Hard Primers or Light Spring or ??

[alamogunr]

I have a S&W Model 65-3 w/3" bbl. that I bought used(Probably a police trade-in). I had the hammer bobbed and an action job done. I need to practice a lot to be able to shoot DAO and consequently, cast and reload a lot of .38's.

I started using Wolf primers since I want to save my WW and others. These have resulted in misfires. Inspection of the primers shows light strikes. Firing these rounds in my Highway Patrolman results in these rounds firing normally with the exception of one round.

In both guns, but especially the Model 65, the indentation of the primer is less than normal. I interpreted this that the 65 had a lighter hammer fall but also that the Wolf primers had a harder cup than my WW primers.

Has anyone else experienced this? Is my analysis on target or should something else be considered?

[Love Life]

Yes, your analysis is correct. I had a trigger job done and swapped to Remington SPP. However, I got a bad batch of Remington primers so once these are gone I will load my 38 Specials with Federal primers only. You can remove the grips and do a half turn on the screw. That may help and relly won't hurt your trigger job much...if at all.

[BK7saum]

Bobbing the hammer removed a significant amount of mass and therefore reduced the force of the hammer strike.

If you can, increase the mainspring tension buy tightening mainspring strain screw under the grip. You should be able to achieve a nice action job without backing off the mainspring tension, but a lot of folks decrease mainspring tension as a short cut and reduce the reliability of the handgun.

If the mainspring strain screw is tightened all the way, then determine if it was shortened where it makes contact with the mainspring and replace it with a new (unmodified) one. (sometimes the screw is shortened so that the screw can be tightened and not back off, but still provide decreased mainspring tension via a shortened screw).

Just a couple of possibilities.

Brad

[BK7saum]

Decreasing the mainspring tension can lighten the trigger pull, but not as effectively as shortening the hammer rebound spring, and at the expense of decreased reliability.

[odis]

Love Life in post #2 mentions a bad batch of Rem primers, for 10 bucks more per 1000 than all of the rest they are all bad to me. Back on topic bobbing the hammer sounds like it could be the problem to me.

[alamogunr]

Love Life in post #2 mentions a bad batch of Rem primers, for 10 bucks more per 1000 than all of the rest they are all bad to me. Back on topic bobbing the hammer sounds like it could be the problem to me.

I sincerely hope not. Too much money tied up in the mods. I checked the mainspring screw and it was bottomed out. If the length had been changed, I couldn't tell it. Where can a replacement screw be obtained. I checked Brownell's web site but couldn't find that particular item.

Right now it seems my only option is to load some rounds using the WW primers that I have on hand. The Wolf primers seem to be OK in the Highway Patrolman. I was planning to load a bunch of WC loads for that gun anyway.

[Love Life]

Why are you saving the WW primers?

[BK7saum]

Brownells does carry the mainspring strain screws. If you can pull up a schematic for it will give you the item number. I have ordered some from Brownells in the past. I probably have an extra but I've got all my stuff packed away at the moment

[FergusonTO35]

I have experienced a multitude of hard CCI primers over the past few years. Encountered a few Remington as well. I'm currently redoing my defense and hunting loads to use only Federal primers.

[BK7saum]

One quick thing you could do to check the reliability is place a piece of shim stock between the strain screw the mainspring. Just a few thousand should be enough.

[Piedmont]

I checked the mainspring screw and it was bottomed out. If the length had been changed, I couldn't tell it. Where can a replacement screw be obtained. I checked Brownell's web site but couldn't find that particular item.

Right now it seems my only option is to load some rounds using the WW primers that I have on hand. The Wolf primers seem to be OK in the Highway Patrolman. I was planning to load a bunch of WC loads for that gun anyway.

Take a fired primer that the anvil part has detached from so that it is just a cup. Unscrew the strain screw and put that primer cup over the end that bears against the hammer spring. Bottom out the screw again. This will give you several thousandths more pressure on the spring. Now go shooting and see if that fixed the problem.

If it did, you can get a new strain screw, or not.

[BK7saum]

Thank you, Piedmont. I was trying to think of a suitable material for a shim. A fired primer is perfect and what I was trying to remember.

Brad

[alamogunr]

Why are you saving the WW primers?

Just in case. Actually, I have nearly 10K of the Wolf and want to use them up.



Take a fired primer that the anvil part has detached from so that it is just a cup. Unscrew the strain screw and put that primer cup over the end that bears against the hammer spring. Bottom out the screw again. This will give you several thousandths more pressure on the spring. Now go shooting and see if that fixed the problem.

