Can PP bullets help me?

[405 WCF]

I have an original Winchester 1895 in 405 WCF.
After a lot of testing and leading, I had a smith to check the barrel with a borescope.
He told me that the barrel had some rust in it.
Not much, but obviusly enough to break the seal, and let gas pass by.
So, my rifle is suffering poor accuracy and lot of leading.

Well, a new barrel is to expensive, so that is out of the question for the moment, but I refuse to give up, so, please tell me, can paperpatching help me?

[pdawg_shooter]

A paper patch bullet will not only end your leading problem but will also polish the inside of your barrel. I had a SMLE #4 Mk.2 with a lot of reamer marks in the barrel. After around 200 PP bullets the bore looks like a high dollar custom job. The ultimate fire lap job.

[405 WCF]

That answer made me very happy!:drinks:

Now to question no2:
The mold that I have for the 405 is RCBS .416 350 FN.
My barrel slug .413, and I have both a .414 and a .416 sizer.
Can I use that bullet, size it down more, patch the bullet, and run it trough the .416 sizer, or do I have to buy a new mold?

[yeahbub]

405 WCF, the answer to your mold question depends. Paper patching will add .009-.012, so it's a matter of how much sizing the boolit will take and still shoot well. For my Marllin Model 375, I start with a .378 dia cast, size it .375, wet patch with .0025 drafting vellum which brings it up to .384+, wrap with one layer of teflon thread tape, apply a tiny smear of lanolin and size in a .379 die (groove dia is .378). This weds the teflon to the paper and the paper to the lead and gives the boolit the appearance of having been painted with heavy white enamel. This is a huge amount of sizing, squeezing it down some .015-.016, but they hold 2" at 100 yds. The alloy I use is air cooled wheel weights for a hardness of 12-15 on the LBT tester. YMMV. I didn't really get good groups until I tried the teflon over the paper, with a card wad and grease cookie between powder and boolit.

The other thing I'm thinking is that if you have minor pits in the barrel, just shooting will tend to smooth the edges, but if you have rust crystals protruding up into the bore, they will have to be removed by some method. Metallic oxides are almost always harder than the parent metal, and certainly so with rust, presenting jagged little grabbers carving hunks out of the boolit as it goes by. I've pressure-lapped a number of barrels, some new, some salt-and-pepper, some pretty dismal, but in all with rust, the rust was seen to be removed and the edges of the pits were radiused over when examined with a boroscope. All of them cleaned more easily, most showed considerable improvement in accuracy with cast and the few in which PP boolits were used shot them well enough (efforts at load development were not exhaustive). My thinking is that with some judicious lapping, your barrel can be smoothed to where bare cast boolits will also be a viable option again.

[Digital Dan]

.405WCF, How you do? I have one of those chamberings from a place nearer to you than me, Belgium to be specific. Cape Gun made back in the 20s or maybe 30s? I don't know, fellow named J. Pire built it anyway. Had a similar issue but not so bad as you describe, mostly just a gray bore on the rifle side, the 12 bore bright and shiny. I took a slightly different path to polishing it out with patches and used the following approach. My bore runs .416" at the breech, .408 at the muzzle. Grooves were maybe .005" deeper. Anyway, I used a .411 bullet as cast, dry wrapped it with 9# onion skin of .0025" thickness...3 full wraps. A mild charge of SR4759 that generated about 1500 fps and 6 shots later I have a fairly bright bore with no discernible change in dimensions.

Under the FWIW Dept., unlubed paper patches will polish out a bore quickly and are good for that purpose. They need not be driven at terribly high velocity to accomplish the job either. I do not recommend the use of unlubed patch for general use for two reasons. 1) They will in time wear your bore. 2) I find them somewhat laborious to load as a small bit of lube makes them seat in the case easier. Under the heading of maybe it's a good idea or not, I have found patch techniques that promote the patch remaining on the bullet counterproductive to fine accuracy. I don't know that's the case for all guns or chamberings, probably not due to the many variables associated with older guns. In other words, it's something you have to determine with pragmatic tests. However, I've done a fair bit of paper patch loading and shooting with a fair variety of guns and find 1 MOA accuracy a standard that is achievable with fair regularity....with bullets so patched that the patch separates when the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Best of luck to you sir!

[Buckshot]

................Hey Olle! Still working on that 95 Levergun, eh? :-) You can generate just about any "Over the patch" finish diameter you want buy sizing down the slug, paper selection and sizing the patched boolit afterwords. One of the most common patching papers is 9lb airmail which usually has a 25% cotton content. You can get it smooth or cockle finish.

