Thoughts on Homemade BP

[Eagle66]

I've been reading some of the threads about homemade black powder. I tried out a few of the ideas they offered, so I thought I would toss out some stuff from my own reading & experiences. Making BP is no more dangerous than shooting or casting your own boolits. If you’re careless, people can get hurt. I would offer 1 big safety suggestion: In quantities larger than the Harbor Freight mill, don’t do it around homes, people, or animals you like. At least 100’ clearance minimum. Accidents are extremely rare, but insurance agents get real testy when you break all the windows in the neighborhood, not to speak of your wife when you bust the whole house.

I built my own ball mill like the one in Ball Milling Theory and Practice for the Amateur Pyrotechnician by Lloyd Sponenburgh. My jar volume is 1 gallon.

From this and other sources, here are a few “rules of thumb”

:arrow:Filling the jar: ½ the volume in media (lead balls, small pieces of brass rod), ¼ the volume in ingredients. Mine took 30# of 50 cal cast from WW (Lino or mono would be better) with 1 qt of chemical mix

:arrow:Ratio of chemicals, by weight: 75 % Potassium nitrate / 15% charcoal / 10% sulfur. 1 qt is about 600 grams ( 1-1/3 #); 450/90/60. I use grams make the arithmetic easier.

:arrow:The smaller the jar, the smaller the media used, & the longer it takes. 1 gal with 50 cal needs about 3 hrs, the HF one with 32 cal, about 2 days.

:arrow: Speed is important. There’s a formula to calculate it, but it comes out to 65-70 rpm for the 1 gal jar, slower for smaller. Slower is better than fast, because if it rotates too fast the media sort of sticks to the wall instead of falling on the powder.

I got the hockey pucks like the others after compressing and drying the meal. Then I bashed them up with a 2 x 4 in an aluminum dutch oven. Then I ran the chunks through a hand cranked coffee mill with CERAMIC (No sparks to make a big bang and upset the wife & neighbors) grinding discs. Then I screened the grindings

I didn't know what size screens to use after corning, so I tried an experiment. I have a set of screens 4, 8, 10, 16, 20, 40, 70, & 100. I poured some Goex through the stack. The fffg passed through the 40 screen, but not the 70. The ffffg passed the 70, but not the 100. I didn't have any ffg to test, but I'm guessing that it would probably be 16 to 40. After screening, I sent the chunks through the coffee grinder over again until all had been screened as fine as I wanted. This takes some fiddling to find the right grinder adjustments.

If anyone wants more details, etc, please PM me. I'll be doing another post with tests, chrono data, etc.

[9w1911]

awesome!!! thanks

[Boz330]

Eagle 66, post your data, if you would. The more info available the better. A comparison to commercial powder, weight for weight gives everyone interested more to work from. Also the type of charcoal used would be informational.
I found that my powder gives more FPS per grain than Swiss but was not nearly as dense so in a cartridge where volume is limited it presents a problem.


Bob

[Texantothecore]

I will second Bob'S comment. We would love to see the the data.

Your reference to using a coffee grinder for the puck breaking process was the second reference I have seen to that technique and it would not have occurred to me to do it that way. What kind of yield do you get on the first pass?

[drinks]

Go to Amazon, they have several books on making BP and other powders.

[Tatume]

Save your money, the information available right here is much more reliable and free. Amazon has nothing to offer that we don't already have.

[mold maker]

I could have bought over 8k primers with the funds I've spent on books written by "experts". All I got was confused.
There's way more useful info here, by folks that are actually doing it. Many of the "experts" didn't even understand the books they parroted, in slightly different wording.

[Nobade]

I will second Bob'S comment. We would love to see the the data.

Your reference to using a coffee grinder for the puck breaking process was the second reference I have seen to that technique and it would not have occurred to me to do it that way. What kind of yield do you get on the first pass?

I used to break up the pucks with a rolling pin. It was a lot of work and I ended up with a lot of very fine powder that had to be re-pressed. I got a Hario Skerton Japanese burr grinder,
http://www.amazon.com/Hario-Ceramic-Coffee-Mill-Skerton/dp/B001802PIQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399594886&sr=8-1&keywords=hario+skerton
and it works so much better than what I used to do. The powder is almost all usable now, and it is a lot less work to grind up.

-Nobade

[square butte]

Thanks Nobade. I have been looking for just such a creature for quite some time.