If it did, you can get a new strain screw, or not.

I will try that. I knew that coffee can full of spent primers would come in handy some day. It will probably be a few days before I can get out again. In the meantime, I'll look up the screw on a schematic.

[BK7saum]

Brownell's lists a model 65 Round butt strain screw as 940-072-280WB.

Not sure if your 65 is round butt or square. The strain screw for several models is the same within the K-frame family, but not sure if round butt and square butt strain screws are. Probably not since they are specifically listed.

However, I would bet that the spent primer over the strain screw will fix your problem and allow you to shoot the wolf primers without any failure to ignite issues. If you noticed, the last little turn before the strain screw is snug really puts tension on the mainspring.

Best of luck,

Brad

[BK7saum]

Here is where the smith schematics are found. Sometimes you have to go back a few iterations. For example, not all parts for a 686-6 will be listed, but they will be on a 686-1, -2, or a -3. Or if you know that the frame configuration is the same. For example, some/most 586 parts will fit a 686, especially common parts like strain screws and springs, etc.

http://www.brownells.com/schematics/Smith-Wesson--mid111.aspx

[alamogunr]

Thanks for that info. I was going to the shop to look it up in the Brownell's catalog. That book for me is sort of like the Sears Roebuck catalog when I was a kid.

I guess I could pull the strain screw from a 686 and compare it to the 65.

Thanks again to everyone. I'll get this worked out eventually

[kweidner]

Take a fired primer that the anvil part has detached from so that it is just a cup. Unscrew the strain screw and put that primer cup over the end that bears against the hammer spring. Bottom out the screw again. This will give you several thousandths more pressure on the spring. Now go shooting and see if that fixed the problem.

If it did, you can get a new strain screw, or not.

Got to remember that. GREAT idea!

[alamogunr]

Thanks for that info. I was going to the shop to look it up in the Brownell's catalog. That book for me is sort of like the Sears Roebuck catalog when I was a kid.

I guess I could pull the strain screw from a 686 and compare it to the 65.



Brownell's lists the strain screw for round butt "K" frames(which mine is). I looked at my 686 but the screw is much longer for the square butt "L" frame.

The primer cup changes the trigger pull appreciably. It is kind of hard to compare the "K" frame to the "L" frame. The triggers are much different. My 65 may have been narrowed slightly when the smith polished it for double action.

I'll be trying this modification next week and then decide whether to order the new strain screw. I can't see where it would hurt to leave the primer cup in place temporarily. It can't move around much since I used a small primer cup.

[Char-Gar]

Bobbing the hammer removed a significant amount of mass and therefore reduced the force of the hammer strike.

If you can, increase the mainspring tension buy tightening mainspring strain screw under the grip. You should be able to achieve a nice action job without backing off the mainspring tension, but a lot of folks decrease mainspring tension as a short cut and reduce the reliability of the handgun.

If the mainspring strain screw is tightened all the way, then determine if it was shortened where it makes contact with the mainspring and replace it with a new (unmodified) one. (sometimes the screw is shortened so that the screw can be tightened and not back off, but still provide decreased mainspring tension via a shortened screw).

Just a couple of possibilities.

Brad

That would be my thinking as well. When you bob the hammer you are looking for ignition issues even if everything else is factory stock. The most effective way to lighten the DA trigger pull is to shoot the handgun a few thousand times. These handguns just get slicker with use. Folks who do action jobs and jack with the springs are just putting artificial wear on the parts. In took me some years and a number of Smith and Wesson DA sixgun in which I induced ignition problem and unreliability to learn this and quite messing with the springs etc.

[Old School Big Bore]

Just bought several thousand Rem LPs and have been having misfires in my M29 and my buddy's M57. We will be going to Federals since WWs are unobtainable here. Yes losing mass on the hammer doubtless contributed to the problem. If you're sure you want the hammer to be spurless, your smith can bore a hole in the body of the hammer and stake in a Mallory metal disc which will add appreciable mass. S&W can tell you the stock length of your strain screw but they will want to have the serial number regardless what model and dash it is, and have your chips dips & soda ready because you will be on hold for...a...while. I can measure the one on my M66 for you if you'd like; I have to take it apart in a couple days anyway. Also take a good look at the mainspring...some of the aftermarket ones have either a differently formed or missing locator lug at the bottom, where a factory spring has a definite integral lug forged into the bottom edge. It could just need a new stock spring.
Ed

[Piedmont]

I knew that coffee can full of spent primers would come in handy some day. It will probably be a few days before I can get out again. In the meantime, I'll look up the screw on a schematic.