However the paper doesn't have to be anything special, with one exception. It must be able to be wetted and then stand a bit of streatching as it's rolled on. Also, I do not suggest using any recycled paper. I've patched boolits with tractor hole type computer printer paper, and a freind of mine patched up some slugs for his 577-450 Martini and used that slick 4 color newspaper advertising insert paper.

http://www.fototime.com/C9730B459E8C514/standard.jpg

This is some patching I did using the RCBS boolit designed for the .43 Spanish (.440") in the .444 Marlin (mine's a Martini). I wanted a pretty heavy slug as my .444 barrel has a 16" twist. The 410gr RCBS was the closest and heaviest I knew of at the time. Take the .440 slug and lube-size it to .439". Then run it up through a Lee .432" size die. Then wash the lube out in paint thinner, then hot water and detergent.

After that they got patched with the 9lb airmail paper, which when dry adds .007" to the OD. So now we're BACK to .439" [smilie=b: When dry the patches were sprayed with an aerosol spray of molybdenum disulfide, which is sold as a machine lube for heavily loaded gibbs and ways. In the photo at the front are 3 boolits. The naked one is............ er, naked! In the middle is a patched slug and on the left is after being passed through the .432" die, and ready to be loaded.

What I would do is to take your slug and size it down to .407", then using some .002" paper, paper patch it. When dry your patched slug should mike about .414". Or option #2 is to size teh cast slug to about .410", paper patch it and then size it to .414".

.................Buckshot

[405 WCF]

Thank you for the replay's!
Buckshot!
That was very interesting to read.
Now I have to order sizer no:3 from you!
So, now my question is: What option do you recomend, the .407, or the .410?

Maby my 405 will end up as a good castbullet shooter anyway.:drinks::-D

//Olle ( :castmine: )

[Buckshot]

Thank you for the replay's!
Buckshot!
That was very interesting to read.
Now I have to order sizer no:3 from you!
So, now my question is: What option do you recomend, the .407, or the .410?

Can't tell ya that. What kind of paper do you have?

Maby my 405 will end up as a good castbullet shooter anyway.:drinks::-D

//Olle ( :castmine: )

...............Buckshot

[405 WCF]

Have no paper at this moment, but I'll buy.
I have never tried paperpatching a bullet, so I am a real newbie.

What I like to know is:

The RCBS mold that I have, is with GC.
Since downsizing wont hurt the GC shank, I like to know if I can size down the bullet, patch it, and cut the patch at the GC shank, put on the GC, and then size it again?

How do I cut the paper?

Is it important how I put on the paper?

After I have patched and sized the bullet, do I have to lube?

After what I have read, paper made of cotton is the best, or?
I have searced on google for that kind of paper her in Sweden, but I have hard time finding it.
So, I wounder, what paper can I use?

If it is possible, I will try to run the bullets at 2050 - 2100 fps, ( that should be no problem in the 405 ), but I like to know if I can do that, if I need some specialpaper for that, or someting else?

I will search on google for "paperpatching", and try to learn someting about it.

[4060MAY]

405
You could get a .401 sizer from Lee
use any paper with a 25% rag (cotton)content
mike the paper number of wraps = the dia you want .416 for example
.003 paper x 3 wraps = .419, lube with paraffin/vasaline mixture
size to .416, no need for a gascheck.

go here for more info
http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/

[Digital Dan]

Buckshot, that looks like a fleet of Hindenbergs!

I hope to dissuade any of you patch-o-philes from using glossy or pigmented paper for patching. Under the heading of "any paper will do".....it will rape your barrels quickly for such products contain kaolin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolinite

[John Boy]

can paperpatching help me?
WCF, back in the late 1870's Sharps had a pamphlet that recommended shooting 50 PP bullets through the bore to remove rust and leading

[405 WCF]

Today I tryed to make some PP bullets.
As I have no sizer small enough to size down my .416 bullets proper for PP bullets, i took some .432 bullets for my 444 Marlin, pushed them trough my .416 sizer, patched them up to .432 with masking tape, lubed them with vaseline, and pushed them trough a .431 sizer.

The bullets I was using is the TLC432-285-RF from Ranch-Dog.
Weight with patch and GC is 276 grs.
( cast out of alloy similiar to Lyman #2)

The original bullet is .736 in long, and after sizing down, the bullet messure .775.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n245/405WCF/Liteavvarje269.jpg

After that I loaded up some bullets for my 444 Marlin, infront of a medium charge of VV N130.
So, tomorrow, when the daylight is here, I will see how they group.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n245/405WCF/Liteavvarje270.jpg

Here are some quests:
Can I patch with masking tape?
Do you think that my rifle will be accurate with this bullets?

[405]

Actually you're patched bullets look really good. Will be interesting to see how they fly!! I think everything imaginable has been tried for patching. Experimentation at its best! If I can see your loaded rounds clearly enough it looks like you put a pretty heavy roll crimp on. Sometimes that wreaks havoc with paper patching and accuracy but, hey, with the masking tape who knows? Keep us informed.

