Official 500 Grain 45-70 Load Data questionnaire for Marlin and Winchester Leverguns

[Just Duke]

I'm thinking 28-32 grains of 4198.
I also have a plethora of 3031. Not sure if that can be used.
5744 is an option. Again not sure what load would be good for hunting
I'm also entertaining Black Powder.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232532-460-500Gr-FN-(RCBS-82054)


This is a clone of the RCBS #82054 45-500-FN
We will be running this like a inventory run

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/NOE_Bullet_Moulds_460_530Gr_FN_RCBS.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/NOE_Bullet_Moulds_460_530Gr_FN_RCBS_529_gr_Sketch. jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/NOE_Bullet_Moulds_460_530Gr_FN_HP_RCBS_511_gr_Sket ch.jpg

We will be running 2 cavity, 4 cavity, 5 cavity, RG2 and RG4 Aluminum
GC or PB, but only one or the other per mould (no mixing GC and PB)
We offer Blank RG pins on our website for you that like to make your own.
Top punch, wrenches and sprue lube are extras now if you want them

Prices will be our standard website prices ( www.noebulletmoulds.com )
2 cavity $79.00
4 cavity $92.00
5 cavity $99.00
RG2 cavity $103.00
RG4 cavity $133.00
Lyman/RCBS style Top Punch $5.00
Saeco style Top Punch $7.50
Mould Wrenches / Sprue Lube $2.50
RG2 blank pin set $4.50
RG4 blank pin set $9.00

Will run this as soon as we get 15 signed up and we get the tooling in.
Will have them listed on our website as a inventory item as soon as we have them ran
So you can use Pay-Pal, Credit Card or Check / Money order
Post a "I want" and receive a 5% discount off the website
We will PM a discount code for you to use at check out

If you have question - Visit our website or PM me

Thanks
Swede Nelson

[MT Chambers]

Lyman shows 42 grs. of 3031 with a cast boolit in the "trapdoor" section for 1332fps and 17,900 c.u.p.........it doesn't show those heavy bullets for the level2 levergun loads, but for the Ruger #1 it shows a 475gr bullet and 47 gr. of 3031 as a starter load at 1657fps and 32,400 cup, top end load shows 53 grs. 3031 and 1802 fps and 38,500cup.....I think the ideal load in your levergun would be from 42-47grs. of 3031.........enjoy!

[Nobade]

I am going to say that I see no need whatsoever for a boolit that heavy in a Marlin 1895. I have tried it in the past, and seated so they feed through the action you lose so much powder room that velocities are very low, pressures high, and recoil tremendous. Not to mention not as accurate as lighter boolits. For big penetration, I like designs like the RCBS 405 and for lighter game the RCBS 350 works great, since they have the same nose design that feeds through the Marlin so slick.

BTW, if you must, do not exceed 35gr. of IMR3031. That is right up against the pressure limit for the 1895, and will produce about 1350 fps. This is not a full case, you can overpressure with this powder if you use a full load of it with a 500gr. boolit.

-Nobade

[dubber123]

I am shooting a 520 Gr. RF out of a pair of Marlins, seated to 2.550" 35.0 Grs. of H-4198 ran 1,400 fps. from an 18" Guide gun. I have not chronoed that load from my 26" Cowboy, but I doubt it slowed down much. :) Recoil in the Cowboy without a pad is not entirely fun, and I have toyed with dropping the speed to the 1,300 fps. range, or going to a lighter boolit.

[TXGunNut]

My Marin GG seems to prefer boolits in the 350 gr range. I know my shoulder does. ;-)
There's something I like about that boolit, though. It resembles the 375449 my BB 375 is so fond of.

[EDG]

The 45-70 as is shot these days is really 2 different cartridges.

The single shot cartridge can use long nose and bore riding bullets for use with very long loaded lengths and heavy powder charges a long as it is not fired in a weaker Trapdoor rifle. Trapdoors use very light load data but can be loaded to the longer lengths. Even Uncle Sam thought a 500 grain bullet was too much for a Trapdoor carbine.

The repeater cartridge has limited overall length and uses different data and often different (shorter and short nose) bullets in max loads for a reason. The powder charge space is limited with heavy bullets.

I have shot quite a few 500 grn bullets off of bench rest with 10.5 Lb and 12 Lb single shot rifles at the normal 1200-1300 fps velocities. I would not want to shoot a M95 Marlin with 500 grain bullets.

