Has RotoMetals changed?

[45bpcr]

I'm looking for some input here about RotoMetals.
I've been using them for years and have been satisfied, but with my latest order the ingots are different shapes and color. The "New" ingot is on the left.
The pics will explain alot.
When casting even after heavy fluxing the melt still has a clumpy texture and will "sheet" much like maple syrup when it's nearly ready.
It will coat my ladle with the same clumpy clinginy stuff.
The bullets cast ok but are the same greyish color instead of silver.
The alloys I use are 16-1 and 20-1. I cast at 680°. I don't own a hardness tester so I can't comment on that aspect.
Bullet weight is nearly the same at 1 grain lighter. It's a 400 grain Money bullet and I sort to 1/2 a grain for competition.

The ONLY thing different in my casting is the alloy I bought this year.

Please look at the pictures.

45bpcr

104188
104189
104190
104191

[Petrol & Powder]

The last time I purchased lead from Rotometals I received the same style of ingot (notched) along with the old style (flat) . I've used a few of the notched ones and they seemed to melt/cast the same as the olds ones. That color does seem a bit odd.

[lwknight]

That stuff in the pot looks exactly like the superhard without any tin added.

What is the alloy supposed to be?

I would test it. I would bet that they accidentally sent you the wrong stuff.

[45bpcr]

All the ingots are stamped 20-1 or 16-1.
But the notched ingots behave like the pictures while the solid ingots don't.

45bpcr

[popper]

Yes they changed, sell by ingot which is much lighter now. Kind of like the Oreos I get now, same package, less product. Looks like a Sb/Pb mix to me, run it @ 720 to see if it smoothes out.

[guicksylver]

This may sound crazy BUT do you use a thermometer or do you use the dial setting?

I have the same pot and through the years I've found that I had to continuously turn the dial up to achieve good results.

Eventually I bought a thermometer and discovered that my dial was off by 150 degrees !

So all the alloy I was having trouble with act perfectly normal now when using the Ther.

Check it out.

Hope this helps .

Dan S.

[captaint]

Either that alloy is not hot enough - or there's something else in there. My .02 Mike

[45bpcr]

Ok, let me back pedal a bit here.
I've used Rotometals for a long time and the only alloy I buy from them is pure lead for my Gibbs muzzle loader and PP bullets, 16 and 20-1 for my BPCR rifles.
When I started competing I started using much more of the 16 and 20-1.
In 2012 I used 550 lbs. and in 2013 another 350 lbs.
I've always cast my bullets at under 700° as I get good consistency and good fill out, plus the lower temp let's me cast faster with out over heating the molds, and yes, I do use a thermometer.
I hold my bullets to +/- 1/2 grain and weigh/ sort them.
I flux with ceder dust made from pet shavings as it works great and smells great here in the shop.
I obviously ladle pour.

Plus, the bullets fall from the molds and look nice and shiny :-)

In my 45-90 I use a Paul Jones #450 Creedmore, a BACO Postell and a Lyman 457125 ( for chickens )
For my wifes 40-65 I use a BACO 409400M4 Money bullet for everything.

Hence my post.

This was my first 100 lb order from Rotometals this year.
I immediately noticed the color of the ingots was off and the new shape of them.
I didn't think or care to much about the shape of them.
I melted some down and cast with it.
Doing everything exactly the same as I've always done it, the bullets are a dull grey and a tad lighter, like a grain or two, and the melt is a gloopy, sticky mess.
Weights vary quite a bit, for instance on the 400 grain $ bullet I get a low of 398 and a high of 415.
I'm thinking I got a bad batch.
I'll probably order again and get the minimum order, just to see.

45bpcr

Oh, and Mike, Will I see you at Ridgway this year?

[gtgeorge]

It would be nice to be able to get that analyzed to see what you ended up with. From my experience good clean foundry lead will be nice shiny silvery bullets with the alloys you work with so I am pretty sure something is not right with what you received.

[lwknight]

My money is on "Superhard"
If it turns out that it really is then you got a bargain.
If you have no use for it then you can resell it at a small profit easily.

[madsenshooter]

I was just back in the backroom playing with some copper enriched alloy, the oxides stick to my ladle like the OP has pictured. It would likely be worse at his temp, but I cast a bit above 700.

[MaryB]

Gray color looks like foundry type or linotype almost...

[GLL]

Contact Rotometals with all of this information + photos!
Ask if you can send a sample disc to have them run it through their XRF to confirm the composition (at their expense).

Make sure to mention how much you have been buying from them over the past couple years !

Jerry

[rbertalotto]

Wow! Exactly the same situation I ran into tonight. I couldn't get the new style 20-1alloy to cast at all. Your descriptions are exactly what I experienced. I'm going to call Rotor on Monday.

[Moonman]

A processing error was possibly made, things do happen you understand.

Contact Roto-Metals, I'm sure they would be interested.

Have all info ready that they could possibly work backwards with, order/sale/delivery dates.

WHAT WAS ordered, your photos of what was received, etc.

