Bullet testing on water jugs

[sixshot]

I'm sure most of you know what a hard test medium water is when using handgun bullets. The good thing is, its repeatable & does give a comparison against other bullet designs. Today I did some testing with 2 different hollow point cast slugs, I wanted to see how well they would hold up & also if they would drive straight through.
The first bullet was the very popular cast HP designed for the 327 Maggie. Those of you fortunate enough to have one know what a great caliber it really is. The bullet is the 135 gr. Ferminator GC, which is the bullet designed by good friend & handgunner supreme, Fermin Garza. Fermin knew what he was doing when he put this design together, many years of shooting everything from the 22 rimfires up through the 500's led him to put this long & lean, wicked & mean bullet on the drawing board, its great!
While my load doesn't equal some others here it does a very good job for me & really gets after the water jugs. My first test last week was 2 jugs but it wasn't enough, that little monster blasted both jugs off the table so fast I didn't even get to see them go off. today I used 3 jugs, again the 135 gr. slug blasted through all 3, leaving a hole dead center through the front & out the back of the 3rd jug, very impressive for a cast hollow point. My load is 12.4 grs of H110, standard winchester primer & the 135 Ferminator, the bullet is going to raise holy %*@#% on ground squirrels & rock chucks this summer, trust me!
The second load tested today featured the 385 gr. cast HP in 475 caliber, loaded in my custom Harton 480 Bisley. My load of 21 grs. of 4227 is easy on the back end & a meat stoming, hair raising, bone breaking hunk of terror out the front end. This bullet has accounted for Moose, Bison & feral hogs. What this load did to 4 water jugs was a total suprise, I was not ready for the destruction this bullet did. And after the 4 jugs were blasted it buried into the berm at the back of the handgun range, I was totally shocked at the damage it did to over 20" of water.
Below is the video of the big 385 gr. HP taking on 4 water jugs, impressive to say the least.
What you are about to see is usually only done with premium bullets in rifles & few of them will penetrate 4 water jugs. This load in my gun is between 1050 & 1100 fps, you can go quite a bit hotter & obviously slower but why punish yourself or the gun when you can get this kind of performance. You have to click on photo to see video.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/6shot_01142/th_100_3661_zpse39a440b.jpg (http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/6shot_01142/100_3661_zpse39a440b.mp4)

[a.squibload]

Video didn't work on my Linux computer, did work on my phone.
All 4 jugs evaporated real fast!

[freebullet]

Here ya go-

105529

[CastingFool]

That's pretty cool. I have been thinking about doing the same thing with my 45LC.

[largom]

I picked up a couple of old suit cases at an auction. Filled these with old clothes, rags and anything cloth. I put one of these behind my water jugs to catch my boolit. No digging in berms and easy to trace boolit hole from side. Put a piece of duct tape over hole for next shot.

Larry

[USAFrox]

Are my eyes deceiving me, or do you fill your hollow point with something? I could swear I saw some sunlight glinting off of something inside the hollowpoint of that bullet you showed in the video. Do you use hot glue or something? Or is that just my eyes playing tricks on me?

[NVScouter]

The only good thing shooting water jugs is for: Free long range targets that you can see explode.

The expansions and penitration are completely false compared to flesh, hide, and bone.

[dilly]

They are a lot of fun, nonetheless.

[sixshot]

Scouter, slip on over to the singleactions forum & take a look at the one recovered from a large feral hog after it pulverized both front shoulders. We've also taken bull moose & bull bison with that same bullet with complete penetration. Nothing takes the place of big game for bullet testing.

Dick

[NVScouter]

Scouter, slip on over to the singleactions forum & take a look at the one recovered from a large feral hog after it pulverized both front shoulders. We've also taken bull moose & bull bison with that same bullet with complete penetration. Nothing takes the place of big game for bullet testing.

Dick

Both boolits are impressive to say the least. That .327 put images of a mini sharps in my head.

So many people shoot these jugs for some results they think will match hunting conditions. In water jugs boolits always expand, fly pretty straight since the jug wall explodes decreasing pressure, and look pretty cool. No hide to stretch, bones to deflect/shear noses, hair or fat to plug hollow points. I've done boolit ballistic tests for decades and I've yet to find one way to do it all. Even in animals it takes a bunch of kills to really KNOW what is good for what. It sounds like you have a couple proven combos though and best yet...designed for hunting!

