Cast boolit load development utilizing IMR 4064

[Pb2au]

After an interesting exchange in the powder forum concerning the use of 4064 in general, a few us realized that there was enough interest to pool our disparate efforts in load development for the 8mm Mauser with 4064 to start a proper thread on it.
I will also say that those that choose to join in, even if the cartridge you are working on is something else besides the 8mm Mauser, for sure chime in as all info and results will be of great value.
As I said in another thread, I could be tilting at windmills, but so far my results are encouraging, and at the very least I will come out with a better understanding.

I will start organizing some of my results thus far, and get a solid start.
Thanks!

[JWFilips]

Pb2au Ok found the thread I'm here.

When I was working on my worn JP Sauer Mauser this past winter My good friend Larry Miller sent me this quote from Veral Smith's book titled "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets"
quote from Veral's book. " soft bullets will require slower powders than harder bullets. Often the slower burning powders used for the heaviest jacketed bullets in a given cartridge will give best results for lighter weight soft bullets, for example; Suppose IMR 4831 is listed as the slowest suitable powder for a 200 gr. bullet in the 308, but either not listed for 160 gr jacketed or listed as giving lower velocities than faster burning powders. The low pressures generated by such a slow burning powder will often give the highest possible velocity at the low pressure limits for soft bullets. If such a powder creates more velocity and pressure than a very soft alloy will withstand, carry the same angle a step farther and use the slowest powder for a larger cartridge, with powder loaded to the bullets base as a starting load."

So since I was using a fatten Lee329-205-1R with my standard alloy mix at that time (bhn 10-11) the slower powders showed more promise then any fast powder loads ( like Allient 2400 which seems to be considered a standard for Mil rifles) I got a lot of work to do now feeding both my two mausers. Right now I'm haveing fun with the new Turk because it shot great right out of the shipping box. This should be a good thread to follow.
Jim

[Pb2au]

Excellent info Jim.
I believe for the next round of testing, I am going to stick with just the Lyman 323470. I have been playing with the Lee 324 175 as well, but in an effort to reduce the variables, I will use just one projectile design and wring it out.
One thing I have not considered is if 4064 is position sensitive. I'm thinking that in this situation, it should not be an issue as the bulky 4064 should occupy a decent amount of the case, but it could still shift. I am considering the use of a tuft of dacron fluff as insurance.

[marshall623]

Pb2au Ok found the thread I'm here.

When I was working on my worn JP Sauer Mauser this past winter My good friend Larry Miller sent me this quote from Veral Smith's book titled "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets"
quote from Veral's book. " soft bullets will require slower powders than harder bullets. Often the slower burning powders used for the heaviest jacketed bullets in a given cartridge will give best results for lighter weight soft bullets, for example; Suppose IMR 4831 is listed as the slowest suitable powder for a 200 gr. bullet in the 308, but either not listed for 160 gr jacketed or listed as giving lower velocities than faster burning powders. The low pressures generated by such a slow burning powder will often give the highest possible velocity at the low pressure limits for soft bullets. If such a powder creates more velocity and pressure than a very soft alloy will withstand, carry the same angle a step farther and use the slowest powder for a larger cartridge, with powder loaded to the bullets base as a starting load."

So since I was using a fatten Lee329-205-1R with my standard alloy mix at that time (bhn 10-11) the slower powders showed more promise then any fast powder loads ( like Allient 2400 which seems to be considered a standard for Mil rifles) I got a lot of work to do now feeding both my two mausers. Right now I'm haveing fun with the new Turk because it shot great right out of the shipping box. This should be a good thread to follow.
Jim

This has got my attention! I has a Savage Striker pistol in 7-08 has a 1:11.5 twist . I've tried Lee 130 RN's out of air cooled COWW's after 4 shots groups are out the window . Clean it go to WCWW's and we are in business this is with SR 4759. I would like to shoot the softer boolits for hunting , so since I have 4064 the Striker may get to shoot a more suitable BHN for Hunting .

