Rebarreling a Swedish Mauser

[DeanWinchester]

I have this really bad habit of PM'ing guys like Goodsteel with ridiculous inane questions like this, wasting the man's time when he's trying to make a living:-P so I'll pose this publicly.
I have been trying to come up with something to build a 358 winchester on. I want one so bad I can taste it. I had a Savage 110 and was about to start and I just looked at it and went Bleeeh! Trying to be different can be a bad thing if you take it too far but hopefully you see where I'm going with this.

I have a Swedish mauser. It's already been hacked on, drilled and tapped and bubba did a horrible job turning down the bolt handle. SO, it wouldn't be crime to go a little further if there was redemption at the end.

My question, could a Swedish Mauser handle a .358 winchester and do a good job of it? I think pressures wouldn't be a problem but the bolt head may be a touch sloppy. When I get time I will try to cycle a 308 (Dummy round!) and see how it acts.

My stock working skill suck BIG TIME but I did manage to get a piece of bloodwood on there as a tip to hide the nasty chop job. This wood is so very blond it really needs to be sanded back down a stained but I've tried that before and it was disgusting what I did. I think someone like Ben could do magic with this little stock though. It's solid and no dents or cracks or gouges.

It almost seems a shame to pull the barrel on this, but I don't really care for the 6.5 anymore. It's not good friend to casting. Something the .358 does NOT share in.

Any and all thoughts are welcome.


http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/DSC02900_zpsb883116d.jpg

[FrankG]

It would cycle and feed fine . It would also handle loadings to around the 46,000 CUP range .

[DeanWinchester]

Hmmm, best my internet search can tell, the .358 runs as high as 52K. I'm betting that's for some warm jacketed loads though. Any cast loads would be well below that, I think.

[FrankG]

Cast would most likely run 38,000 or lower unless you were trying for barn burners.

[Larry Gibson]

Big difference between what the MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for a cartridge is and what they are actually loaded to (most often less). I have measured the psi in several different cartridges which are mostly chambered in SR Mausers. That includes commercial US and European ammunition and milsurp ammunition. The European MAP for the 6.5x55 Swede runs 3800 (bar) or 55,100 psi. The psi's measured in milsurp M36/M96 chambers with an Oehler M43 run upwards of 55,400 psi. Commercial Hornady and Norma are very close to the same. The SAAMI MAP for the 358 Win is 60,000 psi.

The old adage that the SR Mausers were "designed for jus 45,000 psi (CUP)" is not quite true, especially in the case of the Swedish M96 action. The action design as far as strength goes equals most "modern" bolt actions. So the question comes down to the steel used and the heat treatment of the action. Swedish steel was then and still is noted for it's quality. As to HT are we to assume that M96s produced during the same period as M98s were HT'd To some inferior degree compared to the M98? Especially by the Swedes? I think not. However, as that may be I do not recommend the 358 Win in the M96 action. The reason is not one of "will the action handle it" but one of feeding. The magazine length and tapered feed rails will most often cause feed problems with a shorter minimally tapered cartridge such as the 358W. This especially occurs when the magazine is loaded and fired. Usually the 2nd round from the magazine (left side) will jam with the bullet nose (especially with FN cast) against the edge of the chamber mouth. The rails and magazine length are made for the tapered Mauser case, not the minimal taper of the .308W family of cartridges. Unless you potentially want to have extensive rail mod done to the M96 action and magazine I suggest a cartridge with a taper more atoned to the M96.

I offer a much simpler solution which will give a much better 35 cal cartridge, especially for cast bullets. Get a 26" pre-threaded for SR Mauser short chambered .35 Rem Shilen barrel from Brownell's. Install it on the M96 action. Get a set of 35 Whelen dies and turn off .254" off the bottom of each die (FL & SD). Form cases from any of the '06 family to what essentially will be a 35x57 cartridge with the longer neck of the Whelen. Borrow or rent a standard 35 Whelen finish reamer and then form 3 cases with the altered FL die. Trim the necks to the length of the reamers neck. Finnish ream the barrel and use those 3 cases to headspace the bolt for your 35x57 cartridge. I like to just feel the bolt close on the case. A NS die can also be similarly shortened to just NS the fired cases for accuracy and longer case life.