I shot only a few 510 J word bullets at 1700 fps in an 8lb bolt gun and that was no fun at all.

[CPL Lou]

Personally, I'm looking forward to unleashing a few of these beasts at retina detaching speeds !
I e-mailed RCBS for any load data they could provide.
Wouldn't mind setting off a couple in my Ruger #1 while I was at it.
Recoil has not been an issue in my shooting accuracy since '83. I won't say that a 577 Nitro would be fun, but I would say that I could do it....once or twice [smilie=l:
If launching boolits at mediocre speeds is what some of you want to do, great! But there's more to shooting than that, at least for me.
If a 4oz ice pick at 10 fps does it for ya, go for it. But not all load development should be for those that don't like, or can't, tolerate some kick.
If you have loaded some of these boolits, please share !
End of rant.
NOT intended to step on toes, just sayin' is all.

CPL Lou

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/uncle004.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/uncle004.jpg.html)

This is one of my 520 HP's and a loaded round at Marlin length. They look a lot nicer seated out for the Sharps replica.

[CPL Lou]

Sweet ! What powders are you using ? Any suggestions or recommendations will be appreciated !
What alloy do you use ?
I've been thinking that an alloy of 50/50 - #2 and pure would expand nicely.
Wouldn't mind trying some Super Tough and wheel weights, just to see how well it holds up.

CPL Lou

[dubber123]

50/50 WW-Pb with some tin added. 35 grs. H-4198 runs about 1,400 fps from a Guide Gun. The HP is probably too big, but I figure there is 400 grains of solid left under it. :)

[CPL Lou]

Thanks ! [smilie=s:

CPL Lou

[StrawHat]

Ken Waters thought the 500 grain bullet too long for the Marlin rifles. They needed to be seated deep into the case and use up space that could be used for powder.

Having seen the Marlin rifle and what is needed to feed cartidges from the magazine I agree.

[dubber123]

Ken Waters thought the 500 grain bullet too long for the Marlin rifles. They needed to be seated deep into the case and use up space that could be used for powder.

Having seen the Marlin rifle and what is needed to feed cartidges from the magazine I agree.

They do indeed need to be seated deep, as the one in my pic shows, but if a 500+ gr. boolit at 1,400+ Fps. will meet your needs, it's not hard to do with smokeless. The rounded ogive on my HP's actually make them one of the slickest feeders in my rifle. I don't think they are necessary either, but it's fun to play, and I doubt any failure I experience with them will be due to insufficent boolit weight. :)

[CPL Lou]

Well, got a reply from RCBS:

Unfortunately we do not have a ballistics lab at this location so we have no tested load data. Thanks for choosing RCBS and have a great day!

Technical Services Representative/ap
ATk/RCBS
605 Oro Dam Blvd.
Oroville, Ca 95965
(800) 379-1732

I guess published data will have to come from other sources folks.

CPL Lou

[44man]

Not in the cards for me either! My 12# Browning will blacken a shoulder with BP with those heavy things. Might see Marlin stocks wired and taped after a few!

[Tatume]

Hodgdon lists many load data for 485 grain cast bullets in the 45-70. All are Trapdoor level, and most exceed 1400 fps.

[Just Duke]

Might see Marlin stocks wired and taped after a few!

We have shot several hundred 485 grainers out of each of our Marlins.
Beartooth sells 550's loaded all day long for Marlins.

[44man]

We have shot several hundred 485 grainers out of each of our Marlins.
Beartooth sells 550's loaded all day long for Marlins.
How about wired shoulders?

[BABore]

Do a search for my BRP 460 or 462-465 GC. I gave a load to Crusty Old Coot using H335 and Fed 210M Match primers. H335 works extremely well for the heavies in both the accuracy and velocity departments.

[Doc_Stihl]

Need to keep in mind that when you're looking at load data for 500 grain boolits in a 45/70 most of the time they assume that half the bullet is outside the case. Short nosed Marlin acceptable bullets use a lot of capacity up.

[james6600]

DUKE NUKEM, take heed of what Doc Stihl says, just about all published data in the books for boolits heavier than 405gr have a longer COL with the extra weight in the nose outside the case. When you go squishing heavy boolits to a Marlin feedable length you are drastically reducing case volume and even TrapDoor loads become high pressure. I'm sure you know this but I just wanted to be blunt about it to make sure you are safe. I'm trying to load CP460's and starting with 30grs of IMR4198 in a cut down case to just under 1.8" but keeping the Marlin COL. For those that haven't figured it out and really want to waste time read Indiana deer laws at indnr.gov .

