Automating a Ballisti-Cast Mk VI

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I've been reading a lot of the threads lately on the forums about various machines being automated. I've also seen comments where it was said the Ballistic-Cast MK VI lube-sizer might not be automatable.

I looked mine over and had a couple of thoughts/ideas I want to throw out there and see if anybody runs with it:

1. You have to do two things to automate the Mark VI. The first is you have to move the punch holder (ram) up and down. The second is you have to find a way to rotate the "thumbwheel" to bring up the next boolit each time the punch holder is operated up & down.

2. I believe automating the punch holder/ram could be accomplished by modifying the original handle and using air aka PID controlled pistons w/articulating arms of some sort. It may be a pull/push rather than a push/pull arrangement may be better.

3. I believe by modifying the thumb wheels, an accomodation could be created to allow for a push/return could be designed. The thumb wheel would have to be notched with something like an "L" with the long portion of the "L" going along the side of the thumb wheel and the short side of the "L" being the "deep" part of the notch, if that makes sense.

4. Once the notch is made, you have a flat place for a piston-driven arm to push against the wheel, causing it to rotate. As the wheel rotates, it reaches a point the piston-driven arm can no longer reach the flat it was pushing against, because of the rotation of the wheel and at this point, the wheel should be in position to have dropped it's boolit into the sizing die and ready for lube-sizing.

5. Once the "push" arm has extended fully, it can be retracted while the boolit is being sized and be ready for the next "push." Again, this arm can be controlled by a PID.

6. Once issue that will need to be addressed is the return and reset/re-alignment of the "push" arm so it doesn't interfere with the wheel during sizing or during return of the push arm, causing the wheel to go out of alignment. I've though of a spring/ball detente arrangement, with divots cut in the bottom of the wheel, but the arm also needs to not rub against the wheel, so some left/right articulation of some sort will need to be designed in.

Anybody want to take a stab at the left/right articulation? Your thoughts on this method of automation vs. others? I'm thinking right now this would be the least expensive.

I also thought of cutting gear teeth into the thumb wheel and have some sort of inexpensive stepper motor rotating the wheel.

[ssnow]

As you know, I like the Ballisti-Cast sizer.

I am the one who mentioned that the Star may be easier to automate but I never said or intended for anyone to think that it could not be done :) as it certainly can be done.

I mentioned this difference between the two machines for several reasons; First, simply because the difference exists :) But also because many here, (thanks to the work of some other members), are considering automation so this could be a factor worth considering. Lastly; to try and be as objective, factual, and informative as possible in my posts, while still listing my preferences without undue bias.

For clarity, (for those who may be reading along without knowing what was said before) The bullet feeder is a factory option with the Star, and feeds the bullets into the sizing die during machine operation. The Ballisti-Cast has a feed wheel that is manually advanced, so if you are going to automate it, this is one extra part you have to build yourself, while you can simply buy it for the Star.

Okay; moving on. You can articulate the wheel either direction you wish, it really doesn't matter which direction you choose to turn it.

But I'll throw out another idea for you. Perhaps the easiest way to do it (mechanically) would be to simply remove the wheel completely, and build a shuttle that works similar to their commercial sizer. The shuttle could be power push and pull.....or you can always use a spring to return the shuttle if it helps with your linkage arrangement.

For mounting the shuttle, I would build the shuttle assembly on a stand or plate, and then bolt both shuttle and the sizer to the stand/plate.......so that you don't have to hassle with attachments to the sizer itself. You are going to have some sort of stand/plate arrangement anyway (for your motor and linkages) so might as well use/incorporate this with that.

I think that this may be a more simple arrangement for the hobbyist builder to build with basic tools, rather than turning the wheel itself. But hey, it's just an idea thrown out there.......There are many ways it could be done.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

ssnow, in red, as usual. I played Devil's advocate.


As you know, I like the Ballisti-Cast sizer.

I am the one who mentioned that the Star may be easier to automate but I never said or intended for anyone to think that it could not be done :) as it certainly can be done. I remember you saying it was more difficult, but I think I read somewhere else, perhaps on another forum, that it might not be automatable due to costs or difficulty.

I mentioned this difference between the two machines for several reasons; First, simply because the difference exists :) And worth mentioning simply for clarity's sake.