I've thrown out many 10,000s of spent primers. Found out on this board they are brass, even though many are silver colored. They get saved now and one day will make a trip to the scrap yard to sell them. I have a M15 S&W that I used that trick on and that primer cup is going nowhere so I never bought a longer screw.

[Piedmont]

Thank you, Piedmont. I was trying to think of a suitable material for a shim. A fired primer is perfect and what I was trying to remember.

Brad

You sure had the right idea and we were typing at the same time.

[alamogunr]

Just bought several thousand Rem LPs and have been having misfires in my M29 and my buddy's M57. We will be going to Federals since WWs are unobtainable here. Yes losing mass on the hammer doubtless contributed to the problem. If you're sure you want the hammer to be spurless, your smith can bore a hole in the body of the hammer and stake in a Mallory metal disc which will add appreciable mass. S&W can tell you the stock length of your strain screw but they will want to have the serial number regardless what model and dash it is, and have your chips dips & soda ready because you will be on hold for...a...while. I can measure the one on my M66 for you if you'd like; I have to take it apart in a couple days anyway. Also take a good look at the mainspring...some of the aftermarket ones have either a differently formed or missing locator lug at the bottom, where a factory spring has a definite integral lug forged into the bottom edge. It could just need a new stock spring.
Ed

The spring does have the lug at the bottom edge. I don't know if it conforms to what you have described. I just remembered that I have a Model 19 in the safe. It is a square butt though. Would the mainspring be the same? I guess I could look it up in the Brownell's catalog.

To explain why I have this gun, I intended it to be a "truck" gun or a carry gun. I have had some other problems which knocked it out as a carry gun. I probably will go back to a semi-auto even though I prefer revolvers.

[youngmman]

Lots of good advice here but I would add that Brownell's carry's different weight main springs and rebound slide springs for the old style S&W pistols. The rebound slide spring isn't as reliable if it is shortened so a full length one but of lesser weight should keep the weight of pull down. The strain screw shouldn't be backed off at all. I'll bet the Mo. 65 was tinkered with when the action job was done: Time sweat and crocus cloth makes for a smoother action than monkeying with the springs. "Reliable ignition is more important than weight of pull", Bill Jordan in "No second place winner"

[alamogunr]

Sorry to be resurrecting this thread but thought some who posted to it might like to hear what I found out.

Almost a year ago I started this thread about my problems with a S&W Model 65 that I had modified to a DAO by bobbing the hammer. Then I started having problems with misfires with my reloads using Wolf primers. One suggestion that was easy to implement was to place a fired primer under the mainspring screw. Since then life happened and I have not had opportunity to go to the range to test. Finally made it yesterday.

Out of 36 rounds fired in the 65, eleven failed to fire. Those eleven were subsequently fired in a Model 28 Highway Patrolman. Of these, 2 failed to fire. The firing pin indent on the nine that fired was much more pronounced. The 2 that failed had a slightly greater indent but not much.

This tells me that the Wolf primers have harder cups and some are very hard. I guess I will try to use these primers on plinking ammo in the M28 and just tear down those that won't fire and not use them at all in the DAO M65.

[Outpost75]

Back.in the day when cops carried wheelguns and dinosaurs ruled the earth, duty action jobs entailed only breaking the corner wire edge of the rebound slide corner to ease trigger return and taking one coil only off the rebound spring. Striker indent was measured using a copper crusher held in a max cartridge gage having a recess to hold the copper. Minimum Cu indent on the govt gage was 0.010 for .38 Special, .0.011" for .357 and 0.012 for 9mm and. 45. JGS has the drawings for the gage holder, but Olin does not sell the coppers to the gunsmith trade, only to the arms makers who must meet the indent specs. for contracts, and for the government labs. Last time I bought coppers they cost about $1 each with a minimum order of 1000. Lacking the govt gage and coppers, recommended practice is to test fire 100 rounds, pass on zero misfires, retest another 100 rounds if you get a misfire. Reject is 1% on retest or 2 in 200. 1 in 200 is classed as a minor category defect. If two guns in daily 13 piece sample are accepted on minors, another 13 guns would be tested. Repeat test of two guns failing in 26 or 5 accepted on minors that day's production would be returned to the shop floor for rework and retest. That was how it usex to be done.

