Your opinions please...

[DaveCampbell]

OK gentlemen, I need some opinions from you learned folks. The subject is case neck annealing.

1. Anneal or not? Why? Is it a question of extracting a few more loads from a case, or can you support an argument that annealing increases accuracy?

2. If you do anneal, how often do you do it? Why?

3. Finally, what method do you use and why?

Bonus question for anyone with a metallurgical science background: Explain why quenching brass that has been brought up to a glowing orange temperature anneals it rather than hardens it as it does with steel.

I'll be using this information in an upcoming article.

TIA,

Dave

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A pen in the hands of this president is more dangerous than the 80 million gun owners in America.

[country gent]

Case neck annealing helps maintain consistent neck tension on a loaded round. As cases are sized and fired the are constantly fexing and work hardining. ( similar to bending a wire back and forth till it breaks) This also affects how well the cases seal to the chamber. I normally anneal every 4-5 loadings or when cases start showing heavy fouling on the sides indicating they arnt sealing good. Heating and cooling non ferrous metals does soften it. The quench isnt actually needed but helps to keep the anneaaling from transfer into the case head. Case brass make up or alloy does this with the heating and cooling.
I have a lymann big dipper lead pot with a stand I made up in it. base plate stop plate and case plate with 12 1/2" holes around it. these are mounted on a long 1/4 so screw with nuts top and bottom of plates to set spacing. Pot is filled with very fine glass makers sand. I heat pot to 800* farinhieht and place case mouths 3/4" into the sand once ring is full I pull one drop in water and replace working around the ring in this manner. I normally do 100 or fewer cases at a setting. But this seems to be very consistent. A tourch works also heating to color change and dropping into water.
Cartridge brasses make up is such that quenching dosnt harden but does stop the heat from working into the case head softening the head. On steel alloyies with carbon and other alloying agents heating and slow cooling is required to anneal. The heating and annealing also acts as a stress relieving process for the brass.
Keeping brass as consistent as possible is a big plus. and on some of these BPCR cases extending life is a big plus when they are costing a couple bucks apiece.
If you want to prove disprove annealing take 2 "lots" of 10 cases each from the same lot of brass. one gets loaded only the other gets loaded and annealed every 3 loading. Shoot them everytime together keeping seperated into their respective groups. See which does the following 1) shoots tightest groups consistentl 2) seals chamber best consistently 3) has the longest life. You will be awhile doing this test as most cases will go for 10-15 firings. Watch for neck splits/ cracks. Watch when firing for very dirty cases.

[Gunlaker]

The brass will also work harden even if you only slip fit your bullets. With my Shiloh in .40-65 I slip fit the bullets into the fireformed cases. The bullets just barely slip into the fireformed cases. If I do not anneal them every couple of firings I run into a few cases out of every set of 50 that will no longer allow a bullet to be slip fit as they will have "sprung back" too far.

Consistent neck tension, whether slip fit, or not, is an important factor in getting low velocity variation.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

I'm not a metalurgist, but have a background in physics and mathematics. With respect to the annealing of anything, slow cooling promotes large grain structures and fast cooling prevents it. ( Interestingly in computer science we can use the these ideas to solve problems that are otherwise very hard to solve. ). Why brass would be different than steel is interesting and I'd love to see an answer.

Chris.

[Tom Myers]

OK gentlemen, I need some opinions from you learned folks. The subject is case neck annealing.
Bonus question for anyone with a metallurgical science background: Explain why quenching brass that has been brought up to a glowing orange temperature anneals it rather than hardens it as it does with steel.

I'll be using this information in an upcoming article.

TIA,

Dave

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

A pen in the hands of this president is more dangerous than the 80 million gun owners in America.

Please do not suggest in your article that the annealing process should bring the brass temperature up to a "glowing orange temperature"

A proper annealing temperature should only cause the brass to slightly change color. Anything hotter than this will soften the brass to the point of being incapeable of causing any neck tension

This is about the best explanation of cartridge case annealing that I have come across;

How to anneal (http://www.kenlightmfg.com/cartridgecaseannealer.htm)

Hope this helps.

[EDG]

Bold font below


OK gentlemen, I need some opinions from you learned folks. The subject is case neck annealing.

1. Anneal or not? Why? Is it a question of extracting a few more loads from a case, or can you support an argument that annealing increases accuracy?
Anneal Yes Why? Case life is improved significantly - not just a few loads but maybe 40 to 100 loads.
If a shooter discards each $1 case after 10 firings the next lot of $150 worth of brass is not needed by the shooter that gets 20 rounds per case by annealing. That does not include any work that was done to prep or form the brass. Often the primer pocket will just get loose from so many primers being seated.
Annealing improves the consistency of case mouth tension on the bullet.
Annealing also improves the seal between the chamber and the case. This prevents sooting of the case and gas leakage.

2. If you do anneal, how often do you do it? Why?
After any case forming and when I notice case necks getting hard. If I get a split case I will anneal all the cases. Why? Some of the cases cost over a $1.50 each. Then I maybe spend a few hours forming a lot of cases so I have labor cost (sweat equity) involved. Naturally I want the brass to be as immortal as the rifle.