[Nobade]

You're welcome. They do work well and make life a lot easier. The box is pretty funny, they seemed to be trying to call it skeleton but the translation got messed up and they continued to print the boxes like that. Even if their English isn't all that great the coffee grinder is top notch.

-Nobade

[Boz330]

I will second Bob'S comment. We would love to see the the data.

Your reference to using a coffee grinder for the puck breaking process was the second reference I have seen to that technique and it would not have occurred to me to do it that way. What kind of yield do you get on the first pass?

I also use the Ceramic coffee grinder. I bust it up with a ball bat in an aluminum pan, then run the chunks through the grinder. I don't get anywhere near Nobade's amount of usable powder though. I might get 60%. I screen after every operation, even after the ball bat treatment.
I found that I only get get good results in my rifles from 3F so anything larger goes back through the coffee grinder. I get a lot of fines and some of that is pan powder but most is re-wet and pressed again. It isn't a fast operation but gets the job done.

Bob

[Fly]

Sounds like you have done your homework.The ball mill is a very important issue
& if you went by Lloyd Sponenburgh instuctions you can't go wrong.Lloyd knows
his stuff, & has helped me in the past.

I have done many test at home & at the PGI events & we can & do make powder as fast & faster
then what can be bought over the counter, Swss include.The problem we face is making
it consistent.

Fly

[Texantothecore]

Consistency shoild be achievable within a certain range. Let's see...


Sulfur is the same from batch to batch.
Kno3 is the same from batch to batch.
Ball milling is consistent from batch to batch.

Which leaves charcoal as the one ingredient which has the highest potential for variability. I wonder if it is possible to construct an electric retort which would control the temperature very closely. It would probably be a variation of a lead melter but with much more heating capability. It might be a heated cylinder which would handle a gallon at a time but which might be rescalable to 3 or 5 gallons with some work.

It also occured to me that the graphite might be used by commercial makers to make the finished product more consistent.

Would dextrin be useful in this role, I wonder?

Any thoughts?

[LynC2]

Consistency shoild be achievable within a certain range. Let's see...


Sulfur is the same from batch to batch.
Kno3 is the same from batch to batch.
Ball milling is consistent from batch to batch.

Which leaves charcoal as the one ingredient which has the highest potential for variability. I wonder if it is possible to construct an electric retort which would control the temperature very closely. It would probably be a variation of a lead melter but with much more heating capability. It might be a heated cylinder which would handle a gallon at a time but which might be rescalable to 3 or 5 gallons with some work.

It also occured to me that the graphite might be used by commercial makers to make the finished product more consistent.

Would dextrin be useful in this role, I wonder?

Any thoughts?

I haven't started making BP yet, but will likely in the future. As far as the electric retort, I had thought that perhaps one could use a PID and an electric hotplate to achieve the desired "cooking" temperature?

[Fly]

I haven't started making BP yet, but will likely in the future. As far as the electric retort, I had though that perhaps one could use a PID and an electric hotplate to achieve the desired "cooking" temperature?

Cooking TEMP?????????????????? don't understand unless your using the CIA method?

Fly

[LynC2]

Cooking TEMP?????????????????? don't understand unless your using the CIA method?

Fly

That would be for making the charcoal. There is a certain desired temperature range that produces the best charcoal.

[Texantothecore]

One of our bp makers is using a 10 lb (?) Melter to do this and it apparently will turn out good charcoal in about 45 minutes at a temperature that is fairly well controlled (660f). IIRC he is producing about 4 oz of charcoal on each run which would be good for about 20 oz of finished powder. I will probably go this route as it requires very little attention and should yield fairly consistent charcoal.

Most of the other set ups which I have seen seem to have little in the way of temp controls. Control seems to be a bit of an illusion for most.

My first run making charcoal involved 5 lbs of Eastern Cedar and although I ended up with a large amount of good cc it took a long time to process as
I had to develop methods suited to my equipment.

I don't know if a pid controller would be needed. I guess that determintion
will come later.

It just occured to me that the above level of production would be quite suitable for me so I am going to start looking for a used melter to set up.

[Fly]

Oh charcoal,650 to 700 degrees.If you deside to buy some I sell Black Willow
ground to almost air float for $6 a LB.Cheapest & best on the net, (wink)

Fly

[Texantothecore]

I haven't started making BP yet, but will likely in the future. As far as the electric retort, I had thought that perhaps one could use a PID and an electric hotplate to achieve the desired "cooking" temperature?

Lyman has a ladle melter, 10 lb, that would work about 32.00. My experience is that bottom heating works but I had to periodically take the paint can off the fire and crush the unconverted wood down to the bottom. It did work but took a bit of time. The melter has heating elements in the side and may work a bit better.

[ofitg]

One of our bp makers is using a 10 lb (?) Melter to do this and it apparently will turn out good charcoal in about 45 minutes at a temperature that is fairly well controlled (660f). IIRC he is producing about 4 oz of charcoal on each run which would be good for about 20 oz of finished powder. I will probably go this route as it requires very little attention and should yield fairly consistent charcoal.



TTTC, I have used an electric 10-lb LEE melting pot for this purpose..... but I could only jam about 3 ounces of wood into the small pot, and that yields about 3/4 ounce of charcoal. I would recommend selecting a larger size pot.

[Texantothecore]

TTTC, I have used an electric 10-lb LEE melting pot for this purpose..... but I could only jam about 3 ounces of wood into the small pot, and that yields about 3/4 ounce of charcoal. I would recommend selecting a larger size pot.

Thank you for the info that is quite valuable and sort of eliminates that technique for consideration.

If someone has a design for a heating furnace based on the lead melter concept which would allow one to cook 1/2 gal or 1 gallon at a time I would take a serious look at it for a build.

A 10 lb melter would be about 1/10th of a gallon and a 20 lb would go about 1/5 of a gallon, maybe a bit more. I may take a look at a 20 pounder.

[LynC2]

I was thinking of making one with a heating element wrapped around the container and insulated. Perhaps a 1 gal paint can using something like one of these Bendable Immersion Heater Elements:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/537/=s19a41

[Texantothecore]

I think you might be on the right track with those heating elements. I would love to see a build out using those.

Other thoughts which occured to me:

A double boiler which would carry a paint can in the middle and a large amount of temp controlled molten lead in the double boiler section but it sounds like a whole lot of trouble.

The last method which might work is an oven type structure which could be controlled for temp either electrically or with dampers if wood fired. I will probably play with the last concept a bit and if anyone has played with that type of build I would certainly like to find out their results.

[Texantothecore]

If anyone has come up with a method using a rocket stove that would be of interest.

[ofitg]

A 10 lb melter would be about 1/10th of a gallon and a 20 lb would go about 1/5 of a gallon, maybe a bit more. I may take a look at a 20 pounder.

Yeah, I must have run wood through that 10-lb pot about a hundred times, charring some dried Acacia branches I had laying in the back yard.... the outside of the pot got stained brown from all the smoke.

More recently, I dug a 20-lb LEE bottom-pour pot out of a box in my garage, and discovered that the bottom spout was totally clogged up with corroded zinc. I think that's going to be my new charcoal furnace, when I'm ready to make charcoal again.
I'm guessing that it will yield 1-1/2 ounces of charcoal for each run - enough for 10 or 12 ounces of finished BP, depending on the BP's formulation.

[Texantothecore]

Actually, you could do the double boiler using kno3. You would heat the kno3 to 750 or so to chase off the o3 and use it as a nitrite.

One of our users wrote up a method for annealing cases using something like this technique, so it might work. You could probably forcibly immerse the paint can in a heated kn03 bath and it might work. Carefully I might add.

[Texantothecore]

Oh to have a spare 20 lb pot in the garage!

I will probably go with that 20 lb melter as the method I am using now uses too much charcoal. Really adds to the cost per lb.

Since the actual heat source is the walls and bottom of the gallon container I also considered induction heating of the container but decided that "That way lies madness". Lol.

[Eagle66]

It also occured to me that the graphite might be used by commercial makers to make the finished product more consistent.

Would dextrin be useful in this role, I wonder?

Any thoughts?

From what I've read, graphite is used by the big boys to coat the grains and make metering more uniform, but it doesn't have anything to do with power. Dextrin is a binder that is useful when making fireworks stars, etc, but for our purpose it isn't needed and actually makes the powder slower.

I can see how making the charcoal cooking temp, time, batch size, etc more consistant could help, but there is one big lump in that pudding. The point Tex made about the chemicals is dead on, since chemicals are always the same. However, since Willow & other kinds of wood is organic, it's never the same from one tree to another. Therefore the charcoal that results can never be the same either from one batch to the next. I make my charcoal from black willow. I harvested enough at one place to make 4 -1 Gal paint cans full. Then I milled it to airfloat and blended them all together, so this mix should be the same for every batch made from it. The next batch of coal will be different, though.

I suspect that the Goex, Swiss, etc do that too, with their charcoal. I'd bet that they also blend their finished powder batches so that the can made next year is the same as the one you bought last week. The smokeless powder people do that so that the powders that we reload with are always the same. Makes sense to me that the BP companies would also do that.

Be careful when you ask for my thoughts, you know I always have more.

[Boz330]

I have a Brinkman LP smoker that I made 1 batch of CC in and it worked well. If there was a thermometer in there it might be possible to control the processing temp a little better. Obviously an electronic method would be ideal but maybe out of the realm of doing it on the cheap.
If you make large enough batches and blend them it really isn't that big a deal unless you are shooting beyond 100yd. OTOH if you want to use this in competition at ranges further than that it is probably a necessity. I have shot my powder out to 500yd. At 300yd it was passable but at 500 the vertical was too much for reasonable scores. Since I mostly shoot it at 100 and less it works fine for me. The longer ranges were for grins and giggles more than anything else just to see what was possible.
I have no doubt that some of the guys here will turn this into rocket science though, no pun or disrespect intended. Just a statement of the knowledge and compassion of the folks here. If you are doing this for fun or, like me to see if it is possible, a lesser degree of accuracy may be acceptable. Minute of deer has been my parameters and it exceeds that by a bunch.

Bob

[Texantothecore]

Minute of deer is quite good enough for me. That leaves the seconds of deer for further exploration in the lab (garage).

[Texantothecore]

I wonder if resifting the finished powder into a narrower range of particle sizes would increase the consistency. Iirc some of the long distance shooters do this with commercial powders and it seems to have a measurable effect.

[Fly]

My lord, you guys over think everything.I been in this for sooooooo many years.I have been a
judge at the PGI black powder events with some of the best black powder makers in the US.

But some things NEVER change in powder making.Even thow it has been made for over 700
years, people keep trying to improve it.I guess that's good.But a time comes in your life
that you realize you have very good powder for what we use it for.

But God bless those that keep trying.Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Fly

[AlaskanGuy]

Lol... Some call it brainstorming... He he.... In my case, i have a hard time just working up a good link to a chain of thought...lol

[Texantothecore]

From what I've read, graphite is used by the big boys to coat the grains and make metering more uniform, but it doesn't have anything to do with power. Dextrin is a binder that is useful when making fireworks stars, etc, but for our purpose it isn't needed and actually makes the powder slower.

I can see how making the charcoal cooking temp, time, batch size, etc more consistant could help, but there is one big lump in that pudding. The point Tex made about the chemicals is dead on, since chemicals are always the same. However, since Willow & other kinds of wood is organic, it's never the same from one tree to another. Therefore the charcoal that results can never be the same either from one batch to the next. I make my charcoal from black willow. I harvested enough at one place to make 4 -1 Gal paint cans full. Then I milled it to airfloat and blended them all together, so this mix should be the same for every batch made from it. The next batch of coal will be different, though.

I suspect that the Goex, Swiss, etc do that too, with their charcoal. I'd bet that they also blend their finished powder batches so that the can made next year is the same as the one you bought last week. The smokeless powder people do that so that the powders that we reload with are always the same. Makes sense to me that the BP companies would also do that.

Be careful when you ask for my thoughts, you know I always have more.

Branches on trees can be different. It isn't just a tree to tree difference. So that is one variable we will have to live with.

[Texantothecore]

Bttt for some really great information.

[a.squibload]

I use a "propane pot" with lid for smelting lead, suppose that would be good enough
for making charcoal? No thermostat, propane burner, good enough for a first try?
Guess keeping the air out would be the hard part.

[Texantothecore]

I use a "propane pot" with lid for smelting lead, suppose that would be good enough
for making charcoal? No thermostat, propane burner, good enough for a first try?
Guess keeping the air out would be the hard part.

Should work perfectly. When I started making my own I too thought that keeping the air out would be a problem but it turns out that is quite easily done. The offgassing pushes out any air in the retort and keeps the air from coming in. I have had paint cans offgassing so much that it looked as if I might have been able to measure the thrust.

The set up you have should work beautifully and you will be running like most of us without much in the way of temperature control.

Do it tonight! Nothing like getting down and dirty when the inspiration strikes.

[leeggen]

Seems to me the mfg of BP char. is to cook the wood at approx 525 to 580 degrees. I have it stached on the computer some where. But if you search you can find it on line, the temps were for Tree of Heaven and the mfg. was out of Louisiana I think.
CD