Best Millitary Bolt to Use Cast with? [Archive]

Uncle Grinch

01-08-2008, 06:14 PM

Most of our match top place holders shoot 03's, Swedes, or Garands.

We do have quite a few other rifles entered, but the ones that win the most are those that are shot the most, ie... Learn Your Rifle, whatever it is and shoot it a lot!

Good Luck with whatever you choose.

NSP64

01-08-2008, 06:39 PM

I was wondering because the guy at the range today said he had some 'Jap' rifles he can't get to shoot 'worth a darn' . he reloads but with 'j' not cast.

JeffinNZ

01-08-2008, 06:43 PM

I was wondering because the guy at the range today said he had some 'Jap' rifles he can't get to shoot 'worth a darn' . he reloads but with 'j' not cast.

Yeah but I shoot with a lot of folk whose round ball MLers don't shoot worth a darn either but both of mine cloverleaf at 50m.

My Lee Enfields like cast bullets.

Shiloh

01-08-2008, 07:26 PM

Both my Krag and '03 shoot very well with cast boolits. I don't have an M-1 but my buddy does, it shoots very well with cast also.

Shiloh

Ricochet

01-08-2008, 08:02 PM

Right now I'd probably take one of my M91/30s.

Bret4207

01-08-2008, 08:16 PM

Best buy is a K-31 Swiss. Great sights, great condition, great cartridge, cheap. A second would be a Springfield for 3 to 5 times the money, but only because of the sights.

My opinion is based on my eyes. Mauser sights aren't the greatest for target and the Rooskis are worse.

beemer

01-08-2008, 10:40 PM

I have a M39 Finn that has not been the least bit fussy about what it shoots. The sights are good and the adjustable front sight will spoil you. I think it is the best rifle I have for cast.
They are a bit pricey compared to most milsurps but worth it. Next is the K31, probably the most rifle you will ever find for the money. Yugo 48 mausers usually do alright if you tinker with it but those sights again. .The bottom line is to find a rifle in nice condition with good sights and a good bore and figure out what it likes.

beemer

Ricochet

01-08-2008, 10:54 PM

Early Russki sights suck because they look like Mauser sights. The WWII vintage ones with a post and square notch work quite well. And the elevation is continuously adjustable, not in fixed quanta.

mike in co

01-08-2008, 11:35 PM

its been said.....
but he did post on the cast mil board...so i would drop the swede...

just the k31 and the 1903-a3 are left.
i'd add a excellent m39...the sights are very good.

yes and i own a couple m39's, a bunch of 44's 98's in 8mm and 7.62(308), and 4 enfields......and on and on......

the most popular cast that i shoot is a 8mm like new yugo mauser with our group buy 175.

but it aint competitive.....

mike

oksmle

01-09-2008, 12:39 AM

newsmokepole64 .... Following is a list of rifles & 10 shot groups fired in them at our local Military Bolt Action Bench Rest Matches. My overall favorite would probably be the Krag. But now that I have the Mod. 91/30 shooting the way I thought it should it will be used because of the sights. Its barrel length is long enough so that my eyes feel comfortable for the entire match. That's no longer true with any of the others. Each rifle has both won & lost its share of matches. None of them came with a magic load that was an immediate success.

1. 1903 Spgfld - Lyman 311335 - 19.1 grs SR4759 - 0.995"
2. S/C 03-A3 - Lyman 311332 - 18.5 grs SR4759 - 0.743"
3. E/Stone Mod. 1917 - Lyman 311332 - 19.5 grs SR4759 - 0.771"
4. Rem. 03-A3 - Lyman 311667 - 20.0 grs SR4759 - 0.647"
5. Enfld #4Mk1 - Fatter .30 - 19.1 grs SR4759 - 1.111"
6. Enfld #4Mk2 - Fatter .30 - 19.1 grs - SR4759 - 1.001"
7. SMLE - NEI 72 - 23.0 grs 4895 & PSB filler - No Lube - 0.083"
8. Mod. 91/30 - Fatter .30 - 22.0 grs SR4759 - 0.097"
9. Mod. '98 Krag - Lyman 311284 - 19.1 grs SR4759 - 1.000"

oksmle

RU shooter

01-09-2008, 12:40 AM

What? no M44...... For Fun yes For a match No WAY! Not the easiest rifle to load in rapid fire even with proper stripper clips(same with all mosin nagant ), short sight radius ,impossible to use issue sling for support properly. And no balance what so ever in offhand:(! Sorry I do love my Red Army rifles but not for a match if I have a 03A3 within arms reach

garandsrus

01-09-2008, 09:57 AM

I would choose either an 03A3 or K-31. Both shoot great....

