Mauser action or M1917?

[davidheart]

I'm trying to figure out a rifle build in 308 or 30-06 and I'd like to use a military action like the M98/Z24 or M1917 for the build. I know the M1917 is based on the Enfield and comes in 30-06 already (may still need to be rebarrelled if it's shot out) and the M98 comes in 8mm.

I'm familiar with the small ring/large ring & intermediate/long action differences in the Mauser so I'm guessing a 308 conversion in the Mauser would be a better bet than 30-06.

The M1917 is an option because it seems more straightforward and easier to come by than the Mauser 98 action and is already chambered in 30-06.

That being said, what are y'alls thoughts on Mauser action vs the Enfield M1917 action?

[DeanWinchester]

Based solely on your options listed I'd go for a Mauser in 308.
A 30/06 will fit there just fine too. Well, maybe not the intermediate action but a standard 98 Mauser has been chambered in 30/06 umpteen million times.

Slipping away from your listed options I'd go for a 98 Mauser in .358 Winchester.

[tdgarry]

Considering Johann Mauser invented the 30'06 yeah I would say it will work. The Israelis had a boat load of k98's with .308 barrels on them in the '60's.

[Ben]

Be careful when selecting the cartridge for your Mauser 98 conversion project.

When a Mauser 98 that was intended for the " 57 mm family of cartridges " is converted over to a 308 Win. ( or 30-06 ) , feeding problems from the magazine often times will occur requiring a different shaped mag. follower and / or work on the feed rails of the action. This can get costly with labor with your favorite gunsmith to get it to feed reliably.

With that said, some Mausers seem to feed the 30-06 and 308 Win. rounds with zero problems, but not all of them.

A fantastic cartridge for your conversion is the 7 X 57 mm. It will feed flawlessly in your 98 Mauser.

Ben

[Ben]

Mauser invented the 30-06 ?

I thought that the 30-06 was the work of our own Ordinance Dept.

[Screwbolts]

Considering Johann Mauser invented the 30'06 yeah I would say it will work. The Israelis had a boat load of k98's with .308 barrels on them in the '60's.

tdgarry, Please take a moment and look up the 30'06 Springfield's lineage. Mr Mauser is not part of its development. The word Springfield is very much a part of its lineage (Springfield Armory). Mr Mauser did influence its conception by developing the 7x57 and other 57s but had no hand in the 06

Laus Deo, Ken

Ken

[davidheart]

I never heard of feed problems with 30-06/308w in the mauser. I only heard that the 30-06 will "barely" fit in the magazine of the mauser.

[UBER7MM]

DavidHeart,
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Of you choices, the P1917 would be the easiest to build into 30'06 because the action was modified from the P14 design to cycle 30'06 cartridges (63mm case). As stated above, the 98 Mauser was designed around the 8x57mm case. The 6mm delta pose some issues in the magazine, but they can be overcome.
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The 98 Mauser to 30'06 conversion needs the front magazine wall to be moved forward about an 5/32". Next the bottom of the feeding ramp needs to be filled flush to the new magazine front and beveled down a bit at the top of the ramp.
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The 98 Mauser action is not a direct conversion to the 308 family, (51mm case) because the 308 case body is wider at the 308 at the shoulder. There are tricks to mill out the magazine sides and underside of the action to fix this issue. Without these modifications, I have seen an occasional cartridge that isn't chambered, causing an empty chamber and a dry fire. An annoyance in a target rifle, but no dinner in a hunting situation and absolutely unacceptable in a combat situation. I have also seen a 5mm spacer affixed in the front of the magazine to account for the short cartridge.

I hope this helps,

[davidheart]

With the extra work to be done on the Mauser action to convert to a 30 caliber cartridge.... is it worth it? (ie Are the benefits of the Mauser action so awesome as to warrant the modifications?)

The only plus' I know about the mauser action is cock on opening and controlled round feed. and I know the Enfield action is cock on closing. Is there anything else I should consider?

[UBER7MM]

With the extra work to be done on the Mauser action to convert to a 30 caliber cartridge.... is it worth it? (ie Are the benefits of the Mauser action so awesome as to warrant the modifications?)

