45 ACP Brass Data

[DR Owl Creek]

This is data I have accumulated over a period of time, while trying to work-up the most accurate and consistent loads I can. I thought I would share this with you.

CBC/MagTech (20 pcs): Average Weight 86.4 gr, ES 6.7
CCI Blazer (50 pcs): Average Weight 84.5 gr, ES 2.7 gr
Federal (10 pcs): Average Weight 87.9 gr, ES 2.8 gr
Federal (100 pcs): Average Weight 83.7 gr, ES 4.8 gr *
Fiocchi (100 pcs): Average weight 80.7 gr, ES 5.3 gr
GFL (Fiocchi) (10 pcs): Average Weight 84.8 gr, ES 4.6 gr
PMC (20 pcs): Average Weight 89.0 gr, ES 3.4 gr
Remington (10 pcs): Average Weight 88.9 gr, ES 2.1 gr
Starline (100 pcs): Average Weight 78.2 gr, ES 1.8 gr
Sellier & Bellot (10 pcs): Average Weight 89.3 gr, ES 2.9 gr
Speer (nickel) (10 pcs): Average Weight 88.1 gr, ES 2.6 gr
WCC '94 (10 pcs): Average Weight 93.8 gr, ES 3.1 gr
WCC '96 (10 pcs): Average Weight 91.5 gr, ES 2.4 gr
Winchester (10 pcs): Average Weight 87.4 gr, ES 5.1 gr
Winchester (nickel) (10 pcs): Average Weight 87.9 gr, ES 2.7 gr

* Deleting one (1) heaviest piece resulted in Average Weight of 83.6 grains, with an ES of only 2.2 grains for 99 pieces.

Please add any other relevant data you have for 45 ACP brass, such as other brands, case neck thickness, case capacity, number of times reloaded, problems if any, etc. Loading comment or quirks with these would also be appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

[williamwaco]

Thanks, Lots of work there.

[DR Owl Creek]

Not a problem. Thanks for looking.

[Old Caster]

Check the Magnus website and you will see the groups they got with various powders, their bullets and mixed brass. In most pistols it isn't important if brass is mixed.http://www.magnusbullets.com/images/185-moly.jpg

[DR Owl Creek]

Old Caster

I don't have a lot of data accumulated yet loading cast lead bullets in the 45 ACP, but I have a ton of data from over the years with jacketed bullets from various manufacturers, along with different types and weights. I do most of my handgun load work-ups shooting from a bench at 25 yards, using a two-handed hold with a bag supporting my wrist. I have a progressive press, but seldom use it in the full progressive mode anymore. I size and deprime, then flare the case mouth, then I take the brass out, and weigh out each powder charge on a digital powder dispenser, just like I would do with 308 Winchester rounds. Then I put the brass back in the progressive to seat the bullets, and then crimp them. Loading this way, I can easily load 500 rounds in either an afternoon, or an evening, as long as my back holds out. Same with 308s.

One problem I continually had was with unexplained fliers. I eventually discovered that at least one-third of my Winchester 45 ACP brass had case necks on the inside that were noticeably rougher than the rest. Winchester wasn't the only brand that had this problem. Once I culled out the brass with the rough case necks, most of those unexplained fliers went away. YMMV.

Being this anal if you're shooting paper plate sized targets at 7 to 10 yards certainly won't make any difference. I think I can show that for precise shooting at 25 yards or more, it can make a difference. I think with a scoped handgun at 100 yards or more, it certainly will make a difference. IMO.

Dave

[Old Caster]

I used a Les Baer wad gun to work up Bullseye loads at 50 yards with a Ransom Rest. Number 1, the rest has to be set up correctly or it just won't work right anyway. All the Bullseye shooters used to use 185 grain Star hollow point swaged bullets and I had to start my experimenting when these were no longer available. My best results with bought bullets were Zero and Magnus 200 grain swaged but couldn't get better than about 3 inches 10 shots at 50 yards. Most all of the cast commercial bullets would be 5 inches or worse except I once bought some Dardas 200 grain wadcutters and accidently ordered .451. I did not have confidence when I bought them but decided to use them to settle the RR in and was amazed when I got groups around 2 inches with them. For one thing, I never get results as good with hard lead and I don't have good results with hard lube either. Since the groups were so good I decided to get some .452 and some .453. Each was much worse with the .453 being by far the worst.

I finally settled on a Saeco 069 sized at .452 BHN around 9 after also getting almost the same results from a 068. Both of these will consistently give me right at 2 inches. I have a group buy 200 grain mold that I assume is a Lee and it is a flat base 200 grain. It is almost as good as the Saeco bullet but the quality isn't there and eventually it will fail but at least it is 6 cavity. I generally use it only at the 25 yard line for timed and rapid fire matches. Out of all the loads I tried, my best is 5.4 of power pistol and 3.5 of Clays. I don't have a scope on the slide or the 3.5 wouldn't work but the 5.4 would.

Some of my friends also have LB wad guns and their guns like a slightly different load but they certainly agree when it comes to bullet choice. I know one of them is using 231 another is using 700X and another is using WST but we all use the Saeco 069 for the long line. I don't know the powder amounts.

[DR Owl Creek]

Agreed! the SAECO 069 and Zeros have always been the most accurate for me too.

For a little more clarification about what I meant by rough inside case necks causing unexplained fliers in post 5, I first discovered the problem when I bought 200 new pieces of Winchester 22-250 brass several years ago. These were nice and shinny on the outside, but the inside of the case necks looked rougher than a corn cob, with what appeared to be very heavy oxidation from annealing. IMO. I should have sent the cases back, but I needed them at that time. I put them in a shell holder chucked in a cordless drill, and brushed them out with a stainless steel bore brush. I probably got enough brass dust from the 200 pieces to almost half fill a shot glass.

I worked up some loads for my Kimber 84M Varmint using Sierra 50 grain Blitz Kings. That rifle is usually very accurate, but the best I could do was slightly under 1" groups, which was very disappointing. I redid a small batch of loads exactly the same way, except for using once-fired Federal and Frontier (Hornady) case, and got groups about half the size as with the Winchester brass.

When I cleaned all the brass in a tumbler using pretty well worn out treated walnut shell media, the outside of all the cases was bright and shinny. The inside of the Federal and Frontier case necks was relatively shinny, but the inside of the Winchester case necks had that rusty-brown colored rouge dust almost imbedded in the necks. BTW If I used walnut media that was new, these Winchester inside case necks would be just dull looking.

Then I remembered that a lot of my handgun brass had that rusty-brown look on the inside too, so I started checking it out closely. Around one-third of the Winchester pistol brass (9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP) was like that. I think a lot of the CBC/MagTech and GFL/Fiocchi was like that too.

That's when I started doing some tests comparing brass with the cleaner, shinier inside case necks against those with the rusty-brown colored ones. It seemed like with the all rusty-brown colored brass, as many as 2 out of 5 shots would have fliers away from the rest of the group, while with the brass with shinier inside case necks, the fliers seldom happened. I had pretty much the same results with the 9mm and 40 S&W tests too. It seems like the fliers had to be the result of different case neck tension from the rough surface. IMO.

Dave

[Old Caster]

There is probably a lot to that because variable neck tension is one of the biggest factors in accuracy.