[lar45]

I looked at Quickload with your bullet length of 1.297" and a loaded length of 2.543" with a 20" barrel.
37.5gn of 3031 should give 1420fps @ 24.6kpsi and 100% load density
28gn of 4198 should give 1273fps @ 20.8kpsi and 77.8% load density
32gn of 4198 should give 1434fps @ 29.3kpsi and 89% load density
36gn of 4198 should give 1588fps @ 40.7kpsi and 100% load density
27gn of 5744 should give 1400fps @ 29.7kpsi and 70% load density
29gn of 5744 should give 1484fps @ 35.3kpsi and 76% load density
30.5gn of 5744 should give 1544fps @ 40kpsi and 79.5% load density

Not Load Data, just Quickload's Guestimate

[Just Duke]

DUKE NUKEM, take heed of what Doc Stihl says, just about all published data in the books for boolits heavier than 405gr have a longer COL with the extra weight in the nose outside the case. When you go squishing heavy boolits to a Marlin feedable length you are drastically reducing case volume and even TrapDoor loads become high pressure. I'm sure you know this but I just wanted to be blunt about it to make sure you are safe. I'm trying to load CP460's and starting with 30grs of IMR4198 in a cut down case to just under 1.8" but keeping the Marlin COL. For those that haven't figured it out and really want to waste time read Indiana deer laws at indnr.gov .




This is a clone of the RCBS #82054 45-500-FN
This bullet was designed for the 45-70 by engineers.


I looked at Quickload with your bullet length of 1.297" and a loaded length of 2.543" with a 20" barrel.

32gn of 4198 should give 1434fps @ 29.3kpsi and 89% load density

This is what mine are loaded to. I shoot them in a Winchester 1886 and formerly several Marlin 1895's.

Personally I feel the the pressures associated with 500 to 550's to 1800 fps in the Marlin are not within my safety parameters.
I have seen others here load 500 to 550's with 40 grains of 4198 and then proceed to fire them in the Marlin 1895's. <shuddering>
I don't feel this action is designed for this type of load. I sure won't ever load to 40 grains that's for sure

[Just Duke]

Thanks Lars.

[CPL Lou]

I'd be happy as a hog in slop to get 1500 - 1600 fps with this boolit !
I have a Ruger #1 built for insanity loads, my Marlin lever actions are too dear to my heart to take a chance loading them to 1800fps !
Making a road trip of 280 miles tomorrow to pick up a NIB 1895CB w/18.5" barrel.

CPL Lou

[RidgerunnerAk]

I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would want to shoot a 500gr boolit out of a Marlin 1895! I'm happy that one friend of mine did though. He shattered the stock and didn't want to mess with it and gave it to me. I bought a replacement stock from Warshals in Seattle for $27 and have been carrying that gun as my bear protection gun using 400gr Barnes SP's in Alaska for about 34yrs and have taken blacktail deer and moose with it.

[Just Duke]

I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would want to shoot a 500gr boolit out of a Marlin 1895! I'm happy that one friend of mine did though. He shattered the stock and didn't want to mess with it and gave it to me. I bought a replacement stock from Warshals in Seattle for $27 and have been carrying that gun as my bear protection gun using 400gr Barnes SP's in Alaska for about 34yrs and have taken blacktail deer and moose with it.



For when your having one of those "I look real tastey to some big animal days" while walking through the woods in Alaska.





























HOLY SMOKERS!!!



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/Kodiak092.jpg



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http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/jpomazi/Kodiak092.jpg

[Just Duke]

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN%20GUIDE%20GUN/200.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN%20GUIDE%20GUN/200.jpg

Looks to be shooting OK too!
Here is a target using Lead 485 Grainers and 28 grains of Hodgden 4198 at 30 yards.
Not bad shootin for a half blind guy. ;)


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN%20GUIDE%20GUN/BARBIESMARLIN.jpg

[Just Duke]

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN%20GUIDE%20GUN/196.jpg




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[Just Duke]

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN%20GUIDE%20GUN/190.jpg



http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN%20GUIDE%20GUN/192.jpg





http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN%20GUIDE%20GUN/193.jpg

[softpoint]

Actually, the 500 gr. RCBS bullet is designed to function in the Marlin with the crimp groove in the proper place. I have all of RCBS current offerings in .45 caliber, and have had that mold hollowpointed by Buckshot. The bullet is also quite accurate in all of my Marlins, Rcbs load manual gives a load of 44 grains of 3031 for 1533 fps. out of a 22" barrel 1895. I have used that load and also have used AA2015 and AA2495 with that bullet. I have found that some of the hotter loads with lighter bullets produce more recoil than the 500 does, because of the reduced powder capacity, most likely.
Having said that, I find that 350 to 405 grain bullets get a lot more use from me, with the accuracy edge usually going to the 405's and the 425 Ranch dog Bullet. (The lighter slugs use lots less alloy).

