.22 LR Duplication

[richhodg66]

Been toying with doing this a while now. Was going to begin working with a Savage 219 in .22 Hornet to do this, but have recently picked up a Mossberg MVP Predator in .223 and kind of think it may be easier to get good results from and would make a better hunting rifle.

I have the Lyman 225415 and 225438 molds and quite a few different kinds of pistol powders. Most of the cast load data I see for the .223 is for velocities a lot higher than a .22 LR. The latest Handloader magazine I have has an article on just this topic and they recommend the 225438 and four grains of blue Dot for 1100ish FPS.

Anyone have a recommended load? I really want the accuracy and terminal performance of a .22 LR in squirrels and such if I can.

[FLHTC]

I'm using 3.5 grains of Red Dot in my Hornet with a Bator, which is quite close to the 225438 but my load is over 1,000 fps. I haven't shot it over the chronograph it yet but that's soon to happen. I'm getting 1.5" groups at 100 yards so my searching for a good cast load for the Hornet has stopped. Perhaps the same load in the 223 case will give you what you are after. I don't know if Red Dot is position sensitive but it occupies well over 50% of the Hornet case anyway.

[chsparkman]

Jim from Floyd VA was the expert on this. Look up some of his old posts. I experimented with Green Dot under the 225438 with good success, although my load of 5.7 grains must be faster than you're after. It really tore up a couple of squirrels last fall. My next test will be with smaller charges of Bullseye this summer.

[richhodg66]

Thanks for the tip.

I also appreciate the .22 Hornet input, I'd like to do the same thing with that Savage 219.

[TCLouis]

I am playing with 225415 with PROMO.

5 gr shot pretty well in 1:9 gun, 5.6 was like buckshot pattern.

I quit there as I also had access to a 1:12 barrel for testing.

6.0 seemed to group pretty well in the 1:12 barrel but had flyers that opened it up to 3" at 50. This load gives about 7-8" of penetration in pretty firm soil at 110 yards, That loading reduced a small limestone rock to gravel in a puff of limestone at that distance.

The meplat on the 225415 worked as people say to give about 1.5" opening in wet clay at 50 yards and there is just a button of lead (10-15 grains) left on the gas check at the end of that tunnel.

I plan to size and lube a bunch of 415s and 462s I bought and try them in the near future

May go on up in powder weight/velocity, but this is 22 Mag territory and about all I really want.

Will drop back to 5.0 tomorrow and see what it does in the 1:12 barrel. Velocity should be in the 1400s.

After what I red here, I have some Blue Dot sitting around gathering dust, will have to see what it will do.

[WILCO]

The latest Handloader magazine I have has an article on just this topic.....

I had seen and read that article. It vindicated my thoughts and actions regarding air and centerfire rifles with cast boolits.

[35remington]

That would eliminate all your candidate powders above save for WST and Bullseye.

[kopperl]

Odd you should post this now. Spent yesterday by a tank poping turtles with with a 219 in K hornet. 40 gr cast over 3.5 gr Unique. Shoots a a head size group @ about 75-100 yards.
Rifle has a very hitec sight-Weaver K4.

[roverboy]

I don't have a chronograph yet. But, I've tried 55 gr. cast in my .223 with 4.5 gr. Unique, and 55 gr. with 5 and 7 gr. Herco. I imagine the Herco loads are way faster than .22lr. I got great accuracy though.

[richhodg66]

Odd you should post this now. Spent yesterday by a tank poping turtles with with a 219 in K hornet. 40 gr cast over 3.5 gr Unique. Shoots a a head size group @ about 75-100 yards.
Rifle has a very hitec sight-Weaver K4.

What bullet are you using in your 219? I bought this one without checking it out carefully and it has a pretty lengthy rough patch in the bore, so I've been dealing with that for now, but hope to have it up and running soon and will try that loading. Are you using gas checks?

[richhodg66]

Thanks for the input on the .223, guys. I'm pretty sure I can come up with a good squirrel load for this MVP. I'll then try a coyote load with cast moving faster.