I am also working up a cast load for a Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55. These shoot great with jacketed and many folks shot them in the bolt match at Perry last summer, including the winner. The sights are pretty good and the recoil is less than any of the .30 cals.

John

B747

01-09-2008, 10:55 AM

oksmle,

Wow --- if those are 100 yd 10 shot groups they are some great groups.

The current CBA National Records for Military Rifle 100 yd 10 shot groups
is 1.697" with Issue Sights and 1.304" with Scope Sights.

Wally

newsmokepole64 .... Following is a list of rifles & 10 shot groups fired in them at our local Military Bolt Action Bench Rest Matches. My overall favorite would probably be the Krag. But now that I have the Mod. 91/30 shooting the way I thought it should it will be used because of the sights. Its barrel length is long enough so that my eyes feel comfortable for the entire match. That's no longer true with any of the others. Each rifle has both won & lost its share of matches. None of them came with a magic load that was an immediate success.

1. 1903 Spgfld - Lyman 311335 - 19.1 grs SR4759 - 0.995"
2. S/C 03-A3 - Lyman 311332 - 18.5 grs SR4759 - 0.743"
3. E/Stone Mod. 1917 - Lyman 311332 - 19.5 grs SR4759 - 0.771"
4. Rem. 03-A3 - Lyman 311667 - 20.0 grs SR4759 - 0.647"
5. Enfld #4Mk1 - Fatter .30 - 19.1 grs SR4759 - 1.111"
6. Enfld #4Mk2 - Fatter .30 - 19.1 grs - SR4759 - 1.001"
7. SMLE - NEI 72 - 23.0 grs 4895 & PSB filler - No Lube - 0.083"
8. Mod. 91/30 - Fatter .30 - 22.0 grs SR4759 - 0.097"
9. Mod. '98 Krag - Lyman 311284 - 19.1 grs SR4759 - 1.000"

oksmle

robertbank

01-09-2008, 11:18 AM

I am dumbstruck. surely you have the mesurements wrong. Your 7th listing is less than the width of the .303 Brit bullet.

Take Care

Bob

Char-Gar

01-09-2008, 12:05 PM

If you take a look at the participants and winners of the military rifle cast bullet matches, held by the Cast Bullet Association, you will find that Springfiield 03A3 dominates the field.

As stated , there are other military rifles that do well with cast bullets, but for serious work, the 03A3 is the pick of the litter. They used to be cheap rifle, but a good one is getting quite pricy these days.

RayinNH

01-09-2008, 12:48 PM

The 19.1 grs. SR4759 seems to be a favorite load. It is with my Krag as well. I suspect it's because the 1.9 CC Lee scoop drops this amount...Ray

oksmle

01-09-2008, 12:52 PM

robertbank.... There are two errors: #7 should be 1.083" & #8 should be 1.097". Sorry, that's what I get for editing my own post.

B747 .... Yes they are 100 yard, 10 shot groups. They are also the best groups I ever fired with those rifles. After you asked, I checked the date on the earliest target fired. It was dated 3/27/79. The most recent was fired this last summer, & it didn't win the "smallest group" string. A lot of years passed & a lot ammo went downrange between the first & last targets. At some time or another, if we send enough rounds downrange, anyone will eventually shoot a "wall-hanger." Usually it occurs when you are alone with no one to witness the target. What I attempted to show in my post was that any one of several different rifles are capable good groups. If I were starting today I would probably get a 91/30& not feel handicapped.
Once again... Sorry about the errors.
oksmle

RU shooter

01-09-2008, 01:41 PM

oksmle,

Wow --- if those are 100 yd 10 shot groups they are some great groups.

The current CBA National Records for Military Rifle 100 yd 10 shot groups
is 1.697" with Issue Sights and 1.304" with Scope Sights.

Wally How is this competition shot? Off bench ? from position? as issued rifles or rifles with modified sighs? anyone have a link so I can stop asking questions?

