StG-58, settles in...

[offshore44]

The StG-58 has settled into a load that it likes. A lot. It has taken a little development, but it has definitely been worth it.

The components are:
Mixed military surplus brass.
CCI large rifle primers
RCBS 308-165-silh boolit, sized 0.3095" +/-
94-3-3 alloy, heat treated to about 27 bhn
Lubed with BAC
Hornady gas checks
3.2 grains of 5744 kicker
44.8 grains WC860
Gas setting of 6

The cases were given the full fluff and buff treatment the first time through, (and neck sized only there after with a standard RCBS neck sizing die- didn't work out as well as hoped - random and occasional FTF's with neck sizing only) Run through a small base die after that. The 5744 kicker charge is scooped and weighed, with charges varying more than 0.1 grain being either trickled up or thrown back into the pond. The main WC860 charge is thrown, weighed, and dumped into the case. The boolit is immediately seated on each round to 2.740" col. This puts the bore riding nose (0.301' dia.) about 3/32" into the lands, and the first drive band just off touching the throat. A medium crimp is applied with the Lee factory crimp die.

18 - 20 loaded rounds are stuffed into a magazine depending on how long they are going to sit, and away we go!

At the range: The rifle runs very clean, cool and reliably. It will cycle on a gas setting of 7.5, but the bolt won't lock back. The brass piles up at your feet. The bolt will reliably lock back on an empty magazine at a gas setting of 6, and the brass piles up about 4' in front of the shooting position and about 5' to the right. No brass damage has been found so far at this load and gas setting. No bent rims, crushed case mouths or dented cases. No FTE, FTF or other malfunctions so far. No doubling or other excitement either. (The StG-58 has a firing pin spring to limit pin bounce on the feed cycle that seems to work pretty well so far.) A loaded case can be extracted from the chamber without leaving a boolit in the barrel and dumping powder into the action.

The load shoots to point of aim with the iron sights at 100 yards. Nice, that. Not a lot of difference between the issue aperture sights and a 6x scope for group size. That says more about my skill than the load though. A twenty round string from the magazine puts a 3 - 4" group on paper that is round and with a greater density of hits in the center than the edges. It's shot off hand, as the StG doesn't really like being shot off the bench. Whatever the cause, it throws the group up and to the right by a bunch off the bench. That very well may be a technique issue. (It was, things are greatly improving off the bench!)

Some very interesting things happened working a load up for this rifle. The condition of the brass changed by using different powders and gas settings. There was everything from completely mangled brass to nice, almost ready to reload brass. There were differences in barrel / action temperature, cleanliness, reliability and, of course, functioning of the action. It was a good way to learn a lot.

The only thing I would change is oven heat treating the boolits. Next time around it'll be water dropped to see what happens. I'm betting they work just fine. (I was wrong, WD is just not quit enough additional strength...close, but no cigar)

[BruceB]

Very interesting!

Somewhere, I have sixteen pounds of WC867, and I intend to do some work with it in various calibers/rifles, including my own DSA SA58, Garand and M1A.

Non-autoloaders are also scheduled for some research as well, of course, but THIS work of yours will be of great assistance.

If we can obtain reliable results with these low-priced slow-burning powders, it will be a great benefit.

[offshore44]

Howdy BruceB...

The SA58 should work great. I don't own a Garand, or an M1A, but I would be kinda careful working up a load for them. The port pressure was noticeably higher with the WC860 than with any of the other powders that I tried. I'm guessing from the evidence that the peak pressure was lower, but it was carried much further down the barrel than anything else. Makes sense for a slow burning ball powder though. With military surplus ammo this rifle is almost over gassed at a setting of 5. The faster powders, 5744 for instance, required a setting of 3 and over heated the rifle in less than twenty rounds. The medium speed powders, H4895 and Varget, ran pretty well but left powder in the action and gave terrible groups. I think the boolits were being pushed to hard at ignition.

Another interesting observation is that the difference in case capacity between the different brass didn't seem to make a whole bunch of difference in point of impact with duplexed WC860. Lake City, Federal, WCC, SBS whatever didn't really change anything, within my ability to shoot anyway.

The only other kicker powder that I tried was Power Pistol. Seemed to work fine with no mixing issues even though PP is a very fine flake powder. That would be a whole 'nother load workup though. The few that I messed with seemed to want a half grain more Power Pistol that 5744.