The only plus' I know about the mauser action is cock on opening and controlled round feed. and I know the Enfield action is cock on closing. Is there anything else I should consider?
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The benefits to a 98 Mauser action is that they use to be cheap war surplus rifles. So were 1917s. I prefer "cock on open" as a personal preference only. Now days you'll end up spending lots of money to get that rifle to the place that you want after re-barreling. Scope, mounts, bolt modifications, safety, trigger, stock, etc.. If money is the limiting factor, buy a factory "tupperware stocked" scoped, bolt rifle at Walmart.
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98 Mausers are generally strong and considered the standard that all bolt action rifles have been measured ever since. The work to modify for a 30'06 cartridge can be accomplished in an afternoon. If you want to seat your bullets deep, COAL ~3.28" you can chamber a 30'06 without modifications of the magazine and action. However, without the modifications, you won't be able to get factory ammo (3.34") in your standard 8x57 magazine. The numbers are relative to make a point. You might get away with full length standard cartridge in a standard Mauser magazine, especially with lighter/shorter bullets. This is how guys experiment with their new rifle before its finished. (or breach load them one at a time.) I don't recommend this path as a permanent solution because I believe it would limit the functionality of a rifle.
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One trick the old gunsmiths use to employ was to modify a Springfield 1903 trigger guard to fit a Mauser action. The Springfield trigger guard bolt spacing is a bit longer. The resolution was to drill the rear bolt hole out oblong to get the bolt to thread. There might be so other surprises to get the pieces of two different guns to mesh as well. I would think that Springfield parts are getting harder to find these days.
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There are also after market 30'06 length trigger guards. Some features: Aluminum, engraved, hinged and expensive.
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The 308 cartridge conversion is more work, involving machining the interior of the magazine and underneath of the action rails. IMHO, without a machine shop access and knowledge, it would be difficult to accomplish a 308 family cartridge conversion accurately/affordably.
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If you want a 30 caliber for your Mauser action, I'd opt for the 30'06 barrel, and then enlarge the magazine and action's ramp in an afternoon.
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I hope this helps,

[davidheart]

....If money is the limiting factor, buy a factory "tupperware stocked" scoped, bolt rifle at Walmart...

...IMHO, without a machine shop access and knowledge, it would be difficult to accomplish a 308 family cartridge conversion accurately/affordably.
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If you want a 30 caliber for your Mauser action, I'd opt for the 30'06 barrel, and then enlarge the magazine and action's ramp in an afternoon.
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I hope this helps,

Money is "a" limiting factor, but I'm wanting to build a rifle I could easily pass down in the family and also use as my mainstay rifle today. I want to use an old military action for it's significance and uniqueness. If I wanted cheap and easy I would go with a Savage 100/110 from Walmart and call it a day. (I've debated that but I figured may as well 'do it right' the first time) The actions on today's modern rifle are very bland to me as well. If I wanted to just drop the money I'd save up $700 over time and purchase the rifle.... but that doesn't hold any value in my eyes. I'd rather build it.

A build is probably going to be more expensive but I'm prepared to come at it in bites. (I can't afford to do it in one chunk) I'm choosing a 30 caliber round mainly for it's availability. I want a cartridge my kids won't have trouble digging up in 50 years and will put down deer sized game at up to 600 yards (I am currently capable to 400 yards, but I'd like the rifle to be capable to 600yrd hunting range although the more common shot is 50-250 yards).

I already have 30-06 reloading dies and it's the most common joe cartridge in America. Am I overly impressed with it? Not really and I'm a little recoil sensitive. I feel no special attachment to it other than "everybody has it" and I see a lot of other cartridges which seem to do what the 30-06 does equally or better in some situations (.270, 7mm-08, .280 Remington, .308, 25-06, 35 Whelen, 7mm & 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54R, 303 British...) but feasible availability kills me.

Through the awesome blessing of friendship I do have free access to a full machine shop, multiple gunsmiths and hobbyists and a brownell's gunsmithing account. Something I couldn't say 6 months ago. So while I want to keep my request to use the lathe at a minimum it's not a hindrance.

[DeanWinchester]

You're definitely on we right track if you want to have something worth passing on. Grandpas walmart Remington doesn't really have much ring to it does it?
There's nothing average about Average Joes 30/06. As far as recoil, you've got the answer to that right in front of you. You've got dies, there's NO law that says your loads have to be barn burners.

[opos]

Got a thought...from "experience"...if you can find a Remington model 30 or one of the Sears model 1917 Winchester Enfields (these were both "factory sporterized" model 1917 rifles...in 30-06...they are great shooters and very economical...the one shown is a Winchester Sears "Ted Williams" that is like a new rifle...shoots nice and tight and it's a locomotive for strong...the rifle with the Ted Williams 4x fixed scope was just $300. They are often on Gun Broker or on local gun boards..the one I have is my favorite 30-06 and is not a "buba" conversion...it was done strictly for Sears as a competitive rifle back "in the day"...Sears also offered a model 70 and a Mauser action in the 30-06 "Ted Williams" model. The Sears rifles were made up from mostly brand new NOS components from the arsenals and as in the case of mine...the ears were well milled, tapped and drilled, not made up from buckets of parts, super accurate barrels and well polished and blued. I think somewhere along the line the trigger was changed in mine and it is still cock on closing which is not any hassle for me at all...I did have the headspace checked and it's dead on...I load moderate loads for it and it's still heavy enough to not be too punishing.

I also include a picture of an 8mm Mauser that was nicely sporterized on a nice walnut stock ... high polish...shoots like a dream with the original barrel (notice the "steps" in the picture...this one was under $300...I added the ultradot (it ran about $300 with rings and bases) to aid the old tired eyes...it clears the bolt handle without any hassle and without having to use high mount rings...I really like the 8mm cartridge..I'm into walnut and blued rifles but then I'm into dial phones too...this one has a stock that is well enough designed that recoil is just a shove and not a kick...I am old and have arthritis and can shoot this one more than I can afford the ammo...8mm like 30-06 is a nice cartridge to reload.