Any hollowpoint for hunting or defense should have enough mass that if the entire front shears off the base can still be effective. Pretty .38 deep HP designs looks great at full mushroom and .70" from a water jug. Always remember Murphey is over your shoulder. A good flat nose always does what it does since it has less happening to fail. But a .475 385g at 1100fps losing 50% mass still has over 190g of lead getting the job done!

[bmortell]

+1 on catching the bullet after jugs with old clothing. youd be suprised how many hollowpoints ive caught with one t shirt layer after balistic gel block pass through

[sixshot]

Years ago Bob Hagel had a pretty impressive box system made up for testing bullet performance. It was soft wet dirt mixed with sawdust & placed in sections between 1" pine boards & had some cow hide covering the ends. It gave him some pretty good ideas on what certain bullets would do compared to other bullets. Some of the so called premium bullets didn't do any better than the local Hornady or Speer slugs.
You have to start somewhere, not everyone can shoot hundreds of game animals or, like Elmer Keith go to the slaughter house & shoot steers & recover the bullets. Nothing but nothing trumps shooting big game & I've used cast slugs in sixguns in most all the western states plus Alaska & Africa & have a pretty good idea of what works & what doesn't. Most everything I've ever taken has been with solids in my sixguns including 11 elk, but, this hollowpoints are very interesting, I started out trying them in the 60's, got totally away from them until the Cramer type moulds starting showing up & I'm having a grand time testing. If the next test only penetrates 3 water jugs & stops in the 4th maybe, just maybe I've made a comparison that is useable.
This 385 gr HP in the 480/475 is an absolute beast on game, trust me!

Dick

[Hickok]

The standard velocity .45 Colt load of 250-255gr rnfp cast boolit @ 850-900fps will completely penetrate four water filled @ 15 yards from Ruger New Vaquero.

Really amazing power from the black powder duplicate load in this old war horse. Works on white-tail deer also!

[mannyCA]

I've used 1 gallon water jugs before witb one caveat, I stuffed them full of newspapers and water and allowed them to soak overnight before testing. You'll catch your slugs and watch how beautifully they expand. I read somewhere that compressed wet newsprint was equivalent to tisse mass. Whether that holds true or not is anyones guess. But everything I've shot into them reacted almost the same as when I shot game/varmints with the same load.

[44man]

The only good thing shooting water jugs is for: Free long range targets that you can see explode.

The expansions and penitration are completely false compared to flesh, hide, and bone.
Exactly correct. Yet if you blow at least four sky high, the boolit will transmit energy inside an animal. I don't mean bouncing them off the board. They must explode. Then the boolit must penetrate all jugs in a straight line. Split jugs are not enough.
No testing with anything can duplicate what a boolit does in an animal in any case. The truth is always a double lung hit and a necropsy, not a CNS hit. A .22 will kill instantly with a spine or brain hit. A boolit/bullet that comes apart on bone is a failure.
A .44 is good for two jugs and is enough for deer. A HP might be only one jug and shows sad results in animals.
106520 These jugs were put back on the board, water went a good 30' in the air and jugs were ripped apart. The .475 boolit went through 14 total. Blew 4 and split two more. The caliber does show extreme results in deer.
Maybe you can use jugs and count busted jugs.
The .480 is very close to the .475 and that will show great transfer. The video shows the .480 will work, even on very large animals. But is the HP needed? Will it bust apart? I used a hard WFN, no HP and would not shoot a deer with a HP from the .480. I prefer to grind my own burger!

[sixshot]

44man, you're correct, a HP is not needed on something as big as a 475 slug, placement is everything, as always. Water jugs are not flesh & the results are not the same. On a game animal it might be turned, it might be down hill, it might be full of corn, etc. Shooting big game is always a chess match, thats why you use more than you need, that takes care of surprises. We are getting full penetration of 4 jugs with good effect with a 275 gr HP in the Bisley 45, nothing like the 480 video but impressive to say the least. Did it again yesterday during more testing & its holding up very well at 10 BHN hardness at about 1100 fps.