Edited to add: The 8mm 24-47 wanted to like WC860, but there is more work to do there. Those non-duplexed loads left powder in the first three or four inches of bore. Shot pretty well though. They definitely hit the berm with authority and also with some accuracy.

[DR Owl Creek]

Offshore44

VERY NICE. That makes me want to try duplex loads too.

As far as shooting your STG-58 off the bench, try moving your shooting bag around to different positions, possibly even back right next to the receiver. Mine are a little touchy about POI shifting when shooting with the bipod extended or off bags. My DSA Para shoots fine off of bags or a Caldwell Lead Sled, but that could be because of the shorted 18" barrel being a little stiffer.

Dave

[offshore44]

Thanks, DR Owl Creek. I messed with bag position some, but the results were inconclusive. I am actually thinking of putting the bipod back on the rifle. Not a lot of difference in accuracy for me with it on or off.

Going back over my notes, I came up with another tidbit that probably needs mentioning. You can make the gas plug solder to the gas block on command with these things. The faster the powder, the more lead gets deposited. Not an issue with slow powders though. I also wipe a little Permatex high temp / high pressure anti-sieze compound on the plug after cleaning. It's good to 1200 degrees F. Any crud essentially wipes right off. That way if I boof a load and it tries to lead up the gas plug, it still comes out without tools.

[nicholst55]

I'm pleased that you're experiencing success, offshore44! I get so tired of resident "experts" on other forums stating unequivocally that 'you can't shoot cast bullets in a gas-gun! You'll foul up the gas tube/piston/cylinder with lead!' I find it particularly interesting that your 20-round cast boolit groups are about the same size as many people's 3-5-round jacketed bullet groups with this platform!

[45 2.1]

Somewhere, I have sixteen pounds of WC867, and I intend to do some work with it in various calibers/rifles, including my own DSA SA58, Garand and M1A.

If we can obtain reliable results with these low-priced slow-burning powders, it will be a great benefit.

Surplus 867 works fine in the 308/7.62 rifles as long as you duplex it correctly. You'll like the results.

[offshore44]

I'm pleased that you're experiencing success, offshore44! I get so tired of resident "experts" on other forums stating unequivocally that 'you can't shoot cast bullets in a gas-gun! You'll foul up the gas tube/piston/cylinder with lead!' I find it particularly interesting that your 20-round cast boolit groups are about the same size as many people's 3-5-round jacketed bullet groups with this platform!


I'm genetically predisposed to ignore "experts". Haven't blown myself up yet, so it seems to be working out so far.

This particular StG is a 1 1/2 - 2" rifle on a good day with ammo it likes. I have a feeling that with a little fiddling about, it will settle down to be 2 - 3" rifle with this load after a little more development. I can live with that.

[DR Owl Creek]

...

Going back over my notes, I came up with another tidbit that probably needs mentioning. You can make the gas plug solder to the gas block on command with these things. The faster the powder, the more lead gets deposited. Not an issue with slow powders though. I also wipe a little Permatex high temp / high pressure anti-sieze compound on the plug after cleaning. It's good to 1200 degrees F. Any crud essentially wipes right off. That way if I boof a load and it tries to lead up the gas plug, it still comes out without tools.

Thanks! I'll make a note of that.

Dave

[offshore44]

Thought that I would come back and report on my success again. The rifle and I have become well acquainted in the last little bit. We have burned through just under 1,000 gas checks, slightly less than half a jug of WC860, several pounds of lead and a negligible amount of 5744. The 3.2 /44.8 grn recipe is still holding out as the most accurate load tested. The water dropped alloy worked, sort of, with the groups opening up slightly but noticeably. The rifle is loosening up and smoothing out to a noticeable degree. The gas has been opened up one turn + to 3 on the dial. Cleaning is very easy at this point, a couple of pulls though with a bore snake & Ed's Red, wipe the gas piston and the gas plug down with ER and a rag, wipe the action / bolt/ bolt carrier down and relube. It only takes about 10 minutes or so to have a nice clean, ready to shoot rifle again.

