Trail Boss=sr4759 ?

[monge]

Read an article saying trail boss will do everything 4759 will do and better. What do you guys think running low on 4759 and they are not making it eneymore!

[44man]

I sure hope there is an answer, 4759 is my favorite powder.
I can't find Trail Boss so I can't find out.

[EdS]

Each time that I see a "new" powder that looks interesting on paper (or on line) I check its burning rate in the charts. It's hard to find one that is not very similar in burning rate to older, familiar powders. I think most of the newer offerings feature improved temperature stability or cleaner burning characteristics. With June just around the corner, I'm wondering if/when we may start to actually see some powder on the dealers shelf. Happy Memorial Day Weekend, Ed

[dragon813gt]

Any link to the article? SR4759 is usually around H110/W296 on the burn rate charts and I didn't think Trail Boss was that slow.

[monge]

the article is in the june Handloader mag back page "Supply ,Demand and Resupply"

[Nobade]

They are foolin'. Maybe by comparing velocities in revolvers that statement would be true, but in rifles it most certainly is not. TB is super fast burning, burns clean, makes quite a bit of pressure for the speed generated. In handguns, 4759 is not going to burn clean, or make very much speed since you can't get enough burned before it gets to the end of the barrel. Put that same ammo in a rifle and the TB loads won't change speed and the 4759 loads will be a whole lot faster. There are better powders than either of those for normal revolver loads.

-Nobade

[monge]

your right just checked burn rate chart trail boss is 19, 4759 is 66 what up does hodgdon know what they are talking about To quote article ' In fact according to Hodgdon Ballistician Ron Reiber, there is no job 4759 can do that Trail boss will not do better, including smidgens of smokeless used to liven up duplex black powder loads."

[chsparkman]

I'll try them both in my 45-70 this summer.

[Nobade]

They say to never compress Trail Boss. It is somewhat delicate and easily crushed. Now they tell you to put it under black powder as a kicker? There is no way I would use TB as a kicker for duplex loads. I think they are trying to justify not selling 4759 anymore, those two powders have drastically different uses. Just try loading your 30-06 to 1900 fps with Trail Boss and see what happens...

-Nobade

[dragon813gt]

I thought you wanted to compress TB? I don't shoot it but I thought the idea was to fill the case full. And a slightly compressed charge was best?

[dubber123]

I thought you wanted to compress TB? I don't shoot it but I thought the idea was to fill the case full. And a slightly compressed charge was best?

NOT what I was told by the company on the phone. They have always said to never compress it. The flakes crush, and it really changes the burn rate, and not in a good direction. For straight wall cases, they say to mark where the base of your boolit will be, fill a case to that level and weigh it. 70% of that weight is your start charge. You can then work upwards, but don't compress. I've used a fair bit of it, and is sure seems like a fast powder to me. I find it to have very limited applications.

[dragon813gt]

That's why I was asking. I don't use it but would have done my research if I decided to.

[gtgeorge]

TB looks like little tiny cheerios or donuts and is not supposed to be compressed.

[Seancass]

NOT what I was told by the company on the phone. They have always said to never compress it. The flakes crush, and it really changes the burn rate, and not in a good direction. For straight wall cases, they say to mark where the base of your boolit will be, fill a case to that level and weigh it. 70% of that weight is your start charge. You can then work upwards, but don't compress. I've used a fair bit of it, and is sure seems like a fast powder to me. I find it to have very limited applications.

This is all fact. Except it works perfectly in every possible application, as long as you are only looking for a few fps and absolutely no power. Otherwise, it's magical and I love this powder for super light plinking loads.

[Bent Ramrod]

Trail Boss will most definitely not do anything that SR-4759 will do! The only thing both have in common is that they can squirt a bullet out of a gun. Any further similarities are advertising hype and hope.

I tried Trail Boss in three pistol calibers and two rifle calibers in in no case could loadings be made as accurate as those with the denser powders (including 4759) I was using originally. It looks like even MP-5744 is not a substitute, accuracy-wise, for 4759 in some of my guns with cast boolits. 4759 seems to be superior to other powders even as a priming charge in BP duplex loads, at least for me.