[Johnny Boy]

Timing was great on the thread, richhodg66. Iv'e been kicking the same question around about the 22 hornet, 221 fireball and couple of others. Smartest thing for me is probably the 223 MVP with 16 or 18 in heavy barrel. Would play well with the lower velocity of the cast rounds all the way down to subsonic if desired. The 1:9 twist on the barrel may not like the heavier (>68gr jbs in the NATO) rounds if that matters.

Heck if I can't decide I may just buy a bow for now and delay the firearm purchase for a few months.

[richhodg66]

I took the new MVP Predator to the range with some jacketed loads today for the first time. Couldn't zero it, the scope that came with it obviously has serious internal issues (it's a cheapie anyway). So, went out this evening and picked up a Leupold. Can't get back out tomorrow, but I'll try again this week. It's a neat little rifle and I have this feeling the .223 is gonna be easier to load and deal with than the .22 Hornet, but that Savage 219 is such a trim, nice pointing little rifle. I've always liked the whole Rook Rifle concept, the 219 comes pretty close.

What part of low country S.C. are you in?

[FLHTC]

That would eliminate all your candidate powders above save for WST and Bullseye.

;).......you read my mind

[FLHTC]

I use an RCBS but with cast rifle loads, I weigh every one. I haven't seen a powder measure that would throw flake consistent enough for 22 caliber cast loads. It just seemed odd to single Red Dot out, when any and all flake powder will meter the same.

[FLHTC]

I didn't think this was a contest about who owns more powder measures. Flake powder, whether it's fine or coarse doesn't fall flat, every time a charge is metered. The OP wanted accuracy and dropping a charge from a measure, isn't the best solution to achieve it. I understand how Red Dot is a coarse flake since I use it :groner: but even though a finer flake throws better than a coarse flake, they both throw the same.....inconsistent. It's fine to use them in your 45ACP by throwing charges, but in a small capacity 22 caliber case and using cast bullets, throwing charges of flake powder won't cut it for optimum accuracy.
Now i just weighed out a tenth of a grain of 4756 and it occupies less than a 1/4" of area on my scale pan and it amounts to 30 flakes. My powder measure with the pistol metering screw, has a half inch of surface area, multiplied by the depth needed for the desired charge. Now what is the likelyhood of every flake falling in the correct position to maintain the correct charge, if 30 flakes equal 1/10 of a grain?
now do you see my point about all flake powder acting the same? A 1/10 of a grain will substantially change the impact point of small capacity 22 caliber cases and cast bullets.

[cabezaverde]

Jim from Floyd VA was the expert on this. Look up some of his old posts. I experimented with Green Dot under the 225438 with good success, although my load of 5.7 grains must be faster than you're after. It really tore up a couple of squirrels last fall. My next test will be with smaller charges of Bullseye this summer.

What happened to Jim? I have not seen any posts from him lately.

[chsparkman]

I don't know but I wish he would come back.

[FLHTC]

What matters to me is consistent results. Having a variety of measures to compare gives me the opportunity to achieve said results. My Redding with pistol chamber will reliably throw sub 2gr charges, and will only throw ~10gr max.. I suspect that a Lyman 55 can be made to do the same, but my first choice is the Redding because of its repeatable micrometer. Fine grained flake or flattened ball (WST,WSF, WW231, etc) CAN be thrown reliably with a good measure.

Now that you've weighed 1/10gr 4756, do the same with Red Dot and count 'em. Notice how large the Red Dot flakes are in comparison to 4756.....4756 meters better because the flakes are finer. That is the same reason that ball powders measure better than extruded powders like 4831 or 4350. The smaller they are, the more easily they flow and compact. The reason that lots of folks like Red Dot is because its cheap, bulky, and cheap. While the bulkiness may have some usefulness in filling space in voluminous cases, I have no attachment to it. If you want to use Red Dot, you don't need my permission. It was only my suggestion to the OP to use a fine grained powder to eliminate the hassle of weighing charges.