So, after almost 1,000 rounds of cast through the StG-58 version of the FN FAL, I'm declaring the experiment a success. So much so, that I've set aside 20 specially prepared "Target Rounds" for the next time I'm out and it's one of those goods days behind the trigger. Full target fluff and buff on the matched cases, matched boolits, special care in measuring powder, seating, the whole nine yards. We shall see what we shall see.

I did have one target where 7 out of twenty shots were touching. Seven nice round holes in a line up and slightly to the left with the lead rings on the paper overlapping. Lots of two, three and four shot touching clusters amongst the groups on other magazine loads / targets. A few wanderers opening the groups up to three and sometimes four inches. The rifle is pretty much eating the target dot out of the center of the target at 100 yards leaving but shredded paper behind.

I am so stoked on this load and rifle combination! Thanks for all the help guys, this site just rocks for good cast boolit information!

Next up: Extending the range... Hmmm, I wonder how far is too far?

[45 2.1]

Next up: Extending the range... Hmmm, I wonder how far is too far?

Testing loads at about 400 yards defines whether they shoot well or not. A fine performing load at 100 yards can be terrible at 400 yards. It is best to do your load development at long range because it is easier to see what is wrong out there (and adjust the load). Once it shoots good out there, you only have to worry about the point it enters the transonic range down range.

[Larry Gibson]

"A fine performing load at 100 yards can be terrible at 400 yards."

My goodness is 45 2.1 talking about non linear group dispersion????

:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu

Larry Gibson

I'm sure we'll now get a fine soft shoe tap dance across the rice paper..............:violin:

[45 2.1]

Wrong.... as usual.... again. Harmonic based load problems.... yes.

[offshore44]

Come on guys, take that stuff someplace else. OK? I've learned a bunch from both of you here on this site. Let me bask in my moment of self congratulatory glory.

Oh, a couple of things... Neck sized only cases, as expected, cause FTF's about once or twice per magazine. I'm going back to small base sizing everything, all the time. The funny thing is, you can manually load one of the FTF rounds and it chambers just fine. No clue there.

Went to put my bipod back on and messed up one of the screws. Not the easiest thing to come by these days.

[supersniper]

Congrats on your load success!

No need for small base dies. Regular full-length size dies work just fine. Especially since the FAL chambers are very "generous".

[Larry Gibson]

offshore44

Concur with supersniper. Suggest the standard RCBS X-die which will greatly increase the case life with that rifle, especially over SB dies.

Have you chronographed that load yet?

"The rifle is pretty much eating the target dot out of the center of the target at 100 yards leaving but shredded paper behind."

45 2.1 is correct that some loads can seemingly shoot very well at 100 yards and then shoot poorly as the range increases (the non linear group expansion). As to the reason for that and any discussion there of.....yes, you are correct that is better suited for elsewhere.

Why non linear group expansion happens doesn't matter here. The question is; does it happen here with this seemingly very satisfactory load? The point being with the bullet and barrel twist you are using bullet stability should not be a problem, at least until the bullet begins dropping back down from sonic to sub sonic. Your load shoots very well at 100 yards. If that load exhibits linear group expansion at 200 yards then it will be a good accurate load across the sonic spectrum of it's flight. However, if the groups (with a sufficient sample of 10 shots each) show a non linear increase at 200 yards over the 100 yard group then further load development is probably needed if shooting past that is a goal. If non linear expansion is occurring between 100 and 200 yards then accuracy will not improve as range increases, it will only deteriorate at a greater rate as the range increases.


Larry Gibson

[DR Owl Creek]

Thought that I would come back and report on my success again. The rifle and I have become well acquainted in the last little bit. We have burned through just under 1,000 gas checks, slightly less than half a jug of WC860, several pounds of lead and a negligible amount of 5744. The 3.2 /44.8 grn recipe is still holding out as the most accurate load tested. The water dropped alloy worked, sort of, with the groups opening up slightly but noticeably. The rifle is loosening up and smoothing out to a noticeable degree. The gas has been opened up one turn + to 3 on the dial. Cleaning is very easy at this point, a couple of pulls though with a bore snake & Ed's Red, wipe the gas piston and the gas plug down with ER and a rag, wipe the action / bolt/ bolt carrier down and relube. It only takes about 10 minutes or so to have a nice clean, ready to shoot rifle again.