The only virtue of Trail Boss is that it is extremely difficult for a careless reloader to blow up his gun with it, no matter how inattentive or incompetent he is. I am just waiting for the 1-in-4.5-billion who who is idiot-proof proof enough to accomplish the job despite the engineers' best efforts.

I'm going to be in a world of hurt when 4759 is discontinued. On the other hand, it was discontinued once before and brought back "by popular demand," so perhaps there is hope.

And to add insult to injury, they are also eliminating 4756, which has become my "clean alternate" to Unique.:cry:

[monge]

How can they print this in well respected publication?

[wrench man]

If there's a better powder for cast boolits in the 45 Colt (revolvers) I'd like to see it??, in the 1873 Colt (Uberti) it's a fine a shooter as any revolver I've EVER shot!?, however in the 1894 Marlin 45 Colt it does kinda suck?, I would like a better powder for the rifle?

Everything I've ever read also states to NEVER compress it, you can run the case full as long as it's not compressed.

[dragon813gt]

How can they print this in well respected publication?

Because apparently the information is coming from Hodgdon. When the manufacturer is saying it the magazine has to take them at their word.

[Hammerhead]

4759 is an excellent powder for pushing light bullets of all flavors up to 2000 fps in 30-30. Trail Boss will not do that.
I have 3/4 lb. of 4759 and I'm getting nervous.

But nothing works better in the 45 Colt for target loads than TB.

[357Mag]

Monge -

Howdy !

No.... my experience w/ IMR 4759 & " Trailboss " shows that they are/were mos'definitely NOT the same... or in other words.....one does not surplant the other.

Using .35 Rem ( Marlin M-336 LXR ) loads for example, I could fill the case w/ Trailboss under Rem 150 "J-word "; and pressure would still be fine using 14.5gr.
By even rough comparison, a max charge of IMR4759 under the same bullet displayed much more oomph, w/ the case never getting close to full
Certainly, the max load points I found for these 2 powders under 140-180gr bullets ( and a 195gr boolit ) showed the IMR4759 loads to be " flatter " shooting.

Each power has its own bennies.


With regards,
357Mag

[FergusonTO35]

Oddly I think I've seen more 4759 in stock around here recently than ever.

[35remington]

Comparing Trail Boss to 4759 is like comparing Red Dot to IMR 4227. Entirely different burn speeds, with 4759 delivering superior cast bullet accuracy in rifles due to a lower pressure for a given velocity. Trail Boss is useful for mouse fart loads while 4759 cannot do that job, but for all other cast bullet use 4759 has given me better accuracy.

Reiber is saying that because they are discontinuing 4759. In no way are they comparable. No way whatsoever, and one is not a substitute for the other. For cast bullet use in terms of accuracy, give me 4759 every time.

[dtknowles]

Because apparently the information is coming from Hodgdon. When the manufacturer is saying it the magazine has to take them at their word.

No, No, No, if the manufacturer says it you can say they said it but before you go rubber stamping their marketing spiel you should do some testing of your own. I know, you can't count on Magazines to really evaluate products, sad. sad, sad. Who can you trust but your buddies here?

I bought a jug of Trail Boss without doing my homework, oh by the way you do not get a pound in a jug more like 12 ounces or some such. Anyway, I bought it to use in my Smith and Wesson Top Break revolvers as I shoot very light loads and though that a bulky powder would be just the ticket, the marketing sounded good. I check the loading data after I bought the powder and saw that the pressures were going to be higher with Trail Boss than what I was getting using Red Dot. The point was to get to fire these cool old guns without hurting them or myself so I am sticking with Red Dot and will find some other way to use up the Trail Boss.

Tim

[TCLouis]

All of this gives me an answer to question posed to me by a fellow shooter . . .

Why did you buy 12 pounds or 4759 . . .

"Cause I will need it and there will not be any more, that's why."

