Registered Guns

[jcwit]

Simple question here, I keep hearing about the Marine being held in Mexico for mistakenly crossing the boarder with 3 "I believe" long guns, all of them registered.

When did we start registering firearms in the U.S.

This is being reported on most networks, FOX included.

[beagle]

it may mean that he has them registered on the military post to which he is assigned. The military required that all firearms brought on a post be registered. If he lives in the troop billets, he is required to store them in the unit arms room./beagle

[Bullshop Junior]

They get registered in your name when you do the "yellow" forms.

[Idz]

remember he was in the police state of California

[jcwit]

They get registered in your name when you do the "yellow" forms.

That "Yellow" form is held by the retailer, no info regarding the firearm is transferred to the gov. at time of purchase, now after the retailer dies, goes out of business the forms are to be turned in, but that may be years later.

[starmac]

Aren't all guns registered in Cali.

[Bullshop Junior]

That "Yellow" form is held by the retailer, no info regarding the firearm is transferred to the gov. at time of purchase, now after the retailer dies, goes out of business the forms are to be turned in, but that may be years later.

When the dealer calls in the form the ATF gets all the info on the forum as well as the info on the gun. I grew up in a gun store. I've seen a thousand and more of those calls made. And I think the forums get mailed in yearly.

[shooterg]

I believe the dealer is 'sposed to hang onto Federal forms for 20 years. Lots of states(VA is one) have you fill out an almost identical form for the State Police. And ATF has twisted many dealers arms into providing information("forward trace") they weren't legally entitled to. Plus many folks assume the 4473 is de facto registration, though it isn't 'sposed to be.
In Mexico he'd go to jail just for having ammo in his vehicle. Few years back a Texas dealer(Bean?) got convicted of a Mexican felony for that, US took away his FFL and right to own a gun.

[lonewelder]

I thought it was like jcwit said.I had no idea filling out the form registered it to you.on a side note if he is still active duty isn't he govt. Property.and shouldn't they try to get him out.?

[Bullshop Junior]

I may be wrong but that is the way I understood it.

[FISH4BUGS]

I like my guns like Obama likes his voters - undocumented.

[DCP]

When the dealer calls in the form the ATF gets all the info on the forum as well as the info on the gun. I grew up in a gun store. I've seen a thousand and more of those calls made. And I think the forums get mailed in yearly.

Are you referring to a form 4473

The Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is simply denied by the NICS, although prosecutions are rare in the absence of another felony committed with the gun purchased.

The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into their "bound-book". A dealer must keep this on file at least 20 years and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five-day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.

If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473, though some states require individual sellers to sell through dealers.

These forms are given the same status as a tax return under the Privacy Act of 1974 and cannot be disclosed by the government to private parties or other government officials except in accordance with the Privacy Act. Individual dealers possessing a copy of the form are not subject to the Privacy Act's restrictions on disclosure. Dealers are required to maintain completed forms for 20 years in the case of completed sales and 5 years where the sale was denied by the NICS check coming back disapproved or other disqualifying information.

[dragon813gt]

What "yellow" forms? I've never filled one out that's any color except white. We have an illegal handgun registration here in PA. But long arms are not.

[MBTcustom]

When the dealer calls in the form the ATF gets all the info on the forum as well as the info on the gun. I grew up in a gun store. I've seen a thousand and more of those calls made. And I think the forums get mailed in yearly.

You are greatly mistaken. I am a dealer and I do transfers all the time. I explain to uninformed people that at no time do I communicate any part of the serial number, make or model of my clients firearm to the BATFE. I still have every "little yellow paper" (it's a 4473 form FYI) that I ever filled out on a client.
All they know is your name, address, SSN (only if you provided it), height, weight, eye color, gender,...........and weather I am transferring a long gun or a hand gun.
That's all they've got. They know who you are, where you live, and that you bought some pistols and rifles/shotguns. They don't know what kind they are, what brand they are, where they came from, how much you paid for them, what the serial numbers are, or how many round they hold. They are woefully behind the information curve, and the NRA is part of the reason you still have privacy.

So quit calling the little yellow paper "registration" it is'nt. Or if it is, its the most ridiculously backwards and busted form of gun registration ever devised by man.
The little yellow paper is so that the BATFE can keep an eye on the dealers not the buyers.