But also because many here, (thanks to the work of some other members), are considering automation so this could be a factor worth considering. Especially so for those with more money than time, where spare time is a precious thing to spend with family.

Lastly; to try and be as objective, factual, and informative as possible in my posts, while still listing my preferences without undue bias. Now that's a mouthful my friend, you're not a lawyer or politician are you? :) Yes, I'm busting your chops. :)

For clarity, (for those who may be reading along without knowing what was said before) The bullet feeder is a factory option with the Star, and feeds the bullets into the sizing die during machine operation. The Ballisti-Cast has a feed wheel that is manually advanced, so if you are going to automate it, this is one extra part you have to build yourself, I'm not sure you would have to "build" that much. Simply hire a skilled machinist to make the part. To play Devil's advocate here, I'm thinking if you cut gear teeth into the manual feed wheel, then add a simple, small D.C. motor with a gear, you have all the machinery you need to advance the wheel. The D.C. motor should easily be controlled by a PLC out put of 12/24 volts or so without much amperage. Once you control the motor's operation with a PLC, you then have the capability to control the rate/timing of the advance of the wheel in order to synchronize with the operation of the air piston set up driving the operation of the punch holder. This setup as described should work, be inexpensive and the PLC, if selected by a knowledgeable individual, should be capable of controlling both the wheel's operation and the punch holder/ram's operation.


while you can simply buy it for the Star. (For $120.00, plus $27.50 a caliber conversion with conversions under 1/2" costing .$32.25, so not necessarily inexpensively/affordably.) I'm not sure, but I'm thinking the modification/manufacture of the manual wheels and addition of a D.C. motor with a gear fitting the wheel gear teeth might end up being less expensive than the price of the Star feeder mechanism. I'm not figuring the PLC into the equation, as both the Star and the MK VI would need a PLC to control the operation.

Okay; moving on. You can articulate the wheel either direction you wish, it really doesn't matter which direction you choose to turn it. True

But I'll throw out another idea for you. Perhaps the easiest way to do it (mechanically) would be to simply remove the wheel completely, and build a shuttle that works similar to their commercial sizer. I looked at that mechanism in the film on their website. It's a real nice mechanism with a steel shuttle. An advantage to this mechanism is the steel shuttle, in that if timing was off, the steel would survive a "strike" from the punch much better than the aluminum would, though the punch might be damaged. A thought I had was why not just buy this mechanism as parts from Ballisti-Cast and find a way to add it to the Mk VI? A negative is this is likely to add a good bit of cost and you still have to adapt it to the MK VI before you can begin to automate it. This could be problematic with the small amount of "floor space" available to install it on the MK VI.

The shuttle could be power push and pull.....or you can always use a spring to return the shuttle if it helps with your linkage arrangement. I'm thinking of the cost of springs vs. the cost of a two way piston and the durability of one vs. the other. I'd lean towards a two way air piston arrangement, since springs tend to break over time.

For mounting the shuttle, I would build the shuttle assembly on a stand or plate, and then bolt both shuttle and the sizer to the stand/plate.......so that you don't have to hassle with attachments to the sizer itself. Addresses my above question, but how much costs does adding this versus adding a stamped steel black box to mount a D.C. motor in with a tab shaped to allow it to bolt underneath the current tube holder? The more support stuff you have, the more costs involved in making it. I learned with building my boat that sheet aluminum is fairly easy to bend and shape at home. I'm sure thin sheet steel could be done so as well. One could even build an extension to shield the "gear" interaction for not much more effort. Also, drilling the same material is easy as well and can be done with hand tools, so mounting a 12/24V D.C. motor might end up being the least expensive way to go and very easily controlled. A motor, a plastic gear w/ set screw, sheet metal box and tubing to run your control wiring from the sheet metal box to the PLC and you're done.

You are going to have some sort of stand/plate arrangement anyway (for your motor and linkages) so might as well use/incorporate this with that. True, but a motor to drive that very easily turned and light aluminum wheel wouldn't need to be very big, perhaps an inch in overall size/diameter and perhaps even much less, so a small sheet metal box could support it with a tab or two attaching it to the Mk VI and you're done with the feeding mechanism part.