Case capacity (to the shoulder/neck junction) will be very close to the 358W. That case with have the case taper for the M96 rails and will feed perfectly. It also will have a loaded oal perfect for the 3" magazine of the M96. The 16" twist of the Shilen barrel will be excellent for upwards of 250 gr bullets, especially cast bullets. Mid level loads for the .358W will keep you well with in the CIP MAP range for SR Mauser actions. It makes a superb cast bullet rifle BTW.

I'm sure goodsteel can do the work for you as we have discussed this a couple times. This is the basic idea of forming the 30x57 which he is chambering some rifles in.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Thanks Larry! I didn't think about the taper of the case.

As far as the wildcatting, I'm not smart enough to figure all that out. Probably be best to trade the rifle towards a more accommodating platform.

[MBTcustom]

Thanks Larry! I didn't think about the taper of the case.

As far as the wildcatting, I'm not smart enough to figure all that out. Probably be best to trade the rifle towards a more accommodating platform.

Dont be too hasty there Dean.

It's not that hard to do once the dies are modified, and I can do that for you as well.

Also, it's very possible that your Sweed will feed 308 just fine.
To find out, just make up some dummies, stuff 'em in your magazine, and see if they shuck or not. You won't be able to get them in the chamber, but you don't need to just to see if they will feed or not. If you can get it to jump the nose into the existing chamber, running it slow and running it fast, then it's going to work.
Also, if it doesn't work, don't throw in the towel just yet. Order a M48 Yugo follower from Numrich gun parts, stick it in there and see if it works. I can't tell you why, but sometimes that follower will work when nothing else will. In the order of priorities, the follower trumps the feedrails every time. I don't mess with the feedrails unless I absolutely have to. I still don't understand how a strip of metal (at the bottom of the magazine pushing up on a stack of cartridges) can make a difference in how all those cartridges feed, but it certainly can/does.

[Larry Gibson]

Dean, this is Larry you're talking to. You're smarter than that. We aren't talking rocket science and once the dies are shortened (goodsteel can do that to) the cases are easy to form (you can simply use 8x57 cases and not have to trim, just run them into the FL die) and then it's like loading any other cartridge. That M96 Swede is just begging to be a sweet shooting 35x57 and besides, you'd then be the first kid on your block to have one:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[FrankG]

I stand corrected Larry :)
I assumed (ya I know the adage) beins I barreled a 96 in 308 for CB's and it functions well it would for a 358 .
I like the sound of the long necked 358 you described !

[MBTcustom]

Dean, this is Larry you're talking to. You're smarter than that. We aren't talking rocket science and once the dies are shortened (goodsteel can do that to) the cases are easy to form (you can simply use 8x57 cases and not have to trim, just run them into the FL die) and then it's like loading any other cartridge. That M96 Swede is just begging to be a sweet shooting 35x57 and besides, you'd then be the first kid on your block to have one:drinks:

Larry Gibson

Hell, even if you are forming from 30-06 brass its not that big of a deal. I did a pile of them last Sunday, and like you say, once they are made, "its just like loading any other cartridge".

Also, like Frank experienced, sometimes they feed 308 based/length cartridges just fine. It's easy enough to find out without jacking up your rifle.

[roadie]

As far as strength goes, I would have no qualms at all using a Swede for this. I've done a couple or 3 on Swedes, one a .257 Roberts Ackley Improved....a 6.5 wildcat based on the Roberts case and a .250 Savage Ackley Improved. I had no feeding problems with any of them.