[jcwit]

What "yellow" forms? I've never filled one out that's any color except white. We have an illegal handgun registration here in PA. But long arms are not.

Used to be yellow a few years ago, they are white now.

[schutzen]

The Form 4473 is held by the dealer until his FFL is closed out. Then the forms are forwarded to the ATF in Martinsburg WVA were they are stored. The only information the FBI NICS check asks for the buyers name, SSN (optional, but approvals are quicker with the SSN), the buyers place of birth, the buyers state of residence, the buyers nationality (US Citizen), and the type of firearm (long gun, hand gun, or other). No other information about the firearm is transmitted to the FBI NICS.

[dragon813gt]

Never seen these yellow papers you speak of. I've only been buying firearms for fifteen years so I guess they were before my time. I can't tell you the last time I even filled one out by hand. Even the small guys that only do transfers are using computer programs that print everything out.

[lonewelder]

Yellow or white its the same form.sometimes they make small changes.I remember when there were no forms to fill out.and I don't think we are any better off since the forms.criminals by definition do not obay the law.most firearms used in crimes are stolen.

[ktw]

Michigan has had handgun registration for as long as I can remember. As in, you need to get a form from your local sheriff (often referred to as a 'permit to purchase') before the transaction. The dealer/seller needs to fill out the firearms details on that form. You need to return that form, completed and notarized, to the local sheriff after the purchase. For most of my life, you also had to present the firearm at the sheriff's office for a 'safety inspection' during which they confirmed the info on the form was correct and recorded several other details.

The process has eased up a bit over the last decade or so.
- Possession of a concealed weapons permit meant you could skip the permit to purchase.
- More recently, the licensed dealers have the purchase permit in stock, making it unnecessary to obtain one from the sheriff prior to the transaction if buying from a licensed dealer.
- It is no longer necessary to present the firearm at the Sheriff's office after the transaction. You still need to return the registration card, regardless of who you bought it from.

-ktw

[jcwit]

Thanks guys.

Bet the state of Cali. is the whole issue. Didn't even think of that as I'm in fly over country.

[Bullshop Junior]

I've never seen a computer program for it.

[lonewelder]

I feel sorry for people who have to jump through hoops to excercise their rights.it is such a big part of my life and how I was raised I have even thought about moving to AK just to get to live free.yes I'm sure bullshop ,sen.and jr have something to say.

[jcwit]

I've never seen a computer program for it.

The Wal-Marts near me use the computer system.

[southpaw]

How do they trace the serial number of a gun back to the owner?

One time when I was buying a gun (bought many from this dealer over the years) the lady asked if I have a twin brother. I have no idea were that question came from. I don't bother putting the ss number down any more since I have never heard them ask for it anyway. Once he gets through the call last about a minute or two tops. I was told that all the details that you provide are help make sure that you are not confused with someone else, thats were the ssn comes in.

Jerry Jr.

[beagle]

That's been my understanding and experience too. I've stood there and hear the dealer run my purchase and he only gave either pistol or long gun. No make, model, etc. That was recorded on the form that stayed at the gun shop./beagle


You are greatly mistaken. I am a dealer and I do transfers all the time. I explain to uninformed people that at no time do I communicate any part of the serial number, make or model of my clients firearm to the BATFE. I still have every "little yellow paper" (it's a 4473 form FYI) that I ever filled out on a client.
All they know is your name, address, SSN (only if you provided it), height, weight, eye color, gender,...........and weather I am transferring a long gun or a hand gun.
That's all they've got. They know who you are, where you live, and that you bought some pistols and rifles/shotguns. They don't know what kind they are, what brand they are, where they came from, how much you paid for them, what the serial numbers are, or how many round they hold. They are woefully behind the information curve, and the NRA is part of the reason you still have privacy.

So quit calling the little yellow paper "registration" it is'nt. Or if it is, its the most ridiculously backwards and busted form of gun registration ever devised by man.
The little yellow paper is so that the BATFE can keep an eye on the dealers not the buyers.

[RickinTN]

I live in Tennessee and was but am no longer an FFL holder. The background checks in Tennessee go through the TBI. As I understand it they are connected to the FBI computer but the check is done by a TBI employee. They do charge $10 per background check and I think the FBI charges nothing. When a licensed dealer calls in a form 4473 for a background check they do ask for the make, model, and serial number of the firearm being purchased whether it is a handgun or shotgun or rifle. It is my understanding that they run a check for stolen on the firearm as well as a background check on the purchaser at the same time. I do understand that Tennessee is different than the other states in this respect.
Rick

[MBTcustom]

How do they trace the serial number of a gun back to the owner?