[CPL Lou]

Duke, is that a custom barrel ?
I have a brand spankin new 1895CB, 18.5" octagonal barrel just itchin to shoot a few of these.
I've been reading '40 years with the 45-70', found data for the 500gr RCBS somewhere close to the back of the book. Can't recall what it was right now, but I'll look it up again tomorrow and post it.
BTW, that is one awesome bear !!!

CPL Lou

Found the data on page #158 !
He tried 40grs of IMR3031 using CCI 250 Magnum primer in a Marlin 1895.

[CPL Lou]

I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would want to shoot a 500gr boolit out of a Marlin 1895! I'm happy that one friend of mine did though. He shattered the stock and didn't want to mess with it and gave it to me. I bought a replacement stock from Warshals in Seattle for $27 and have been carrying that gun as my bear protection gun using 400gr Barnes SP's in Alaska for about 34yrs and have taken blacktail deer and moose with it.

I would stop trying to then.

CPL Lou

[40-82 hiker]

If you are considering using BP, I'd suggest using AA5744 (no real advantage to BP in your rifle, lacking need for authenticity or range rules - still, it would be great fun). Pretty sure they have load data for that heavy of a boolit, or very close to it. At least you could consider it a "reduced" load... Geez! That's a chunk of lead! I was using a copy of the Ordnance Dept. 500gr boolit in my TD for some time, and even at BP velocities, and in a heavy TD, it just got uncomfortable to shoot as I got older and my body got worse. Can't imagine it in a light(er) gun at higher velocities. Good luck with it... Ever thought of a .600 Nitro Express instead? Just kidding... Now use 405gr and love it.

[Just Duke]

Good info.

[KirkD]

I am just starting to experiment with my new Accurate mould http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-500F-D.png . This bullet is designed to have a lot of it outside the case, so that the powder volume remains almost the same as the 405 grain bullet. Unfortunately, it will only feed through Model 1886 actions (old and modern). I have an original '86 and a Browning '86 SRC. It is a plain base design. Here are some results through the original '86 ...

30 grains IMR 4198 + 1/2 sheet of single ply toilet paper: 1,383 fps for a 5-shot group at 100 yards of 2 & 5/8"

32 grains IMR 4198 (no filler): 1,370 fps for a 5-shot group at 100 yards of 2"

My next step is to try a slower load, somewhere around 1,280 fps. Also, I want to try a BP load. As for the Browning, I am finding that the bullet is not quite stabilizing. Some holes are perfect at 100 yards, but the occasional hole shows a slight wobble. For the 32 grains of IMR 4198 load, three bullets formed one ragged hole at 100 yards, but two others widened the group to about 4 & 1/2" (although I also suspect that the vertical spread might have been due to myself). By the way, this load kicks like a mule with the steel butt on the Browning '86 SRC.

Using the original 500 grain Lyman mould,which also will not feed through a Marlin, 24 grains of 5744 plus 1/4 sheet of single ply toilet paper gave 1,172 fps.

[Fieldmaster]

Need to keep in mind that when you're looking at load data for 500 grain boolits in a 45/70 most of the time they assume that half the bullet is outside the case. Short nosed Marlin acceptable bullets use a lot of capacity up.
That's where single shot rifles come into play

[Barman54]

Nice Postings

Barman54
Out

[BLAHUT]

I'm thinking 28-32 grains of 4198.
I also have a plethora of 3031. Not sure if that can be used.
5744 is an option. Again not sure what load would be good for hunting
I'm also entertaining Black Powder.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232532-460-500Gr-FN-(RCBS-82054)

I load and shoot a 515 gr Lee flat point in pure lead over 27 gr of 5744 with a mag primer out of my guide gun. Very accurate.

[indian joe]

I shoot duplex / blackpowder in my 45/70 lever - you give away too much powder space with those big boolits in a lever gun (winchester anyways)