[UBER7MM]

David,
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For 7x57 & 8x57 cut down range 30'06 brass when not found in the local reloading supply retailer. Granted they use to be laying on the ground more plentiful 5 years ago. I agree with you that 30'06 will be around long time and is an excellent choice for reloaders and non alike.
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For recoil sensitivity, this forum is a blessing. Cast loads are as powerful as you cook them up. I've also found that a heavier rifle helps foil perceived recoil. The lighter bullets recoil less than heavier ones in the same gun. This I've felt testing game loads in differing bullet weights. A smaller diameter bullet recoils less than a wider diameter bullet. A 35 caliber 358 Win will recoil less than a 243 for example. Rubber butt pads are also a positive factor.
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308 vs. 30'06
There is nothing wrong with a 308 Win, IMHO. The only thing I see a 30'06 has over it is in the heaviest 200 + grain bullets realm. Recoil!

270 Win is almost as popular as 30'06 and the ammo can be found at Wally world. It recoils less, and is very flat shooting. The down side with 270 is that it isn't popular or as popular as a cast boolit. 280 Rem in .284" would be a better choice for reloading and casting. Vast bullet/boolit selection. Moreover, 30'06 has 270 and 280 Rem beaten with the same criteria. Simply, just more options and availability. All three have the Mauser magazine requirements.
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If you haven't already, you might like to read up on Mauser gunsmithing before starting on your project. There are several; here is Jerry Kuhnhausen's that has a lot of information:
http://www.brownells.com/books-videos/books/gunsmithing-books/rifle-gunsmithing-books/the-mauser-bolt-actions-a-shop-manual-prod25715.aspx
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I hope this helps,
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[UBER7MM]

Opps,
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Nice guns. Did you do the Mauser stock work yourself?

[Mk42gunner]

The 98 Mauser is easier to make a scoped hunting rifle out of than the Model 1917, due to having to get rid of the rear sight ears.

The bolt and safety on the 1917 are scope friendly as issued.

The 1917 tends to make a heavier rifle, less recoil.

Timney and others make after market single stage trigger for both actions, and 5 and 6 shot versions for the 1917, if you can't get used to the idea of a two stage trigger. The original military trigger can be cleaned up to be very shootable as a two stage.

Cock on opening or closing doesn't really matter, you will get used to either.

Both are controlled round feed, since the 1917 is a couple of generations later product improved(???) Mauser (by the British).

In my experience, some 98 Mauser magazines will fit and feed '06 based cartridges, some won't without work. Same with the .308.

I like both rifles, so my suggestion is to build one of each then decide.

Robert

[RustyReel]

If I remember correctly, lots of countries converted their Mausers to 30/06 as well as some to 308. If you are concerned about feeding you could start with one of those. Personally, I would stay away from the Pre-98 small rings in 308.

As noted also, there are LOTS of commercial and, for lack of a better term, semi-commercial Mauser rifles already out there and probably less expensive than buying an action and having it barreled.

I've never come across a reasonably priced Remington Mod 30.....wish I could.

[opos]

Opps,
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Nice guns. Did you do the Mauser stock work yourself?
Thanks..no, bought them as is...the Mauser was probably converted back in the late 50's or early 60's by the looks of things (that was my generation and I did convert lots of milsurps to "deer rifles" when I lived in Colorado...probably an old Fajen stock..I think Bishop made the stocks for the converter in Chicago that did the Sears rifles...both are very well inletted, well finished and have not cracked nor gotten our of shape at all..

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

This is my opinion, for what it's worth. I've done a Mauser 98 conversion in 30.06. It is a LOT of work to do it yourself, even if you do have the right tools. That is assuming you do it right and take the time to make it look like something. It will also NOT be cheap. This was several years ago and the rifle was built as a hunting rifle. Parts and labor ended it up right at one thousand dollars.

If I was going to do a Mauser 98 conversion today, I would NOT do common calibers, as you can buy those calibers in a modern Mauser for a very reasonable price today. Yes, there are modern Mauser action based rifles made in Europe today. They're fine rifles and are very affordable. One of those would make an excellent base for tuning and adding a premium stock to.

But for a surplus rifle, I would NOT buy and tear down a military rifle that's in good shape, get the action and convert it to a common caliber. The M1917's in military dress are running as much or more than commercial rifles over on the CMP forums nowadays. Mausers are much more scarce than they once were and Mauser actions/rough rifles that make good candidates to take the actions can be tough to find and much more expensive than they once were.

The ONLY way I would convert one of those rifles, assuming I could find a good candidate, is into a unique and premium caliber. Certainly nothing as common as .308 or 30.06. BTW, I love those two calibers and own a metric ton of firearms that shoot the two of them. But for custom sporters done right today, I would go for a unique caliber that's you can't buy easily off the shelf.

Just my .02,

Dave

[gnoahhh]

I too applaud your desire to build something worth handing down to future generations, and the .30/06 is as viable today as when it made it's debut 108 years ago.