Good Luck, if the HIGHER TEMPERATURE DOESN'T CLEAN IT UP.

[rbertalotto]

I just sent the following email to Roto Metals:

Recently I received a shipment of 20-1 alloy. I’m a longtime user of Roto Metals and have never had an issue. I only cast with Roto Metal alloys as I trust your product and don’t want to put an untrusted product down my expensive match barrels. There is a major problem with this shipment as it simply will not cast proper bullets. It will not fill out the mold.

I switched to the 20-1 alloy I previously purchased and the bullets formed beautifully.

I did a search on the internet and I found another fellow experiencing the exact same problem. I too had the crud continuously forming in the melt and the consistency of maple syrup. My ingots were also the new shape as in this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?240881-Has-RotoMetals-changed

The bars of lead are different in shape and appearance. The new bars are segmented where the old style was a single bar of alloy. The new bars have a cloudy, dull appearance where the old bars were shiny like a bar of silver.
When casting even after heavy fluxing the melt has a clumpy texture with lots of impurities in the dross .
It does not pour freely from my bottom pour pot no matter how large I set the orifice.
It will coat my ladle and stirring stick with the same clumpy clinging stuff.
The bullets do not fill out the mold and have the same cloudy grey color instead of shiny silver. I tried three molds, iron, brass and aluminum.
The alloys I use is 20-1. I tried casting from 675 to 725°. I don't own a hardness tester so I can't comment on that aspect, but the spew is brittle and easily breaks into pieces.
The ONLY thing different in my casting is the alloy I recently bought.



I sure hope you are aware of this as I want to order more alloy but I simply can not use this type of product.

Please advise

[tomme boy]

Lead coming from China??????

[rbertalotto]

Roto Metals Response:

I sent an email to Roto Metals last night about some bad alloy I recently received. This morning (Saturday) here is their response:

Hi Roy. Sorry about this those ingots came from our sister factory and looks like they messed up the alloy or stamped the wrong ingots. What is your order number and I'll send you a new order from the original bars. I'll also email you a return label Monday if you can send back just one ingot I can test it and see what is wrong with it


Thank
Ryan


Now THAT'S the kind of company I like to deal with! They will have my lead business forever!

Here is the email I sent them:

Recently I received a shipment of 20-1 alloy. I’m a longtime user of Roto Metals and have never had an issue. I only cast with Roto Metal alloys as I trust your product and don’t want to put an untrusted product down my expensive match barrels. There is a major problem with this shipment as it simply will not cast proper bullets. It will not fill out the mold.

I switched to the 20-1 alloy I previously purchased and the bullets formed beautifully.

I did a search on the internet and I found another fellow experiencing the exact same problem. I too had the crud continuously forming in the melt and the consistency of maple syrup. My ingots were also the new shape as in this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?240881-Has-RotoMetals-changed

The bars of lead are different in shape and appearance. The new bars are segmented where the old style was a single bar of alloy. The new bars have a cloudy, dull appearance where the old bars were shiny like a bar of silver.
When casting even after heavy fluxing the melt has a clumpy texture with lots of impurities in the dross .
It does not pour freely from my bottom pour pot no matter how large I set the orifice.
It will coat my ladle and stirring stick with the same clumpy clinging stuff.
The bullets do not fill out the mold and have the same cloudy grey color instead of shiny silver. I tried three molds, iron, brass and aluminum.
The alloys I use is 20-1. I tried casting from 675 to 725°. I don't own a hardness tester so I can't comment on that aspect, but the spew is brittle and easily breaks into pieces.
The ONLY thing different in my casting is the alloy I recently bought.

Here is a reprint of the thread on Castboolits web forum from another fellow with the identical issues

I sure hope you are aware of this as I want to order more alloy but I simply can not use this type of product.

Please advise

[jmort]

I have spoken with Ryan. RotoMetals is a stand-up operation. Good people

[rbertalotto]

Received a 70 pound box of the proper alloy today. I was told to keep the other alloy and to send one bar back to them so they could let me know what it was.

It might be useful to mix with something else to make it usable.

BTW, all of this took less than three business days.....from California to Massachusetts!

NOW THAT'S CUSTOMER SERVICE!

[rbertalotto]

This email just received from Roto Metals:

Hi Roy,


Just got back the ingot and the small melted piece
The ingot actually tested spot on at 5.06% tin 94.94 Lead

The piece you sent that was melted was 1% copper 5% tin 2.3 % antimony rest lead

Looks like the pot was contaminated from another ingot from somewhere else and somehow got in there


None of our bullet alloys contain copper which really makes the alloy act weird like your pictures

If you still don't want the rest of the original ingots, let me know and I can email you another Medium flat rate box to return those.


Thanks
Ryan

I replied:

Interesting….

I have three pots. An older Lyman and two new Lee 20s. The Lee pots have never seen anything but Roto Metals 20-1. Have no idea where the copper came from.

Yes, send me a box and I’ll send the rest of the ingots back as thet have no use for me.

Thanks again!