Dick

Dick

[44man]

It is hard to see deer angles and I have been surprised at where exit holes are. But I get straight line penetration.
My friend Pete shot a few deer with LBT 320 gr boolits from his .44 and did not find exit holes. Shot deer sideways but hit bone, wiped the noses a little and the boolits turned through guts to be found in the hams. He never gut shot but that is what happened. I do not trust a soft HP. The LBT's are a little softer then what I use and nose disruption was a factor. I never had that happen myself. Boolits can turn 90* right quick.
Water will give even expansion but that is not in an animal.

[sixshot]

I think some times people can over think something. This was a test on WATER jugs, nothing else! No one is saying you get the same results on game because you don't. Its something that is repeatable & gives you some idea of how a bullet holds up or not. It does not tell you that it will bore straight through a bull Rhino at 300 yds with a 22 Hornet.
Just about any decent handgun bullet will work on deer, now elk, thats a different story. I've taken 13 with handguns, 11 of them were with revolvers, I have a pretty good idea of what works & what doesn't on game. The water jugs are just a test, I repeat, a test!

Dick

[nanuk]

... Boolits can turn 90* right quick.
...


Agreed

I learned that lesson one day, and was totally amazed.

I shot a 3.5yo bull moose (estimated 1100lbs) at the base of the neck, almost broadside, slight quartering to, 50 yds

bullet was a 230gr Winchester Failsafe 338WinMag, which are known for excellent penetration....

well, bullet hit the spin, turned (83?) degrees and drove through the lungs into the paunch. We never did find the bullet.

but to think THAT bullet, at 50 yards would NOT penetrate through a Moose's neckbone and out the other side??? that NEVER would have entered my head until that day

[TCLouis]

If I have time/jugs on hand, EVERYTHING I plan to hunt with goes through at least one 1 gallon jug.

I only care about relative impact reaction from the bullet/boolit.

and

lots of time I put a piece of cardboard a couple of feet behind the jug to get a bullet/boolit profile.

I want to find a video camera that I can film the impact and then slow dow the resulting spray to get an idea of what it really looks like.

NO absolute data expected, just relatie to each other.

THEN MAYBE compare to game results.

[44man]

Shooting jugs is just fun. My .500 JRH will explode a jug at 100 yards like a grenade but fails on deer because it just punches a hole. I can't get it through my head why the .475 does twice the internal damage with the same hits. Both are 1350 fps and the JRH is only 20 gr heavier, same nose profile of a WFN.
The JRH only came in with a full body length hit. It would be good on a large animal too.
You just don't know how confusing it is to me. The deer I hit facing me was so blown up inside I don't want to do it again, stinking mess. Liver, stomach, etc, C4 in a boolit but double lung hits suck.

[Whit Spurzon]

In my experience, milk jugs are a pretty good test of penetration. In our tests a 250 grain 38-55 jogging along at 1300 fps will go through about 7-8' of water. Put 30" of bovine in front of the jugs and it we catch the bullet in the fifth jug. The formula works out to the water being about half as resistant as critter and ballistic gelatin in our tests. i.e. A bullet that goes through 48" of water does about 24" in the critter or gel.

Here's a little video of one of the tests (45-70)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b_h7ViNeJQ

We also tested 32-20 which was very impressive, 30" of cow and 36" of milk jugs. Upon processing ol' T-Bone Fieldloafer there were some impressive wound channels inside the chest cavity organs but he was a chubby and well marbled fellow. The entrance and exit holes were pretty close to caliber size.

All three tests hit ribs going in or going out or both. I don't remember which.

Your mileage may vary...

[leadman]

Years ago I had a Berreta 25 acp pistol. I bought some of the CCI Blazer ammo and had problems when the primers blowing out of the cases when I fired the gun. Called CCI and they had me send in the ammo. It was boxer primed and the flash hole was too large. This caused the primer to blow out in the Beretta as it did not have an ejector and relied on gas pressure to blow the case out of the chamber.
CCI sent me some prototype jhp ammo, which eventually became the Gold Dot. This bullet would end up in the third gallon water jug almost twice the diameter.
Water jug shooting is fun and interesting. If it provides any clue what the projectile will do in flesh or not I can't be sure. I appreciate the OP posting this just out of the fun of it.

