle in those pics was my first project and it was built from measurements, pics and notes taken from an original but an excellent set of prints is available from an E-Bay seller (he has lots of other firearm prints also, 1911, Sharps, etc) just search "1885 Winchester", I have a buddy who bought this plans set when he started his own High Wall project so I got to look them over. They are reprints of original Winchester factory drawings and are very detailed, complete and quite easy to read, they even include some copies of the original 1885 drawings that are not usable but included as an interesting side note and that they are! These plans sets are around $30 and for that price they are indeed a bargain and contain every dimension for every part right down to the screws and pins, these plans have been in the public domain for years and since no copyright would be violated they can be taken to a printer and blown up to large prints (which is what he did) but they are quite easy to work from as they are.


I made a couple of mods to these rifles more for cosmetic purposes than anything else although one of these allows for adjusting the trigger pull, I mounted the sear in a carrier that slides in slots milled into the receiver instead of simply hanging it on a pin going through the sides of the receiver. This eliminated the unsightly (to me) pin ends that normally appear just under the hammer at the edge of the contour but also allowed for minor adjustments of the sear position (by design it can not be positioned so that the trigger becomes dangerously light) and I also eliminated the two screw heads that normally show in the sides of the receiver just above the trigger. This was done by machining the lower tang with extra lugs on the sides that fit into matching recesses in the back of the receiver that are held in with screws that are hidden by the stock, this was done purely for cosmetic reasons and serves no other purpose. All-in-all I suppose it was a lot of unnecessary work probably but it does make for a cleaner looking receiver and it was just a hobby project anyway.

I have heard that the High Wall is a very difficult project to build but I didn't think it was all that bad and it was a very enjoyable experience for me, I feel that anyone with patience and willingness to pay attention to detail can build one of these things. I am not a professional I am just a self taught amateur machinist and retired welder and I managed to build both these rifles using a Harbor Freight 14x40 lathe with a home made milling attachment so if a person just takes their time and makes each piece to the called for dimensions it will all fit together when the last piece is finished!

There was another fellow who has posted here before and on other forums that had the rather ingenious idea of making the receiver in two halves that allowed easy access to the interior and then welded them together, this would be a much easier way to build one of these rifles as long as it was only for a RF or maybe one of the low pressure designs, if an easily weldable steel was chosen (even 1018 would be stronger than 19th century steel) and then properly welded before making the barrel bore or lever spring port in the front of the receiver this method should be as strong as if it had been machined from a solid piece of the material. The ends of the welds (normally the weakest part) would be machined away and the weld could even be stronger than the parent metal depending on the filler and method of welding used, the receiver could then be case hardened and would be perfectly serviceable except for use with modern high pressure rounds. Even color case hardening could be done to these receivers built by this method unlike the 4140HT that I used which can not be color hardened.

[WILCO]

Very nice rifles. You are truly a craftsman.

Indeed!

[OuchHot!]

Oldred, I thought the apex had been reached with your first highwall but this is even better! I sure wish your little highwall was commercially available. Very nice!

[GLL]

Beautiful Craftsmanship !

Jerry

[woodbutcher]

:bigsmyl2:Those are gorgeous.Outstanding craftsmanship.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[flint45]

Great job i wish i could build a couple rifles like that.

[oldred]

I wish I could build a couple rifles like that.


I bet you could and I would really like to see more home built firearms here because it really is a fun and rewarding hobby, most people I talk with think at first I have a shop full of machinery and years of machining experience but neither is the case. I am a retired welder and bought a lathe to use here on the farm to repair tractor parts for myself and my neighbors, a friend asked me to make a part for his shotgun and I got to thinking that if I could copy all the parts in the High Wall rifle I always wanted it just might all fit together and make a working rifle, I did this and it actually worked! All I had was a lathe but I rigged up a home made milling attachment and bought a few other tools from Enco with the most expensive ($189 at the time) being a rotary table and a good selection of hand files for final fitting of working parts and contouring the outside surfaces of the receiver, etc. I am confident this could be done easier on even a small home shop type mill so machinery investment could be less than the cost of a rifle but the most important tools needed are free, they are patience and a willingness to pay attention to small details. I like to encourage anyone who is interested in doing this to at least try, I think most might be surprised at what they could accomplish with a bit of determination.

[Buck Neck It]

That's it! I just have to try this! This project is going on my list!

That rifle is so pretty, I am eating my liver with envy.

[BCRider]

That's a truly lovely job you did. And a couple of great pieces of wood you found.