I'd love to use 296 for a low velocity cast load in the Hornet but it simply won't shoot good. The reason I like Red Dot is because it performs well with the cast bullet I'm using but you seem to know otherwise. I already know how many flakes are in 1/10 of a grain, and I didn't need your permission to find out. I can tell by your comments that you don't reload for accuracy but you really should acquire an attachment to load density or "Bulkiness", as you put it. Also, weighing charges isn't a hassle if you're loading for accuracy, it's just part of the process.
Personally, I use the components that work, not just those that meter better than others. I'm interested in hitting my target, not just pulling the trigger because I can load em' up real fast.

It's not my first rodeo.......the other wall is bullets
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n190/Thompson-Fan/20140528_111528.jpg (http://s112.photobucket.com/user/Thompson-Fan/media/20140528_111528.jpg.html)

[tja6435]

3.7gr Trail Boss with 50gr bullets is around 1050fps

[35remington]

Excess, 700X is even worse than Red Dot because the flakes curl substantially, and the other mentioned ones have a large flake size as well, said by me because I meter them all. Call Red Dot terrible metering and Green Dot, Unique, Herco, 700X, Solo 1000 and the rest all stand right there with it. In other words, your whole list save for two. I realize I threw a few others in there but it makes my point.

Of the list you have, Bullseye and WST are the only truly "good" metering ones, yet in some measures the "terrible" ones will do with reasonable uniformity because the drum diameter is not too small. Too small a diameter is bad for squibs or partially filled cavities....the Lee Pro Auto Disk does not take well to below 3.5-4 grain charges with any of them but does reasonably well when cavities are larger. The problem with drum diameter (like the Lee Perfect Powder measure) is that if large the shear area is too big, so while the drops are reliable in terms of avoiding squibs they run to less consistency than a finer powder. I regularly throw 3 grains charges of Red Dot through my Lee Perfect with 100 percent reliability in terms of avoiding squibs but with admittedly larger charge variation than Bullseye. This doesn't show up on the chronograph as much as you'd expect.

In other works, don't go too low with large flakes in charge weight no matter what you have. Most of your list of powders are large flake.

If you're gonna suggest a good metering powder then list the ones that truly are. Your list is far too inclusive. I mean.....Green Dot? 700X? You can't be serious. If you're going to give Red Dot the finger, the inclusion of the others is mystifying to me. Clays may be marginally better due to its greater web thickness but it's no Bullseye in terms of metering. Not even close.

[sthwestvictoria]

The most recent Handloader magazine has a six page article all about this.
Although the only cast data is given for 22hornet, not .223
However obviously people are thinking about this same topic.

[kopperl]

No gas checks. I'm rearranging my shop right now so Icant get to the mold. It is a lee 6 cavity plain base

[rhead]

You do not have to use a .22 cal rifle to get the same results. Good accuracy and down range results can be obtained in 30 cal rifles also. Boolits from round balls to 100 grains work well. Also wad cutters in .357 rifles. You do use a little more lead.

They are all fun and effective.

[FLHTC]

Yeah, ya got me pegged. I do NOT weigh boolits or powder charges, and haven't in many years. I'll tell ya what, John Kort Is having a cast boolit silhouette match June 6-8 at Ridgway Rifle Club, Ridgway, Pa. Its 3 days of shootin' steel on the 500m silhouette range, and some guys are a bit more adventurous and play on the benchrest varmint rails 850-1000 yards. I'll be packin' an off the shelf 1967 vintage Rem700 30-06 with a 6x, and a sporterized 2-43 Remington 03-A3(original barrel) with 10x. Ya gotta knock 'em down to count, cast boolits only. Bring your gear and strut yer stuff!

Ridgeway is one helluva hike for me but it does sound fun and thanks for the invitation. Reading airport is closer and just as much fun.
http://maam.org/maamwwii.html

[richhodg66]

The most recent Handloader magazine has a six page article all about this.
Although the only cast data is given for 22hornet, not .223
However obviously people are thinking about this same topic.


