Just how strong are levers with full tilt loads?

[GRUMPA]

Here I am swaging some 45cal boolits, I own 1911's and I make some for myself. But with just a couple of adjustments and putting in a cannelure making 45LC boolits I do all the time.

My question revolves around the strength of of lever guns. If I wanted 800FPS loads I just use my 1911....but.....If I choose to get a lever in 45LC I want those suckers to impact something with authority. I know there's some guns out there that can handle a steady diet of the faster/harder hitting loads.

But which 1?

I own a lever in 44mag, does pretty well and I would say that rarely, and I mean rarely are my shots under 100yds. Most if not all my shots are at least 150yds and more like 200yds.

Yes I cast 45cal LC boolits all the time for the locals, I know I'll be using those when I want as well as my swaged stuff. I was just curious if any of them can handle almost 44mag pressures on a regular basis.

Maybe I'm asking to much I don't know, maybe I should just be happy using the 44mag.

[texassako]

I took a browse through loadddata, and there are modern Win 94/Marlin 94 only loads that come very close to .44 Mag rifle loads. 255 gr SWC at 1400 fps and 300 gr FP at 1150 fps in a 94 Trapper 16" barrel.

[searcher4851]

If you're talking pistol caliber lever guns, the model 92 action is pretty much the strongest. You can load a 45 Colt up to near 44 mag, and you can use a little bigger bullet. I'd ask why you'd want to go 45 if you already have a 44, but since I have both (the 44 in a 94 action, and the 45 in a 92 action) it would be foolish of me. I do shoot the 45 Colt more mostly because the 92 action is smoother. I also have a model 66 action in 45 Colt, but would not run hot loads through and toggle link action. They just aren't as strong.

[GBertolet]

You didn't mention what make of rifle you were inquiring about. I am familiar with the Marlin. The Marlin 1894 action is built to withstand continous 40K pressure loads. Most current factory .357 and 44 mag ammo does not exceed the 35- 37K range. They used to be higher, but the ammo companies cut it back in recent years. Loading above 40K puts stress on the action that it was not designed for. You could exceed this figure a little occasionally, and get away with it. Continued use at these elevated levels will increase wear, and possibly the eventual bending of the locking lugs.

It is quite easy to duplicate 44 mag ballistics in the 45 Colt rifles of the same model. Quite often the pressures are slightly lower in the 45 Colt, because the case is slightly larger. Some people who reload, like the 45 Colt over the 44 mag, because the Colt can handle heavier bullets better than the 44 mag.

No matter what rifle you finally chose. Work your loads up gradually. There is data in several loading manuals for the 45 Colt, in modern lever action rifles.

[homemade]

Take a look at the Rossi Puma in 454 Casull. Though I have not shot mine very often mine handles 45 LC loaded with 45 auto bullets just fine.

In the meantime: How do I send a private message? I am interested in the 300 blackout brass

[AlaskanGuy]

Just click on Grumpa's name on the left of his post.... It is in red just left of his original post... Should bring up a small menu that has a private message link.... Just click on it and your there....

Careful what you order from Grumpa... Once you get some of his brass, you wont buy anywhere else again... He made my 22 jet brass, and it is almost too purty to shoot...lol

AG

[osteodoc08]

AFAIK the Marlin is good up to 40K PSI loadings. I try to keep most of my loadings in the "Level II" catergory which is 20K PSI. Mostly so I can shoot them in my M25 Mountain gun and my Marlin CB. With 13.5gr HS-6 behind a 45-270-SAA boolit, I get about 1360fps out of my 1894CB. Plenty for anything I'm hunting in NW GA.

I've shot "Ruger Only" loads out of my 1894CB and never encountered any signs of high pressure. It's not like there is going to be a huge difference in metallurgy used in the 44 vs 45.

[GRUMPA]

I'm not brand loyal, so in regards to which 1 in all honesty I have no clue at all, that's why I'm asking. To put things in a simple manner I like flexibility with what I do/make for whatever reason. Here I am making stuff for other folks...WHY?....because things just aren't getting cheaper the longer you wait, and things in the rural parts of this country aren't as easy to come by.

Soooooo....here I am swaging these things, which do take time, wondering why in the world I don't have something that uses this cal boolit is something I might just need to correct.

I have often thought about the 454 round from time to time and I have yet to experiment swaging the heavy boolits for it. And what I mean by heavy is the 300gr+ but I want to use the more expensive cases for that, and of course they just don't grow on trees. When I get an idea I think about it a little here and a little there all the time. With everything I do that's about as good as it gets with the dreaded CRS kicking in all the time.