3. Finally, what method do you use and why?
I use a propane torch because it is quick, convenient, cheap and effective. I can do it anywhere. My process was developed using a propane torch on reformed military brass decades ago. It was simple to adapt it to BPCR brass since I already had the practice on hundreds of cases.
Bonus question for anyone with a metallurgical science background: Explain why quenching brass that has been brought up to a glowing orange temperature anneals it rather than hardens it as it does with steel.
Brass can only be hardened by cold working. In the brass industry cold working is done by reducing the cross section (creating wrought brass) - making it thinner by rolling sheets or by cold drawing by pulling bar, rod and wire through successively smaller dies. Each time the brass is deformed (worked or bent) by the forming processes it gets harder.
Cartridge cases also get harder when worked. Cartridge case raw stock goes through the rolling mills and begins life as plate and then is rolled to sheet. The sheet is cut and stamped into slugs or cups. There may be intermediate annealing processes to keep the raw blanks soft enough to draw. The cups go through multiple drawing operations to make them a long deep cylinder. Then the formed rim is turned. Then they are necked and/or cut to length. Then the case mouth is annealed- or at least it should be. Not all manufacturers apply a final anneal. All the preceding was mentioned to show that the annealing process is integral to making of cartridge cases.

I'll be using this information in an upcoming article.

TIA,

Dave

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A pen in the hands of this president is more dangerous than the 80 million gun owners in America.

[mikeym1a]

I anneal brass that is to be reworked. I anneal brass that appears old. I use a torch and do it at night to see the color change. So far, I have had no problems with my brass. Oh, I made a head sync out of aluminum wire that encases the lower 1/3 of the case to help protect the case head, and I dip the case neck in water when the proper temp is reached. mikey

[smoked turkey]

I am not as experienced or as advanced as others here when it comes to annealing brass rifle cases. I have been doing it "low tech" for the past year or two. I would convey to my readers that it is not rocket science, and does not take a lot of time or expensive equipment. Your readers need to understand that they need to do this if they are serious about handloading enough to want to produce good ammunition. In my experience, annealing greatly lengthens the life of your brass. Considering the cost and lack of availability of some brass today it makes good sense to take care of this expensive item. In addition I find that annealed brass is easier to handload and I believe that better accuracy results from more uniform reloads. I am thinking of more uniform neck tension on the boolit or bullet will make for a more consistent powder burn.
I said low-tech annealing and here is my process. I use a cheap propane torch with the flame set to a sharp point. I hold the case in my bare hand during the process. Believe me you will get the time required at the flame tip down pretty fast. If not you will be the first to know when it is too hot. I don't anneal in a dark room because I don't heat the brass to anything like a glow. What I look for is for the shoulder/neck junction to just start to change color to a pale blue (never red). I do a consistent count for each case. Usually a fairly fast count up to seven or eight while turning the case about 180 degrees one way (say clockwise) and back (ccw) while counting and watching for the case to change color. My method gives you two control points: time and color. I usually dip the top half of the case in a nearby pail of cold water to stop the heat from going any further up toward the case head. I then drop the case on a towel or some other soft landing point. Thats it. I think you need to try annealing for yourself before you write about it and I think you will agree with the others here that it is beneficial and not difficult to accomplish. Most of all you don't want to anneal any where but the case neck/shoulder area. If you anneal too close to the case head you have made that case unsafe to use. Let us see a copy of your article if your are allowed to do so. Hope this helps.

[DaveCampbell]

Thanks to all who replied. In the interest of full disclosure, I have done some annealing, although until yesterday it had been more than three decades. The purposes of my inquiries were to get the most current thoughts on the subject, as well as methodology that may have made the task easier or the results better.

FWIW, I used the old "set-'em-up-n-a-cake-pan-heat-'em-up-with-a-torch-and-knock-'em-over" method. It seems to have worked pretty well, but, of course, I learned a few things (translation: I made a couple of boo-boos). I don't have a propane torch, just MAPP and acetylene. MAPP, of course, has a lot more heat in it, and I learned to keep it moving fast to prevent curling case mouths. The other thing I learned is that it is a P.I.T.A. to try to run a camera's remote shutter with my left hand while running the torch in my right hand. I eventually got a more-or-less useable image for the blog (which I'll post here when it goes live, probably within a day or two), but I'll have to break down and get an assistant or a model when I photograph it for a feature.

Thanks again for your help gentlemen!

Dave

[DaveCampbell]

As promised, here's the blog. I will do a followup article in the future as part of a handloading series:

http://www.americanhunter.org/blogs/annealing

[Tom Myers]

As promised, here's the blog. I will do a followup article in the future as part of a handloading series:

http://www.americanhunter.org/blogs/annealing

A quote from my previous post:


Please do not suggest in your article that the annealing process should bring the brass temperature up to a "glowing orange temperature"

A proper annealing temperature should only cause the brass to slightly change color. Anything hotter than this will soften the brass to the point of being incapeable of causing any neck tension.

A quote from your article:


Heat the top 1/2 inch of the cases with a torch as evenly as possible; when it glows orange, remove the heat and tip the case into the water to cool

I could be mistaken, but my in my experience and, from the comments of others, heating the case neck to even a dull red glow makes it too soft.

A quote from:

Cartridge Case Annealing with the BC-1000 Annealer



When, why, how and if to anneal



By Ken Light




there should be a light bluish color which develops at the shoulder or a little below it, while the shine remains on the case body.

[dragon813gt]

If it glows orange you've most likely softened the case head. Even w/ a heat sink the heat migrates quickly from shoulder to case head. I don't understand doing it in the dark, didn't read the blog so I don't know if this was mentioned. Chuck up a socket in a cordless drill and place a case in it. Slowly rotate the case in the flame. You can watch the case change color to a dull blue and the color line creeps down the shoulder. W/ practice, very little, you can consistently anneal cases the same every time.