SMLE key holing

[Silver Fox]

I have a 1916 BSA No.1 Mk.III. I've shot 314299 sized at both .311 through it with 16 gr of 2400 with no issues with key holing. What would cause key holing with this same boolit with 13 gr of red dot? This was serious completely sideways key holing at 50 metres.

[BruceB]

.311 is far too small for most .303 barrels. Try a few rounds with UNSIZED 314299s, even if you have to lube with your fingers.

NOE's 316299 was designed for the .303 and other "fat .30s", and from my NOE mould the bullets drop at about .3155. I'll be shooting these bullets at the LARGEST diameter I can conjure up for my .303s.

All of them are far newer (and hopefully closer to spec) than your Mk III, which was made under extreme wartime urgency..

[Silver Fox]

I have 314299 sized at .314 that shoot well. I just gave the .311 a try for fun and was wondering why they would shoot a nice group with the 2400 but key hole severely with red dot.

[JeffinNZ]

My 1916 Enfield SMLE likes nothing less than .314 and I generally shoot .316 in it.

[enfield]

I don't know where you guys get these .311 and .312 Lee Enfields, I sure cant find em.

[CHeatermk3]

Fox--
I've found that I have bad luck using red dot in reduced loads behind cast bullets(in 38-55 and 45-70).

Just never seemed to work; lousy 50-yd accuracy and inconsistent pressure signs--one round would fail to seal the chamber the next would seem a bit hot--might've been position sensitive or maybe??? Gave it up for a bad idea; too bad as I've got several pounds of reddot.

Stick with 2400 if you can find it or try IMR4198--4759 works great and I've been using AA5744 with success in my M39 for match loads.

[bruce drake]

Enfield, It usually occurs when a fellow mikes his bullet slug and doesn't take into account the 5-groove rifling of the enfields. Same thing occurs with T38 Arisakas which are rifled in the Metford style as well.

Heck, I was guilty of it a couple of years ago as well before I started sizing them properly for cast. Both of my Enfield #4s as well as my P14 prefer .314 sized boolits.

Here is a link on our own forum on how to size our odd-groove barrels properly...http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?149803-Actual-barrel-dimension-of-bullet-size-for-the-Lee-Enfield

Bruce

[Silver Fox]

I don't know where you guys get these .311 and .312 Lee Enfields, I sure cant find em.

I wasn't suggesting it's .311. I slugged it and if my measuring was correct it was around .313. I just had the .311 boolits and tried them for fun. They shot fine with the 2400 and key holed with red dot.

[Silver Fox]

Fox--
I've found that I have bad luck using red dot in reduced loads behind cast bullets(in 38-55 and 45-70).

Just never seemed to work; lousy 50-yd accuracy and inconsistent pressure signs--one round would fail to seal the chamber the next would seem a bit hot--might've been position sensitive or maybe??? Gave it up for a bad idea; too bad as I've got several pounds of reddot.

Stick with 2400 if you can find it or try IMR4198--4759 works great and I've been using AA5744 with success in my M39 for match loads.

My Finn M27 wasn't crazy about red dot either. I just bought it because they were out of 2400. No key holing with the m27 but not nearly the accuracy of the 2400. I won't be buying it again.

[Silver Fox]

Fox--
I've found that I have bad luck using red dot in reduced loads behind cast bullets(in 38-55 and 45-70).

Just never seemed to work; lousy 50-yd accuracy and inconsistent pressure signs--one round would fail to seal the chamber the next would seem a bit hot--might've been position sensitive or maybe??? Gave it up for a bad idea; too bad as I've got several pounds of reddot.

Stick with 2400 if you can find it or try IMR4198--4759 works great and I've been using AA5744 with success in my M39 for match loads.

Do imr4198 and 4759 require fillers?

[blixen]

I've got a 303 1945 that shoots .312s pretty well, but one day keyholed with the same 13 grains of 2400 load. The key holing (at 50 yards) was a result of seating the boolits too deeply-- forcing a long jump to the rifling. (I think.)

Even with that, the rifle wants fatter boolits--at least .315 --to really shine.

Btw, I've had good luck with red dot In my milsurps.

[WRideout]

Do imr4198 and 4759 require fillers?

IMR 4198 is a medium burning rifle powder that fills the case pretty well with charges that are still safe. I have never had a need to use filler.

Wayne

[PAT303]

I shoot more AR2207,sold as H4198 in my enfields than any other powder,20-25 grains works well under a .316 boolit. Pat

[petroid]

I wasn't suggesting it's .311. I slugged it and if my measuring was correct it was around .313. I just had the .311 boolits and tried them for fun. They shot fine with the 2400 and key holed with red dot.

My guess is the faster burning red dot powder is building pressure too quickly and upsetting the boolit when it enters the rifling. Do you get leading with either load? If you shot the 2400 loads first and then the red dot without cleaning you could have leading or fouling that could contribute to a decrease in accuracy

[HollowPoint]

I have a 1916 BSA No.1 Mk.III. I've shot 314299 sized at both .311 through it with 16 gr of 2400 with no issues with key holing. What would cause key holing with this same boolit with 13 gr of red dot? This was serious completely sideways key holing at 50 metres.

It could be because the Red Dot powder isn't creating enough velocity to stabilize that particular bullet compared to the 2400 powder.

That same characteristics of a given powder that creates velocity also creates the pressures that obtrudes the cast bullet to proper fit in the bore. If these two criteria aren't achieved when using Red Dot powder, it could conceivably cause key holing.

Do you know what velocities your bullets are flying at with each powder? I have an Enfield No.4 MkII that was doing the same thing. I could never figure out why so I ended up rebarreling. The problem went away.

HollowPoint

[gwpercle]

Rifles are just laws unto themselves. Especially with cast boolits. That's why there are no absolutes in this hobby. I smile every time I see a post requesting the "best" powder, load, boolit or just about anything when it comes to reloading. If there were one "best" we could all stop looking for it.
Gary

[gwpercle]

I don't know where you guys get these .311 and .312 Lee Enfields, I sure cant find em.
Just pure dumb luck .....25 years ago I got a BSA made No. 4 MKI dated 1942 in a trade, looked like it had been through several wars. Had dies, so last year I decided to get a mould and do some shooting . Expecting the usual .315 to .316 size, I slugged the bore. Darn thing measured .312. couldn't be right! I slugged it three different times and measured them every different way I could find for 5 groove barrels ....low and behold it measures .312 . Kept looking for a Lyman 314299, never could find one...so at .312 measure I just got a Lee .313 for $20 dollars and a .314 sizer die. Going to lube and size some this weekend and take her shooting.
Gary.
...Lee Enfields are like a box of chocolates...you just never know what you're going to get.

[Silver Fox]

Thanks for the replies. I really have no idea what velocity I was getting with either load since I have no chronograpph. As for leading I'm not even sure I would recognize it. I'm very new to shooting cast. I did shoot the red dot loads without cleaning after the 2400. In any case its allmproving to be a lot of fun, even the key holes lol. Half the fun is in the chase with this stuff anyway and I have a ton to learn

[303Guy]

I have a once new No4 barrel fitted onto my 1902 MLE action that measured .304/.312. It shot j-words pretty accurately. In my ignorance I bought a Lee .311 mould which is for a 308. It has a strangely profiled throat for which I attempted to make a matching sizer die to form a paper patch boolit core. it fits the throat pretty well and one fine day when the dust has cleared I want to have a go with it. I forget the finished boolit dimensions which would give some indication of what you might be looking at (I do have drawings for it somewhere on Photobucket).

Now if you wanted to try paper patching a .311 mould would be a good starting place. You might want to have a look over on paper patching but beware - paper patching is addicting and there is no known cure!

[blixen]

Seems like this forum needs a sticky: "Your .303 Brit shoots like ****? Here's why." Or some such. And put it under the "SMLE accuracy" sticky--it would contain all the great info that has been repeated in so many discussions like this one.
I'm as guilty as any novice of having loaded up .311 boolits the first time, then skidding them down a .316" No.4 bore. (And I still haven't solved the puzzle.)
Not that I don't enjoy these monthly discussions--it's like a support group for us 303 cast boolit shooters. :-)