[DR Owl Creek]

... this quote from Veral Smith's book titled "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets"
quote from Veral's book. " soft bullets will require slower powders than harder bullets. Often the slower burning powders used for the heaviest jacketed bullets in a given cartridge will give best results for lighter weight soft bullets, for example; Suppose IMR 4831 is listed as the slowest suitable powder for a 200 gr. bullet in the 308, but either not listed for 160 gr jacketed or listed as giving lower velocities than faster burning powders. The low pressures generated by such a slow burning powder will often give the highest possible velocity at the low pressure limits for soft bullets. If such a powder creates more velocity and pressure than a very soft alloy will withstand, carry the same angle a step farther and use the slowest powder for a larger cartridge, with powder loaded to the bullets base as a starting load."

...
Jim

Thanks for the reminder about Veral's book. I've been meaning to order that for a LONG time, but just never gotten a "round toit". I'll do that today.

Dave

[UBER7MM]

Lead to Gold et all,
.
I've been using 4064 and 4895 over the years in reduced case loads. I haven't seen any noticeable difference between them. Now might be a good time for a close examination. I'm looking forward to your posted results.
.
Thanks in advance,

[marshall623]

I have a ? , since these are normally jacketed bullet powders listed in manuals , where would one start ? I'm thinking 3gr. below starting for jacketed data for 7-08 and 130 lees over IMR 4064 .

[Pb2au]

The short answer is around 60% "normal" load for jacketed. Or at least, that is our story so far.
So in your case, (no pun intended) the Lee Modern Reloading Manual 2nd edition calles out for 39 grains of 4064 with a 130 grain jacketed bullet.
So 39 x 60% equals 23.4 grains for a starting point. The book calls out 41.7 is the max load, FYI.
As usual, use this data at your own peril, etc etc etc.

I should be at loading bench this evening, and with any luck at the range tomorrow.

[marshall623]

Thanks I ll try a few maybe tomorrow . If so I ll post the results.

[wgr]

I ran out of 3031 that i was loading my 45-70 with 400grain cast gas check boolit. went to 4064 with the same boolit. the groups are not as good 46 grains is doing 2in at 100yards but the 3031 was about 11/2 so not much diff. for a hunting load.i did feel more recoil with the 4064.

[Bullshop Junior]

I am playing with 4064 in a 7.62x39. Will see how it does

[Bullshop Junior]

I have a ? , since these are normally jacketed bullet powders listed in manuals , where would one start ? I'm thinking 3gr. below starting for jacketed data for 7-08 and 130 lees over IMR 4064 .

Cast bullets produce lower pressure then jacketed. With 4064 in my 32 WS I start with the same starting load as jacketed per bullet weight.

[Yodogsandman]

I'm doing load development for my 35 whelem using a 301gr NEI 358 282 GC and IMR4064. Great start, a 1.3" and .96" 5 shot groups at 50 yards with a cloudy scope using 41.5gr. Followed by 1.1" and .87" 5 shot groups at 50 yards @ 42gr IMR4064, same scope. Groups have opened up more and more as I add more powder. I'm using air cooled COWW with 2% tin, sized to .358 and lubed with orange magic and LLA. Thought I might need to heat treat the bullets. At 49gr IMR4064, 2 shots and the vertical stadia wire broke on the scope and I found the front mount was loose, too. Gotta start over with a new scope. I've mounted a temp scope and will try again to finish shooting what I have loaded.

[JWFilips]

Excellent info Jim.
I believe for the next round of testing, I am going to stick with just the Lyman 323470. I have been playing with the Lee 324 175 as well, but in an effort to reduce the variables, I will use just one projectile design and wring it out.
One thing I have not considered is if 4064 is position sensitive. I'm thinking that in this situation, it should not be an issue as the bulky 4064 should occupy a decent amount of the case, but it could still shift. I am considering the use of a tuft of dacron fluff as insurance.

In my testing so far I'm using a .7gr tuft of Dacron fill fluffed into the top of the case. I do this for most of my loads with the 8mm when using reloader 7 , H4895 and IMR 4064. (Based on Larry Gibson's findings). I will be sticking with that for my testing. I only did some preliminary tests with my Turk Mauser ( since I'm in a transitional stage of revamping the sights......just put on a Redfield receiver sight and now I'm toying with the front sight / will be switching it out) So because too many changes are going on at once I'm waiting on the heavy testing. I will test the Lee 324-175-1R boolit with IMR 4064. Since I just got that mould I cast up a bunch this weekend using my Mauser mix of 2/3's 50 COWW / 50 Pure + 1/3 Linotype (Air cooled) I need them to sit up a couple of weeks to stabilize
Jim

[Pb2au]

JW,
Mr. Gibson is wealth of knowledge. We are lucky he and others with great experience blazed many paths for us.
Like you, it was from his findings that got me percolating in the dacron direction. I believe I will do so as well.