I think that this may be a more simple arrangement for the hobbyist builder to build with basic tools, rather than turning the wheel itself. But hey, it's just an idea thrown out there.......There are many ways it could be done. Actually, even though I've played Devil's advocate, I think it's a very nice idea and could look very good and be very durable long term in execution. Not sure about the costs though.

[ssnow]

If I were doing this, I would simply be using a gear reduction motor and linkages. No air, PLC's or electronics. Nothing to be out of time with mechanical linkages.

Mostly because although I understand mechanics and wiring, I am almost completely computer and electronics illiterate, as is the case with most lawyer/politicians :)

Consider the possibilities........The shuttle could be as simple as a piece of 1/2"X 1" or similar flat stock with a couple of holes drilled in it, doesn't have to be anything fancy.

But the sky is the limit. I don't see anything wrong with your idea if that's the way you want to go.

[6bg6ga]

Your there with the activation of the ram.
You can use your idea or go simple. Two ways to look at this....1 ) the Mark VI feeder wheel 2) a feeder assembly

The following is the way I went.

I started with looking at what would be easy for me. I like the star bullet feeder and with a little work and control wiring it can be made to work. Your idea will also work but will require a bit more work.

To do mine I made the modifications as mentioned.

Shim the sizing die with a .133 spacer

104112

104113

Modify the bullet feeder to work with air cylinder and be triggered by a micro switch.

[6bg6ga]

The spacer allows the die to be moved up in the cavity which allows the base plate on the sizer a place to sit. The activity of the feeder on mine was controlled by an air cylinder that was internally spring loaded in the OUT position and has a 1" travel. The 1" travel is what is needed with a stock Star/Magma bullet feeder.

Now, I have given you this much. The activity is controlled thru micro switches in my case but you could opt for some advanced control which raises the price of the project.

[6bg6ga]

104114

Picture of my cylinder

cylinder is always in the out position and with air it retracts. a valve is energized by a micro switch to cycle the cylinder.

[6bg6ga]

Once you forget the idea of using the wheel the idea of feeding the Mark VI is easy. I'm not saying one couldn't activate the wheel (modified wheel) with a stepper motor but I think that returning to basics might be easier. I'm no Hatch and few here are on his level but this is one idea.


I think I am actually the one that mentioned in other threads that its easier to automate the Star/Magma than it is theMark VI since I had the idea of it since I unboxed the MArk VI upon its arrival.

[6bg6ga]

Point..

The commercial cylinder I used is rated for hundreds of thousands of cycles of usage. Being that I have a factory back ground I can mention that I've used this type of cylinder on production machines that were used by threes shifts per day 6 days a week and in over 20 years one was not lost to breakage.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Howdy Folks,

I'm not ignoring this thread. My compressor air pump decided to **** out and since I have to replace the air pump (About the same price as installing new piston rings.), I'm upgrading my piping system to black iron while I'm at it. New piping is in, will be removing old air pump tomorrow along with drilling/tapping holes for mounting new, larger and better air pump. So I'm kinda tied up at the moment.

Ah, the pleasure of chinese made tools (air pump from Campbell Hausfeld). I think I should have went with the Harbor Freight biggest one instead when I bought this one. Coulda gotten chinese quality for less money.:)

[jmorris]

I have never seen one of the sizers that you have but the one I built has rotary motion (turned linear) to feed the bullets into the die. A double acting solenoid is triggered, driving the ram down and back by the rotating bolt head, when the slide is all the way in.

Here is a video.
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/th_VID_20131008_114903_441_zpsdb21a12f.jpg (http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/VID_20131008_114903_441_zpsdb21a12f.mp4)

As far as it being possible, anything is possible. The entire machine above was built from recycled parts or "junk" as my wife calls it.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I have never seen one of the sizers that you have but the one I built has rotary motion (turned linear) to feed the bullets into the die. A double acting solenoid is triggered, driving the ram down and back by the rotating bolt head, when the slide is all the way in.

As far as it being possible, anything is possible. The entire machine above was built from recycled parts or "junk" as my wife calls it.

Building something out of recycled junk is a beautiful thing. I love that sizer. Right now I've got cheap as dirt build stuck in my head instead of high dollar build. Might not last for 50 jillion cycles, but it's for the house, so it doesn't have to.