One time when I was buying a gun (bought many from this dealer over the years) the lady asked if I have a twin brother. I have no idea were that question came from. I don't bother putting the ss number down any more since I have never heard them ask for it anyway. Once he gets through the call last about a minute or two tops. I was told that all the details that you provide are help make sure that you are not confused with someone else, thats were the ssn comes in.

Jerry Jr.

Most likely, she asked because your approval was delayed. Sometimes NICS chokes on your info because someone else with a similar name is in the system as someone who is not eligible for firearm transfer.
How do they "trace" the serial number?
Well, contrary to what our media trys to indoctrinate you with, there is no way they can take a random gun and punch the numbers into a magic computer to tell them who the last buyer was. It's impossible with the books being kept by 100000000 small gunshops around the country.
What they do is go to the original manufacturer, and ask "Who'd you sell it to?"
"Bob's gunshop"
They go to Bob's gunshop: "Who'd you sell it to?"
"Bubba's gunshop"
They go to Bubba's gunshop: "Who'd you sell it to?"
"Mr. Percival BoRegard Lacy"
Then it's: ""Mr. Percival BoRegard Lacy, we understand you bought this gun from Bubba's gunshop, in Idaho, and were good enough to furnish them with your personal information, and we were hoping you were stupid enough to drive to South Carolina, murder John Doe, and leave the gun for us to find."
Mr. Percival BoRegard Lacy tells them that he traded that gun to somebody he never met at a gunshow 7 years ago for 1000 rounds of .223 ammo, at witch point, for all intents and purposes, their perfect trail of information is dead in the water.

That's the way it works in the real world.
What do you think Fast and Furious was really all about? Don't you see? They were trying to expose how busted their own system is, and since the NRA is constantly lobbying the liveing crapola out of the lawmakers, it stays busted, and your privacy stays private, so they needed to win public support to fight the NRA. The only problem is, it blew up in their faces and made them all look like total idiots who give guns to criminals.
The truth is, they would rather let the public believe that, then the stupid simple explanation I just gave you.
Still, it could have easily gone the other way, and if it had, public sentiment would have been demanding a better way to track the movements of random firearms and your privacy would be on the line.
For the record, this is also why they are so darn intent on closing the "gunshow loophole". It's not a "loophole". It's a brick wall, past which their wonderful trail of information falls flat on it's face.

So there! Now all this BS makes perfect sense, and you understand why I say that the 4473 is not "registration" like they have taught you it is, and they really wish it were. Now go update your membership to the NRA and thank them for protecting your privacy.

[jcwit]

goodsteel, If we could only convince all gun owners of the importance of joining the NRA.

Now I hope this thread does not veer into a bash the NRA thread.

Kindly lock it if it does.

[MBTcustom]

My finger is on the button, but I don't think that will be necessary. The NRA has nothing to do with this post, and we have a political section for topics like that.
The point I was trying to make is that "Registration" is something that has no national credence. There are local governments that impose their own form of "registration" but it don't mean didly unless the whole nation is in on the game, and they are not.

I used to resist buying guns from gunshops because I bought the lie as well, but now that I know what's really going on, I am much more relaxed, and being a gun dealer I can sleep at night. If the 4473 form was any sort of registration that meant anything, I would not do transfers and throw my people under the buss that way. No way could I stomach it.
However, since things are the way they are, I have no problem at all. In fact, most of my guns came through a 4473 and it doesn't bother me at all any more.

[southpaw]

Thanks Tim.

I thought that was how it was. Actualy, I just upgraded my membership to endowment member the other day.

It was just funny that she asked about a TWIN. There wasn't any more of a delay than the origional minute or two once he got through. I guess it does make a little sence since I am sure that there were other kids born that day at the same hospital.

Jerry Jr.

[SciFiJim]

In California, hand guns have been registered at time of purchase for years. As of January 1st of this year, all long guns are registered at time of purchase. There is no requirement (yet) to register any firearm that was purchased before registration began. CCWs require the listing of guns to be carried by make and serial number on the CCW permit. Only hand guns that are registered can be listed on the permit.