[doc1876]

I use water jugs because, yesterday, I had two grand kids and a niece out on the range, and we shot the jugs as a sort of "this is what happens if someone gets shot with a gun" deal. Hopping that the kids get the idea that people can and do get hurt if firearms are used wrongly, as they are not toys. I do realize that I have a lot more teaching to do for 5 and 6 year olds, but you just gotta start some where. (kind of "looks neat too")

[NVScouter]

I use water jugs because, yesterday, I had two grand kids and a niece out on the range, and we shot the jugs as a sort of "this is what happens if someone gets shot with a gun" deal. Hopping that the kids get the idea that people can and do get hurt if firearms are used wrongly, as they are not toys. I do realize that I have a lot more teaching to do for 5 and 6 year olds, but you just gotta start some where. (kind of "looks neat too")

John Wayne did a Hunters safety video shooting stuff like cabbage and water mellons slow motion. I still remember it.

[C. Latch]

I built a wooden trough last week to hold a plastic liner to fill with water.

It was 4' long and worked great with .45 acp loads. Then I shot a .45 colt 270 grain HP into it at 1200' it a little more. The hydraulic pressure, even with an open top, blew the box apart.

Fun while it lasted. Will use 2x8s next time. 1" boards won't cut it.

[waksupi]

I built a wooden trough last week to hold a plastic liner to fill with water.

It was 4' long and worked great with .45 acp loads. Then I shot a .45 colt 270 grain HP into it at 1200' it a little more. The hydraulic pressure, even with an open top, blew the box apart.

Fun while it lasted. Will use 2x8s next time. 1" boards won't cut it.

I bet 2X8's won't beat physics.

[NVScouter]

I bet 2X8's won't beat physics.

Hey why not try wet rice in the trough......never been done before! :kidding:

Watch how a controled explosion channels water to disarm IEDs. Cuts car frames like butter.

[C. Latch]

I bet 2X8's won't beat physics.

What I really need is some steel mesh shaped into a long box with a hole in one end. Hang a roll of wide plastic on the far end, stretch it over the frame, fill with water, shoot, then roll the plastic past the used part and repeat.

[NVScouter]

What I really need is some steel mesh shaped into a long box with a hole in one end. Hang a roll of wide plastic on the far end, stretch it over the frame, fill with water, shoot, then roll the plastic past the used part and repeat.

You need a material like conveyor belting. Plys of rubber and fiber. Any weak area will blow out instantly, an expansion chamber would work as well. The air would compress when the water doesnt. So it has to be made to explode in chambers and reset after the shot.


OR use a bigger water trap like a swimming pool.

[44man]

Anything with water is very tough on a bullet because it does not compress.
What guys forget is the lungs on deer or animals contain a lot of air. What you see with a water jug is NOT what happens inside an animal.
Falling from a great height into water is like falling on concrete but you can fall on an air cushion.

[C. Latch]

You need a material like conveyor belting. Plys of rubber and fiber. Any weak area will blow out instantly, an expansion chamber would work as well. The air would compress when the water doesnt. So it has to be made to explode in chambers and reset after the shot.


OR use a bigger water trap like a swimming pool.

No need for an expansion chamber; the entire top of my box was open. Had the bottom been even mild steel I don't think it would have went anywhere.

[sixshot]

This has always been a test on WATER JUGS, not flesh, everytime it comes up someone tries to say its not the same as a deer! I've tried several times to keep it on topic & everytime someone tries to change it back over to deer! Do you have to penetrate 15 water jugs to have a bullet that will go through the air in a deer's lungs! Guess I'll have to change the subject....do you really need a scope to kill a little old Ohio whitetail?? Tell me about moose, elk, bear, antelope, Alaskan game, African game, something I can relate to!!!