Calamity Jake

01-09-2008, 01:54 PM

The Rules:http://www.okcgunclub.org/military/mb/rules.html

oksmle

01-09-2008, 01:54 PM

Ru shooter .... Open the below link & go to "Questions."

http://www.tricitygunclub.org/

RayinNH

01-09-2008, 01:57 PM

RU shooter see here:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/pdf/rulesforcomp2006.pdf

Ray

RU shooter

01-09-2008, 02:32 PM

That was quick, Thanks, So all these matches are off of bench ? Heck i guess I aint doing that bad then :-D I'm looking at a target now as I type that close to the score of scoped cat. with K31. I always thought these Military matches were course of fire same as CMP or High Power. Again thanks for the links

B747

01-09-2008, 02:45 PM

RU shooter

01-09-2008, 02:54 PM

RU shooter ---

Note also that in the Military Rifle Scope Class you are limited to a 6X power max scope and that the MR-31 Target is a 5.75" Black Bull you have to quarter.
A different situation then using a 36X Target scope on a small benchrest target.

Wally Yes I saw that scope rule. So What wins the match? actual score on the MR target or smallest 10 rd group or combo of both? If its like HP a tight group dont mean anything unless its in the 10 and X ring .
Also where are these matches held for regional and nationals? sounds like fun Any fellow Western Pa. guys know any places in the area that hold these

garandsrus

01-09-2008, 03:32 PM

RU Shooter,

Many military bolt matches, including the national matches, use the following course of fire:

Up to 5 sighter shots any position
10 slow fire prone
10 rapid fire prone
10 slow fire offhand

Other matches include sitting and 20 slow prone instead of 10.

John

mike in co

01-09-2008, 03:46 PM

ya got to do some searching for local matches.
i run a match at the aurora, co gun club. i stole the rules from the ok shooters.
six or so clubs in ok, at least one in modesto ca.
probably lots of others. think montana has one for cba.

these are all bench matches.

my club also shoots mil position matches for both current and vintage guns.

you can whin at me all you want but standing up, shooting a rifle makes you a target, not a shooter....ouch.( and in my case a waste of good ammo...lol)

why would one ever stand up to the enemy to get off a shot ?

shooting from a bench is "target" shooting.

stepping down from his soap box, donning fire suit.......

mike

oksmle

01-09-2008, 04:01 PM

Everyone please note: The Cast Bullet Matches, CMP Matches & the Military Bolt Action Bench Rest Matches (Oklahoma Style) all operate under different rules.....
When we originally started this particular match in 1996 it was a "position" match. After the last string of "Slow Fire Prone," several of the shooters had trouble getting down & some were unable to get off the ground. We wanted these guys to shoot, so we took a vote & decided right there that the match would be from the bench. Please read the rules as I posted above.
oksmle

B747

01-09-2008, 04:08 PM

RU shooter,
As John pointed out here, there are diferent types of Military Rifle Matches and the one he described even allows Jacketed Bullets -- Gasp :)

CBA Military Rifle Matches are Cast Bullet only --- usually just benchrest, although
some clubs and the Nationals will also have an offhand match.

Most of the Club Cast Bullet Military Rifle Matches are only for score.
The 100 yd MR-31 target has a 0.75" diameter X-Ring and a 1.75" diameter 10-Ring, anything outside of that and you are down at least a point.
The 200 yd MR-52 targets are about double that size.

A Group Match is a separate match and it does not mater where it is on the target – only it's size.

A Regional or National Cast Bullet Military Rifle Match is usually a 2 day Match with
Four 5 shot groups, two 10 shot groups and then two 10 shots for Score --- 100 yd's shot the first day and 200 yd's on the second day.

The Nationals this year are at:
PAUL BUNYAN RIFLE & SPORTSMAN'S CLUB – PUYALLUP, WA
CBA Military Rifle National Tournament:
6-13 (Offhand & Practice), 6-14 100-Yd., 6-15 200-Yd.

Wally

sundog

01-09-2008, 04:27 PM

B747

01-09-2008, 05:53 PM

As far as the ammo goes, I've seen as many, maybe more, of the Oklahoma style match won with boolits than jacketed. Certainly a lot less pounding over the course of 50 record rounds plus sighters.

Ah, but that has to be because of the relative quality of your Jacketed shooters.

A Jacketed shooter has a huge advantage in this game because of wind drift.

At 200 yds a 5mph X-Wind change missed with your average cast bullet load is over 4.5" of drift and will put you out in the 7-Ring muttering what the hell happened.

A Sierra 155gn MatchKing at only 2300 fps (very mild load) drifts only 1.8" with the same wind shift and will stay in the 10-Ring. That's a huge difference.