[MBTcustom]

In California, hand guns have been registered at time of purchase for years. As of January 1st of this year, all long guns are registered at time of purchase. There is no requirement (yet) to register any firearm that was purchased before registration began. CCWs require the listing of guns to be carried by make and serial number on the CCW permit. Only hand guns that are registered can be listed on the permit.

That's why so many dealers wont sell to California.
They've got no problem transferring guns out of that oppressed environment though.

[Duckiller]

Our Attorney General says she doesn't register guns. She does get my name and address and the make model and serial no. of the gun I am buying. Because she doesn't update information when I move she claims it is not registration. Since I haven't move in over 35 years I think it is registration. Even if I moved every 6 months it wouldn't be that hard to find me to if I still had a gun that I bought 20 years ago. So yes some states register guns.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I have been buying both hand guns and long guns in California since the 1950s. Every hand gun I bought here from a gun shop was registered. I never had to fill out forms or go through a waiting period for a long gun. Of course I haven't bought one from a shop in over twenty years. Things may have changed.

[DoubleAdobe]

Most likely, she asked because your approval was delayed. Sometimes NICS chokes on your info because someone else with a similar name is in the system as someone who is not eligible for firearm transfer.
How do they "trace" the serial number?
Well, contrary to what our media trys to indoctrinate you with, there is no way they can take a random gun and punch the numbers into a magic computer to tell them who the last buyer was. It's impossible with the books being kept by 100000000 small gunshops around the country.
What they do is go to the original manufacturer, and ask "Who'd you sell it to?"
"Bob's gunshop"
They go to Bob's gunshop: "Who'd you sell it to?"
"Bubba's gunshop"
They go to Bubba's gunshop: "Who'd you sell it to?"
"Mr. Percival BoRegard Lacy"
Then it's: ""Mr. Percival BoRegard Lacy, we understand you bought this gun from Bubba's gunshop, in Idaho, and were good enough to furnish them with your personal information, and we were hoping you were stupid enough to drive to South Carolina, murder John Doe, and leave the gun for us to find."
Mr. Percival BoRegard Lacy tells them that he traded that gun to somebody he never met at a gunshow 7 years ago for 1000 rounds of .223 ammo, at witch point, for all intents and purposes, their perfect trail of information is dead in the water.

That's the way it works in the real world.
What do you think Fast and Furious was really all about? Don't you see? They were trying to expose how busted their own system is, and since the NRA is constantly lobbying the liveing crapola out of the lawmakers, it stays busted, and your privacy stays private, so they needed to win public support to fight the NRA. The only problem is, it blew up in their faces and made them all look like total idiots who give guns to criminals.
The truth is, they would rather let the public believe that, then the stupid simple explanation I just gave you.
Still, it could have easily gone the other way, and if it had, public sentiment would have been demanding a better way to track the movements of random firearms and your privacy would be on the line.
For the record, this is also why they are so darn intent on closing the "gunshow loophole". It's not a "loophole". It's a brick wall, past which their wonderful trail of information falls flat on it's face.

So there! Now all this BS makes perfect sense, and you understand why I say that the 4473 is not "registration" like they have taught you it is, and they really wish it were. Now go update your membership to the NRA and thank them for protecting your privacy.
Good stuff.

[Duckiller]

Tim I think the real reason dealers won't sell to California is they don't want to/ don't understand how to prove to our DOJ that they are a FFL. In 2010 I stopped at a gun store in Tenn. and asked about a particular gun I wanted. They didn't have it and added that they woun't sell to me because I was from California and they didn't want to take the time to understand California gun laws. If I want to buy a gun from out of state it has to go through an out of state FFL that has been cleared by our DOJ to a California FFL to me. Hand guns must be on the DOJ approved list ie drop tested and al ltest fees paid every 5 years or a single action revolver. Non-listed hand guns can besold as a private party transfer but must be processed by a FFL.

[Lonegun1894]

As to the 4473, on one hand, I don't consider it registration. On the other, and this is something an old friend told me years ago, they have no need to register your guns, when all they need to do is register YOU, such as when they call in for a NICS check on you. Here was his logic. Your gun is a tool, and YOU are the weapon, since without you, your gun will sit and collect dust regardless of what is going on around it. So all they need to know is that John Doe at one point bought a gun. Guess what, it doesn't matter what guns you have, because if you ever had enough of an interest in firearms to go buy one, you are likely to have that interest and have some form of firearm for the rest of your life.