[jmorris]

Might not last for 50 jillion cycles, but it's for the house, so it doesn't have to.

Well, I don't know about a Jillion cycles but that one is working on 10 years for my use.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Well, I don't know about a Jillion cycles but that one is working on 10 years for my use.

Just out of curiosity, what sort of motor are you driving the collator with? AC or DC? I'm guessing AC, with an optical or mechanical cut off switch in the bullet tube?

[jmorris]

It is a Dayton 2L006 dc gear motor, easy to adjust the speed vs AC. The switch is a mechanical limit switch.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/reloading/bullet%20feeder/IMG00341-20101213-1504.jpg

[2ridgebacks]

Jmorris, I would like more details on the collator and speed control. W 12 v it looked like about 5rpm. Maybe I'm wrong. I bought a 2loo6 for a bullet flipper wheel, but was going ac for the collator. I've chased you all over the web, but I haven't seen details of your build. The flipper will feed a ballisticast sizer and will use a 6" wheel and should have 12 positions. I'd like to go smaller if I can get the rpm up.

[jmorris]

Speed control is by simply changing the voltage fed into the motor. I use from 3-12v depending on what bullet I am collating. IIRC the 2L006 is 4.5 rpm at 12v.

Details are in post 10 and 11 here.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232791-Mr-Bullet-feeder-for-star

[2ridgebacks]

Understood. It is rated to 15 rpm though I believe. It is a 12v motor though, so will it last on higher voltage? Like I said, I'm using it on the flipper and could get away w a smaller wheel if I can turn it faster.

[jmorris]

Well they have other motors for that, the 2L009 that I use for the annealing machines is 17 rpm and can be slowed to zero.

Not sure how long a 4.5 rpm motor would last or what voltage it would take to get it to spin 15 rpm. They cost too much for me to let the smoke out of one testing it.

If you are going to build the collator anyway, just make the "flipper" like Rick does and drop the nose down bullets out instead of flipping them base down. The only reason I still use a rotary flipper is because the collator, spring and switch I use on the sizer is the one that comes off my reloading machine.

Here is the video Rick sent me.
http://s664.photobucket.com/user/qvideo/media/01PtDwnDAA_zps7a02454c.mp4.html

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

After looking over the items jmorris posted, doing some quick research on the internet (I've spent a lot of time lately fitting my 60 gallon compressor with a new/larger/better air pump after the original starting passing a lot of oil through the rings, so not as much research as I'd like to have done. I've come up with another idea or two.

My objective is to keep things as cheaply as possible, while having some sort of control over the automated process. In other words, not only do I want it to be automated, but I want the machine to start and stop when I want it to. So let's say I load a tube of 100 boolits onto the feeder setup. I'd like to start the machine, have it run for those 100 boolits, then shut off the process until I reload the next 100 boolits.

I'm not sure if this is the absolute cheapest with the parameters I've designed, so I'm throwing this idea out there. I'd rather not buy a feed system from another machine or build one if possible, but may find that to be the least expensive route in the long run. But right now, I'd like to go down this road and see which is least expensive. Here's my thoughts:

How hard would it be, instead of cutting a "toothed gear" to instead cut a groove suitable for a "O-ring" style vacuum cleaner belt? The reason I ask is I think it may be cheaper and simpler to use an inexpensive D.C. motor with a simple aluminum or even plastic pulley as a drive for the bullet feeder wheels on the Mark VI vs. an air cylinder and building/buying another type of feeder and adapting that feeder.

Here's my basic idea, everything sourced cheaply off of E-bay if possible:

1. PLC to control the timing of everything.
2. Air cylinder to operate handle with associated mechanical arms/doo-dads to attach it to the original operating arm.
3. Electrically opened air valve to control air cylinder, electricity/timing provided by PLC
4. Light duty D.C. motor with gear drive & pulley to operate feed wheel via belt.
5. Inexpensive D.C. motor drive control controlled by PLC
6. O-ring style drive belt from common vacuum cleaner belt, better grade.
7. Modified feed wheel (belt groove cut) into side of standard MK VI feeder wheel.
8. Home made sheet metal bracket mounted to original bolts on MK VI feeder surface area to support D.C. motor with gear drive.