Dick

[Ktmrider]

Ok since I'm still very new to this casting stuff, even though everyone here has given great advice I have a question. I just finished shooting some jugs tonight 2 of them were 2.5 gallon and the others were some heavy 5 gallon pails. What I found with a 50/50/2% mix is the HP mold I have from NOE which make great bullets right at 200g opens up real well. The FN version of that bullet just sheds weight and is just a tiny bit above caliber size the HP was at 1700 out of a Max and the FN was at 2000 out of a 356 Win. Then I shot a 444marlin with the 300 Lee FN at 2000fps and had the same result as the FN out of the 356 with the bullet sheading off some weight and a bit above caliber size. All bullets were shot at about 25yrds and all lost approx 100g of weight. Was my jugs made of to heavy of plastic? Why didn't the FN versions flatten out like the HP version? I am hoping some one can shed a bit of light on this subject for me. Oh one more thing nothing went through 2) 5 gallon jugs even though it picked them up and through them a little bit.

[44man]

Deer are usually mentioned because most failures will be with them. A boolit that does little internal damage to a deer can be the perfect one for elk, moose, etc. A fast expanding boolit will be wrong for the larger animals. Even too fast expansion can be wrong for deer too as penetration will suffer unless you have boolit weight.
It really is not the velocity you shoot either, it is still what the boolit does as it slows in an animal, seems the longer it takes a boolit to penetrate, the more damage is done.
Full penetration is good and something I will not give up.
It is why my .500 suffers on side to side lung shots but destroys a deer end to end. I think it is too heavy for a lung shot, doesn't know a deer was in the way.
It is OK to have a 1/2" hole in and out as long as the boolit did it's work inside.
I will never believe in the old saw that energy is wasted with penetration, just doesn't work that way.
I lost count of revolver kills but something is learned from every one. Been shooting deer with revolvers over 21 years and average 7 a year but need to subtract one from archery so that means 126 to 130 deer shot with revolvers, maybe more.
If I shot nothing but elk, moose, etc, my assessment of boolits would change.
Field experience is the answer and I can't equate penetration tests to hunting at all.
The other old saw is a .45 is as large as an expanded .30 is also wrong. You guys need to stop believing in some things. Seen the .45 do less inside then a FMJ .30. Seen the wrong alloy with the .45 ruin an animal, head to butt.
I look at my .500 JRH like this, put two deer side by side, shoot through the first and the second deer will have more damage then the first, along with full penetration.
Nothing can be determined from an armchair, keyboard or a few kills. You just have to open a lot of animals.
You can not depend on water. One day I shot a 5 gallon metal can of water with the 110 gr bullet from a 30-06, 50 yards and had a hunk of the can whistle over my head like a plane breaking the sound barrier. But nobody would use that bullet for hunting deer.
I would not use a soft, big HP from the .44 either.

[NVScouter]

You did post this in the HUNTING forum to be fair. So why wouldnt we use this as the point?


This has always been a test on WATER JUGS, not flesh, everytime it comes up someone tries to say its not the same as a deer! I've tried several times to keep it on topic & everytime someone tries to change it back over to deer! Do you have to penetrate 15 water jugs to have a bullet that will go through the air in a deer's lungs! Guess I'll have to change the subject....do you really need a scope to kill a little old Ohio whitetail?? Tell me about moose, elk, bear, antelope, Alaskan game, African game, something I can relate to!!!

Dick

[44man]

You did post this in the HUNTING forum to be fair. So why wouldnt we use this as the point?
It WAS the point, to equate water to flesh and the thought after seeing a jug blow up is WOW, what would that do to an animal?
I was there and thought the same even when we could not use a rifle or pistol for deer, just a shotgun or ML.
Yes, I really did think that way at one time. It happens to everyone. If you did not have that thought, you are trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
I can forgive it because I did not know better long ago either. Soon a balance will be found and things get better.
Not to detract from shooting jugs or a watermelon because we all love to do that. Some just want to catch a bullet but maybe you need a huge rack of jugs with a boolit.
What happened to the boolit is still tried to match it to game, admit it!