Personally, as a military vet, and our current political climate, if anything, I figure they will come for me if it comes down to it, regardless if they think I have a single gun, say my single-shot H&R 12ga, or if they think I have the walls of my house lined with so many guns that I can't fit a single additional gun into the house. Now, with my paychecks, they don't have to worry about me having many guns at all, but I do have enough to allow me to do a little hunting when the season comes around.

[foesgth]

Prior to 2014 handguns were registered with the State in California. Starting in 2014 all new firearm purchases or transfers are registered in California. It just gets crazier here. They have a new bill up to ban mags that "appear to hold" more than 10 rounds.

[Geraldo]

How do they trace the serial number of a gun back to the owner?

One time when I was buying a gun (bought many from this dealer over the years) the lady asked if I have a twin brother. I have no idea were that question came from. I don't bother putting the ss number down any more since I have never heard them ask for it anyway. Once he gets through the call last about a minute or two tops. I was told that all the details that you provide are help make sure that you are not confused with someone else, thats were the ssn comes in.

Jerry Jr.

How do they trace the SN? LE only traces guns they recover, so they start at the factory, who keeps track by SN of guns that went to distributors. Distributors keep track by SN of guns that went to retailers. The retailer has a bound book. Then LE requests the 4473, which tells who bought it originally. If there was a private sale after that, it's the end of the trail.

Guns reported stolen were entered into a database, which I think was run by the state BCI because it could be accessed locally, but it could have been tied to ATF.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Back to Mexico. I lived there for one year. I was informed by a resident to scour my vehicle and be sure there was not even an empty cartridge case (fired .22) hidding in a crevice. That is enough to get you interned. As time went along I met very fine people down there and was informed by Mexicans that it was totaly illegal to have unregistered arms and ammunition and componets in Mexico. Not impossible for Mexicans but well regulated. Visitors have to do "special" paperwork before entry to legally haul a long gun onto Mexican territory. Handguns are NO !
So bottom line.. if I was headed back today to visit.. I would shop vac every possible inch of my vehicle to remove any loose or hidden item. I would even consider a rental. But I would certainly not take lightly the possibility that my vehicle would be searched especially being a documented gun owner.
Mike in Peru

[Smoke4320]

You are greatly mistaken. I am a dealer and I do transfers all the time. I explain to uninformed people that at no time do I communicate any part of the serial number, make or model of my clients firearm to the BATFE. I still have every "little yellow paper" (it's a 4473 form FYI) that I ever filled out on a client.
All they know is your name, address, SSN (only if you provided it), height, weight, eye color, gender,...........and weather I am transferring a long gun or a hand gun.
That's all they've got. They know who you are, where you live, and that you bought some pistols and rifles/shotguns. They don't know what kind they are, what brand they are, where they came from, how much you paid for them, what the serial numbers are, or how many round they hold. They are woefully behind the information curve, and the NRA is part of the reason you still have privacy.

So quit calling the little yellow paper "registration" it is'nt. Or if it is, its the most ridiculously backwards and busted form of gun registration ever devised by man.
The little yellow paper is so that the BATFE can keep an eye on the dealers not the buyers.

as an FFL and SOT ( class 3 weapons dealer) dealer I can confirm goodsteel is correct that the ATF does not know what guns you purchased from a dealer, only that you bought either a Long gun hand gun or receiver .. NO Make, model or SN# is given to them..
The only time they would get your info (ie make model and serial number ) is if they do a trace on a weapon (usually recovered in a crime ) they start back at the MFG and trace all the way down to the dealer selling the weapon ..Dealer then have to give all the info on the 4473 to the ATF ..
yes 4473's were yellow ( I have about 8 or 9 file boxes of them stored upstairs ) until about 4 years ago now white as reported..

Now there are state registrations California , Ny ect.. All those states that require you to turn in that fired case from your new purchased handgun .. That envelope has all the guns info and is tied to you..

[Ramar]

Tim's got it all correct ..... again.
Ramar

[MBTcustom]

As to the 4473, on one hand, I don't consider it registration. On the other, and this is something an old friend told me years ago, they have no need to register your guns, when all they need to do is register YOU, such as when they call in for a NICS check on you. Here was his logic. Your gun is a tool, and YOU are the weapon, since without you, your gun will sit and collect dust regardless of what is going on around it. So all they need to know is that John Doe at one point bought a gun. Guess what, it doesn't matter what guns you have, because if you ever had enough of an interest in firearms to go buy one, you are likely to have that interest and have some form of firearm for the rest of your life.