I know 454 cases cost a bit more, I would imagine it's made with a beefier case. For the money and ease of components I would go with the 45LC hands down.

[robertbank]

The 92 action will take the 454 Casull so there is no reason why you couldn't load your 45Colt up to Ruger only loads with no worries at all. I would think the 45Colt, like the 44 Mag is going to shoot like a rainbow at those distances. Neither cartridge would be my choice to reach out to 200 yards. Even the 30-30 would be a stretch, though less so than either of the handgun cartridges.

You gain a couple hundred feet per second with a rifle over a handgun due to the longer barrel but still bullets for the 44Mag and 45Colt are about as aerodynamic as house.

Take Care

Bob

[rbuck351]

I have a Rossi in 454 and shoot the Lee 300gr ( actually 317 in ww) at 1950 fps. You can use the 45Colt case and load a long OAL and get almost the same. The gun will handle 62,000psi if you can take the recoil in that light of rifle. There is room for a little more velocity but not enough to make any real difference.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Grumpa: The Marlin guns are good for the 40K-43,500 psi mentioned above. However shooting 300+ gr boolits at over 1600 fps from a 7 lb gun is going to show the weak link... IE : you!

As far as the distances you mention neither the .44 or the .45 are going to be the best choice. I have shot Short Range Silhouette with my 1894 CB in .44 and the 200 meter Rams are knocked down with authority with 250 gr boolits. But the trajectory is a rainbow, and unless you make adjustments to your sights to compensate for the different ranges there is no zero that will do it all. With a 100 yard base zero you will be 3 feet or more low at 200. With a 150 yard zero you're still going to be 2 feet low.

If you were shooting smaller game like 100 lb. deer or little piggys then you could use a 429215CG (215 gr version of 429244) and reduce your trajectory a lot. A 200 gr boolit at 1800-2000fps is still a pretty formidable thing to hurl down range, and it would be a lot flatter shooting than the heavier boolits.

If you are going to run a scope on your gun then you could install one of those Stoney Point turrets and sight the gun in at all your different distances and then make elevation corrections as needed based on previous data. I do the same thing with Lyman Receiver sights at my Silhouette shoots. In fact it would be a good idea to shoot your gun at a few silhouette shoots just so you can get the hang of shooting at known distances out to 200 meters.

If you are going to be shooting at longer distances as a normal thing. Then maybe we should talk about a different caliber like a .308 or .30-06. Browning has made Leverguns in both calibers and several others as well.

Randy

[robertbank]

Some have mentioned recoil. I had my 'smith install a recoil pad on my Rossie 44mag. With my cast loads the recoil was brutal and I mean brutal. It hurt in fact. With the recoil pad installed no worries and my cast loads are not real warm either. The curved steel butt plate was the culprit.

Take Care

Bob

[lar45]

The Rossi/Puma in 454 comes with a rubber butt pad.

[GRUMPA]

The 44mag I have and use I put on a 1" butt-pad on. And with the LEE 310gr I developed flinchitus after the fifth shot and Chronied at just over 1400FPS. I'm sure that if and when I decide to get a 45LC lever I'll be putting it through the paces and go from there. Yes I'm very well aware of the arc or rainbow effect but trying to use anything with a scope is a bit difficult when I'm out on the tractor working the property.

My levers in it's scabbard work the best for me, they're shorter and easier for me to handle and the follow up shot is much quicker.

[Grapeshot]

Winchester's 1879 test of the Model 1876s action strength

________________________________________

I don't know how many of you fellers have read this, but this excerpt from Bill Hockett's 2002 article on the Centennial Winchester explains the strength testing that Winchester performed on the new model. It is a bit of an eye opener.

"The Model 1876 is the only repeating rifle that had successful, documented use in the northern plains buffalo slaughter. Earlier repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencer, and Winchester Models of 1866 and 1873 may have seen limited use, but only the Model 1876 was considered by hunters as powerful enough to do the job against the big woolies. The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."

[RobS]

And here you go:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[KirkD]

RobS's link is the Cat's Meow for stiff, Model 92 Colt 45 shootin'

[TXGunNut]

My Trapper in 45 Colt will handle anything my RBH will handle, probably more. The Marlin is even stronger. Saw some brass on Track of the Wolf the other day. Only problem is you'll want a SAA pretty soon, seeing quite a few good clones on the LGS shelves these days.