[alamogunr]

Right now I'm inclined to accept that the Wolf primers have variable hardness cups and move on as posted. I also have 5K large pistol primers that I have had no problems with.

I will keep a record of failures as I use up the primers but I don't intend to load up 200 rounds just for the purpose of testing. I'm afraid the results would mirror the nearly 1/3rd failure rate from yesterday.

After reading what I just typed, there is no difference between testing and keeping a record.

[cowboy]

Howdy- On reflection, too short a rebound slide spring is likewise bad for reliability, and can keep you from fast follow up if needed ( have read that Ed McGivern used full power springs only ) . I have tried to walk the line on trigger pull vs reliable ignition by testing with CCI primers, (reputed to be less sensitive or having harder cups ) If it sets those loads off 100% of the time, I'm feeling good about it being good to go with any factory load of good repute. I DO have an old PPC gun that gets excused because, heck, it's job is to punch paper with only it's favorite handload, and that includes Federal primers. My "cowboy" guns get Federals, too, but have to set off CCIs, to be reliable.

[CATTLEMAN]

As mentioned bobbing the hammer can up the chances of getting a light strike. I had a snub nose revolver tuned by a VERY talented smith, who I recently realized posts here occasionally, and he bobed the hammer and did a DAO conversion at my request. It would always work if fired rapidly as it was intended to be used (in self defence), but if fired carefully and slowly it would often misfire. I eventually replaced the hammer with an unaltered one and the problem stopped. This is not a criticism of the smith who I have a lot of respect for, I was young enough back then to still "know it all" and ignored his advice to only semi bob the hammer and leave the single action function in the gun.

[tazman]

I recently acquired a S&W K38 Target Masterpiece with a wonderful trigger. It would occasionally misfire in DA mode. When I checked the strain screw, it had obviously been modified. The spring end of the screw had tool marks and had been beveled.
I tried the primer cup over the strain screw trick and it worked. I have since replaced the strain screw with an unmodified one. It made little to no effect on the trigger pull but completely eliminated the light strikes.

[Petrol & Powder]

The fallacy of backing out the strain screw has been covered extensively in other threads and a little bit on this thread. I think most people understand that screw is not a mainspring adjustment screw but you still run into a few bubbas' that will claim otherwise.

CCI primers do seem to require the most force to ignite and Federal seems to be the easiest to set off with Remington and WW somewhere in the middle. I'm not sure where Wolf primers fall in that evaluation.

As for bobbed hammers and reliability, I can address that issue.
Yes, removing the hammer spur does reduce the hammer's mass but if done properly it will not reduce reliability. When you examine the total mass of the hammer, the spur makes up a small portion of the hammer's weight. Removing a little weight from the hammer can actually increase the speed of the hammer fall (reduced lock time) but there's a limit to that effect. Obviously reducing hammer weight to speed up lock time will reach a point of diminishing returns. At some point the increased acceleration provided by the lighter hammer will plateau and the mass will be insufficient to set off the primer. There's a limit to the amount of energy available from the mainspring and the amount of acceleration possible.

Where folks run into trouble with bobbing hammers is when they lighten the hammer AND reduce the mainspring tension. You can reduce the mainspring tension in connection with a bobbed hammer but the window of reliability gets much narrower with a light hammer. I have several revolvers with bobbed hammers; some bobbed by me and some that came from the factory. They are 100% reliable with all primers but I took great care on the ones I worked on.

[alamogunr]

Until I started using the Wolf primers I had no problems. The fact that most of the non-firing rounds from the DAO S&W did fire when used in the Highway Patrolman, does seem to indicate that the DAO has a lighter strike. But, some rounds not firing in the HP would seem to support the theory that the Wolf primer cups are harder and of variable hardness.

If I can find some Federal primers, I will try them in the DAO S&W. That may be the only way to get complete reliability without returning the gun to the gunsmith that performed the original work. I've got too much money tied up in this gun as it is.

I'm also going to have to bone up on S&W terminology(rebound slide spring) to be able to understand fully what is going on.

[Petrol & Powder]

rebound slide spring = trigger return spring

The trigger on a S&W DA revolver is reset by the "rebound slide". That "rebound slide" contains the trigger return spring and the slide accomplishes multiple functions (trigger reset, controls the hammer block safety, etc. ). I'm sure someone a little more computer savvy can post a photograph of a K-frame with the side plate removed and the rebound slide identified.