Personally, as a military vet, and our current political climate, if anything, I figure they will come for me if it comes down to it, regardless if they think I have a single gun, say my single-shot H&R 12ga, or if they think I have the walls of my house lined with so many guns that I can't fit a single additional gun into the house. Now, with my paychecks, they don't have to worry about me having many guns at all, but I do have enough to allow me to do a little hunting when the season comes around.

Again, sensational misinformation that is pushed by the left to make you paranoid and misinformed. The truth is if you, your father, or your grandfather ever: filled out one of those papers, served in the military or police, lived in the rural south, they know you have access to firearms and are probably adept at using them, and probably got one given to you as a gift at one point or another.
They already have all your personal information if they needed it. The NICS check is at best redundant information if you think of it as registration. It's not giving them anything they don't already have.

Now, it's true that in this country we have people registration, and your friend was partially right in that regard. It's called prison. If you are convicted of a crime, you are a registered criminal and your name and information along with all your AKA's get logged into database, and that is what NICS is checking. It doesn't even care what you did, how you did it, or who you hurt. All NICS is checking for is to see if you already are "registered" and if you are, you will not be buying a gun from a dealer.
I'm not in favor of gun control, but "let's not sell guns to convicted criminals" seems like a no brainer to me, and I'm glad for this particular safeguard. Everybody you sell to as an individual, you have to look them in the eye, and hope you didn't just sell your pistol to a guy that busted out of prison two days ago and is on his way to make piece with his ex-wife. That would be a hard thing to read about in the next days paper!
For me, if NICS comes back with "denied" I know the man standing in front of me is or was a criminal. Fortunately, that has not happened yet, and won't because I get to know all of my clients very well.

There's another sort of registration that is taking place across this nation, and that is CCW permits. I am proud to say I am "registered" in that database, and it is a completely different scenario.
If you have proven to a trained professional that you are capable of handling a firearm proficiently,
and you have proven to the government that you are a law abiding citizen in good standing,
by voluntarily submitting to a background check,
and taken a pledge that you will never be a criminal and given copies of your finger prints to the authorities to "put your money where your mouth is" so to speak, then you will never undergo another NICS check again.
When a client comes here to buy a gun or take possession of one, when they show me that CCW permit, then I know I'm on safe ground. No NICS check is necessary. They fill out the 4473, and I drop it in my filing cabinet. Not a single other person is involved, and no phone call or e-mail of any kind is transferred to the government. You could buy hundreds of guns and it's between you and your dealer, because the government knows you pose no threat to your community or country.
Your CCW permit is voluntary registration of yourself as one of the good guys, and you enjoy less red tape as a result.

[Bad Water Bill]

As far as post #1 goes I think when the marine failed to show up for muster he was listed as A W O L and OUR government immediately washed their hands of the whole thing.

Now IF he lives long enough to be released he will have to face a court marshal then serve time in a FEDERAL prison.

Consider the poor marine dead and move on folks.:evil:

[Finster101]

Tim, in FLA even though I have a CCW I still have to do the NICS check every time I purchase a gun from a dealer. The CCW does allow me to take it with me without a waiting period.

James

[monadnock#5]

To the OP's original qestion: in this context registered means that the all the guns traced back to the man arrested, and not to a burglary or theft of some sort. Ergo, the man was a fine upstanding member of the USA, not a cartel member or gov stooge.

[starmac]

The thing is, he could have made a wrong turn, or he could have got caught. Just because the guns were his, does not mean he wasn't going to sell them in Mexico.

[monadnock#5]

My point in post 46 was that had the guns traced back to having been obtained illegally, that in itself would have proven he tried to cross the border with criminal intent. I believe that what the media outlets were trying to say was that because the guns were "registered", he should be given the benefit of the doubt. Selling illegally, a firearm tracable to the seller, would be like the dealer on the corner putting a business card in each bag of dope. Like you, I can only wonder how he ended up where he is now. I live 20 miles from the Mass border, so I do know the stakes involved in making a wrong turn.

[762 shooter]

It begs the question as to why he called 911 for help as soon as he realized he had missed the turn. He needs more training if was trying to be a criminal.