Wally

Uncle Grinch

01-09-2008, 06:36 PM

Here is our (www.marionroad.com (http://www.marionroad.com)) course of fire for our Vintage Military Rifle Match...

http://www.marionroad.com/articles/article/2866642/41144.htm

mike in co

01-09-2008, 07:33 PM

Mike, son and DIL are PG, so I guess we'll make a trip up your way sometime. They are in Lakewood. Maybe we'll come when you're having a match. I'll bring my gear.

As far as the ammo goes, I've seen as many, maybe more, of the Oklahoma style match won with boolits than jacketed. Certainly a lot less pounding over the course of 50 record rounds plus sighters.

last sunday of the month, 9am start.....two tens for group...three tens for score.....sound familiar ?
start typically april/may....fair weather shooters......go to oct.

mike

sundog

01-09-2008, 08:18 PM

B747, understand. What I was referring to was the Okie style at 100 yards. Most of the time, there is really no advantage, especially for score.

405

01-09-2008, 11:33 PM

My range has a millitary rifle match once a month. been thincking of getting a rifle and going to it. I was wondering which bolt action rifles have had good accuracy with cast?

The thread is kinda wandering but I'll agree with others about the 03-A3 as being a top contender... albeit those in top condition are getting pricey. Some beaters out there that were re-barreled late so have near pristine bores.... but may be less expensive because of outward appearance.... would be perfect for competition. That bore is everything in cast bullet shooting:)

robertbank

01-10-2008, 10:09 AM

Where does the K 31 fit in all of this? I have heard the rifle is extremely accurate but have no personal experience.

Take Care

Bob

Oldeyes

01-10-2008, 12:46 PM

There's a certain satisfaction in walking downrange and being able to see the holes in your target when you've only gone halfway..... I'm a fan of the older milsurps with the big bores. 43 Mauser is an accurate cartridge in a good 71/84 and I managed to win one of our local matches with mine. Also won one w/ a M1867 Werndl rechambered to 43 Mauser. Hmmm, 42 Russian Berdan does well too, and 41 Swiss :)

The sights are the issue with these old beasts...

robertbank

01-10-2008, 07:40 PM

"The sights are the issue with these old beasts..."

Thank god! I thought my eyes were going south.:mrgreen:

Take Care

Bob

NSP64

01-10-2008, 09:49 PM

local gunshop had a K-31 and a 98 in 8mm. the k-31 was in great shape(only dropped once[smilie=1:) The 98 felt better when shouldered. they didn't have a 91/30 to play with. the 8mm may be easier to find molds and other reloading supplies VS the 7.5 swiss. big gunshow this weekend and will go see what they have.

garandsrus

01-10-2008, 10:22 PM

Newsmokepole64,

The 7.5 is takes a standard .30 Cal boolit so you can find any number of molds that work great.... I size my boolits to .310 for the 7.5x55 with very good results.

8mm molds are a lot more scarce.

John

NSP64

01-10-2008, 10:39 PM

I thought I saw somewhere it takes a .318 boolit? The bolt is odd being a push/pull, have you ever had feed problems? a standard bolt has good leverage.I do like the idea of a detachable box mag.

beemer

01-10-2008, 10:52 PM

Reloadable brass for the K31 is hard to find, sometimes Graf has it. The 284 Win. brass can be used to form 7.5 Swiss. The K31 uses .308 dia bullets but the bore is usually tight and the throat short. Brass needs to be full lenght sized for the round to feed properly.They can be fussy to load for till you figure it out. There has been a lot of cussing and discussing about the best dies for the 7.5 but Redding works best for me. It is a different kind of rifle but I still like to tinker with it.

The 8mm is in my opinion(for what thats worth) a good round. It is not hard to load and what can beat a good Mauser action. The selection of moulds is small but most work well. The only draw back is the already mentioned sights. I have a 48 that does very well with cast and j- word bullets.

beemer

jhrosier

01-10-2008, 11:09 PM

I thought I saw somewhere it takes a .318 boolit? The bolt is odd being a push/pull, have you ever had feed problems? a standard bolt has good leverage.I do like the idea of a detachable box mag.

newsmokepole64,
The 7.5x55mm uses standard .308 jacketd bullets. The throats are short but this is not a problem once you are aware. The cases need to be full length sized and the bullets seated to chamber with no resistance.
I have used the 31141 cast from lino, with LLA, not sized, and got 1" groups @ 50yds with no trouble.
They feed from the magazine without any problem. I belive that you can get Privi ammo and brass fairly cheap for the Swiss rifles. I was quoted $40/100 for brass a couple months ago.