[9.3X62AL]

Both 4759 and 4756 going the way of 8-track tape decks, eh? More examples of the manufacturers that support our hobby arranging things for their convenience & comfort, and not for the benefit of the customer base. They even have ek spurts lying in print to pimp their reduced-spectrum offerings. I get more annoyed with the flock of hustlers that purport to support this hobby field every day.

[dtknowles]

Both 4759 and 4756 going the way of 8-track tape decks, eh? More examples of the manufacturers that support our hobby arranging things for their convenience & comfort, and not for the benefit of the customer base. They even have ek spurts lying in print to pimp their reduced-spectrum offerings. I get more annoyed with the flock of hustlers that purport to support this hobby field every day.

Blaming the manufacturers for availability problems is pointless. Whether it is 22 LR or your favorite powder, for them it is a business decision and while they don't always make the best decisions it is their prerogative. They care about us a continuing customers and some of the people at the Manufacturers are hobbyists too, but they are going to go with the product lines that produce the best return on investment and that is not always going to make everyone happy. Look at all the obsolete cartridges, sometimes you have to cut the poor sellers. The guy who wants them will be mad and you know it but hey that's business.

Tim

[9.3X62AL]

Maybe so, but as a consumer I have prerogatives as well, and a number of those are already getting exercised in ways counter to the interests of suppliers that continue being unhelpful.

[dh2]

I have used SR4759 most often to load my .375 H&H with a 235 Gr. round nose to give results closer to the .375 Win. it dose the job very well,
But trail boss is advertised as fill ANY case to the bullet and start with 70% of that.
I am pretty sure a .375 H&H case 70% full of SR4759 would be a lot more BANG than I want to deal with.
if you can fill any case 70% full with out worry of over pressure it must be some weak to put out this information in a law suite happy world.
I have a few pounds of SR4759 and looking for more and some more IMR4198 before it is gone for ever
I have a bottle of trail boss that was a last resort for my 9.3x62mm Mauser trying cast bullets but ended up using H4895.
I am waiting on more data to be published for the trail boss before I try a case 70%

[PAT303]

I use more TB than anything else and when used for what it was designed for it is an excellent powder,saying it replaces others and does everything is a bit far fetched.TB seems to be one of those products that has as many admirers as haters. Pat

[9.3X62AL]

Trail Boss is a useful powder in its own right and within its described performance envelope--low velocity plain-based cast bullet loads in rifles and revolvers. I like it for that use. I find the "square peg/round hole" attempt by the maker to be disingenuous and poorly-advised.

[Ole]

I use SR4759 to push 350 RD bullets out of my Marlin Guide Gun at 1700fps.

I'm 100% certain that wouldn't be possible to do safely using Trail Boss.

[tja6435]

I use Trail Boss in 38spl and 44spl loads for my buddy's kids to learn to shoot revolvers with. A nice, light load that has very little recoil (seriously in the 22lr/22mag recoil range) allows the shooters to learn how the trigger works in double action, how to hold the revolver, sight picture, etc. All things more important to focus on while initially learning instead of being hesitant due to recoil excessive for their strength and/or skill level. Awesome powder for plinking and subsonic rifle loads

[John Boy]

Read an article saying trail boss will do everything 4759 will do and better.
Sure would like to have the link to that article and the author and the caliber of the firearm!

Burn Rates
19. IMR, Co Trail Boss
66. IMR, Co SR 4759
Comparing Trail Boss to 4759 is like comparing Red Dot to IMR 4227.

[odis]

For light loads in my revolvers I like red dot or bullseye, I like the fact that the 1lb jugs have 1lb in them where as TB has 9oz. I have 7lbs of 4759 on hand for my wives 30-30 and my 06. I shoot handguns the most and I'm old so I figure I have enough 4759.

[monge]

Hey Ole try 39grs of IMR4227 with that RD350gr 1800fps low recoil and a tact driver out of my guide gun!