And just so we don't wander too far into the tall weeds, the rebound slide spring has an effect on the trigger pull weight but no effect on the force applied to the hammer. The hammer is powered by the mainspring (flat leaf spring contained in the grip frame).

[Tatume]

I've thrown out many 10,000s of spent primers. Found out on this board they are brass, even though many are silver colored. They get saved now and one day will make a trip to the scrap yard to sell them. I have a M15 S&W that I used that trick on and that primer cup is going nowhere so I never bought a longer screw.

Scrap yards here won't take them. The chance of a live primer in the batch is too great.

[FergusonTO35]

I have redone all my defense and hunting loads to use W-W primers, except for the really small pistols which get Federal. I have never experienced a hard W-W primer and they show 30-40 extra fps over my chronograph in 9mm and .38 Special. They also have far fewer pierced primers than others. I always buy some W-W primers when I encounter them. The Remington and CCI I have remaining are for practice only.

[Gus Youmans]

alamogunr,

I have been using Tula primers, which I have been told are made in the same factory as the Wolf primers, and have been experiencing misfires even with factory springs in a current production S&W Model 66 and Ruger SP-101. Winchester, Federal and CCI primers all work without a hitch, leading me to believe that Tula uses very hard cups. The Tula primers work without a hitch in my Glock 19 and Springfield 1911 9mm, so that is all I use them for.

Gus Youmans

[alamogunr]

Thanks for that info. I haven't tried the Wolf's in the Glock 19. Since I also have a Glock 21, it may be a way to use the Wolf large pistol primers.

[Char-Gar]

Have you fired your slicked up 65 with primers other than Wolf to check reliability, or are you just blaming Wolf primers without any comparison.

I say this because of my original post some time back. My bet is your reliability will be less than 100% with several makes of primers. It is my opinion that a revolver should give 100% reliability with ANY make of primers. If it does not, it is time to look at the mechanics of the revolver.

[alamogunr]

See Post #25. Prior to using the Wolf primers I used WW primers in this gun exclusively. Had 100% reliability. Since I had a fair amount of WW primers I didn't try to acquire any others except the Wolf and those because they were cheap. Since then primers of any brand have been hard to find.

"Out of 36 rounds fired in the 65, eleven failed to fire. Those eleven were subsequently fired in a Model 28 Highway Patrolman. Of these, 2 failed to fire. The firing pin indent on the nine that fired was much more pronounced. The 2 that failed had a slightly greater indent but not much."(from Post #25)

The difference in indentation of the rounds fired in the HP is the reason I suspect hardness of the Wolf primers.

[Mal Paso]

Wolf are harder than CCI It has been said it's because they don't change specifications from military ammo. Primer es primer, Da?

Winchester has had piercing issues too. Saw a S&W 610 with much of the pin bushing eroded.

Brownells has brand new S&W factory springs cheap. If you are ordering a screw, you might have them throw in a spring. Aftermarket springs are just lighter and not as well made.

I got a lot of FTF experience with that notorious batch of Winchester primers before they got "Sensitive".

[azrednek]

Until I started using the Wolf primers I had no problems. The fact that most of the non-firing rounds from the DAO S&W did fire when used in the Highway Patrolman, does seem to indicate that the DAO has a lighter strike. But, some rounds not firing in the HP would seem to support the theory that the Wolf primer cups are harder and of variable hardness.

I shot up 1,000 Wolf LP without a single failure. The majority were fired in a Rugar Blackhawk Convertible and a S&W 25-2. Most shot in the S&W were shot S/A. I did how ever shoot apx 2-250 of the Wolf in D/A mode in a S&W Model of 1988 without a single dud. I had a few failures in D/A mode using Tula primers in the 1988 but I was shooting ACP brass without moon clips shooting home cast lead. Best I recall all shot on the second attempt. The Tulas in clips and AR brass best I recall were 100%.


Why are you saving the WW primers?

I don't believe the question was directed toward me but I can say I'm saving my Winchester primers as well. To the best of my knowledge I can not recall ever having a primer related failure with Winchester primers. I'll use my S&B and Tula brands for tin can hunting and punching holes in paper. If the need arises and I need ammo for self defense. That is when my Winchester primers will be used.

[alamogunr]

Resurrecting this thread for a 2nd or 3rd time. I ordered a new mainspring from Brownell's along with another strain screw. After installing them, All I had time for was a little dry firing. The new spring increased trigger pull considerably. I may have turned the strain screw in too far but at this point backing it out wouldn't be productive until I get out to shoot some of my reloads. First ones will be those with Wolf primers. I'm expecting(hoping) 100% reliability.