Jack

35 Whelen

01-11-2008, 01:09 AM

I thought I saw somewhere it takes a .318 boolit? The bolt is odd being a push/pull, have you ever had feed problems? a standard bolt has good leverage.I do like the idea of a detachable box mag.

I own five K-31's. They are SWEET! Incredibly accurate. For brass, I bought loaded Priv ammo from AIM Surplus for $10.95 per 20 and enjoyed the stuff for the brass. I've fired a couple of High Power matches with my modified K-31 and the push/pull action is very, very fast.
BUT, my favorite bolt rifle for cast bullets is my No.4 Enfield (named "Whitney")mostly because of the sights. I modified one of the micrometer sights so that it would accept a screw in aperture and it's the cats behind. Killed a deer with Whitney a few days ago using a Fat 30 bullet.
35W

mike in co

01-11-2008, 02:39 AM

Reloadable brass for the K31 is hard to find, sometimes Graf has it. The 284 Win. brass can be used to form 7.5 Swiss. The K31 uses .308 dia bullets but the bore is usually tight and the throat short. Brass needs to be full lenght sized for the round to feed properly.They can be fussy to load for till you figure it out. There has been a lot of cussing and discussing about the best dies for the 7.5 but Redding works best for me. It is a different kind of rifle but I still like to tinker with it.

beemer

i own and shoot three k-31's...j word and cast( still woking on both), but i have yet to full lenth resize any brass for any of my k-31's. yes the redding die is the correct die for the rifle, but i neck size about 1/2 way down the neck, which in turn just touches the base of the case. thats all....seat the bullets for the very short throat, and they chamber fine.

mike in co

Boz330

01-11-2008, 10:21 AM

i own and shoot three k-31's...j word and cast( still woking on both), but i have yet to full lenth resize any brass for any of my k-31's. yes the redding die is the correct die for the rifle, but i neck size about 1/2 way down the neck, which in turn just touches the base of the case. thats all....seat the bullets for the very short throat, and they chamber fine.

mike in co

Me to, except I use one of the Lee neck size dies and have not had a problem.
For cast I use the 311466 150gr Loverign and 4759 shows the most promise at just over 2 inches and I really haven't tried many different loads. With Jacketed I've tried a 130 and 150 and got just over MOA with the first loads I tried. One group was sub MOA out of a buddies rifle. It seems that these rifles just want to shoot. The sights suck for my eyes though. After the K-31 I like my #4 although I haven't gotten that good of a group out of it yet. All of these are at 100 yd and 10 shot groups. IMHO closer isn't that good of a test and sometimes doesn't show as well at distance.

Bob

beemer

01-11-2008, 02:22 PM

Mike
I have used your method of sizing for cast loads but have had problems with full power loads after a few shots. I have just had less problems full length sizing for these rifles. I have two and the chambers are very close so I use one die setting for both. The Redding dies work the brass very little and is better than anything I have found.

beemer

Ricochet

01-11-2008, 08:32 PM

I've been neck sizing for the K-31 and haven't gotten around to needing any full length sizing yet. I don't think any of my cases have been loaded more than 5-6 times yet. Most of my loads have been rather moderate pressure 7383 charges with cast boolits.

garandsrus

01-11-2008, 10:01 PM

Newsmokepole64,

As other folks have added, the throat on a K-31 is short. Looking at the Lyman molds, I always though that 311413 would be a great boolit for the K-31 since it has a very short nose section. I bought the mold and it does shoot well through my K-31. Several other boolits shoot well also!

Feeding isn't a problem at all. In addition to the magazine, the K-31 takes a stripper clip, although it looks a little funny... I think that most folks use the stripper clip to reload as it works very nicely.

I don't know the current prices, but when K-31's were $100, extra magazines were $50!

The bolt works well but you can't get the leverage you can on a turn bolt, which is why the case sizing matters more than some other rifles. It really isn't a problem though as you can test the rounds as you are setting your sizing and seating dies.

Here's a nice sight about K-31 (http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/forums/73/t/The-Straight-pull-Rifle-Forum.html)'s

I am going to shoot the Vintage Bolt match at Perry next summer and will be shooting either a K-31 or Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55.

John

Ricochet

01-12-2008, 01:09 AM

Because the throat is short and the bore diameter is small, the ideal K-31 boolit has a short body (so as not to extend too far below the bottom of the neck) and a long bore rider nose that starts right in front of the case mouth and is skinny enough to push easily in between the lands. (.296" bore diameter on mine.) The Lee C309-200-R would be PERFECT if it only had a nose diameter of .298" or so. Mine's a bit fat.