Not sure if we got the same magazine, but in the table with results, the author shows the Lyman 225438 in his Remington 700 .223 as giving 1187 FPS with 4.0 grains of Blue Dot and grouping at 1.01 inch at 50 yards. This sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. In a perfect world, I'd be able to do this without gas checks, but I may have to switch to some other mold as I don't want to modify mine.

[gnoahhh]

Rich, I would suggest you grab a Lee .22 Bator mold from Midway while they're still available. (They seem to only run sporadic batches of them.) I've settled on that bullet out of my small capacity .22s. It edges out the 225415 and 225438 in my guns. In the Hornet, 1.5 gr. Bullseye for .22LR performance, 3.5 gr. Unique for a little hotter, and 6.0gr. 2400 for near .22RFM performance, all with the Bator bullet. (And yes I meter my charges, with an ancient Belding&Mull, and the flake powder loads give equal accuracy as with the easy-metering 2400- ± 5/8" @ 50 yards. 'Tain't rocket science.)

[richhodg66]

Gary, you're right, I'm gonna order a Bator mold today. I've been hearing too many good things about them not to.

Will older twist .22 Hornets easily handle a bullet that long? That 1.5 grain Bullseye load sound like the winner if I can get it to shoot well in this 219.

[gnoahhh]

Gary, you're right, I'm gonna order a Bator mold today. I've been hearing too many good things about them not to.

Will older twist .22 Hornets easily handle a bullet that long? That 1.5 grain Bullseye load sound like the winner if I can get it to shoot well in this 219.

It is only marginally longer than the 225438, so it should stabilize ok. I can't speak to slow twist Hornets as the last two I had, including my present one, were fast twist rifles (1-8½) that digest anything.

[FLHTC]

It is only marginally longer than the 225438, so it should stabilize ok. I can't speak to slow twist Hornets as the last two I had, including my present one, were fast twist rifles (1-8½) that digest anything.

The Bator does fine in a 1 in 10 twist but the 219 is most likely 1 in 14 or even 16. That's too slow for the bator

[richhodg66]

I figured it might be, but ordered one anyway. I have a couple of .223s, one is brand new, so I'm sure it has the fast twist. Truthfully, I think that MVP Predator is going to be better for my intended purpose than the 219, the 219 is just so graceful and points so nicely.

Kind of looking forward to the Bator mold, if it's like the other Lee six cavity molds I have, I'll probably just cast a few sessions with it and that will last me years before I pick it up again.

[Larry Gibson]

I use Bullseye for .22LR duplication loads in the 22 Hornet and the .223 with 225415 and 225428 cast of softer alloy such as 20-1 alloy but have used a lot of range alloy and COWWs + 2% tin mixed at 50/50 with lead. I AC them, GC them and either shoot "as cast" after TLing them in LLA or size and lube at .225 with a soft 50/50 lube.

In the 22 Hornet I use 1.5 gr to duplicate subsonic .22LR and 2 gr to duplicate HV .22LR with either bullet.

In the .223 I use 1.8 gr to duplicate standard/subsonic .22LR, 2.5 gr to duplicate HV .22LR and 4 gr to duplicate Hypervelocity .22LR.

I mostly use the 225415 because it is a better killer on small game. Exception being if cast soft and HP'd with the 1/16" Forster HP tool either is quite effective on small game when cast of 16-1 alloy and pushed at 1500+ fps with the 4 gr load in the .223.

I use Bullseye because it has proven to be the best powder for use in such low level loads. I have tried all the rest mentioned and then some. Bullseye always gives the best ignition and uniform burn which translates to the best accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[Johnny Boy]

richhodg66, your profile picture looks like the PCG range. If so must be close.
I'm in CHS and teach at The Citadel in the Civil & Env Eng Dept

How is the MVP working out?

[richhodg66]

Small world. I graduated from The Citadel in 1988, was just in Charleston earlier this year for the 25th anniversary. I live in Kansas now and that is where that range is.

I took the MVP out and it turns out the scope that came on it wouldn't zero. I would have replaced it soon anyway, it was a cheap one. Bought a Leupold and I'll get it back out to the range, I want to do some jacketed work first before starting cast in that rifle.