My 2¢: Go with a M98 Mauser. The finished rifle will be lighter and leaner, all things being equal. I have owned a couple Mausers (and have one now) that I converted to .30/06 and never had to lengthen a magazine box. Perhaps I was lucky, maybe not. The original magazine box is long enough for "factory" length handloads, and unless you have a need to seat your bullets way out that is just fine. Just be sure to have the barrel throated for that length cartridge and you'll be fine. If throated "long" with the attendant necessity to lengthen the OAL of your cartridges, then perhaps the original magazine box will be too short. I would avoid the .308, fine cartridge that it is, because of the need to tweak the frame rails and magazine follower. Then also, there's a lot of extra room in the magazine box in front of the cartridge to allow it to migrate forward and present potential feeding problems from that standpoint. Buddies who went the .308 route experienced one of two things: absolutely no problems, or b*tched and moaned about having to do all kinds of tricks to make them work. To top it all off, the '06 is more versatile than a .308, IMO.

[davidheart]

Thank you all for your input. I'm going to see what I could drum up. I've reserved myself to if I go with a Mauser action to stick with a 8x57 or convert to 7x57 and if I go with a M1917/1903 I'll stick with the 30-06.

I'll let you guys know what I come up with. It's running really hard to find one of these actions for a decent base price!

[davidheart]

I picked up this Czech VZ 24 on gunbroker this morning. Super excited. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=417499317

Now I'm not sure if I should keep the 8mm Mauser or re-barrel to 7x57. My machinist friend continues to interject rebarreling to 30-06 or 35 Whelen (I say no on the Whelen). I'm really tempted by the 7x57 for the availability of high quality 7mm bullets, reported low recoil and BC. Re-barreling to 30-06 tempts me for the obvious reasons.

I also don't see the downside to keeping the 8mm Mauser other than the lack of jacketed bullets for reloading. I know for a fact an 8mm large meplat cast boolit would be incredible. The seller told me it has a really good bore and he's shot it a few times with good success.

I don't want to keep this gun as a pure cast shooter as I'd like to run a maximum hunting range of 600 yards eventually. Thoughts?

[UBER7MM]

David,

Congrats on the VZ-24. They are really well built IMHO. My favorite, except for the straight bolt, my personal preference again. Original pre-WWII models had stocks of nice walnut, and cut on the bulky side. Overall they are a quality made weapon. If you have a good bore, then 8x57. The ones I saw 18 years ago were dog tired. Shot out bores and rust under the wood, but the actions made for nice sporting rifle conversions.
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If you are looking to build a strictly cast 600 yd rifle, you'll need a lot of speed out the door. I recommend that you look up Larry Gibson's posts on RPM and barrel twists. A wealth of knowledge, that man. The 8x57 is a 1:9.5" twist. The .32 Winchester Special is 1:16" cast era rifle.
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If you stay with 8x57, you can push a paper patch sub-groove caliber boolit at 'J'-bullet velocities. Look at the threads on smokeless powder paper patching. Lots of options and years of fun.
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Buy a box of 8x57 or even the dies. Try the gun out and have some fun for now. See if you like the rifle in 8x57. You can always re-barrel later. You won't be sorry if you go with 7x57, either!
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Enjoy,

[davidheart]

That's what I was thinking on the cartridge. When I talked with the guy on the phone he told me it had a really good bore and the barrel was counter-bored at the muzzle. He says he's shot it a bit himself with good success and only decided to sell it because he "gets bored and likes to rotate out the guns". *shrug* Some people are like that I guess.

I'll take a look at the bore myself when it gets here but if it shoots well and I enjoy the feel of the 8x57 then I may stay with it. I'm only a little cautious because as I may have mentioned earlier, I'm recoil shy. I mean, I'm over 200 lbs, but I value my shoulder. We'll see how the rifle handles. I picked up a box of 8x57 surplus ammo today to make a test run.

I wanted a VZ 24 because of all the great things I heard about this variant. From what I have learned the VZ 24 is probably the best M98 variant you could find. I also prefer a bent bolt handle but I'll only change that if and when I decide to change out the stock on the rifle. For now I'll keep it as is, let it stretch it's legs and see how it grows on me.

I'm familiar with the 30-06 information but how does the 7x57 stack up compared to the 8x57 at range? (600 yards) I've been searching around for info but have been coming up oddly dry.

My 30-30 is my strictly cast boolit rifle. This one will shoot both boolits and j-words.

[PAT303]

With the extra work to be done on the Mauser action to convert to a 30 caliber cartridge.... is it worth it? (ie Are the benefits of the Mauser action so awesome as to warrant the modifications?)