Really wrong place at the really wrong time.

762

[jcwit]

As far as post #1 goes I think when the marine failed to show up for muster he was listed as A W O L and OUR government immediately washed their hands of the whole thing.

Now IF he lives long enough to be released he will have to face a court marshal then serve time in a FEDERAL prison.

Consider the poor marine dead and move on folks.:evil:

According to News Reports his muster was excused because of the situation he is in.

At least that is what his mother said on FOX News.

[David2011]

When the dealer calls in the form the ATF gets all the info on the forum as well as the info on the gun. I grew up in a gun store. I've seen a thousand and more of those calls made. And I think the forums get mailed in yearly.

Sorry; that is not what the law requires. The FFL holder is required to hold the 4473s as long as they are in business. If the FFL closes or gives up the license the forms are turned in to the BATFE. The primary use is to determine the original purchaser in the event of a firearm being used in a crime. It is a crime for the government to retain the information after a call is made for an instant check. Not saying it isn't done but that is the law. The only gun registration is for class 3, AOW- anything that isn't a normal retail firearm. Those are Federal registrations.

David

[pipehand]

The "Registered" thing is all because of misinformation from television. As I was reading this thread, my wife was watching some cop drama set in Montana. Statement was made about a 38 revolver not registered to a certain person. Montana! Here in South Carolina, we don't register our guns, or our dogs. Only grudgingly do we register our automobiles as motor vehicles.

[starmac]

I would think benefit of the doubt on the mexican border would be a rare thing. A few years back Mexico came up with a new tax on items purchased in the US and taken back to Mexico, iirc it was on groceries. There was an uprising of sorts over it and some 4000 people stormed the border guards at juarez. The guards bailed in the river (all of them) and headed for safety on the US side, they threw there service guns in the river before they got to the US side, so they wouldn't be arrested.

[monadnock#5]

Years ago the Mass State Police posted a well marked, hi-viz squad car in the parking lot of the Keene, NH liquor store on a Sat afternoon. Hiyuk yuk. To say it was a useless effort at intimidation wouldn't be too strong a statement. The State of NH knows who its best customers are, and see's no conflict of interest in also keeping nice warm cots for those who can't resist a tipple or two for the road home.

I used to love to eat my lunch on a Fri afternoon parked in the lot such that the liquor store customers had to drive by. Man o' man, a truer cross section of society will be found no where else on earth:-P!

[Cornbread]

Most likely, she asked because your approval was delayed. Sometimes NICS chokes on your info because someone else with a similar name is in the system as someone who is not eligible for firearm transfer.
How do they "trace" the serial number?
Well, contrary to what our media trys to indoctrinate you with, there is no way they can take a random gun and punch the numbers into a magic computer to tell them who the last buyer was. It's impossible with the books being kept by 100000000 small gunshops around the country.
What they do is go to the original manufacturer, and ask "Who'd you sell it to?"
"Bob's gunshop"
They go to Bob's gunshop: "Who'd you sell it to?"
"Bubba's gunshop"
They go to Bubba's gunshop: "Who'd you sell it to?"
"Mr. Percival BoRegard Lacy"
Then it's: ""Mr. Percival BoRegard Lacy, we understand you bought this gun from Bubba's gunshop, in Idaho, and were good enough to furnish them with your personal information, and we were hoping you were stupid enough to drive to South Carolina, murder John Doe, and leave the gun for us to find."
Mr. Percival BoRegard Lacy tells them that he traded that gun to somebody he never met at a gunshow 7 years ago for 1000 rounds of .223 ammo, at witch point, for all intents and purposes, their perfect trail of information is dead in the water.

That's the way it works in the real world.
What do you think Fast and Furious was really all about? Don't you see? They were trying to expose how busted their own system is, and since the NRA is constantly lobbying the liveing crapola out of the lawmakers, it stays busted, and your privacy stays private, so they needed to win public support to fight the NRA. The only problem is, it blew up in their faces and made them all look like total idiots who give guns to criminals.
The truth is, they would rather let the public believe that, then the stupid simple explanation I just gave you.
Still, it could have easily gone the other way, and if it had, public sentiment would have been demanding a better way to track the movements of random firearms and your privacy would be on the line.
For the record, this is also why they are so darn intent on closing the "gunshow loophole". It's not a "loophole". It's a brick wall, past which their wonderful trail of information falls flat on it's face.