I am thinking this would be affordable. The original feed wheels should be fairly easily modified by a machinist on a small metal lathe for not a lot of money, though I may be wrong on this one, setup time would be most of the time spent doing the job.

[2ridgebacks]

The problem with a v belt is hat there is no form of timing. The belt will slip with a jam or will slip over time. Depending on how the controls are set up, it could be a problem. On the other hand, a little slip is a good safety against damage. I was going to suggest a stepper motor and a bolt on gear on the dial. Robotshop would be a good place to look around and other online robot supply sites have much to offer. You can't forget eBay either.
Eta: If you have a good drill press, you can turn the groove and cut it with a round file.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

2ridgebacks: responses in red in the quote


The problem with a v belt is hat there is no form of timing. Timing provided by PLC, if that's possible, not sure that's the right control mechanism, as I'm not familiar with PLC's.

The belt will slip with a jam or will slip over time. Motor would be operated at a very slow speed, just enough speed to move the wheel to the next hole/boolit for the punch to operate. Speed is not an issue or an interest, due to the lack of safety type guards and as long as it's automated, it's freed me up from having to operate the machine. So turn it on, let it run and reload when it stops.

Depending on how the controls are set up, it could be a problem. Figured on operating the machine just fast enough to do the job and not a lot more. Motor would be DC, low current, so not much torque, but the aluminum wheels are light and easy to turn, even loaded with boolits.

On the other hand, a little slip is a good safety against damage. Yep

I was going to suggest a stepper motor and a bolt on gear on the dial. That was my original thought, but cost is an issue. Not sure a stepper motor could be bought and setup as cheaply, though it would provide finer control.

Robotshop would be a good place to look around and other online robot supply sites have much to offer. Got a link to their website? Sounds like there may be some potential there.

You can't forget eBay either. Planning on using ebay as the primary sourcing to keep things cheap. Used would be good here too.
Eta: If you have a good drill press, you can turn the groove and cut it with a round file. Unfortunately, all I have is the lowest end HF 5 speed. Not sure it turns straight enough to cut the groove accurately.

[2ridgebacks]

How are you triggering your PLC? That would be a question in need of answer.

How much have you used your MK VI? I've sized a few thousand now, and it gets a hitch in the feed wheel at least once a tube. Again, belt drive would be nice for this as it would slip. However, if you are counting revolutions on an encoder on the motor, you will be out of time. If you attach an encoder to the wheel, you would be okay. Attaching an encoder to the wheel will be tricky as you will either have to hire a machinist to bore it for triggers or find an encoder wheel with the proper number of triggers and the correct diameter. This is where a stepper would be nice and if you are going to have a plc, you would set it up to cycle the ram after the feed wheel has reached position. This could also be done with timer relays.
The other route to consider is to use the rotary motion that is already present with a linkage to crank arm to pick up and drop a bullet. You would only actually use one hole on the wheel for a bullet. You would have to drill and tap a mount for the linkage or adapt one of the holes in the wheel for a stud. Countersunk on the bottom and a flathead come to mind. I don't have my machine at my house, and I can't remember how far it rotates between pickup and drop (more or less than 180). Again, a trigger and control to cycle the ram. Plc or timer relay. Either would work.

I am a Millwright by trade in an auto plant and surrounded by Electricians and controls guys. In informal discussions on my entire process, the above have all been mentioned. I can't give you the specifics and I speak in generalities with a loose knowledge of the exact science. The say it can be done, and I trust in them.

[kayak1]

If one looks ok EPay one can normally find a stepper (small but should be all that's needed) for under $5 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-Stepper-Motor-Driver-Board-ULN2003-5V-4-phase-5-line-/390840080146?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5affe25712

[ssnow]

2Ridgebacks brings up a good idea in using a crank to turn the wheel using only one hole to feed the bullet. There is nothing preventing you from moving your feed tube inboard some if desired so that you can use a smaller wheel, and this would also give you the option of not having to turn it 180 degrees.