[sixshot]

I have to admit I love arguing with both you guys! Both of you need to buy an either sex water jug tag & do some testing, then when you find the perfect water jug bullet try it on deer, itty bitty Buckeye whitetails. I have a great deal of successful experience with revolvers & cast bullets on game much larger than deer & there is no relationship between what a bullet does on BIG game & what it does on water, we've covered this ground before. One last time, it was a test to see what the 4th bottle does or doesn't do, & if the bullet exits. It DOES tell you a great deal of what a bullet will hold up to. I'm guessing both of you have never heard of David Brawshaw so I won't bore either of you by telling you to go over to the Singleactions Forum & read his reply in the Gallery on water jug testing.
I didn't see a water jug section or I would have listed it there, also there's more viewers on the Hunting with CB's section & hunting with cast is my main objective.
Again, tell me what you need a scope for on those Ohio whitetails, you're whacking them from a blind of some sort MOST times & they are right in your lap....or yard! You guys need to show some photo's of your kills, something bigger than deer, come on now, you can do it!

Dick

[jmort]

Shooting water is fun but extrapolating results to real world is difficult/useless. Water is real hard on bullets/Boolits and will open up a bullet that may not expand at all in the field. For non-expanding bullets it is a good predictor of penetration. I don't care what I am shooting, I want two holes, one in and one out.

[C. Latch]

Once again I stand amazed at which threads bring out the anger in some folks.

[sixshot]

Latch, I don't see any anger here, some good natured ribbing is going on but I haven't seen anyone throw a fit. One of them did just admit that they were making comparisons & thats fine. There isn't anywhere in my posts that I have tried to compare shooting a mature 4 year old water jug to a deer! One tells me I don't need a HP for deer & he's shooting them with a scoped 500 magnum, wowee, and he does mention he's shot water jugs before, amazing! I have never, ever recovered a cast bullet from any animal, I want 2 holes, even in water!

Dick

[NVScouter]

I have to admit I love arguing with both you guys! Thanks!Both of you need to buy an either sex water jug tag & do some testing, (Sex and Jugs in same sentence....whats on your mind?)then when you find the perfect water jug bullet try it on deer, itty bitty Buckeye whitetails. I have a great deal of successful experience with revolvers & cast bullets on game much larger than deer & there is no relationship between what a bullet does on BIG game & what it does on water, we've covered this ground before. One last time, it was a test to see what the 4th bottle does or doesn't do, & if the bullet exits. It DOES tell you a great deal of what a bullet will hold up to. I'm guessing both of you have never heard of David Brawshaw so I won't bore (dont bore me, I'm fragile) either of you by telling you to go over to the Singleactions Forum & read his reply in the Gallery on water jug testing.
I didn't see a water jug section or I would have listed it there, also there's more viewers on the Hunting with CB's section & hunting with cast is my main objective (we get cabin fever here waiting for useless summer to end and hunting season to begin).
Again, tell me what you need a scope for on those Ohio whitetails, you're whacking them from a blind of some sort MOST times & they are right in your lap....or yard! You guys need to show some photo's of your kills, something bigger than deer, come on now, you can do it!

Dick

Lots of my hunt pics here, Southerner (to me anyhow)! Man, I need hunting season to start. I still have a week at least to find out if I drew bull and buck tags or not.

[44man]

I came from the IHMSA shoots using bullets mostly so I found the 240 XTP was the most accurate bullet ever made. I shot my first three deer with it and no bone larger then a rib was hit. I seen the deer fall at around 60 yards, kills good but I backtrack deer to where they were when hit and there was no blood to speak of on the ground. I recovered all three bullets at the rib cage. Perfect mushrooms. I got to thinking about a shoulder , leg bone or quartering shot, lost confidence in a bullet real fast. Went to cast, starting with the 320 LBT, then the Lee 310 and my own 330 gr.
Things turned around and deer hardly make 30 yards, blood trails look like gallons are poured from buckets.
jmortimer said it right but I see he lives in the commie state where buzzards eat lead. The state does not know that shooting an animal with cast does not leave lead inside, it goes through.
Sixshot, we do not argue at all. Coming from years and years of IHMSA, I met David Bradshaw once long ago, he can take out a gnats eye at 200 meters and knows much, also a great hunter. I respect him. But the single action site is sad. I got into it big time with Taffin, started when I spelled BOOLIT, coming from here. Then about how to load for the revolver got me in hot water with these guys. http://www.wedealinlead.net/forum/images/smilies/nutswinger1dy.gif
The owner of the site came here to shoot and I showed him I could hit 1" targets at 100 yards with my revolvers. I was booted but he asked me to come back but I will not go where Taffin is. Yes, I know Lee Martin. Real nice guy and a crazy recoil junky with rifles that HURT. Lee and his dad are super gunsmiths.
But the people there are not like us, they fight and cuss instead of helping. Most grab a tail and get dragged along through the dirt.
We need to talk scopes too, I hate them for hunting because I can't shoot them off hand, shake too much and try to get the gun to go off when cross hairs pass the bull. I can no longer see open sights in dim light so I went to the Ultra Dots. Almost every deer is from off hand, I have no rests. I am in the open. I might use a knee if I can but that is it. I am getting close to 77 years old.
I am from Ohio and you don't know Ohio deer, how about 18 points and going over 420# dressed? Some are so big they run like a cow. Had to move and got several doe here that went over 200# but as the herd increases, they do get smaller. Understand the smaller deer take different boolits then huge ones depending on the caliber. It is a surprise the bigger guns do not work as good.
Soon you learn by yourself, not from reading, don't even follow me.
Just want you to know, shooting water is not the real world, it is just fun.