The only plus' I know about the mauser action is cock on opening and controlled round feed. and I know the Enfield action is cock on closing. Is there anything else I should consider?
If you want a 30/06 go the Enfield,if you want a mauser cartridge go the mauser,I have both and love both,the M17 is a big brute,there's nothing nancy about it,a real gun. Pat

[siamese4570]

davidheart: I have a 1908 brazilian mauser in 3006 and it works slicker than snot. Just sayin
siamese4570

[flounderman]

I been building rifles from surplus actions for over 50 years. You won't have feeding problems with either a mauser or an enfield. Some mauser magazine boxes are shorter and you can't seat bullets out as much as the enfield. The enfield has a side safety to start with and the bolt handle clears a scope. If you straighten the bolt handle on an Enfield, mill the ears and shorten the bolt release and the receiver rail behind the release, you have a pretty good looking receiver. You still have the bottom metal with the front tang that needs straightening. You can lengthen an 03 milled guard and get a nice looking bottom metal. You can buy an Enfield, use the original barrel, and I haven't seen one that was a bad shooter, mill the ears and drill and tap a hard action and leave everything else original and it will work. The Mausers, some of the turks had small ring threads in a large ring action. You can rethread a takeoff 700 Remington barrel to fit the Mauser and use a correct size bushing between the shoulder and receiver to headspace. The mauser needs drilling and tapping and the bolt handle reworked, the barrel probably won't be good. To use a takeoff barrel on a large ring with standard large ring threads, you can cut the threads off and thread and chamber the shank. The 30-06 or the 308, have more brass, and anything else available, and cheaper than an 8mm. Depending on how much work you can do yourself, you are probably better off with a 1917. If you mill the ears and scope it you have a shootable rifle. If you want to do more later, you can. You can saw the ears off with a hacksaw and file the edges if you are so inclined. There are a lot more mausers out there than Enfields is a plus for the Mausers. The 03 Springfield made a nice rifle but they have gotten kind of pricey since the days we could buy one from the DCM for 15.00. If you want a gun to hand down, stick with the 308 or 30-06. ammunition will be available for them 100 years from now. You don't want a caliber that is going to be obsolete.

[mikeym1a]

If you simply want to buy a rifle, then look on the various sites for a Sears Model 50. It is a 30-06 built of an FN mauser action with a barrel by High Standard, which I believe was chrome lined. I've seen pictures of them, and they are really nice looking rifles. I bought a takeoff barrel from one off fleabay, and the bore looks brand new. All the set up work is already done, and you have a nice clean trim mauser actioned rifle to shoot, and to pass on. The M1917 would be a perfectly acceptable gun, but, they action is not as 'pretty' as the Mauser. Just my thoughts. mikey

[gnoahhh]

That VZ-24 looks a fair treat. Pre-war BRNO quality makes it among the best of the M98's. Good luck with it. I have a wartime BRNO 98 that I left the original barrel on- it was as close to mint as I have ever seen on a military rifle- after re-stocking, receiver sights, custom bolt handle, etc. It is crazy accurate with cast bullets. I definitely dislike the looks of the stepped military Mauser barrel on a custom sporter- it's like, after dropping a ton of money into the build you got cheap at the very end. But, in this instance the original barrel shoots too well to throw it away, so it stays (at least for now).

8 or 7x57 for general shooting to include some long range stuff? Close your eyes and pick one.

I guess you already know, but I'll say it anyway. Scrub the bejapers out of your bore after you shoot that box of 8x57 milsurp ammo. German wartime ammo was generally non-corrosive, but everybody else's 8mm stuff before and since has to be assumed to be corrosive.

[Wayne Smith]

You don't have to scrub after corrosive ammo. Simply clean with enough water to dissolve the salts. Hot water works better. Then clean with Hoppes to get the powder residue out and oil.

[gnoahhh]

True enough, but I once had an '03 barrel develop a nasty case of rust after doing that very procedure. I blame it on corrosive salts being trapped under a pretty severe case of copper fouling that the water and Hoppes didn't touch. (Five or six boxes of pre-war ball ammo banged away fairly rapidly on a hot summer afternoon.)

[hanover67]

I know you are plannig to build a hunting rifle, but for what it is worth, I used a Mauser action to build a .308 match rifle. I bought a 1937 Chilean 7MM barreled action and had my gunsmith rebarrel it with a heavy, 26" .308 barrel, drill the receiver for a Redfield Olympic sight base and the barrel for a Freeland globe sight base. He also bent the bolt handle to clear the rear sight. I then bought a $25 reject target stock from Bishop, installed a forearm rail for the handstop and inletted the rifle into the stock with Accraglas bedding myself.

The gun is very accurate, and consistantly shoots under an inch at 100 yards with handloads. I never had any peoblems with feeding, even in rapid-fire stages. I'm not familiar with Enfields (except the SMLE version), but I wouldn't trade or sell my Mauser.

[Shooter6br]

106440Like my 1917 sporter

[davidheart]

Very nice 1917 Shooter! I love that bolt handle.

I decided to go 7x57 for ballistic coefficients and slight ballistic superiority over the 7mm-08. The 30-06 is a cartridge will yes, be there 100 years from now I do not doubt. But it's so common I'd rather use a 1917/1903 or Walmart rifle which was built for the 30-06. The action I have is a Mauser action and it feel "right" to use a Mauser cartridge, even though I'm rebarreling.

I also like the idea of a cartridge which will fit perfectly in my specific action and if I'm so adventurous (for kicks and giggles) I like the ability to still load via stripper clip if I use a quick detach scope mount or tilting mount.