I don't know when that will be. Grandson is playing in state baseball tournament. Grandma says we are going(3 hour drive) and if they win first game may go again.

[tazman]

Keep us posted. As always, the family comes first. The gun will wait for you.

[azrednek]

I may have turned the strain screw in too far but at this point backing it out wouldn't be productive until I get out to shoot some of my reloads. First ones will be those with Wolf primers. I'm expecting(hoping) 100% reliability.

Ben a few years since I read it here or another group. There was a method to setting the screw if one does not have a trigger pull gauge. Best I recall the method says how many or how much to rotate the screw after it makes contact. Possibly I have bass akwards and it was how much to back screw out after it is in all the way.

Hopefully one of our S&W aficionados could chime in here with a suggestion.

[Petrol & Powder]

Ben a few years since I read it here or another group. There was a method to setting the screw if one does not have a trigger pull gauge. Best I recall the method says how many or how much to rotate the screw after it makes contact. Possibly I have bass akwards and it was how much to back screw out after it is in all the way.

Hopefully one of our S&W aficionados could chime in here with a suggestion.


"... Hopefully one of our S&W aficionados could chime in here with a suggestion." - YES, The answer is you don't back it out at ALL!


The strain screw is NOT an adjustment screw! You bottom it out and leave it alone.
If you know how, the mainspring can be slightly re-arched to alter the power of the spring. The other acceptable method is to replace the mainspring.
Some people advocate shortening the factory installed strain screw and re-installing it but that is generally frowned upon by S&W trained armorers.
The strain screw is designed so that the head of the screw bottoms out in the frame. The other end of the screw pre-loads the main spring and locks the mainspring into the frame. If you shorten the "tail" of the screw (the part that contacts the spring) you will reduce the amount of pre-load and therefore reduce the force the spring applies to the lock work. I do not advocate that method but some people do. In any event the head of the screw should always be completely bottomed out in the frame when the gun is assembled.

[Petrol & Powder]

Allow me to soften this up just a bit. I'm not trying to be a jerk but this is one of those issues that has been around for a long time and just will not die.
The S&W K, L & N frames utilize a flat leaf spring (mainspring) to power the hammer. The lower end of that spring is locked into a cut in the grip frame by the strain screw. The strain screw also pre-loads the mainspring. The strain screw allows for the removal and replacement of the mainspring but it was never intended to be an "adjustment" screw.
One common method to reduce DA pull weight was to remove the screw, file a little bit of material off the tip and then re-install the screw. Although that was a common method it was never really a good method. If you took too much off the screw the solution was a new screw or a spent primer cup could be placed over the tip to "add" material back on. You can find countless revolver competitors that will acknowledge they altered a strain screw in search of a lighter trigger pull. Competition is one thing, self defense is a whole different ball game.
Where the problems really occurred is when people would loosen the strain screw so that the head of the screw was not bottomed out in the frame. That resulted in the same reduction of pull weight as shortening the screw but there is nothing to prevent the screw from backing out on its own. So a gun that was marginally reliable could become totally unreliable with no further action from the operator. In fact, the screw can work out to the point that the gun is inoperable. In some cases the screw can work out until it is lost.

So, although shortening the strain screw was a common method employed by competition shooters to reduce DA pull weight it is not an ideal method. Loosening the stain screw is a VERY bad method and should not be done under any circumstances.

[alamogunr]

Thanks, P&P for explaining this. I would imagine I'm not the only one who needed some education on S&W revolvers. I would not even begin to try to "re-arch" the mainspring. It may take some getting used to, but I would rather the gun be reliable than have a too light trigger pull.

I don't know what, if anything the smith did to the spring to lighten the pull. Since it was a used gun to start with, it may have lost too much tension anyway.

As I said in the earlier post, it may be awhile before I can get away to try it with the Wolf primed ammunition. While I'm going to ball games, other things SWMBO wants done are going undone but not forgotten.

[bedbugbilly]

I use CCI for all of my 38s and never had a problem in regards to "hard ones" . . .

Anyways . . . . before you do a bunch of spring mods, etc. - if you have other brands of primers then load a couple cylinders full or each brand primer and see if the other brands show a lighter dimple as well. That will show you if your Wolf primers are too hard. It sounds like a "primer shortage" of other brands is why you are using the Wolfs. If other brands will work though and are available, there can't be that much difference in the price of them is there? Personally, if I could get another brand that would work and had to pay just a kosh more for 'em but they would work, it would save a lot of work as far as doing a spring job, etc. You might also check the firing pin - any significant wear to it from extended use?