[Bogone]

I use Bullseye for .22LR duplication loads in the 22 Hornet and the .223 with 225415 and 225428 cast of softer alloy such as 20-1 alloy but have used a lot of range alloy and COWWs + 2% tin mixed at 50/50 with lead. I AC them, GC them and either shoot "as cast" after TLing them in LLA or size and lube at .225 with a soft 50/50 lube.

In the 22 Hornet I use 1.5 gr to duplicate subsonic .22LR and 2 gr to duplicate HV .22LR with either bullet.

In the .223 I use 1.8 gr to duplicate standard/subsonic .22LR, 2.5 gr to duplicate HV .22LR and 4 gr to duplicate Hypervelocity .22LR.

I mostly use the 225415 because it is a better killer on small game. Exception being if cast soft and HP'd with the 1/16" Forster HP tool either is quite effective on small game when cast of 16-1 alloy and pushed at 1500+ fps with the 4 gr load in the .223.

I use Bullseye because it has proven to be the best powder for use in such low level loads. I have tried all the rest mentioned and then some. Bullseye always gives the best ignition and uniform burn which translates to the best accuracy.

Larry Gibson
Did you ever try unique? The reason I ask i need to work up such aload for a 223 and I have lots of unique powder.
Thanks
Charlie

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, I did try and do use Unique. It is excellent for 22 Magnum level loads but does not burn as efficiently when loaded down to 22LR levels as does Bullseye, especially in the .223.

Larry Gibson

[richhodg66]

Larry, how necessary is the gas check at the 2 grains of Bullseye level? I would really like for a mild load like that to be a cheap and easy as possible, if I could cast those 225438s and not have to size or seat gas checks, it would be a plus.

[Alferd Packer]

The VARMINT magazine by Wolfe publishing is out and has an article on cast bullets and their best load is seven grains of Unique under the 55 grain cast bullet by RCBS.
Of course its not .22 LR duplication-in fact its .22 magnum at over 2,000 FPS and they of course have to use gas checks .
I too have always used 1-2 grains of Bullseye and a few grains more if you need the velocity. -Larry Gibson's recommended load .
I prefer the quiet , cat's sneeze, loads in .223, 30-06 ,30-30, 303 Br. all with cast bullets rifle and pistol-sans gas check.
I love this thread and just wanted to mention the Mag and article-CHEAP SHOTS- for anyone interested and for the shooter wanting Unique loads.
This is probably a bit off topic here because these loads are above .22 LR velocity and are very much louder, but they have a nice table of loads for.223 using TAC and 4198 along with other powders of that speed. Also mention of 6mm and 25-06 cast too, but mainly .223.
Nothing about trying to make the loads work an AR15/M16 , look elsewhere for that
Anyway the magazine is 7.99 plus tax at Books-a -million and you could just look at the load table and article in the store.
I bought it because they had other articles I like. Anyway- just FYI.

steve

[Alferd Packer]

For richodge66,
Wait for Larry's answer, I don't mean to answer for him.

I don't use gas checks and never have trouble with leading or with accuracy.
You must lube the bullet however, and 50/50 vaseline and paraffin melted, or even just some Crisco shortening wiped in the grease grooves will suffice, just keep the base of the bullet clean by giving it a wipe with a kleenex or paper towel. These are just with the 1-2 grain Bullseye loads.
I too try to keep the loads as cheap as possible.
I just use a finger to apply the Crisco or any cheap solid shortening when I'm making up a few Bullseye loads without gas checks.
I have shot these loads in my basement for years and the neighbors are none the wiser.I use bundles of newspaper, old phone books and old magazines. I dig out the lead and recast it .

steve

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, how necessary is the gas check at the 2 grains of Bullseye level? I would really like for a mild load like that to be a cheap and easy as possible, if I could cast those 225438s and not have to size or seat gas checks, it would be a plus.