I'm going to look at the MidwayUSA Green Mountain 21" barrel (seeing how the 24" was discontinued last night) in 7x57 and go from there in the build. [smilie=w:

[Mark Daiute]

Does this have a place in this conversation:

https://www.samcoglobal.com/1-1916.html

Mark

[davidheart]

Does this have a place in this conversation:

https://www.samcoglobal.com/1-1916.html

Mark

I had considered this exact rifle before buying the VZ 24, but after doing a lot of research into the Spanish M1916 Mausers in "308" I opted to stay away. There are people who have fired thousands of rounds in this rifle with no ill effects, but there are also people who have had headspace separation issues by shooting the higher pressured 7.62x51 NATO (which is even lower pressure than 308win) over a short period of time. It won't happen all at once, but little by little the seperation will come until one day the pressures blow out the action. One guy I saw on a forum had reported a feeling of powder blowback on one shot and never took notice. Then on the next shot the action blew and he had deep lacerations to the bone on his hand.

It was not designed for our modern 308 caliber ammo. They were designed for the 308 CETME which has lower pressures.

His wasn't the only report I read. It seemed like a 50/50 shot to get seriously hurt (pun intended).

The only way to remain safe in the M1916 100% of the time is to reload your .308 using 300 Savage data apparently. Not something I wanted to limit myself to.

Again, some people have no issues whatsoever. I chose to err on the side of caution. If you wanted a .308 Mauser the consensus is to get a hold of a large ring long or intermediate action (M48, M98, VZ24) and convert to .308.

[UBER7MM]

Very nice 1917 Shooter! I love that bolt handle.

I decided to go 7x57 for ballistic coefficients and slight ballistic superiority over the 7mm-08. The 30-06 is a cartridge will yes, be there 100 years from now I do not doubt. But it's so common I'd rather use a 1917/1903 or Walmart rifle which was built for the 30-06. The action I have is a Mauser action and it feel "right" to use a Mauser cartridge, even though I'm rebarreling.

I also like the idea of a cartridge which will fit perfectly in my specific action and if I'm so adventurous (for kicks and giggles) I like the ability to still load via stripper clip if I use a quick detach scope mount or tilting mount.

I'm going to look at the MidwayUSA Green Mountain 21" barrel (seeing how the 24" was discontinued last night) in 7x57 and go from there in the build. [smilie=w:

David,
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You can't go wrong with 7x57. No magazine modifications. IMHO, I saw no difference between the 7x57 and 7'08 in reduced cast loads. Same powder charge for load data, IIRC. Definitely, the same boolit. Lyman 287641 160gn.
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As far as the 7x57 goes, my mentor shared this load with me years ago. Load the minimum manual load of IMR-4320 for a jacketed 150 gain flat based spire point. Wow, the old School had it right. Pressures were about 37000 CUP, mild for a 98 Mauser. A great place to start. That 7x57 carbine had a steel butt plate and a 14 contour, 21" barrel and 1:9.5" twist. It was light, maybe 5 lbs, if that. It kicked, even with reduced cast loads. That disqualified it as a wife's or young kid's learning deer rifle. If your recoil sensitive, go with the heavier and longer 34 contour barrel. I've shot both. The weight makes for a more pleasant experience. (Bullet selection also makes a difference. Lighter bullets of the same caliber have less resistance and therefore produce less perceived recoil; all other things being equal.)
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With a short chambered Adams and Bennett or Green Mountain barrel, you should be a able to barrel, chamber cut to the go gauge and then go shooting. You might want to have your action and bolt face trued before the install. Your call. Also, drilling and tapping for a scope or receiver rear sights are easier with the barrel off the action. You may want to improve on the two stage military trigger. I use to go with Timneys, but the Boyds are half the price and seem to install with less work filing and fitting. Both are made in the USA. I went with Timney low profile safeties, but I like the Dayton Traister style better. Same experience with the Timney safeties. They are two piece and require more fiddling to get them to work. Dayton Traister style are one piece and cheaper.
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Rifle modification can be a "pay as you play" situation. It takes longer to get the gun where you want it, if you ever do. There's always a new accessory to add or change out, but the you can start shooting the gun almost immediately. I've been known to "Bubba" the original stock until I could wrangle an aftermarket sportzer model. Just channel out the old stock for the new barrel contour. There's also a wide range of aftermarket stocks for the standard 98 Action Mauser.
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Don't mean to be preaching to the choir, if you've already thought of these things, just brought up some good memories.
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I found this Website. I don't know anything about these guys. They do list 7x57 in 24".
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http://www.switchbarrel.com/Mau_sale.htm
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Series 3 = Large Ring 98 action
34 is a heavy 24" Barrel Contour.
14 is a light weight 21" Barrel Contour.

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I hope this helps,

[davidheart]

I just had a frustrating moment. MidwayUSA had a closeout sale on the Series 3 7x57 Barrels in 24". I didn't realize until I read your post that "Series 3" refers to "Large Ring Mauser" and I had kept debating on the Series 3 F34 contour barrel or the Series 2 F14 contour barrel (for the contour). Now Midway has no more Series 3 barrels in 7x57 unless I special order from Shilen for $250 (vs the $85 barrel from last night)....