Any chance of seeing pictures of some of the work shop setups you used? I recall from the other rifle thread, at least I THINK it was your thread, that you milled out the majority of the area for the falling block and then finished into the corners by hand with a file. Is that the case with this one as well?

[oldred]

Any chance of seeing pictures of some of the work shop setups you used? I recall from the other rifle thread, at least I THINK it was your thread, that you milled out the majority of the area for the falling block and then finished into the corners by hand with a file. Is that the case with this one as well?

Yes the "square hole" was started with a drilled hole that then was milled to the square shape with a 1/4"x4" carbide long end mill leaving the corners with a 1/8" radius. I then used curved rifler files to finish the corners but flat files can also be used by placing guides at the top and bottom of the hole to prevent filing to a taper, it turns out to be not nearly as hard to do as it sounds. Also the outside contours of the receiver were filed using mill files, most folks tell me that it must have taken forever to do that but it's surprising how fast it goes using good sharp files and a soft jawed vise to hold the parts. Shaping the contours on the receiver is actually little different than doing autobody work, just slower.

Almost everyone I talk with asks about the breechblock hole and when I started this project the first time I too was concerned more about that than anything else but it turned out it was not nearly so bad as I had feared, actually the hardest part of the entire project is milling the extractor pocket in the receiver beside that breechblock hole. That one is a real booger but it too can be done using a long 1/8" end mill and a LOT of patience.


I will try to get that milling attachment set up back on the lathe in a day or so and take some pics of it, this thing is simple, relatively inexpensive and a version of it could be adapted to just about any lathe making for a VERY useful tool for those without a mill.


Maybe if we can get a few folks interested we might be able to start a thread in the special projects section and do a group build? I have been toying with the idea of building one of these things as an inline muzzle loader, when a buddy asked me about doing that I didn't think much of the idea but after talking with several others and thinking about it a bit it just might be worth the effort???

[Pb2au]

Very pretty rifle, thank you for sharing!

[Buck Neck It]

I am thinking that a keyway broach could get those square corners.

[skeettx]

Well done!
Kudos on all things metal and wood
Thank you for sharing
Mike

[oldred]

I am thinking that a keyway broach could get those square corners.

I thought so too at first but even with the proper broaches making a block to fit the hole with a recess for the broach was a lot harder to do than it sounds, after fiddling around with the broach for a couple of days I just gave up and filed it. Another problem with a broach, at least with a large and/or high power cartridge, is that the corners of the hole actually need a slight radius for strength. If the corners are acutely square they become stress risers and possibly could cause cracking, maybe not a problem at all and I might be making a problem where there really is not one but a slight radius would make for a stronger receiver.

Still if someone were to think of an easy way to use a keyway broach it might be the way to go.

[JWT]

Beautiful job.

[BCRider]

I'm a big fan of proper use of good quality files. It's a shock to many that feel we can't make anything without CNC when they find out just how well the old hand tools perform. And in fact how with many one off jobs that the hand tools can do the job faster and just as well.

[oldred]

I have 26 files (Nicholson) not counting the riffler set (Grobet) and these are treated like precision tools, I made sleeves for each of them and would never just toss them in the tool box. The teeth on a new file can easily be chipped or dinged by banging against each other or another tool causing scratches in the work surface but worse it will also cause that spot on the file to load up which will cause gouges in the work surface and once a file is chipped/dinged it's good only for general sharpening use, mower blades etc. I have found the single cut mill files to be by far the most useful and while double cut files are supposed to be faster cutting at the expense of leaving a rougher surface finish I have found that (for this type work anyway) the single cut files actually cut faster, I suppose for general use where the teeth aren't cleaned nearly as often the double cut file might have a speed advantage but for the precision work we are talking about they are about useless IMHO. I have 16" down to 4" by 2" increments but the 8", 6" and 4" get used the most, those little 4" files are the cat's meow for finial fitting and surface finishing! I also keep a box of chalk on hand and keep the files well "chalked" during use, doing this and knocking out the chips (I also keep a hardwood block on the bench to tap the file on) every few strokes or every stroke when finishing a surface.

Sorry for rambling on about files, guess I was getting a little carried away there because files and their proper use are a subject by themselves and could easily take up a whole page. They are mostly overlooked and largely mis-understood tools that are extremely useful when used to their potential but too many folks fail to appreciate this mostly forgotten old time technology and what can be done with them preferring instead to rely on power tools which can quickly ruin a job beyond repair, files are are a real bargain for what they do! Enco has Nicholson files on sale for about half price and have had for the last few months.

www.use-enco.com

There are also free shipping codes for orders of as little as $25 if anyone is interested????