So, after almost 1,000 rounds of cast through the StG-58 version of the FN FAL, I'm declaring the experiment a success. So much so, that I've set aside 20 specially prepared "Target Rounds" for the next time I'm out and it's one of those goods days behind the trigger. Full target fluff and buff on the matched cases, matched boolits, special care in measuring powder, seating, the whole nine yards. We shall see what we shall see.

I did have one target where 7 out of twenty shots were touching. Seven nice round holes in a line up and slightly to the left with the lead rings on the paper overlapping. Lots of two, three and four shot touching clusters amongst the groups on other magazine loads / targets. A few wanderers opening the groups up to three and sometimes four inches. The rifle is pretty much eating the target dot out of the center of the target at 100 yards leaving but shredded paper behind.

I am so stoked on this load and rifle combination! Thanks for all the help guys, this site just rocks for good cast boolit information!

Next up: Extending the range... Hmmm, I wonder how far is too far?

Offshore44,

Again, Thanks for posting your results. Very impressive indeed! Keep us updated on how everything else works out. It appreciated very much.

Dave

[tomme boy]

44, your brass is not going to last very long with the SB die. Get a regular FL die or an X-die. Set it up to just bump the shoulder. They will chamber fine and the brass will last a very very long time.

You may want to try playing with the crimp a little to see if anything changes. Try some with just the flair removed from the brass for seating. Assuming you do flair it. Also you might want to try sizing 0.311"+. It will help fill the throat a little better.

Does this have the fluted chamber? I can't remember if these do or not.

[offshore44]

You all are very welcome. It's good to share, and pay back a little of what I've learned here in kind.

Larry, I haven't chrono'd this load yet. Two reasons, really. The first is that my chronograph on-off button had an unfortunate meeting with a 860 fps 45 ACP round a couple of months back. It refuses to turn on and rattles when shaken. Hmmm... ;) The second reason is that when I was using the chrono in load development, I tended to get wrapped around the axel on velocity statistics. I'm working on getting another chronograph, but it's not here yet. I'll post the results when that happens. The new paradigm where I make the rifle happy and small groups on paper seems to be working out pretty well so far, velocity numbers are just, well, numbers.

Good tip on the X-die, I'll look into that. The only issue is the barrel on this rifle is that this rifle is one of the few StG-58 Standards (semi-G. I. issue configuration) where DSA screwed in one of their match barrel configuration barrels. Tight, lapped bore and tight match reamer cut chamber. One of the reasons that I never shot the rifle much was that chamber. Even good DAG surplus would give me occasional FTF's. If the case dimensions were off just a hair or the COL was just a hair long for the bullet shape, the bolt wouldn't lock up. Drove me nuts until I figured it out, AND had a long discussion with DSA customer service. When I ordered my rifle from them, they had just run out of Styre barrels (or were running out anyway). It was handy so the smith screwed this barrel on and sent it on it's way. Got lucky or not depending on your viewpoint.

Like I said, stretching the legs on this load is the next step. Around here that means shooting across a canyon, so we'll see if there is one to be found that is handy to get to. If I get non-linear group expansion, I'll report it here and start a new thread so we can all express our points of view...who knows, but I'm betting that a solution will be found for this rifle if it happens.

Take care everyone!

[offshore44]

44, your brass is not going to last very long with the SB die. Get a regular FL die or an X-die. Set it up to just bump the shoulder. They will chamber fine and the brass will last a very very long time.

You may want to try playing with the crimp a little to see if anything changes. Try some with just the flair removed from the brass for seating. Assuming you do flair it. Also you might want to try sizing 0.311"+. It will help fill the throat a little better.

Does this have the fluted chamber? I can't remember if these do or not.

I'll mess about with dies if I get the chance and the money. Good tips there, thanks. I do flair the brass, and remove the flair with a Lee FCD + a little. Sizing to 0.311" may be a no-go with this mold, as my alloy drops 0.310" +/- a few tenths of thousandths. If I Beagle the mold, then the bore riding section gets over 0.302" - and that opens up a whole 'nother can o' worms with COL and unfired case extraction. The number of inter-dependencies and gotcha's makes my eyes water with this thing.