[UBER7MM]

...I will test the Lee 324-175-1R boolit with IMR 4064. Since I just got that mould I cast up a bunch this weekend using my Mauser mix of 2/3's 50 COWW / 50 Pure + 1/3 Linotype (Air cooled) I need them to sit up a couple of weeks to stabilize...
.
JW,
.
You could water quench your test boolits to speed up the time to testing... I water quench for handling sake more than any other reason.
.
Just a thought...if it helps,

[JWFilips]

.
JW,
.
You could water quench your test boolits to speed up the time to testing... I water quench for handling sake more than any other reason.
.
Just a thought...if it helps,

Yes I was going to consider that however for consistancy I wanted to match my other rifle boolits so I didn't want to toss in another variable into the tests.

[62chevy]

I will be waiting the results of this test. :popcorn:

[Pb2au]

Last weekend got too hectic to get anything productive done for this project. Tomorrow I will cast a batch of the lymans. They will be water dropped, straight WW alloy.
Hopefully tonight I will have time to scoop up some dacron.

[Wayne Smith]

Just for grins and giggles, different powder and cartridge but same principle. I am using very slow 20mm powder (I don't post the number because I am at work and transpose so I will get it wrong!) with a 4gr kicker of 3031 in my 8x56R Steyr with a full case of powder, which you have to do with a kicker. I was surprised when I measured the speed of that combination - 2300fps. The boolit is the Oldfeller Frankenstein and no leading with WDWW's.

[trapper9260]

I have posted about that same thing that is ask here.I did it for m DPMS LR308 with lyman 173 gr cast boolit and I have did a test that I first check for the gun to cycle by reduce the loads till it will not cycle I started with the data from jacket load of lower then the cast boolit is.I try h4895,IMR4895,IMR4064 and the better of the 3 was IMR4064 and group the best.What I also done is to stop fliers is to weight the boolit with the GC and lube to gone with +-.5 to round number of weight like the weight is 182.3 then I go with 182 +-.5 and so on and then I do all the wights like that and then I stop have fliers.My groups is 1 1/2" .I still working the loads for lighter bollits.Also for all the powders I see that have been in the stores is IMR4064 I have not seen any store with out it yet also.

[Pb2au]

Glad to see this thread still has some life in it.
To all, I have not abandoned it! This whole adult/work/responsibility thing can really get in the way of important work here....
Anyway,
I ran into an issue with the mounting of the scope on my mauser, so I am currently working that out. When a decent group turned into shotgun pattern, I realized something was afoul. I should have that sorted soon.
I also got in a load of 311274 boolits from Bullshop, so I will start testing in parallel some 30-40 loads with that and 4064.
As I will be on holiday for the next two weeks, progress should be happening.

[Glassman66]

I am going to be here with you as well. I have a Savage 30-06 and just got my first loader for it. I was going to just load j-words, but maybe I should jump right on in with cast boolits.

I have a bunch of WW's but have never casted before. Maybe I can pick up some from Missouri Bullet Company, I live about 20 miles from them and alway support Mo. companies when I can.




Randy

[UBER7MM]

.... Maybe I can pick up some from Missouri Bullet Company, I live about 20 miles from them and alway support Mo. companies when I can. Randy

Or any manufacturer in the USA these days....

[aspangler]

I have posted about that same thing that is ask here.I did it for m DPMS LR308 with lyman 173 gr cast boolit and I have did a test that I first check for the gun to cycle by reduce the loads till it will not cycle I started with the data from jacket load of lower then the cast boolit is.I try h4895,IMR4895,IMR4064 and the better of the 3 was IMR4064 and group the best.What I also done is to stop fliers is to weight the boolit with the GC and lube to gone with +-.5 to round number of weight like the weight is 182.3 then I go with 182 +-.5 and so on and then I do all the wights like that and then I stop have fliers.My groups is 1 1/2" .I still working the loads for lighter bollits.Also for all the powders I see that have been in the stores is IMR4064 I have not seen any store with out it yet also.
HUH?:confused::confused: