Reduced 44 MAG, 320 grain loads

[DonMountain]

I apologize to everyone for asking the original question. Sorry.

[44man]

That is too much for a 320 gr. Go to 21.5 gr for better accuracy, still a super deer killer.
It is hard to turn the heavy weights into plinkers, they need spin and the 320 needs about 1316 fps.
You can try HS 6 but I don't think accuracy will be as good.
I never found a way to shoot them slow. 21.5 is a magic number and I use a Fed 150 primer only.
They don't like faster either.

[High Desert Hunter]

I get excellent accuracy from HS6 with a 315gr bullet in Starline 44 Mag cases and Winchester Large Pistol Primers. Very easy to shoot loaded from 900 to 1000 FPS.

[Salmoneye]

How exactly are you getting 26gr of H110 into the case with the 320gr cast?

[shorty500M]

How exactly are you getting 26gr of H110 into the case with the 320gr cast?

not exactly going to recommend it but there are a few molds on market that seat to such a great length that 24 to 26g will fit. many years ago in the mid-80's mickey fowler promoted 26g under the old JDJ design for use in the Redhawk. still have a copy of old G&A article where that load was rested in a FA m83 with 7-1/2 tube. velocity was in 1550fps area as i recall.

[C. Latch]

I'd go to a lighter bullet at slower speeds; you might even be able to get a load that matches POI with your 'heavy' load - and that is a HEAVY load. Ouch!

[DonMountain]

How exactly are you getting 26gr of H110 into the case with the 320gr cast?

The mold was made by some guy named Veral about 20 years ago or more, and was recommended by a friend. It seats way out in the cylinder, almost to the front of the cylinder, leaving room for 26 grains of H110. I was afraid to shoot them in warm weather, and they chronoed at 1600 fps from a 7.5" barrel. But they are a handful to shoot. That's why I was looking for a lesser load for target practice. The boolit is a Wide Flat Nose with gas check and shoots very well. Killed several deer with it and that load. With a 4x Leupold scope and special grips I didn't think it shot too bad back in my younger days. Now I have drifted to shooting the 38 S&W more often, but I am not sure I could kill a deer with that.

[C. Latch]

It seats way out in the cylinder, almost to the front of the cylinder, leaving room for 26 grains of H110. I was afraid to shoot them in warm weather, and they chronoed at 1600 fps from a 7.5" barrel.

A 320-grain bullet at 1600' from a 7.5" barrel is well past .44 pressures and well into .454 Casull territory, and I'd be very surprised if it made less than 50K pressure. I think 38k is the accepted .44 Mag ceiling.

I have -0- doubt that your Ruger will handle such a load, but at those levels you've long left sane pressures in the past and without a doubt you are slowly wearing out your revolver.

[44man]

You have left accuracy at the back door. I have shot many of Veral's boolits myself and 21.5 is IT.
The .44 just does NOT need such velocities for ANYTHING. Get out of the books and get sane.
I have several tons of deer shot with the .44 and that load is NOT needed and really is so fast it will lose deer with a hard boolit.
I also read the heavy boolit junk and they are wrong, turning a great gun into something it is not or trying to make it better. Can't be done. I know the .44 like the back of my hand, you are doing wrong.
Many have given you great responses. Please listen.

[EdS]

With no disrespect intended, I have to say that my 240gr. cast .44 Mag. load that leaves the muzzle at about 1100 fps penetrates completely through deer from any reasonable angle. I too have experimented with 320 gr. boolits, but have trouble keeping them from creeping forward, even using new Starline brass and a heavy roll crimp - with loads much below yours. The heavy .44 boolits penetrate by their mass, and IMHO don't really need excessive velocity to do the job. But, you asked about reduced, practice loads so I'll suggest something like 9 gr. of Unique behind the 320, with WLP primers. -Ed

[Seancass]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around 320gr at 1600fps out of a 44 pistol. Sounds fun, but not in a 6-shot ruger!

This isn't a knock on you, but I'm curious where you found the load data? You're just SO far beyond the normal loading range! I found 318gr over 21gr H110 at 1350fps down a 10inch tube running 44,000psi. Where does that put your load!? 60,000?? 75,000?

[44man]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around 320gr at 1600fps out of a 44 pistol. Sounds fun, but not in a 6-shot ruger!

This isn't a knock on you, but I'm curious where you found the load data? You're just SO far beyond the normal loading range! I found 318gr over 21gr H110 at 1350fps down a 10inch tube running 44,000psi. Where does that put your load!? 60,000?? 75,000?
Yeah, right. 26 gr behind a 320 gr is NUTS. I figure it is the same old junk where velocity kills better with the same boolit

[DonMountain]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around 320gr at 1600fps out of a 44 pistol. Sounds fun, but not in a 6-shot ruger!

This isn't a knock on you, but I'm curious where you found the load data? You're just SO far beyond the normal loading range! I found 318gr over 21gr H110 at 1350fps down a 10inch tube running 44,000psi. Where does that put your load!? 60,000?? 75,000?

After reading all of this I have come to the conclusion that I need to take these old heavy boolit loads apart and put less powder back in them. I loaded these maybe 15 years ago and have used them off-and-on for all of this time shooting deer in the dead of winter. But gravitated to using an old rifle and boolits after getting beat up with the Ruger. So I think I will strip all of these loaded rounds down (there are only a couple dozen left) and start over. I am not even sure where I got the loads for them. I can't find the source anymore. So, I guess I will get out my Lyman's #3 lead boolit handbook and look at some lighter loads. And maybe get a lighter boolit mold. I did find some 240 grain boolits with no gas checks that a friend gave to me from one of his molds after I had lent him my 320 grain mold awhile back. So I ran them through the lube-sizer last night and will look up some light loads for those. Thanks everybody for your help here.

[DonMountain]

Yeah, right. 26 gr behind a 320 gr is NUTS. I figure it is the same old junk where velocity kills better with the same boolit

Well, my experience is that large boolits at a fast velocity always kill better. I used to kill deer in the soy bean fields with a 22 long rifle and hardly ever got a good, clean kill. After discovering that 44 Mag Ruger that I could strap on while working in the fields on a tractor, often I could kill two or three deer cleanly with one shot. You can't tell me that heavy and fast doesn't kill. And its hard to get a second shot off at 50 or 60 deer when they start running.

[454PB]

The Lee 320 FN in front of 13 grains of BlueDot yields 1150 fps. in my Ruger RH and is very accurate.

Rugers will take insane pressures, but your recipe is scary.

[osteodoc08]

Hodgdon lists 20.8gr 296 as max with a 330gr boolit

Hodgdon lists 22gr 296 as max with a 325gr boolit

Hodgdon lists 19gr 296 with a 300gr XTP.

26gr H110 seems a little on the much side. May want to look over your notes again or rethink your loading. I would load 30gr of 296 with a 300gr boolit in my 454C and I was getting 1500+fps.

[osteodoc08]

To answer your question of plinking, you can always use Trailboss, but velocity with that much weight would be too slow to stabilize that boolit. I'd look in the 220-240gr weight class and shoot at moderate velocity ala 44 special loadings.

[Groo]

Groo here
When I was much younger I was in HHI.
Got all the "ramslammer" molds and shot them. Hit steel like sledgehammers.
Went hunting with the 44 320gr bullet and the "JD" load [ 21.5 gr 296/h110]
Shoots great but the deer did not go down like WE wanted . hit 5 times all in the kill zone .
I called JD to ask " what did I do wrong?????"
He said , that load is used on elephant and will go through the skull sideways.
It will pass through deer so fast they will hardly notice.
JD said 220 to 250 gr is all that you need for deer.

[DonMountain]

Groo here
When I was much younger I was in HHI.
Got all the "ramslammer" molds and shot them. Hit steel like sledgehammers.
Went hunting with the 44 320gr bullet and the "JD" load [ 21.5 gr 296/h110]
Shoots great but the deer did not go down like WE wanted . hit 5 times all in the kill zone .
I called JD to ask " what did I do wrong?????"
He said , that load is used on elephant and will go through the skull sideways.
It will pass through deer so fast they will hardly notice.
JD said 220 to 250 gr is all that you need for deer.

What do all the abreviations above mean? And could all of you suggest a new boolet mold for me to use for plinking/target shooting? I prefer gas check boolits.

[DonMountain]

The Lee 320 FN in front of 13 grains of BlueDot yields 1150 fps. in my Ruger RH and is very accurate.

Rugers will take insane pressures, but your recipe is scary.

This looks like a good one for me to try. I have the boolits and the BlueDot powder that I use for shooting 300 grain boolits out of my 45 ACP 1917 revolver.

[osteodoc08]

For a plinker load, I'd avoid any GC designs and go straight for a PB design. PB, for me, has been good up to 1400-1500 FPS when using a good lube and proper fit. Plinking loads are considerably slower. For the time and cost, do yourself a favor and get a PB style mold in a light to average weight.

[44man]

I use heavy in the .44 for deer, the LBT 320 and Lee 310 work great. MY home made is 330 gr.
The .44 is just right for velocity and the 420 gr in the .475 can't be beat with 99% of deer dropping at the shot.
However my 440 gr from the .500 JRH at the same velocity will pass through deer like they are paper. So does my 45-70 even with a WFN. Those two calibers need some expansion. Either too fast or heavy. I use the same alloy in all the guns but it is wrong for some. A few need softer noses without changing the drive bands.
The .44 has all that is needed but it does not need shot to extremes. It is like turning a Colt into a .454. The .454 needs expansion for hunting deer or it is a hole punch, way too fast with hard cast.

[Shuz]

DonMountain--The "JD" refered to in Post#18 is JD Jones, the owner/honcho of the SSK company. IIRC SSK has a whole bunch of proprietary cartridges that are mostly chambered in Thomson Center firearms. The mould company NEI, was once, and may still be, the only source for JD Jones SSK designed boolits.

[seaboltm]

I loaded a 310 grain bullet with H110 going from 19 grains to 22.5 grains in .5 grain increments. 19 grains yielded 1134fps. 22.5 grains yielded 1328 fps, with flattened primers. This was from a 7.5 inch super redhawk. I did not check for accuracy, but determined 21.5 grains of H110 was a good max. For plinking I prefer a 240 grain SWC Lee TL over a charge of 9.7 grains of unique. A 320 grain bullet is a bit much for plinking, and 26 grains of H110 has to be showing pressure signs.

[DonMountain]

I use heavy in the .44 for deer, the LBT 320 and Lee 310 work great. MY home made is 330 gr.
The .44 is just right for velocity and the 420 gr in the .475 can't be beat with 99% of deer dropping at the shot.
However my 440 gr from the .500 JRH at the same velocity will pass through deer like they are paper. So does my 45-70 even with a WFN. Those two calibers need some expansion. Either too fast or heavy. I use the same alloy in all the guns but it is wrong for some. A few need softer noses without changing the drive bands.
The .44 has all that is needed but it does not need shot to extremes. It is like turning a Colt into a .454. The .454 needs expansion for hunting deer or it is a hole punch, way too fast with hard cast.

This looks kind of funny and completely opposite from our experiences here on the farm. We generally kill 15 or 20 deer each year in the soybean fields and family members eat all of them. The least usable firearm we tried for serious deer hunting was the 243 rifle with J-bullets.
The bigger and faster the boolits the less the deer would move when hit. We never didn't get a deer down and dead with either the 45-70 using black powder and 500 grain boolits or the 44 Mag with the 320 grain boolits. They are both killers on the spot and no tracking needed. But all the deer hit had plenty of blood trail for the few steps back they took. The smaller calibers on the other hand have required some tracking at times. The 8 mm Mauser shooting 220 grains is pretty good as are the 180 grain boolits in the 30 calibers. And they all go completely through a deer and leave a good blood trail. But the 44's and 45's always knock them down and dead on the spot. So higher velocity in the 44 Mag just allowed a longer shot with a scoped handgun.

[44man]

This looks kind of funny and completely opposite from our experiences here on the farm. We generally kill 15 or 20 deer each year in the soybean fields and family members eat all of them. The least usable firearm we tried for serious deer hunting was the 243 rifle with J-bullets.
The bigger and faster the boolits the less the deer would move when hit. We never didn't get a deer down and dead with either the 45-70 using black powder and 500 grain boolits or the 44 Mag with the 320 grain boolits. They are both killers on the spot and no tracking needed. But all the deer hit had plenty of blood trail for the few steps back they took. The smaller calibers on the other hand have required some tracking at times. The 8 mm Mauser shooting 220 grains is pretty good as are the 180 grain boolits in the 30 calibers. And they all go completely through a deer and leave a good blood trail. But the 44's and 45's always knock them down and dead on the spot. So higher velocity in the 44 Mag just allowed a longer shot with a scoped handgun.
It is the alloy only. But distance when the boolit has slowed will also bring it in. The 45-70 rifle uses an expanding bullet or softer lead. Nothing has beat my .54 hawken with a pure round ball yet but the .475 is close.
A few seasons back I shot a doe at about 20 yards with the hard cast from the JRH. I could not find her or any blood. Then a buck came out at 120 yards, I busted him behind the shoulder, he ran to me 100 yards and turned into the woods 20 yards and dropped. It got dark after gutting and I seen white with my light, It was the first deer. Backtracking the buck showed no blood trail at all and none from the doe.
None of these revolver boolits can be compared with rifle bullets.
Deer shot with the .44 never make over 30 yards and there is a huge blood trail. It is an apples to oranges thing.
I helped a guy drag a small deer out in PA. He was using 180 gr Silvertips in an 06. The deer had 6 holes in it. He tracked it in the snow and kept shooting until it died. I could cover 6 holes with my hand. Wrong bullet for deer. I told him to use 150 to 165 gr instead and the ballistic tip will dump deer but meat damage will be huge.
I want all the meat, not a red mist and don't think a revolver can't make a mist with a destroyed deer. It is a balance I seek. I know darn well what a soft boolit or hollow point will do but that can be too much. then accuracy is first anyway, does no good to miss or cripple.
I know for a fact that 26 gr behind your boolit has no accuracy so if you tell me you shoot deer at 150 yards +, You know what I will say. Knock the load down and I bet 100 yard groups are better then you get at 25.
Notice how many also use 21.5 gr? I don't think I could hit an elephant with 26 gr.

[DonMountain]

It is the alloy only. But distance when the boolit has slowed will also bring it in. The 45-70 rifle uses an expanding bullet or softer lead. Nothing has beat my .54 hawken with a pure round ball yet but the .475 is close.
A few seasons back I shot a doe at about 20 yards with the hard cast from the JRH. I could not find her or any blood.

I want all the meat, not a red mist

I know for a fact that 26 gr behind your boolit has no accuracy

I don't think I could hit an elephant with 26 gr.

How did all of this apparent "bashing" come out of a request for a 44 Mag plinker load? Sorry I even asked the question.

[44man]

104477Not bashing at all. Many do take me wrong so if it sounds that way, I apologize.
Just facts and using the .44 since 1956, some things don't work.
I want to show what my .44 does when I shoot a heavy boolit too slow. That is a large piece of cardboard at 50 yards. I don't remember the load but got it here.
Really, if you want lighter loads shoot lighter boolits.
Now the same boolit at 200 yards with 21 gr of 296, the boolit is 330 gr. 104478

[DougGuy]

After reading all of this I have come to the conclusion that I need to take these old heavy boolit loads apart and put less powder back in them. Thanks everybody for your help here.

Yeah sheesh i was gonna say even 24.0gr H110 is off the pressure chart for the caliber with that much boolit. Yeah you definitely are well above any 40,000psi (which was max MANY years ago). I have to side with 44man on this one, regardless if load data says you can go to 22.5gr, I would give a nod to 21.5gr max with such a heavy boolit. Try it for groups and see how it does in your gun.

If you do download the .44 please don't do it with H110/W296, it is highly advised against downloading those powders, BUT... You can easily develop loads in the 75%-90% power band with 2400 or LilGun. There are other powders that will gladly take you below those levels of performance, it's probably more dangerous to download H110 than it is to overload it.

[GSaltzman]

There was a time when unpublished load data was supplied with SSK 320 grain slugs. I do remember 25 grains listed for use in a Super Redhawk. Edit to say accuracy was terrible and not a recommended adventure.

[44MAG#1]

There was a time when unpublished load data was supplied with SSK 320 grain slugs. I do remember 25 grains listed for use in a Super Redhawk. Edit to say accuracy was terrible and not a recommended adventure.

One must remember at one time there were 2 versons of the JDJ 320 bullet marketed by Jones. One was the original with a single crimp groove and one with 2 crimp grooves so it could be seated out to take advantage of Redhawk cylinders. It most certainly did take more powder than the original version (which I have) just like using the bottom crimp groove on the Hornady 300 gr XTP.
When a bullet is seated out it takes more powder just to match the velocity one gets when seated deep (within reason before what I say gets out of hand because of someone reading more into what I am saying than what I am really saying) in a revolver.
Not saying that 25 gr was reasonable even with that bullet but it would require more than the 21.5 H110/W296 that Jones recommended with the original version.
Now where do we go with that bit of info?

[44man]

I have no problem going a tiny bit over max with 296 but accuracy starts to go away. 296/H110 do not go crazy like a faster powder and YES, downloading is far more dangerous because you can get a failure to ignite and shoot another behind a stuck boolit.
I still stand behind the fact a heavy boolit can not be shot slow with any accuracy. Truth is, even a 240 needs just right. Yet you can shoot 240 and 250 gr boolits with Unique and 231 just fine but forget the 300+ boolits. Even though heavy boolits are not as fast, they still need the right spin.
296 can reach the good velocity and I do not suggest trying to make a faster powder go as fast. But what to do with a real short barrel?
I have no way to measure pressures and know a short barrel will not burn all of some powders so pressure in the gun is lower but what about other powders, like Blue Dot? At what burn rate does all pressure peak in the gun instead of powder burning in front of the muzzle? Peak is NOT sustained pressure to push a boolit so it might still be in the gun. Will a given load have more pressure in a long barrel then a short one? I get lost here, don't know a thing. Even after peak, there is still powder burning either in the barrel or out front. Does that powder burning in the barrel add to peak or not? The ideal would seem to have all powder consumed right at muzzle exit of the boolit.
Do not jump in and tell me all powder is gone in an inch and gas expansion is doing the work. To find unburned powder in front of the gun and unburned powder in brass and to see even BP exit barrels in a chunk to burn on the ground means it did not burn right off.
Bear with me here, can shooting 26 gr of 296 from a 4" gun be safer then from 7-1/2" or 10"? Much powder has been shot out without burning in the gun.
Darn it, I cant say.

[44MAG#1]

One must always remember that seating depth is one of the most key components in the added up equations of the sum of pressure.
Just like I stated about the 300 gr Hornady with 2 crimp grooves. Lets say with it (this is just an example not a load or a suggested load) it takes 20 gr H110/W296 with a given primer to achieve a good degree of accuracy with the bullet seated in the crimp groove closest to the nose with a velocity of lets say 1200 fps in a given barrel length. Now take and seat the bullet out long, it takes more powder to now deliver the 1200 fps, which is the sweet spot for accuracy. the charge isn't the question but the seating depth. This is just one of the variables that happen in loading. That is the reason nothing is written in stone regardless how much we want it to be.
With so many custom mold makers now who will place crimp grooves where we want it is hard to say x load will produce y results with z bullet weight.
As with so may posts the OP doesn't give enough info so we have to speak in generalities .
Pressure data is either taken off the body of the case or the mouth of the case. Not somewhere along the bore of the gun. So when you read a certain pressure data the pressure is either off the case as with Speer data with a conformal transducer or with a copper crusher gun as with the 300 gr data for the 300 gr bullets in 44 mag.
Until we can nail down EVERY variable there is it is just an educated "roll of the dice" when it comes to loads that others are playing with.
When someone asks a question on a forum about a load it is like a person calling a doctor and saying I have a headache, and I am too busy to come in, so what do you think it is? When it could be anything from a stress headache to a brain tumor.
What doctor would even attempt that diagnosis?
Still the "doctors of loads"will give out diagnosis on the internet.
We are both old enough to know better than that.

[44man]

One thing I forgot is that too much powder adds to boolit weight because it is being pushed down the bore so that will also increase pressure. So shooting a given load from a 4" might read the same pressure because you are shooting more weight. Much will exit the muzzle and a longer barrel just consumes it but the weight started the same so peak might be in the same place.
Now I am spinning! [smilie=l: I need to retract what I was thinking with the last post.
The longer barrel will still be faster and velocity and rotation is still too slow for a heavy boolit in the short barrel.
Let's figure a 50 fps difference. between 1400 fps and 1350 fps, you are looking at 1800 rpm's difference. Now my 330 gr at 1316 fps is spinning at 47,376 rpm's. But at 1000 fps is is just 36,000. How about 900 fps? 32,400. The darn boolit needs 47, 376 rpm's. for stability.
To say a loss of velocity as you shorten means nothing because it is small, look at spin!
What does over spin do? You need to watch boolits in flight to see it. They rotate around the flight path, looks like a corkscrew. Only distance and loss of spin, slower then velocity loss, will put the boolit to sleep. It is why high velocity rifles can shoot smaller groups at long range then at 100 yards.
To over spin a close range revolver is like a knuckle ball.
The extreme was a 30-30 TC that when shot at 200 meters, the boolit went sideways until it looked like it would hit the next ram in line (won't count) then the boolit swung back to hit the one aimed at. Now it was a curve ball.
The Ruger .44 will shoot a 240 gr straight but the S&W will show a corkscrew, we found the S&W prefers 250 gr boolits. Hey guys, just 10 gr. Just a small difference in twist. The Ruger is 1 in 20" and the S&W is 1 in 18-3/4". What is shot from the Ruger needs slowed a tad in the Smith or boolit weight increased.
I have watched thousands and thousands of boolits/bullets in flight with a good spotting scope.
After all that, the worst thing a guy can do is look for just how fast a gun can be shot. A few brag about loads and velocities.
i also gripe about someone wanting to make a boolit do what it can't.
Too heavy is a joke as each gun has a limit. Testing the 405 gr in the .44 and the 700 gr in the .500 S&W proved how big a joke it is. Nobody has the right tool to screw the head on straight to get rid of the awful thinking.
Did you know a Ruger .45 Colt can shoot a heavier boolit with better accuracy then a .454?

[Moonie]

I used to shoot a boolit about that size at 1,600fps out of a 445 supermagnum with 8" barrel years ago, wouldn't want to pull the trigger on something like that in a 44 without a lanyard...

[44man]

I used to shoot a boolit about that size at 1,600fps out of a 445 supermagnum with 8" barrel years ago, wouldn't want to pull the trigger on something like that in a 44 without a lanyard...
Notice the twist for the gun is 1 in 14"? Strange how things work.

[Groo]

Groo here
44man !!!+++
The heaver/longer the bullet/boolet the faster the "spin" needed to shoot well.
HP's are longer than solids, True keiths are long for their weight.
The FA-454 with its 1/24 twist barrel does not like heavy/long bullets unless driven hard.[ I like 225 to 270 myself]
The python a very accurate gun has a very fast twist [ 1/14 i think] and is very good with hbwc [ a long bullet] at target speeds.
I think that in the quest for speed and weight that we have forgotten that the gun tells us what it likes, not the other way around.....

[DougGuy]

I think that in the quest for speed and weight that we have forgotten that the gun tells us what it likes, not the other way around.....

Big +1 on that! The first time I fired the Lee C430-310-RF cast soft in 50/50+2% over 17.0gr of some old Hercules 2400, THE GUN said YESSSSSSSS!!! Immediately took a liking to that load, it has never shot this well. I think it's the alloy vs 1150-1180-ish fps vs the twist = perfect combo somehow.

[44man]

Groo here
44man !!!+++
The heaver/longer the bullet/boolet the faster the "spin" needed to shoot well.
HP's are longer than solids, True keiths are long for their weight.
The FA-454 with its 1/24 twist barrel does not like heavy/long bullets unless driven hard.[ I like 225 to 270 myself]
The python a very accurate gun has a very fast twist [ 1/14 i think] and is very good with hbwc [ a long bullet] at target speeds.
I think that in the quest for speed and weight that we have forgotten that the gun tells us what it likes, not the other way around.....
So true. It can be so wrong to look for max for your gun. But you see a slower twist needs faster boolits. I hope guys listen to you.
To ignore twist and the velocity is a big thorn in my side.
Notice a lot of 45-70 rifles have a 1 in 20" rate but BPCR's have 1 in 18" like my Browning but I don't think it is fast enough because BP can not reach the velocities for heavy boolits. I need to try lighter boolits because you can see boolits too heavy wander off a long way when spin has no affect any more. To shoot over 500 gr boolits at long range I think a faster twist is needed.
Revolver shooters just ignore the truth. A 4" 1 in 24" twist just can't be shot fast enough to spin.
The Freedom is based on max pressures but get too heavy and they can't do it either.
Twist needs a grace point where just below max shoots best.

[Seancass]

How did all of this apparent "bashing" come out of a request for a 44 Mag plinker load? Sorry I even asked the question.

Sorry you felt this thread as an attack, I can assure you none of us meant it that way. I think several people did have the reaction of "Holy Cow I can't believe you still have hands!" It's actually kind of interesting to know the Ruger will even live thru that load! I'm sorry you felt the need to retract the question and I'm sorry I didn't do more to answer it in my first post. This thread got a little sidetracked.

Anyway, Interesting discussion on bullets developed here. I'm enjoying the read.

[Leadmelter]

I have the SSK molds from back in the day.
They produce very nice boolits.
My brother's brother in law lives up north here in MI. He was telling about his 44 mag and this and that. I told him about some of my SSK loads with 270 and 310 gr boolits. So I made him a box of both.
He is still using them, Why, " It only takes one shoot to kill a deer".
I enjoy the 270gr design more than the 310.
Leadmelter
MI
MI

[44MAG#1]

Speaking of seating bullets long I chronoed some Hornady 300 gr XTP's a couple days ago.
Using 19.5 gr H110, WLP Primers, Speer cases with the bullet seated to the first crimp groove from the nose (seated short) the load ran 1131 FPS from a 3.75 inch Super Blackhawk.
With the bullet seated to the second crimp groove from the nose (seated long) it took 22.4 gr H110 to equal the same velocity all other components being the same.
This is the reason that naming a "specific" charge weight based on bullet weight is hard to do, since with so many custom mold makers willing to put a crimp groove where the buyer wants it, the suggester doesn't really know that the suggestee really has unless the suggestee lets the suggester know.
A 320 gr LBT-LFN-GC bullet (actual weight 336 gr) with 20.5gr H110 and the same components ran 1136 fps.

[44man]

I shoot the 300 XTP with 20.5 gr of 296 for superb accuracy but I have a 10" barrel SBH. Darn it I never ran it over the chronograph. I wish I could tell you the velocity and spin. I bet it is over 1300 fps in any case. So if you lose 50 fps an inch, how do you gain it back? We are looking at near 300 fps loss with the short barrel, give or take. The .44 has a limit being a small case with pressure limits so do you jack up a Unique load? Or would you take it to 26 gr of 296?
You can not gain back the velocity or spin needed by the bullet.
Not a single rifle shooter would ever think of doing what revolver shooters try. All of you would go nuts with an 06 with the wrong twist for the bullet you want to shoot and none of you would think of shortening a Weatherby mag.
I really wish revolver shooters would consider the spin rates. Too many have regressed to a smooth bore.

[44man]

Will a 300 XTP shoot small groups at 1131 fps? I don't think so. So soon you have a noise maker. I am a mean old SOB. Never been proven wrong though.
I love the guy that said all powder is burned in an inch, no matter. That is like listening to Obumbler talk on TV.
Spin your bullet, SPIN it! Darn, I sound like the Scott's man, FEED YOUR LAWN, FEED IT!

[44MAG#1]

I was just giving a perspective on seating depth and charge weight. another funny thing is Hornady list their factory 300 XTP loads at 1150 fps from a 71/2 inch barrel.
19.5 gr of H110/W296 with a WLP will duplicate it in most guns with the bullet seated short.
In my 33/4 inch gun that load ran 1131.
A short barrel will always be lower velocity than a long barrel on the average.
That is a given.
So twist will always be less with a short barrel than a long on the average.
But when you consider that most people thing 25 yards is long for a handgun and 50 yards ridiculous we can then see it really doesn't matter that much.
I rarely see anyone go much past 25 yards at the range where I shoot with many setting up target at less than 25. More like 10 to 15.
I am the only one that will shoot offhand at 100 yards on the rifle range. Even with a M36 S&W 2 incher. Of course I am probably not normal either. Didn't do too shabby either with a gun I wasn't familiar with. Windage wise I did quite well but it was finding the elevation I had trouble with.

[44man]

I was just giving a perspective on seating depth and charge weight. another funny thing is Hornady list their factory 300 XTP loads at 1150 fps from a 71/2 inch barrel.
19.5 gr of H110/W296 with a WLP will duplicate it in most guns with the bullet seated short.
In my 33/4 inch gun that load ran 1131.
A short barrel will always be lower velocity than a long barrel on the average.
That is a given.
So twist will always be less with a short barrel than a long on the average.
But when you consider that most people thing 25 yards is long for a handgun and 50 yards ridiculous we can then see it really doesn't matter that much.
I rarely see anyone go much past 25 yards at the range where I shoot with many setting up target at less than 25. More like 10 to 15.
I am the only one that will shoot offhand at 100 yards on the rifle range. Even with a M36 S&W 2 incher. Of course I am probably not normal either. Didn't do too shabby either with a gun I wasn't familiar with. Windage wise I did quite well but it was finding the elevation I had trouble with.
You are in a good class, Boolit drop is a pain and my 330 gr in the .44 drops a good 35" at 200. Then wind is a crazy thing. But I shoot no revolvers less then 50 myself. I don't own under a .44 so have no need for 10 yards.
One time at the range a guy came with a SBH, set a target at about 10 yards and never hit paper. I asked to shoot his gun, put my loads in and screwed up the sight right, hit a gallon jug every shot at 200 yards. I told him what to do but he left. I screwed up the guys mind.
Did you know some places will not allow a revolver on the rifle range. Are they afraid the gun can beat them?

[44man]

Wind really moves a revolver boolit. Many times at IHMSA at 200 meters, I had to aim at another ram. It got to be easy to judge how far for the first shot and the spotter would allow a slight more or less hold off, I never, ever adjusted windage on my sight.
The most fun was shooting revolvers to 500 meters (547 yards) and clanging a ram. No way to adjust sights so holdover is HUGE, my 45-70 BFR with the Ultra Dot has to be 26', aim point was a tree limb.
You can't do that stuff with the wrong spin! My revolver boolits are more stable then from my rifle. The BFR 45-70 has a 1 in 14" rate. It actually has a wider range of weights that can be shot.
To hear guys wanting a cut down 45-70 and to expect to have accuracy is kind of funny, 10" is too short.
Short works in some calibers but as cases get larger, you need more barrel. My limit on the .475 or JRH is 6" but none of my guns are under 7-1/2" anyway. My .44 SBH is 10" or 10-1/2" don't remember. Old silver hornpipe. I would be at home with a .44 around 5", But lighter boolits would be used and the 240 or 250 are best.
I showed what a slow, heavy boolit does from the old, long barreled Ruger, Can't make spin so how can you shoot heavy and slow from a short one?
The .460 S&W has a gain twist and is perfect for a fast, light boolit/bullet but guys cut them off or buy a shorter one. The factory does not increase the rate on short barrels either. So spin is lost.
Gain twist is great. best thing ever but don't cut it away.
Why are twist rates ignored by handgun shooters? Why are some factory guns made with slow twists?
For bow hunters, do you use straight fletch or helical? Why do you spin an arrow? Easy, it is to keep downrange forces from acting on the arrow. Ever see one wind plane?
I tuned with bare shafts for target and even shot them 60 yards but once I shot a bare shaft with a broad head 40 yards and hit the bull. Next time I tried, the arrow turned and went 200 feet in the air, turned hard left and the last I seen it was over 300 yards over the woods, still up about 200'. Vanes are rifling.
Do rifled slugs from a smooth bore shotgun spin? Not hardly. Why doesn't a 1 in 28" twist shoot a RB from a muzzle loader? Why doesn't a 1 in 60" shoot a boolit?

[glockky]

So 44 man what's the ideal bullet weight and twist for a ruger super blackhawk bisley hunter 44 magnum?

[waksupi]

I'm not 44man, but if the .44 mag. needed anything heavier than 240 gr., you can bet Uncle Elmer would have been using them!

[44man]

Twist is OK at 1 in 20" and just barrel length would be my choice for a Boolit. Longer just extends the weight choice but the 240 or 250 will do good in all. My 10" seems to be good with up to 330 gr and it has shot super from 7-1/2", my friend got 1/2" groups at 50 from his SBH Hunter with the same load. It is very short barrels I would worry about where all powder is not burned. I don't think I would find it good from 4". The .44 has a wide span but a 250 is always a good choice.
Working with a .475 with a slow twist showed a 350 gr boolit would poke small hole groups at 50 but as I increased weight, groups opened and no load work would bring them back. Still minute of deer but not what we were looking for.
One of the better weights I shoot with the .44 is the RD 265 gr. It should work with short barrels. Super good in a short S&W too. I might be wrong but a short .44 is best from 240 to maybe 280 gr, I would not go to 300 or more until 7-1/2". But I can't rule out 6" either. Just have no guns to test.
The 405 gr boolit test was real funny, even from my 10". No way to spin it and it was showing tipping at 50 and turned bad in penetration tests.
The 700 gr in the .500 S&W turned to exit soaked phone books from the side or top of the stack.
I am considered crazy and a fuss budget but any boolit that shoots over 1" at 50 yards for 5 shots is back to the drawing board. The RD 265 has done 3/4" at 50 and 1-1/4" at 100. I use Felix lube, not TL ear wax. Too bad molds are hard to find.
Yeah, it will shoot from a short barrel Ruger.105671 This is what it can do. I was hitting low, hit the rail once so aimed higher for the last shot on the can at 100.

[44man]

That was with my old IHMSA Ruger with well over 76,000 heavy loads through it. The RD was shot with 22 gr of 296 and a fed 150 primer, old, old brass from the 80's. The gun never shot better then what a SRH or SBH Hunter can do, even when new. But I can't part with it. My SRH was good for pop cans at 200 but I wanted a BFR so my friend bought it from me. No way my old SBH is leaving me. Me and the old girl have killed just too many deer.
Need to tell you about Dave. I put up a cardboard deer and he pokes the heart out with the SRH but can't hit a deer, missed 7 last season. He had an artificial heart valve and got an abscess on it, had a few strokes and an attack. They cut him again and put a horse valve in but he had cancer so what will the drugs do do him?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Back in the day when I had a M29 Smith I shot lots of boolits usually Lee 240 gr SWC's with gas checks. At that time the listed max load in Lyman 45 was 24 gr of H110/296. At that time people were not completely convinced that H110 and W296 were the same powder, I knew they were cuz EK said so.

I also loaded Jacketed bullets and shot them at the same tin cans and those got the same 24 gr of H110. I figured that I was in the 1250-1350 fps range from the 8 3/8' bbl.

Then my hand started hurting earlier than before. I was accumulating Recoil damage to my hand, Smiths were well known for hitting the web of your hand pretty hard. I was previously good for 12 rounds before I was done with the heavy loads. I dropped the charge back to 23 gr. and could actually aim and hit things with magnum loads.