Oh, and the fluted chambers are on the HK-91 / G-3's. Roller locked, delayed blow-back design. Had one of those for a short period of time and it absolutely mangled the brass when they were launched into low earth orbit. No worries about a pile of brass giving away your position in a firefight with that rifle! The bolt gap went to zero in about 500 rounds, so it went away as a parts rifle, then I ordered the DSA StG-58. Took a huge beating on that PTR-91, and it kind of soured me on HK's in general.

[BruceB]

This thread is on my "Favorites: list, and I've been watching with great interest. In the next few days or so, I hope to cast my first bullets since my health went south in January of 2012. My new loading bench is set up now, and I'm getting closer....

One of the high-priority projects will be my own DSA SA58, which needs a good cast load for general shooting. Given the practical limits of service rifles (meaning, not match rifles) a cast load that approaches "service load" accuracy will make me a happy shooter. Most service acceptance tests seem to run around 3.5" groups or thereabouts at 100 yards. I haven't found it too difficult to better that figure with cast bullets in most rifles.... but I'm eager to test that statement with my FAL.

The rifle has a horrible trigger, which doesn't help, but it also has a Bushnell 3200 scope, which DOES help. We'll see. I must be weakening in my old age.... I actually found myself checking out scope mounts for the M1A, which I swore would never wear glass.


The HK91 I had for a while was also an amazing brass-launcher. The only type I remember as being worse, is the Ljungmann 6.5x55, and it would lay the brass down in the next Zip Code. However, even the HK brass was reloadable for at least a few times, despite the flute marks.

Whatever else is done to those .310 bullets, I'd try to avoid ANY diameter reduction at all, They might work well at that diameter.

Keep up the good work; you have an appreciative audience out here.

[Stoats]

Try using a .311 die to lube and GC the .310 bullets. Leaves the bullet as cast, and sets the check nicely.

Also, the rainbow arc ejection of the G3 apparently is great at giving the shooter's position away if the sun's out - follow the line of spinning shining brass to the source...

[offshore44]

I'm really looking forward to hearing about your load development & the SA58, Bruce B. I'm guessing that you will be pleasantly surprised by how the effort turns out. Yup, the FAL isn't known for it's match grade trigger, that's for sure. I've heard that Bill Springfield does a pretty good job on FAL triggers. Never shot one though. I've also heard that messing with a FAL trigger's geometry and engagement surfaces is a recipe for heartbreak. I understand that it is really easy to get onto unsafe territory fast that way. The ATF&E requires that the safety sear and the safety sear slot be removed from the action for the rifle to be classified as a semi-auto and legal. Without the safety sear, one faux pas in geometery on the hammer and trigger engagement surfaces - well, you can guess the results. Hear-say only, of course.

I kinda feel like I'm out on point in Indian Country all alone here. I know that others have loaded cast in the FAL pattern rifles, just not a lot written about it. One of the things that I picked up somewhere, is that the inch pattern rifles don't seem to lead the gas block as easily. It has an angled gas port.

When the PTR-91 closed up the bolt gap, it would put a massive dent in the side of the case and crush the case mouths closed almost on ejection. The flute marks were never an issue.

Stoats: my 0.309" sizing die sizes to 0.3095+", and just barely touches the boolits on the way through. If it gets to be an issue though, I'll open it up just a hair to see if that improves matters any.

[BruceB]

I had just gotten started with cast loads in the SA58 when the medical roof fell in. It'll be great to get back into it.

The Canadian version of the rifle was my service rifle back in the '60s. In later years, many inch-pattern rifles (L1A1) came into Canada from Britain and Australia.

Those rifles came complete with safety dears, which made a bubba conversion to full-auto VERY easy..... five minutes and a beer-can pull tab, if one knew what he was doing.... and I did!

Of course, a ten-pound .308 in full auto is not very practical (although, from a good prone position I could put short bursts on a human silhouette at 100 yards.... NOT from off-hand or kneeling, though!)

I had an original Sudanese AR10 for a while....it weighed about 7.5 pounds and they were ISSUED in full-auto to the raw troops of the Sudan..... I imagine they shot a lot of clouds.

[45 2.1]

I kinda feel like I'm out on point in Indian Country all alone here. I know that others have loaded cast in the FAL pattern rifles, just not a lot written about it.

You're not..... the problem is detractors when talking about what semi-autos will do. PM me if you want specifics about cast in semi-autos.