[alamogunr]

I've got an adequate supply of WSP and WLP. Yes, I bought the Wolf primers because the price was considerably lower. I would never try to use them for serious work, just plinking.

The problem with the Wolf primers was that the dimple varied from one fired case to another. On average, a cylinder would have 2 FTF and those primers would show a very slight indent.

I hadn't thought of the firing pin being a problem. I'll check it but not sure I would recognize a problem. Any insight?

[Petrol & Powder]

Yea, if there's a firing pin on the hammer of your model 65, it is probably OK.

Don't do a D**M thing until you try that gun out after changing the mainspring. I'll be willing to bet it will work just fine.

[44man]

If the hammer spring is against the frame portion it is as good as you will get it. The strain screw should push the spring into contact. That screw has only one purpose, to remove the spring, NOTHING MORE. It is NOT a trigger adjustment.
But guys fool with grinding the spring too. The hammer spring needs strong to fire any primer on earth. Bobbing the hammer might have been a bad choice too. Any gunsmith worth his salt should know better. But you get what you ask for.
Every single revolver I own has OVER POWER HAMMER SPRINGS. A lighter hammer needs driven a lot faster.

[alamogunr]

If the hammer spring is against the frame portion it is as good as you will get it. The strain screw should push the spring into contact. That screw has only one purpose, to remove the spring, NOTHING MORE. It is NOT a trigger adjustment.
But guys fool with grinding the spring too. The hammer spring needs strong to fire any primer on earth. Bobbing the hammer might have been a bad choice too. Any gunsmith worth his salt should know better. But you get what you ask for.
Every single revolver I own has OVER POWER HAMMER SPRINGS. A lighter hammer needs driven a lot faster.

I did get what I asked for, but I asked because of what I had read in several different places. Live and learn. The new spring definitely increased the trigger pull. I am hoping that translates into a harder hammer strike.

I guess you are saying the same thing that Petrol & Powder said: The screw should be turned in all the way.

[azrednek]

I have to disagree as far as the adjustment of the strain screw but my case may be simply a fluke or possibly bad parts. I ordered spring and screw from Numrich for a 1917 Brazilian 45.

After installing the spring, turning in screw as far as it would go. D/A pull was nearly impossible and thumbing the hammer for S/A was nearly impossible.

Been way to many years to remember the formula I used after reading something here or somewhere else on the net. It was either a certain number of rotations after the spring made contact or backing off after bottoming out the screw.

I can speculate that possibly the screw was over sized and meant to be ground or filed down for a custom trigger pull. To the best of my recollection I have not changed the screw since and it still works just fine.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'll take some exception to the idea that bobbing a hammer is universally a bad idea. While it is true that removing a hammer spur reduces the hammers' mass, it reduces it only slightly. The bulk of the hammer's mass is located outside of the area occupied by the spur. A slightly lighter hammer may actually have a faster lock time than a heavier hammer but there's a limit to that balance between mass and speed.
I've bobbed quite a few hammers and when done properly with a factory spring the guns remain 100% reliable. Where people get into trouble is when they bob hammers and reduce the power of the mainspring. You can drop the available kinetic energy of the hammer to a point where it will not reliably ignite primers.
While a stronger hammer spring may decrease lock time (make the hammer fall faster) it will also increase the double action pull weight. There's limit to that faster lock time as well. You can't infinitely increase hammer speed by simply increasing the power of the hammer spring. Like a lot of things, there's a compromise involved. A lighter hammer (to a point) will have More kinetic energy because it will have faster lock time but there's a limit to the benefit of that increased kinetic energy. If you remove too much mass you will also reduce the available kinetic energy. It's a balancing act.

[alamogunr]

I'll take some exception to the idea that bobbing a hammer is universally a bad idea. While it is true that removing a hammer spur reduces the hammers' mass, it reduces it only slightly. The bulk of the hammer's mass is located outside of the area occupied by the spur. A slightly lighter hammer may actually have a faster lock time than a heavier hammer but there's a limit to that balance between mass and speed.
I've bobbed quite a few hammers and when done properly with a factory spring the guns remain 100% reliable. Where people get into trouble is when they bob hammers and reduce the power of the mainspring. You can drop the available kinetic energy of the hammer to a point where it will not reliably ignite primers.
While a stronger hammer spring may decrease lock time (make the hammer fall faster) it will also increase the double action pull weight. There's limit to that faster lock time as well. You can't infinitely increase hammer speed by simply increasing the power of the hammer spring. Like a lot of things, there's a compromise involved. A lighter hammer (to a point) will have More kinetic energy because it will have faster lock time but there's a limit to the benefit of that increased kinetic energy. If you remove too much mass you will also reduce the available kinetic energy. It's a balancing act.