The issue with the pre 98's is, for the most part, not strength, rather it's the gas handling ability if things go wrong. I've yet to see a poorly manufactured Swede, seen lots of Spanish, never a Swede.

Following Larry Gibson's suggestions will get you a very sweet rifle.

[RustyReel]

Sell your 6.5 rifle. Go to Simpson's or someplace similar and buy a Husqvarna (ie 94/96 Swede) in 9.3x57. Instead of a .35x57 you have a commercial .366x57. Not a large selection of molds or J-words in the 9.3, but how many do you need??? Plus with the money you save you can buy a lot of reloading supplies.........just me, thinking out-loud.

[plainsman456]

I have one that is being made into a 300 sav.

The barrel came from a rem 700 rifle,turned the cone off and cut the old threads off and then put on the sr threads.
All i need to do is get the reamer and finish the chamber.

This action has been shot a bit as a 7mm mauser,so it should hold up well.
I need to get back on it.

[dh2]

I would not try to discourage you from building a 358 Winchester, but with of the pressure worry, I would find a 98 Mauser action, I would look at the .35 Whelen . I don't think it would be a good idea to build a gun that would be in trouble if some one down the road put a factory jacketed bullet round in it.
If you are going to put out the money and or time to build one do it so that you will have some thing nice

[Nobade]

OK, I'll chime in with essentially the same thing. 9X57 and 9.3X57 already exist, you can even buy properly headstamped brass for either if you want to, and the dies are available off the shelf from several die makers. Either of those cartridges runs at moderate pressure and no factory hotrod ammo is made. Both work great with boolits. Both will feed properly. If it were me, that's the direction I would lean toward.....

-Nobade

[pietro]

I don't think it would be a good idea to build a gun that would be in trouble if some one down the road put a factory jacketed bullet round in it.





+1 ! !

The next guy might have no clue - why it's not the best idea to set up a firearm that has the possibility of failure in the hands of an innocent.


.

[David2011]

A few years ago I had an interesting conversation with a gunsmith that had worked at Lyman. He said he was they guy pulling the lanyard on the load testing information. He also said that Lyman used M96 actions for their test barrel actions and that the 96 gave up nothing to the 98 in strength. Both actions bear the pressure on 2 lugs. The 98's third lug is a safety lug in case the first two fail and does not bear any load under normal circumstances.

David

[MBTcustom]

Exactly. The only SR Mauser I will not build on is a Spanish, but I won't build on a LR Spanish Mauser either! Spanish Mausers are not aloud in the shop, and neither are mosins.
However, I check each and every Mauser I work on regardless of origin.
Most of them were made of low carbon steel and all were case hardened. This creates strength in weak metal by giving a hard surface that is supported and cushioned by a soft substrate. This makes it relatively easy to test for strength because if the surface is not hard, then it's got nothing. It's just as if the action was not hardened at all and made of cold rolled.
So check the critical places for hardness! Don't worry with the top of the action, many of them were ground off after heat treating so there is no case surface left there, but reach inside the action with a good quality scribe and try to scratch the upper and lower recoil surfaces. This is the ramp, and the surface opposite to it (go through the bottom of the action to get to it.)
Check also the bolt lugs.
If the scribe slides on these surfaces like glass (as it should) and you see no hairline cracks or anything out of the ordinary like twisted metal from bubba's effort to remove the action with a steel rod through the raceways etc etc etc, then you are good to go.
However, you must use a good quality scribe, it must be sharp, and all these surfaces must pass. I've been really pleased so far though. Like I said, the only actions that have failed this test 100% reliably some how, some way, some where, have been the Spanish Mausers. Found a few duds from Mexico too, but it's hit or miss. Found a couple Yugos that were on the fence, but nothing I would call useless.
Anyway, hope this helps.