[bigborefan]

405WCF, I'll try to answer some of your questions about PP. First, masking tape is a bad idea. You want the PP to fall off right after leaving the barrel. With the paper shredded after it leaves the barrel, all the bullets will go down the range the same, otherwise bare bullets and bullets with paper still attached do no group very well together. Masking tape has adhesive on it that could melt with the high temperatures involved and cause a mess in your barrel to clean up. Also PP bullets shoot better without a crimp. A crimp would start tearing the paper before it got a good start down the barrel exposing lead to your bore and possibly cause some bad leading. If a crimp is desired, a taper crimp die used carefully would work.

[405 WCF]

Did the first test today with my "tapebullets".
Bad weather, ( snowing ), bad light, ( up here, close to the polarcircle, we dont see so much of the sun this time of the year ), resting on the roof of my car,
88 yards, ( 80 meters ).

First I shot 3 original TLC432-285-RF, and then 3 of my "tapebullets" with the same POI.

This is not any fine tuned load, it's a low velocity load with VV N130, ( around 2100 fps I guess ).
I'm pleased with the results.

I have just "patched" ten more bullets, so tomorrow a hotter load will be tested.

The reason I tried this, was to see if PP was someting that I could try in my 405.
Putting some masking tape on some bullets are easy to do, not much extra time needed, and if they are accurate enough to take down a moose, well, then I'm pleased.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n245/405WCF/Liteavvarje279.jpg

[StrawHat]

First I shot 3 original TLC432-285-RF, and then 3 of my "tapebullets" with the same POI.

... and if they are accurate enough to take down a moose, well, then I'm pleased.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n245/405WCF/Liteavvarje279.jpg

That looks like minute of moose to me!

I have followed this thread with some interest as I also have an 1895 in 405 WCF.

Mine has a new barrel but all else is original .

I will have to try paper patching to see what it can do for me.

"This is not any fine tuned load, it's a low velocity load with VV N130, ( around 2100 fps I guess )."

Well, the original 405 load was a 300 grain bullet at 2200 fps so you are right in the ballpark.

I just reread the post, a 444 Marlin! Okay, in that csae 2100 fps might be slow but I still think it would do for moose. Heck guys over here kill em with arrows.

Good luck and let us know how it works out with the 405.

[405 WCF]

I will let you know how it works out with my 405.
But first, I'll have to buy a smaller sizer, ( only have a .414 and a .416 ).

The bullet I have for my 405 is RCBS .416-350-FN.
Cast out of WW they weigh just under 360 grs with GC and lube.
I will try to get them around 2050 fps, If I can get the rifle to shoot accurate.

This experiment with the 444, was just to see if I could patch bullets with tape.
I have searched for paper with cotton, but I cant find any of that stuff here.
So, I will continue my experiments with the maskingtape.

After all, casting, loading and shooting is very fun!!!

Todays bullets were sized .431.
The bullets for tomorrow will be sized .432.

[Buckshot]

................Olle, RCBS makes a nice 300gr plain based boolit mould intended for the 40 calibers like 40-65, 40-70, 40-82 etc. I have the mould for my 40-65 Rolling block. The boolits drop about .410". These could easily be sized down to .405".

Next.............

Do you have a micrometer? Do you have access to a stationary store (paper, envelopes, pens, mailing supplies, drafting & art supplies, etc & etc)? If you do, grab your micrometer and look for paper that mikes close to .002". That would be ideal, but a couple tenths under or over won't hurt as you can alter your sizing.

Lets say you got that RCBS 300gr mould and have cast and sized some boolits to .405". If you had found some paper that was .0025" thick and paper patched the boolit you would end up with a finished diameter of .414". If you had paper that was .003", your finished boolit would be about .416".

About paper. You don't HAVE to have paper with a cotton content. It's just that such paper is of higher quality. What you have to have in the paper is strength enough after being wetted so as to stretch a bit as you wrap it on the boolit. If you noticed that the finished boolit OD doesn't actually match it's diameter plus 2 wraps of the paper? The reason is that the paper shrinks as it dries.

As a generality, when dry you will loose 1/2 the thickness of one wrap of the paper. For example wrapping a boolit twice with .002" thick paper will not add .008" but rather about .007" to the slug's OD. My suggestion is if you cannot find any lightweight airmail type paper, investiagte art or drawing paper. I just patched up my swaged slugs for the 38-55.

http://www.fototime.com/0FF762D4350643A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/5B9E6A3C74C5B03/standard.jpg

I used tracing paper that was .0017" thick. In the right photo you can see where the lands have engraved the paper a bit. The lands are pressing the paper down and not pushing it back. The lands will actually cut or weaken the paper. As the boolit clears the muzzle the high pressure gases behind it will literally blow the patch into small fragments.