[sixshot]

44man, great reply. I know all about those Ohio whitetails, my dad was born there, we lived in Columbus, Cincinnati, Lebanon, New Boston, Portsmouth & Sciotoville when I was a kid. Dad was a construction worker & always getting in fights, he would get fired & we moved a lot! Back then Ohio was shotgun only for deer & they had some whoppers but I'm still going to razz you & Nevada about getting off topic all the time. Go back & read my posts & find one place where I compared water to flesh. You guys did, not me. If you ever get out this way we'll save up some water jugs & see if that Red Dot can hit one offhand. Got somewhere between 50-60 Ground Squirrels yesterday with my 327 maggie & a 135 cast HP, those squirrels would almost turn to liquid, maybe like WATER!
John Taffin is a good friend & I respect him a lot, great writer & he knows where all the good Mexican resturants are in Boise.

Dick

[44man]

44man, great reply. I know all about those Ohio whitetails, my dad was born there, we lived in Columbus, Cincinnati, Lebanon, New Boston, Portsmouth & Sciotoville when I was a kid. Dad was a construction worker & always getting in fights, he would get fired & we moved a lot! Back then Ohio was shotgun only for deer & they had some whoppers but I'm still going to razz you & Nevada about getting off topic all the time. Go back & read my posts & find one place where I compared water to flesh. You guys did, not me. If you ever get out this way we'll save up some water jugs & see if that Red Dot can hit one offhand. Got somewhere between 50-60 Ground Squirrels yesterday with my 327 maggie & a 135 cast HP, those squirrels would almost turn to liquid, maybe like WATER!
John Taffin is a good friend & I respect him a lot, great writer & he knows where all the good Mexican resturants are in Boise.

Dick
Love an Ohio man, glad to know you. What about those Ohio deer? MONSTERS!
We get off topic a lot but it is common here. I find it a good thing. I feel we are sitting around a fire with a few beers, sharing tales. You are free to razz us. I will never complain.
Have you read my fooling deer post with the big foot experience in Ohio? That beast is there at Salt fork and east, down route 22, to Cadiz and beyond.

[sixshot]

Us Mormon boys aren't beer drinkers, if I had a few beers in me you would think I was Bigfoot!!

Dick

[NVScouter]

Us Mormon boys aren't beer drinkers, if I had a few beers in me you would think I was Bigfoot!!

Dick

I always think its funny when razzing folks online how a 4th or 10th party comes in and thinks the joking is serious. If we cant tease each other then were is the run in that?

Draw results for WY came out yesterday and I drew a big goose egg on everything. Guess I'll fill a bunch of cow and doe tags this year and see if one of my pistol shots lives up to your guys expectations..............:takinWiz:

[44man]

Once we learn each other, we become friends and any disagreement is water over the dam. Newer guys might be shocked but we do not ever call each other names.
I am sorry you did not draw. But if you can still hunt, forget horns. Get them cows!

[johnestmon]

I usually do 100yrds or longer since its what my usual hunting distances are!