Actually I don't often recommend shooting GC'd bullets sans GCs but the 225428 in the 22 Hornet is the exception. If one takes care to cast quality bullets, TL in LLA, let dry thoroughly and then load "as cast" they shoot very respectable out to 50 yards, perhaps farther, if the velocity is kept sub sonic. I found right about 1050 fps can be quite accurate, especially in the slower 14 & 16" twist Hornets.

Larry Gibson

[richhodg66]

That's good to know as I'm not looking to make mine into anything but a .22 LR. Thanks for the help, gonna try some tomorrow.

[richhodg66]

Well, I just got back from the range. This is the first time I have shot the little 219 for groups and while it was nothing to write home about, I'm not unpleased for a first time out.

The load was the little bullet we've been talking about sized to .225 and lubed with LLA, two grains of Bullseye and a Tula small pistol primer. Very, very mild and quiet, I shot 20 rounds of this. More flyers than I like, but except for the first round from a clean barrel, all stayed in 2" at 25 yards and most were in an inch or so. I'm going to see if some unsized ones will chamber OK and try that, I also plan on figuring out the seating depth for optimal accuracy.

Today's shooting was with the stock open sights, which are good open sights but the rifle came with a side mount already installed and I have a neat, very small Burris 4x I plan to install before next time. I think I'll start with one grain and work up in .1 grain increments until I find a sweet spot for groups. If I can get this to group consistently in an inch at 50 yards or close to it, there are some squirrels that are gonna be in serious trouble this October.

One thing I have learned so far from this project; I got a set of Lee dies in a trade for the Hornet a long time ago amongst some other stuff. Turns out there was a full length sizer and a neck sizer only collet type of die and two different seaters. I am a fan of the collet neck sizer die now, having never used one before, and think my brass should last a very long time with these kind of loads using it.

I'll have to try the Crisco lube sometime, I've used it in muzzle loaders with good results, never thought about using it in smokeless.

[Alferd Packer]

Just looking back.
This is a most informative thread and though five years old has something for for the latest shooters and reloaders added to the growing ranks.

[trapper9260]

I have use this one to do what the OP is about .

http://www.weatherby.dk/rlc.htm

[richhodg66]

I never did get to the .223 with cast, but have used a couple of Hornets with two different loads now to great success squirrel hunting.

Gonna try these in a .218 Bee when I get around to it.

[Reverend Al]

Going to be doing something similar. I bought a Ballard at auction that was supposed to be chambered in .22 LR, but when I got it in hand it turned out that it's actually got a .22 liner and is chambered in .218 Bee. I don't want to shoot high pressure .218 Bee loads in this old cast action Ballard so first I'm going to buy a .218 Bee to .22 LR cartridge adaptor and fire a few rounds through it to see if the existing barrel liner is a "shooter". If it does shoot OK then I can always work up some loads with cast boolits in .218 Bee brass at .22 LR velocities and pressures.

https://i.imgur.com/qvEuI6E.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pJStz7I.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Udo2nTW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ncf7ih0.jpg

[richhodg66]

Since this thread started, I picked up a nice .218 Bee. I see no reason why it wouldn't respond just as well to these kinds of loads as my Hornets have.

Nice rifle, by the way. I think you'll have a lot of fun with that.

[Alferd Packer]

To be
or not to be.
Now I want a Bee.
Looking for one.

[charlie b]

That is a cute little rifle. I always liked single shots.

[fcvan]

2 years ago I picked up an H&R handi that had sat in a shop for many years. 24" barrel, 1 in 12 twist. I have not shot 22lr duplication loads as yet, but my 223 loads with an NOE 225-62 RN powder coated gives me tack driver accuracy at 2450 FPS. I have the Lyman 225-415 which shot very well in my AR15 and Mini 14 but those tiny gas checks are a pain. I have a gas check maker but the shank on the 415 is too short/the gas checks too long to seat fully. The 415 shot very well with gas checks purchased from a member here. I want to try a 22lr duplication load with the 415 ASBBPCd without the check using Bullseye. When I do, I will have to post the results with pictures.