PaperPatch in Knight 45 Disc Failure with BH209

[Themoose]

I tried my second round of shooting paperpatched bullets in my Knight Disc 45. The first round went very well using Idahoron's bullet loaded with Pyrodex P. I have been spoiled by BlackHorn 209 and took that to the range for the day's test... Could not ignite the powder... went thru 6 209 primers and had same result... pulled breech plug and removed charge and bullet... The rifle was squeaky clean after last session with pyrodex and I fired 3 primers thru the rifle before loading with BH209. After removing the plug I could see that the vent hole was clear and open. I previously owned a 50 Knight Disc that would not shoot BH209 consistently with the bullets that I had as the bullet fit was loose and apparently didn't compress the charge enough for reliable ignition... but it at least ignited and sputtered and smoked...


Thinking usually gets me into trouble, but I think the issue with the 45 is similar to the 50 and that there was not enough compression for the ignition. Anyone else experience the same issue? I was using CCI primers which are supposed to be hot. I do like the idea of paperpatched bullets and would love to get them to work with BH209. One other possible solution I have is to switch breech plugs. I do have a "powerstem" breech plug I could try that extends into the breech to deliver the spark to the center of the powder charge.

Experience is a great teacher and I am hoping to see some lessons learned from other readers who went down this path before.

Kindest regards,

TheMoose

[johnson1942]

find a breech plug that works and then you can move on to all the shooting you want with paperpatch and 209 powder. if you cant find one store made, have one made. cant be rocket science. i didnt know that 209 powder is that had to set off with even a shotgun primer ignition. i have several side locls with 209 mag spark nipples and every on is instant with 209 powder.

[rsrocket1]

Hopefully you were using CCI 209M primers (Magnum). The standard CCI 209 primers are amonst the coolest domestic primers around. The important thing about using 209 primers and BH209 is that you must have a snug fit all around, especially with the primer. If you are getting blowback anywhere (soot) around the breech or scorch marks on your scope, you must seal that off. There are breechplugs that have little pockets where the BH209 can sit closer to the flash hole, but a good seal works wonders.

I use Winchester 209, CCI209M and Federal 209A primers and get 100% ignition with Blackhorn 209 in my CVA Optima Pro (old style hex breech plug, unmodified). I do have a thin #4 washer in the primer pocket to ensure a very firm fit between the primer and the firing pin bushing. Don't make it a crush fit or you risk setting the primer off when you close the gun. A snug or even interference fit will work best. I've had a session shooting 32 shots of BH209 and never cleaned the breech plug. After the session, I could still see daylight through the flash hole even though cleaning it out with a 7/64" drill bit, the drill bit channels are filled with soot.

[OverMax]

Agree. Winchester & CCI-mag are sure fire. But Federal 209-A is the hottest of the three.

[idahoron]

Did you see if you could wrap the naked ones and load them without sizing? Ron

[Themoose]

Range Update:

Switched Breech Plugs, Used Fed 209A primers... cannot load unsized paper patched bullets... failure to fire with both breech plugs on Knight Disc 45... Next attempt will try sizing paper patched bullet thru .451 or .452 sizer...

On the positive side: Tried shooting paperpatched bullets in .45 caplock I built from parts... used BH209, sized paperpatched bullets from Idahoron, MagSpark 209 adapter and Federal 209A.... fired on both tries... Time didn't allow more shooting... will try later to see how accuracy is... only negative I saw with the latter rig was that the primers didn't want to come free from the MagSpark after firing... I used knife blade to separate them... not a problem on the bench, but a problem in the hunting woods...

Thanks to all for their help


TheMoose

[johnson1942]

when you put your mag spark cap on dont put it down quite all the way. i tighten mine down then back off a little. this way the primer leaves you a little exposed lip to pull on. i also have a tiny good pliers and i always use them to pull the primers out of magspark nipples. i also put a little spit on top of the primer before i put the cap on. this method usually works all the time to remove primers.

[Themoose]

Success Finally!

May be way too soon to claim success, but I got the Knight to fire every time today with BH209. I did some things differently that may have been key to the improved ignition.
1. Changed out breech plugs and replaced vent liner
2. Used Federal 209A primers
3. Did not use any wad, loaded patched bullet directly on top of powder
4. Swapped out bolts, one used today seemed more snug with 209 conversion adapter.
5. Seated bullets with more pressure than normal.

I also tried a duplex load suggested to a unnamed contributor(to protect him from nay-sayers) using a small amount of Pyrodex P followed by the charge of BH209. It did work well... but I would prefer to keep things as simple as possible for a hunting rifle.

The wind was picking up with a storm coming in, but I did place 4 shots in less than 2" @ 100 yds from a rest.... plenty good enough for a woods rifle. I will try some serious bench sessions to get an idea of what charge works best.

I also fired some more loads in the .45 caplock with a Green Mountain 1:28 twist I put together from parts... I have a heck of a time seeing the sights clearly, but it shoots right on @50 yds... will have to work on that one after I figure out the Knight.

Thanks to all who helped... and special thanks to Idahoron and Johnson1942 for their coaching,

TheMoose

[johnson1942]

glad to hear you haveing fun and hitting the mark. it will get better and better.

[idahoron]

Glad to help. Ron

[Themoose]

Today was the first chance I had to go the the range and use the Knight 45 Disc with bullets that I cast from the 11MM RCBS mold...I am still trying to get BH209 to work... and work it did. I started off with 5 shot groups with Cheddite and Federal 209A for primers... The Knight has always needed attention in getting the fired primers to fall out from the bare primer conversion...a had a brief "AHaaaa!" moment; finding that the Cheddite primers not only set off the charge each time, but actually fell out as I worked the bolt to the open position... but, then I noticed something different.... the primers were not staying intact... some had the face(the part the firing pin hits) missing when ejected.... then my bolt was hard to close... I removed the bolt and found small pieces from the primers interfering with the bolt and sear... problem got worse as I worked up loads in 5 grain increments... I found that my particular rifle liked the hotter loads... I shot 70,75 and 80 grain loads...the best was 80 grains with the Federal 209A primers... The first shot was an inch to the right of the bull and the following four shots were centered in the bull... I used the On Target system to measure the group.. five shots were 1.425 MOA and averaged .508" to center... If I removed the "flier" the four shot group measured 0.628 MOA with a 0.231" to center...
I would be glad to shoot that group anyday...

Thanks again to all who have helped me.. I genuinely appreciate it... special thanks again to idahoron and johnson1942 for their encouragement and advice.

Kindest regards,

TheMoose