26 gr with a 320 gr boolit is not something would knowingly touch off. except maybe in a SRH. still,,, errgh.

Then I started shooting .44 Specials and found I could hit stuff more often. I once hit a 5 gallon can, 6 times in a row at 125 yards offhand. The peanut gallery was impressed.

Then I got a .44 rifle,,, no need to start out weak but I wanted to work up to decent loads. This time using 250 LBT WFNs I started at 19.5 gr of H110 and went up in .5 gr increments until I got some accuracy from the Marlin 1894 CB. Got to 22 gr and the group formed, so I went to 22.5 gr and it fell apart so I am stuck at 22 gr of H110 for that rifle with 250 gr boolits. I estimate 1600 fps from the 24" bbl. someday I'll Chrony it to find out what is really happening. Point being this load combination will completely penetrate virtually any animal in NA with the possible exception of Great Bears.

Complete penetration doesn't care if the boolit weighs 250 gr or 310 gr or whatever. You get 7/16" hole just like you jammed a piece of steel rod thru the critter.

I have no personal experience shooting deer or anything above varmints and birds, however I have been told face to face by Brian Pearce that a 250 gr boolit at 900 fps will go clean thru an elk in any direction. I figure he should know since he and his boys shoot more in one year than the rest of us will shoot in a lifetime, so I'm believing his story until I see different first hand.

I can get 900 fps out of my .44 Special with a 4 5/8 bbl. and a 250 gr mid range load. I see no reason to push that any further.

I can get a little more,,, 1000-1100 from a midrange load of 9.5-10 gr of Unique in my .44 mag SBH Bisley with a 5" bbl.

Point of all this is a hole is a hole. If the boolit expands then the hole gets bigger, if it doesn't expand then we are back at a hole is a hole. I fail so see how poking it thru faster can make a whole lot of difference, and in fact, think the exact opposite would be the case. The extra time the boolit spends inside the critter would give it a longer time to "absorb" more of the boolits energy. Once the boolit has completely passed thru the critter then that's all you can do, and in this case it would seem that "where" the hole was, would be far more important than "how fast" it was made.

If this is true then I would conclude that the "ideal load intensity for any given critter" would be the one that yields complete penetration plus about 5 feet. IE the Boolit is found 5 feet off the back side of said critter. This would evidence that the boolit had, in fact, expended all of it's energy on the critter.

Maybe I'm all wrong here, but you'll have to really try hard to convince me otherwise. :holysheep

Randy

[DougGuy]

So 44 man what's the ideal bullet weight and twist for a ruger super blackhawk bisley hunter 44 magnum?

Again, I am not 44man either, but for MY 7 1/2" SBH, the Lee 310 in 50/50+2% over 16.0gr 2400 with WLP primer woke that gun up like right now! I can scratch the alloy with a thumbnail, I can dig a thumbnail into it. It's softer than air cooled WW for sure. I have sized and honed the cylinder throats to a very even .4325" (a perfect drag fit for a .432" boolit), cut the forcing cone to a beautiful long smooth 11° finish, and done the poor man's trigger job by unhooking one side of the trigger return spring. Nothing fancy, just making sure no parts of the gun were interfering with the boolit being fired. When I fired the first 3 rounds of this exact load, I knew right then that I had hit on the magic combo for this pistol. In all the years I have owned it, it has never shot this good. I think it is the correct velocity (1150 - 1180ish) for this alloy in this barrel with this twist that does it, it's not one thing by itself, it's the combo.

[44man]

It was labeled "dwell time" by a big hunter and I believe in it. More internal damage.
I have shot quite a few deer with my .500 JRH though using a 440 gr boolit and it does far less damage then the .475 with a 420 gr, both are at 1350 fps. The big boolit has no dwell time and goes through too fast so it needs a softer nose so some expansion slows it. Deer hit with the JRH will go 120 yards while the .475 dumps most in their tracks.
The 45-70 with the same alloy has deer go over 200 yards so I made a WFN and it didn't change a thing. The .45 Colt at 1160 fps kills deer much faster with great blood trails. There is no blood trail to speak of from the 45-70 or JRH. I learned more velocity is not what to look for long ago.
I do not worry about over penetration as long as the boolit worked while inside the deer.
A few seasons back I shot at a fast moving deer, it was a little foggy and as I swung I seen what looked like a little brush ahead of the deer and the gun went off as it reached the brush. The deer stopped and jumped back, next shot hit the neck and it dropped. I was using my .44.
When I got there I seen it was not brush but and osage orange tree with a double trunk. My boolit went through a 10" trunk and was somewhere inside the second trunk. That is some darn tough wood! Even with all that penetration, the .44 kills just right.
That shot was around 67 yards and I showed the damage to the neck in one of my pictures.
It is just not the size of the hole you poke so don't bother to measure boolit diameter. You need energy placed in passage.
If I softened the .44 or .475 boolits, I would just blow deer to shreds. Both of these do a lot of internal damage without meat loss to speak of. Butcher right to the hole is common.
I had a buck facing me on a down slope at 76 yards once. I shot him below the chin with the .475, the boolit took out a bunch of short ribs, went above the guts and exited from the ham. I lost no meat anywhere.105787