Very frustrating because I didn't take the time to notice the one being discontinued was the only barrel they had available for the large ring mausers. So now I'm on the hunt for a reasonably priced barrel. (less than $120)

[UBER7MM]

David,
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Midway has those barrels on sale all the time. The worst you will have to wait would be this time next year. Until then, enjoy the 8x57 chambering. You can also make other minor enhancements to the firearm before the barrel swap out, trigger, safety perhaps even optics, etc....
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Here's a 7mm 1:10" twist barrel blank for $73: (I'd prefer a 1:9 or 1:9.5 for heavier jacketed bullets, but for a 140 grain, this would be prefect. Less recoil.)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/697469/green-mountain-barrel-blank-284-caliber-7mm-centerfire-f34-contour-1-in-10-twist-26-chrome-moly-in-the-white?cm_vc=ProductFinding
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With a barrel blank, you'd need access to a metal lathe to cut the threads. More work than a cutting the chamber on a short chambered barrel with threads. It all depends on the work you were planning to accomplish yourself your (or your gunsmith) and the tools and skills available. You'd still need access to a 7x57 reamer, go gauge and no go gauge with either a barrel blank or short chamber.
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One thing you should know is that the Midway short chambered barrels. The one I purchased (Adams & Bennett) was 1.100" x 12tpi cut to 60º pitch. The Mauser 98 action in its original state is cut to 1.100" x 12tpi 55º Whitworth pitch. The proper solution to mate a Midway barrel to a Mauser 98 action is to purchase a $100 + tap and chase out the action threads to 60º. At the time was dabbling in this expensive hobby, I couldn't justify the money for a "single application" tap. The barrel threaded on the action acceptably as a permanent installation. If you purchased a barrel blank you could cut the barrel threads to 55º and avoid the problem. It involves a special 55º cutting tool for the lathe, IIRC.
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I hope this helps,

[UBER7MM]

I had considered this exact rifle before buying the VZ 24, but after doing a lot of research into the Spanish M1916 Mausers in "308" I opted to stay away. There are people who have fired thousands of rounds in this rifle with no ill effects, but there are also people who have had headspace separation issues by shooting the higher pressured 7.62x51 NATO (which is even lower pressure than 308win) over a short period of time. It won't happen all at once, but little by little the seperation will come until one day the pressures blow out the action. One guy I saw on a forum had reported a feeling of powder blowback on one shot and never took notice. Then on the next shot the action blew and he had deep lacerations to the bone on his hand.

It was not designed for our modern 308 caliber ammo. They were designed for the 308 CETME which has lower pressures.

His wasn't the only report I read. It seemed like a 50/50 shot to get seriously hurt (pun intended).

The only way to remain safe in the M1916 100% of the time is to reload your .308 using 300 Savage data apparently. Not something I wanted to limit myself to.

Again, some people have no issues whatsoever. I chose to err on the side of caution. If you wanted a .308 Mauser the consensus is to get a hold of a large ring long or intermediate action (M48, M98, VZ24) and convert to .308.

I concur. I shot 100s of NATO rounds out of a Spanish 1916. Got a deer with it too, using Noslers. Then I found out the chamber was enlarged. It was time to retire that little carbine. The 98 action is much stronger.

[UBER7MM]

....I'll take a look at the bore myself when it gets here but if it shoots well and I enjoy the feel of the 8x57 then I may stay with it. I'm only a little cautious because as I may have mentioned earlier, I'm recoil shy. I mean, I'm over 200 lbs, but I value my shoulder. We'll see how the rifle handles. I picked up a box of 8x57 surplus ammo today to make a test run.

David,
Try shooting while standing up. That allows your body to rock a little and you won't take as much punishment. I saw a guy one day at the range shooting his 458 Win Mag from the bench. It was brutal to watch. My father in-law walked over and told him the secret of off hand shooting. Probably keep the guy from selling this elephant gun. A rubber slip on pad might also help. US Factory 8x57 ammo is not loaded to maximums as is European specifications. Once you shoot the a box off, you can reload as modestly as you wish.


I'm familiar with the 30-06 information but how does the 7x57 stack up compared to the 8x57 at range? (600 yards) I've been searching around for info but have been coming up oddly dry.

All three of these cartridges were designed for long range shooting. That was the philosophy at the end of the 19th Century until after World War I. Moreover, the old ideas of warfare (bolt action rifles used at long distances) lingered through WWII. All three of the cartridges you've mentioned were initially designed for long distance trench warfare. 600 yards shouldn't be a problem for any of those cartridges.

The 7x57 was Paul Mauser's design and can claim it's accessory from the 8x57. The 7mm Mauser was so impressive during the Spanish American War, that the 30'06 was designed with its shape in mind. Basically, the 30'06 is a scaled up 7x57 to 30 caliber. The British were planning to adopt the 7x57 in the P14, but WWI broke out. The P14 was re-tooled for the 303 British and the US version in 30'06 is the 1917. So in summary, the 7x57 cartridge was well thought of during the turn of the last Century.