...................Buckshot

[405 WCF]

How high can I load a plain base pp bullet?
If I am going to use a 300 gr bullet, I would like to reach at least 2150 fps.
I know, that is impossible with a normal cast bullet without GC, but can that be done with a pp bullet?
Is that possible with a bullet without GC?

[405 WCF]

Buckshot!
I found the mold you wrote about, the 300 gr mold from RCBS.
That one is very, very expensive here on Midway Sweden.
That price is, 1650 SEK, ( that is around 254 USD )!!!!!!!!!

[405 WCF]

New bullets!
I found some good paper, I think.
An old "reloaders Guide" from IMR.
But, no GC added.

I have loaded this bullets with the same " hotter " load as my "maskingtape" patched.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n245/405WCF/Liteavvarje283.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n245/405WCF/Liteavvarje284.jpg

[Digital Dan]

.405, crude rule of thumb I've read on velocity vs PP is around 2000 fps for pure lead, up to 3000 fps for alloys. The patch will in theory prevent leading if it is not mutilated in the loading or ride down the barrel. The factors regulating velocity are mostly found in the harmony between throat/leade geometry vs. the many dimensions of bullet and bore to some degree. I think it more significant to look at it from the perspective of twist rate and groove depth/geometry and bearing surface of the bullet. From my own experience with the .44 caliber and 20" twist, pure lead get a little goofy as it approaches 1700 fps around 35K PSI with 300 grain RNFB bullets. Swaged and patched round balls go fast with light loads and lose their way somewhere short of 2400 fps. I dunno what it all means though....

[405 WCF]

My bullets is around 16 on the bhrinnel scale.
The "new" testload that I'm supposed to go out and try tomorrow, is loaded to 2150-2200 fps. ( really dont know if the paper does anything to the velocity)

The "maskingtape" loads is with GC, but my "Reloaders-Guide" patched loads is not with GC.

Today, ( well my wife think that I should clean the house instead of playing with bullets, but she dont understand:roll:[smilie=1: ), well, back to the subject.
Today I sized down some of my 350 grs MM bullets, patched with IMR-paper, and loaded to very slow velocity, around 1600-1700 fps I guess.

My Marlin is one of the older, with a 1/38 micro-groove barrel, but it is very accurate with the 350 gr bullet when loaded proper.
But, the downsized 350 gr bullet is very long, and I'm not sure if it will be stabile.
Well well, I will have the answer on that question tomorrow.

Now I like to know: What do you PP bullet shooters lube your PP bullets with?

[no34570]

405WCF
Here's what I do,also a couple of other suggestions,if you like?:
1. Spray with Teflon Spray and dry.
2. Run the bullet through the proper sizer-luber,with Alox lube and wipe off excess lube.

Or the old standby 50/50 beeswax and Vaseline

Hope this helps
:drinks:
Dale
no34570

[405 WCF]

Thanks!
I have a lot of beewax at home, ( used to mix my own lube )

[Buckshot]

..............Any lube that doesn't penetrate the patch works. Also spray moly dry lube is super. If you want that mould I can get it and ship it to you for a heck'uva lot cheaper then that. I think I can ship it for $11 or less.

When you wrap, the end should NOT overlap the beginning except for the 1st complete wrap.

................Buckshot

[405 WCF]

Buckshot!
What is the price for that mold at your place?
Not 11 USD???????
That must be the shipping cost, is'n it???

[405 WCF]

This is two 3-shot groups with the "maskingtape" bullet and the PP bullet.
Still on 88 yards.
I'm pretty pleased.
If my 405 will group like this, than I'm satisfied.

BTW, does it matter for the accuracy that this PP bullets have a shank for GC under the paper?

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n245/405WCF/Liteavvarje285.jpg

[no34570]

405WCF
That is some nice groups you have there:-D
As for the gc shank under the paper,I don't think it brings that much variation into the result,I mean that is a good group,you should be satisfied with that,I would[smilie=1:
Good on ya mate
Dale
no34570:castmine:

[no34570]

405WCF
You could try some with GC on the bases and then wrap them,just to try it out and you also could wrap them with your paper and then put a teflon tape cover over them and then size them to what ever size you go for,.432?
no34570

[Buckshot]

Buckshot!
What is the price for that mold at your place?
Not 11 USD???????
That must be the shipping cost, is'n it???

..............Oh heck yes, the $11 I think is about what shipping would be and NOT the mould :-) The mould is about $67 US at Graf and Son.

...............Buckshot

[405 WCF]

78 USD for the mold and shipping if you buy it for me,
In Sweden, 1780 SEK with the shipping, that is 274 USD!!!!

I will try my 350 gr bullet first, just to see if the rifle is accurate.
If that test pleases my, than I will buy that 300 gr mold from you.

[405 WCF]

Leaving home for work.
I'll be back Friday evening.

Have a nice week!