[DeanWinchester]

Okay, shift gears here a second. A close friend could be persuaded to trade me a 6,5mm Arisaka for the Swede. The Arisaka is pretty decent but the bore is a sewer pipe. Best I can tell the whole Arisaka case is smaller than the .358 but I don't have an actual drawing. I'm just going on case length. Could THIS be rebored to .358 I wonder? Wonder if there's enough meat in the barrel? The Arisaka is CERTAINLY strong enough to handle anything.
Would it have the same feed issues?
OAL length of the Arisaka is greater which is good, affording me plenty of boolit room.
The Arisaka would be pretty sweet sitting in a select grade Richards microfit stock and maybe some upgraded sights or a nice steel body weaver scope.

Just thinking out loud here and trying to work with what "I" can come up with. If money weren't the problem I'd just send Goodsteel a check and say call me when it's done, I'll drive down and pick it up. I can't scratch up the kind of dough it takes to get REAL quality like that so I'm trying to make do.

Thanks guys for listening and responding to my whimsical meanderings.

[MBTcustom]

Yes! That is totally doable! In fact, I've done it twice.
You are definitely going to have feeding issues, but so far the Yugo M48 follower has been the magic pill for the Arisaka's. Works like a charm.
JES charges about $250 to rebore a rifle (do yourself a favor and get his 3 groove rifling in 35 caliber. Just awesome.) you have enough barrel there for a light weight sporter, and after the bore is opened to 35, the chamber should clean up perfectly.

I love me some 358 action in an Arisaka! Light weight, strong, and the push-button safety is something I really like (many disagree with me on this) especially on the type 38 japs because they make them look all shnazzy and stuff with their sunburst cut pattern.

[RustyReel]

Personal opinion of course, but I think your friend got the better end of that deal!

[DeanWinchester]

Personal opinion of course, but I think your friend got the better end of that deal!

Well I ain't traded yet. Lol!
Better end of the deal is a point of view. While you may be correct 'on paper' the better end of the deal lies in satisfaction I think. I won't be satisfied until I have a decent little rifle in 358 Winchester.

[FrankG]

Have you checked local shops for a donor mauser 98 for the project ? Have you tried cycling 308 fodder through the 96 to see if it will feed ?

Me , personally wouldn't swap a Swede for a Arisaka .

[richhodg66]

Interestingly enough...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=417391772

[Uncle Grinch]

Make it easy on yourself and anyone later that may own the rifle and keep it in factory round. The 9x57 Mauser seems to me to be the easiest and best fit for your wants.

That's my 2 cents!

[RustyReel]

Interestingly enough...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=417391772

In my opinion (I know, here he goes again), that one is over priced....even the starting bid. Broken stock and major nasty importer marks. Keep looking and you can buy a rifle in better condition at a cheaper price.....but probably not on GB.

[gnoahhh]

Personally, I think you're better off using the Swede as a donor for your project than an Arisaka. The Arisaka may rate as a stronger action (depending when it was made), but that's not everything in the world of custom guns. The Swede simply has nicer lines IMO, and the workmanship outshines anything that ever came out of a Japanese arsenal. Were it me, I would investigate the feeding potential of the .358, and if that sucks then follow Larry's suggestion.

[StrawHat]

Or get your Swede rebored to 35 caliber and use the same case. A .35x55 or 9mmx55mm. Not much would need to be changed to handle that cartridge.

[MBTcustom]

Personally, I think you're better off using the Swede as a donor for your project than an Arisaka. The Arisaka may rate as a stronger action (depending when it was made), but that's not everything in the world of custom guns. The Swede simply has nicer lines IMO, and the workmanship outshines anything that ever came out of a Japanese arsenal. Were it me, I would investigate the feeding potential of the .358, and if that sucks then follow Larry's suggestion.

Its all in the eye of the beholder I guess:
106608
106609
106610
106611

[Nobade]

Or get your Swede rebored to 35 caliber and use the same case. A .35x55 or 9mmx55mm. Not much would need to be changed to handle that cartridge.

Except for expensive wildcat dies....

-Nobade