[44man]

Hey Ole try 39grs of IMR4227 with that RD350gr 1800fps low recoil and a tact driver out of my guide gun!
Not so from the BFR 45-70 revolver, sucks sewer water! I can throw boolits better. I have had 3/8" groups at 50 and 1/2" at 100 with 4759. Hit steel at 500 meters. No other powder will do it.
My 7R and 7BR pistols thrive on 4759. NOT A SINGLE OTHER POWDER WORKS.

[monge]

Have you tried other powders that's are close in the burn rate chart?

[JSH]

Some one explain the reasoning of those folks that don't like trail boss because there is only 9 ounces in it. Yes I understand the weight thing. But, it is based on volume and not weight.
Which is heavier a pound of lead or a pound of feathers? Lets see you get the pound of feathers in the same conatainer a pound of lead fits into nicely.
I have a couple of "8lb kegs" of powder. One is imr 4227 and the other is sr4759, both cans are the same size. The 4227 is 8lb and the 4759 is 5, did I get shorted?
Jeff

[dragon813gt]

It's not a fair comparison until you compare cost. A one pound container of "x" powder cost $20. A 1/2 pound container of trail boss cost $20. See the problem here? If the cost per ounce isn't in line then you're paying a lot more for less. If the cost per ounce is the same then you just need to buy more containers.

[9.3X62AL]

Dragon makes a good point about cost per pound. I paid significantly less per flask for the 9 oz. Trail Boss than I do for the usual 1# flasks of powder.

But you need to "ask the next question" in this context......2.7 grains of Bullseye prompts a 38 Special 148 grain hollow-base wadcutter along at about 725-750 FPS. It takes about 3.2 grains of Unique or 3.5 grains of Herco to enable similar velocities. Most retailers charge similar prices per pound for all 3 fuels, so in terms of cost per round which one is most expensive? You can quickly make yourself crazy with the minuteae in this hobby field.

[JSH]

Have not bought any TB for a while. Last time I got some it was $5-7 per jug cheaper than the other powders.
I think it has its place in some applications. I do get concerned as others do when using it in older weaker designed guns with the pressure thoughts.
It is dang sure not any kind of replacement for sr4759 as stated by others.
Funny bunch here seems we are all on a tight budget ? Then we give $4 for gas and $35-70 for good whiskey, and $xxx for molds. Then we discuss $.00x as to it being to expensive to use lol.
Jeff

[dragon813gt]

You can quickly make yourself crazy with the minuteae in this hobby field.
You think :laugh:

I stopped trying to figure out which powder was the cheapest for the application long ago. I settled on stocking a few select powders in bulk and making them work. It's a lot easier to ride out the shortages when you sitting on jugs of powder instead of a bunch of various one pounders that may or may not work for what you want.

I remember the first time I saw TB in the shelf. I wondered why it was so much cheaper. Then I saw the weight. VV powders are the same way. I have a four pounder of Unique that's in the same jug as an eight pounder. Always check the weight. If you've bought bacon at the grocery store lately you might have bought a twelve ounce "pound" package :(

[sthwestvictoria]

This is some pressure curve data from the Paco forums (http://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7823&view=previous&sid=260266173e5e2c2cee7368f5e3bb6294):
106534
106535
Demonstrating how fast TB rises pressure. Consistent with this all my accuracy loads with TB have been at or below the 70% load rate they suggest. Higher than this and I presume there is high pressure although still low velocity and bullet deformation on firing.

[Nobade]

My experience is consistent with yours - in straight wall cartridges, it shoots great filled to the base of the boolit. But in bottleneck rounds, quite often 70% is way too much and best loads are around 55% - 65%. I have several rifles that are tack drivers when loaded with TB, but they are also barely supersonic.

-Nobade

[44man]

Have you tried other powders that's are close in the burn rate chart?
Yes, all of them.
JSH, 4759 used to be sold in 1/2# jugs because it is bulky. Even today you will see it sold in 4# jugs.

[waco]

I'm glad I was able to get an 8lb jug awhile back. My LGS still has about 3-4 lbs I think. I wish money was not so tight....