[davidheart]

When I shoot standing up I'm not nearly as accurate as when I lay prone or in kneeling/sitting position. My Appleseed AQT scores are a testament to that. My group sizes shrink from 8 inches standing to 1.5 inch group sitting/kneeling and to 1 ragged hole in prone. :-(

I'm still looking to get a 7mm Mauser barrel, but at the moment I'm weighing my options. 30-06 is the furthest from my mind but I'm coming back to idea of the 308.

I want to set up this rifle to reliably shoot (skill level dependent) to 600 yards with both "precision and accuracy". According to Hornady the SST (any weight) is good for hunting to 1650fps and the ballistics of the 139gr looks really good to 700 yards for hunting. Even better than the heavier bullets. According to the guy at Hornady the 162gr A-Max (.625 BC) will expand but they can't recommend it for hunting and they don't know the fps threshold.

What do we know of the Classic 7x57 vs Modern 308?

While I'm weighing my caliber options (please help guys) I'll look at scope mounts, bent bolt handle, stock and side safety.

[UBER7MM]

David,
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7x57, 30'06, 308 will all put meat on the table. They all do the same thing. I'll even throw in 8x57 in the ring too. The camp fire arguments are about the subtleties. (270 Win vs. 280 Rem is well known one). The 308 Win was originally developed as a belt fed machine gun cartridge to replace the 30'06. The 308 is 10% lighter in weight than the 30'06. Doesn't shoot the 220 grain bullets as well, but that's not really a military concern. Soldiers could carry 10% more ammo than for WWI/WWII weapons. The 308 Win is known as an inherently accurate cartridge design. Apparently, so is the 7mm'08. Reloading wise, 30 caliber bullets/boolits are the most plentiful of any caliber. The US military still uses the 308 (7.62 NATO ) round, so ammo will continue to be manufactured for it for a long time. I killed my first deer with a 308; so they work. You'd be happy with a 308 chambered Mauser 98 rifle, once you get around the magazine feeding issues.
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The 30'06 is by far more popular, and one of the top 3 sellers in the US. 30'06, 270 & 30-30. I forget the actual order. There will always be hunting ammo and loading supplies for 30'06. You'd be happy with a 30'06.
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7x57 is a fine flat shooting and well balanced cartridge. It's still around since 1893 and a foreign design as well. Out of the three, it's more of a reloader's cartridge. It's harder to find factory ammo for this round, where 308 and 30'06 are plentiful. It has a mystic and heritage that the 308 has some catching up to do. You'll be happy with a 7x57 Mauser 98 rifle.
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(IMHO, the 7mm'08 is an updated version of the 7x57. The new chambering allows the cartridge to be pushed to pressures of higher modern levels in modern firearms. The concern is with antique 7x57s.)

[davidheart]

Thanks Uber7mm. I'm absolutely sure you're right.

I spent some time last night considering this build and it's cost. Here's what I'm finding:

$225 Czech VZ24 Rifle
$250 24-26" Sporter Barrel
$55 Timney Trigger
$100 Boyd's Rifle Stock
$35 Low Swing Side Safety
$25 Scope Mounts
$300 SWFA 6x42 Scope
$55 Tubb Speedlock Kit

Not to mention bending the bolt handle, jewel the bolt, free float the barrel and bed the action, blueing, and when all is said and done I'm going to cryo treat the action and barrel. We're looking at, including the cost of the rifle well more than $1000 for the finished product.

After pouring over ballistics information and fit of the action. As well factoring my great want to shoot the rifle as much as I want (read: mil surp ammo for plinking and reloading for precision shots) I'm going to say, if I'm spending this much money, I'm not going to be caught dead with a 308/30-06/270 $1200 custom rifle built on a Mauser action. So boo on common calibers. I'm going 7x57 because of worldwide availability (however scant), 7mm reloading components aren't going anywhere any time soon (you cannot get the same ballistics in a 30 cal than you can in a 7mm), mil surp ammo, the fact for "Mauser ammo in a Mauser", historic significance and since this is a custom rifle I'm not going to chamber it in a common, Wal-Mart caliber.

It's going to take a tiny bit longer for my final product, but $100 more out of say.... $1200 is not a big deal.

By the way, I got the rifle in the other day and 8x57 is quite the shooter! My first 3 shots with Romanian mil surp at 50 yards (for giggles) was within 1 inch. It's a huge "PUSH" caliber and not so much the "SNAP" pain I receive from the 30-06. I'm sure the rifle weight plays into this though. I just took 8 shots and didn't feel any pain until about 4-5 hours later, which I thought was odd.

The bore doesn't have any pitting I saw after thorough cleaning, but the lands and grooves are very shallow, which I'll imagine is common in an old military barrel? I'm going to keep the stock and barrel in it's original condition and I'll end up selling both to recover some cost of the final build.

[UBER7MM]

David,

We're on the same sheet of music.