Like most things in life.

[44man]

I have to disagree as far as the adjustment of the strain screw but my case may be simply a fluke or possibly bad parts. I ordered spring and screw from Numrich for a 1917 Brazilian 45.

After installing the spring, turning in screw as far as it would go. D/A pull was nearly impossible and thumbing the hammer for S/A was nearly impossible.

Been way to many years to remember the formula I used after reading something here or somewhere else on the net. It was either a certain number of rotations after the spring made contact or backing off after bottoming out the screw.

I can speculate that possibly the screw was over sized and meant to be ground or filed down for a custom trigger pull. To the best of my recollection I have not changed the screw since and it still works just fine.
It was the parts and gun. S&W works hard with most springs to reach a balance for DA and SA.
I still have some issues with S&W springs like hammer bounce to near full cock, backwards rotation of cylinders so you get double pin strikes or even rotation to the last chamber. If there is a round there it can double.
The Smith is designed for a tight strain screw.
Guys cut the rebound slide spring and it takes very little before the trigger will not reset. Better to buy a lighter spring with the reach needed. The cylinder stop springs have always been a problem.
The love of a Smith is the wonderful trigger pulls and things can still suffer.
A pound here and there can destroy accuracy or make a gun unsafe.
Long ago it was published to thin the Smith hammer spring and polish it. Bad idea!
Take slow motion video of the gun firing and watch the hammer. Watch the hammer on Ruger SA. If you don't think internal primer pressure will not kick a Ruger hammer back, maybe you should look into it. Why the cylinder does not turn is a mystery since the hand is on the hammer.
Remember some old Colt SA's that would run full auto with a punctured primer from the wrong pin design?
Revolvers are the trickiest things to fool with. You MUST understand every operation of the gun.
I know the Ruger's and BFR's best but also know the S&W, having owned many. I wanted a much lighter Ruger trigger so found if the trigger kicks your finger, the gun needs a long enough transfer bar to stay on the pin so I made my own. My BFR 45-70 is 19 oz. All with Wolfe over power springs on hammers. 26# springs.
Get it wrong and you can have a hang fire or failure to fire. Less primer impact ALWAYS results in accuracy loss. Forget the "lock time", it is impact. A primer that barely fires or the need for a different primer means the gun is wrong. I trust NOBODY to do my triggers and after 61 years of revolvers I would never in a second tell you to use a different primer.
Do you know how to make a trigger perfect at 1-1/2# on a Colt SA? Without the trigger hitting the half cock or safety notch? Same on the old Ruger 3 screw?
Tell me how. I know you can research what I said before but good luck.
Petrol has explained the balance needed, experience from work. The backyard mechanic usually fails. The internet is full of them.

[retread]

I sincerely hope not. Too much money tied up in the mods. I checked the mainspring screw and it was bottomed out. If the length had been changed, I couldn't tell it. Where can a replacement screw be obtained. I checked Brownell's web site but couldn't find that particular item.

Right now it seems my only option is to load some rounds using the WW primers that I have on hand. The Wolf primers seem to be OK in the Highway Patrolman. I was planning to load a bunch of WC loads for that gun anyway.

Look for parts at http://www.jackfirstgun.com/

[alamogunr]

Look for parts at http://www.jackfirstgun.com/

I'm familiar w/Jack First. What am I looking for. I have a replacement mainspring and strain screw.

[funnyjim014]

I bought a 64-3 from jg sales, police trade in, bobbed hammer.....had the same problem. Light hits with winchester primers. I took a brass shim( slice of a name plate from a old bowling trophy lol) and put it between the screw (bottomed out) and spring... works like a dream. Was susposed to be temporary but have put over 10k threw it...ill get around to it

[Petrol & Powder]

I'd be willing to bet someone shortened that screw on that 64-3 before you got the gun.

[44man]

I just had a Taurus revolver with a God awful trigger pull. The trigger spring was a Ford truck axle spring. I made a new spring and it is a wonder now. Never messed with the hammer spring or metal.