So there! Now all this BS makes perfect sense, and you understand why I say that the 4473 is not "registration" like they have taught you it is, and they really wish it were. Now go update your membership to the NRA and thank them for protecting your privacy.


Man I wish this was like facebook and I could "like" a post because I would "like" the h3ll out of this one! When the whole Sandy Hook shooting fiasco happened I told my wife that we would become lifetime NRA members if they kept any new legislation from being passed in the wake of that and they did, so I am, and so is the wife. If you think about it, $1,000 is cheap for the work they do for me.

[Bad Water Bill]

Man I wish this was like facebook and I could "like" a post because I would "like" the h3ll out of this one! When the whole Sandy Hook shooting fiasco happened I told my wife that we would become lifetime NRA members if they kept any new legislation from being passed in the wake of that and they did, so I am, and so is the wife. If you think about it, $1,000 is cheap for the work they do for me.

If it were not for the tireless work of our N R A STATE rep over several years Illinois would STILL be the only state without CCW and when that was done Todd went over and helped the State Police get some sort of policy approved so we can get our CCW permits.

All most gun owners ever know is what is printed in the N R A magazines or thru the media.

YES the price is indeed cheap for what you get.

[TXGunNut]

The Wal-Marts near me use the computer system.

Most dealers that do much volume do as well. Just filled one out a few hours ago. ;)

[MtGun44]

By law, it is illegal for ATF to create a national gun registry.
The 4473s stay at the dealer until they go out of business.
All info used in the NICS check must be destroyed within 24 hours.

Does all of this actually happen as it is required to by law? Hard to say.

Bill

[rbertalotto]

Amazing how clueless some folks are about the most basic things.......The "Yellow Form" DOES NOT list firearm make, model or SN.......The Fed gov does not know what you bought and does not keep records of the transaction........Geez!

[MBTcustom]

Here's a little something to read if you're interested:
http://www.guns.com/2012/04/13/alaska-gun-shop-atf-strange-request-form-4473/

[dragon813gt]

The "Yellow Form" DOES NOT list firearm make, model or SN.......
Yes, it does. You don't fill that part out when you purchase a firearm. The dealer does that part.
http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

I unfortunately have to fill out a second form if it's a handgun w/ all the pertinent info and it goes to the PA State Police to become a defacto registry. This form was a concession when we got rid of the waiting period. It's my understanding that the State Police are not supposed to keep these forms but they are. Same w/ all the PICS, the NICS checks are handled by the state police as well, checks as well. Those records are to be destroyed but they aren't.

[perotter]

The "Registered" thing is all because of misinformation from television. As I was reading this thread, my wife was watching some cop drama set in Montana. Statement was made about a 38 revolver not registered to a certain person. Montana! Here in South Carolina, we don't register our guns, or our dogs. Only grudgingly do we register our automobiles as motor vehicles.

I run into people here in Minnesota who own only 1 gun and brag it isn't registered. There is no gun registration here. They must think that TV is somewhat real.

[MtGun44]

LOL! Calling other folks clueless and then referring to (apparently) the 4473 as "the yellow form" and saying
it doesn't have make, model and SN.

The 4473 has ALWAYS had make, model and SN and still does. The 4473 form hasn't been yellow in many years,
so apparently you haven't bought a gun from a dealer in many years. Section D of the 4473 has all the firearm
info manufacturer, model, SN, type and caliber/gauge. As a buyer, you don't fill it out, so perhaps you never
knew it was there.

Amazing the misinformation put out by folks claiming to be stopping misinformation.

Bill

[MBTcustom]

Ease up there MTGun44. No need to go hammering on somebody. The fact is that most people don't know, so they fill in the blanks as best they can. One of the missions of castboolits.com is to separate fact from fiction and set peoples feet on solid ground, but we can't do that without them telling us where they stand in the first place can we?
It is wrong to ridicule people for misinformation they scraped together as best they can. My policy is, call a spade a spade (gently and with respect) and then communicate truth (as respectfully as I can).

The fact is, that there is probably a lot of information that I operate on that is absolutely wrong. I'm here to figure out what that is and fix it, and a lot of other people are here for the same reason. If I wanted a beating, I would just hit myself in the face with a hammer.

[Handloader109]

Good information here thanks guys