Again, I would be using a gear reduction motor and levers/cranks to do this job. You will be hard pressed to find a more economical solution, and it would most likely be more reliable and trouble free. www.surpluscenter.com has some gear motors at an attractive price if you are interested.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

2ridgebacks, in red in the quote:


How are you triggering your PLC? That would be a question in need of answer. And the question you just asked is one, perhaps the biggest, unknown I was looking for. I worked with robotic type scientific machines many, many years ago and PLC's weren't available then, so a control board had to be designed and built. Most digital control boards of that time needed some sort of sensor to tell the control a motion had completed and it was time for the next step. Some were reflective, some were transmitter to receiver/interrupt via flag, etc. I'm guessing the PLC acts like that.

How much have you used your MK VI? I've not been able to use it, first due to my Father dying, then due to an issue with the punch holder/ram and the punches I received. I'm currently waiting on punches from lathesmith. Once I get those, I'll be ready for operation/test.

I've sized a few thousand now, and it gets a hitch in the feed wheel at least once a tube. Do you know what the cause of the hitch is? If the original mechanism is that problematic, it may be worth it to switch to another type of feed mechanism less problematic. That's a fairly high failure rate.

Again, belt drive would be nice for this as it would slip. However, if you are counting revolutions on an encoder on the motor, you will be out of time. If you attach an encoder to the wheel, you would be okay. Right now, I'm thinking of reflective tape on the wheel, likely above the groove for the O-ring style belt. Should be doable, as it doesn't take much for a sensor to read that.

Attaching an encoder to the wheel will be tricky as you will either have to hire a machinist to bore it for triggers or find an encoder wheel with the proper number of triggers and the correct diameter. There may be simpler ways, such as the reflective tape I mentioned above. Alternates black and then silver, with the silver being placed for the trigger.

This is where a stepper would be nice and if you are going to have a plc, you would set it up to cycle the ram after the feed wheel has reached position. This could also be done with timer relays. More good information. I think kayak1 just posted a very inexpensive stepper motor with the controller board. Just have to control it and that's likely easy to do.

The other route to consider is to use the rotary motion that is already present with a linkage to crank arm to pick up and drop a bullet. You would only actually use one hole on the wheel for a bullet. You would have to drill and tap a mount for the linkage or adapt one of the holes in the wheel for a stud. Countersunk on the bottom and a flathead come to mind. This is an interesting idea, not sure if I could execute it though, as I have trouble visualizing this type of mechanical motion. But as I visualize it, you pick up a single bullet, then rotate to drop, then reverse rotation back to pick up another. Certainly doable. I don't have my machine at my house, and I can't remember how far it rotates between pickup and drop (more or less than 180). Just looks at mine. Looks to be right at 180 degrees. Again, a trigger and control to cycle the ram. Plc or timer relay. Either would work. Question is, which would provide more control, be cheap and easy to program without much training.

I am a Millwright by trade in an auto plant and surrounded by Electricians and controls guys. In informal discussions on my entire process, the above have all been mentioned. I can't give you the specifics and I speak in generalities with a loose knowledge of the exact science. The say it can be done, and I trust in them. Those are all very good ideas with solid, proven concepts behind them. Thank you for presenting them here. Lots to think about. Most decisions will be based on costs though. The cheaper it can be done, the better I'm thinking.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

If one looks ok EPay one can normally find a stepper (small but should be all that's needed) for under $5 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-Stepper-Motor-Driver-Board-ULN2003-5V-4-phase-5-line-/390840080146?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5affe25712

Hard to beat that price. Your ebay foo is better than mine. Thank you for posting. I'm going to have to save this link.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

ssnow, in red in the quote:


2Ridgebacks brings up a good idea in using a crank to turn the wheel using only one hole to feed the bullet. There is nothing preventing you from moving your feed tube inboard some if desired so that you can use a smaller wheel, and this would also give you the option of not having to turn it 180 degrees. The only problem is the punch has to have a hole to travel through as long as the original feed mechanism is used. But with a 180 rotation, then back, one could have a hole on each side of the wheel, one for the bullet and one for the punch to pass through when another bullet is picked up. Or one could size immediately after the boolit is delivered. But would this slow things down to a point you couldn't increase speed once the mechanism is figured out and safety is achieved?

Again, I would be using a gear reduction motor and levers/cranks to do this job. You will be hard pressed to find a more economical solution, and it would most likely be more reliable and trouble free. How about for the levers/cranks? Hand made or shelf bought? I'm thinking one might also use an air cylinder vs. a motor in this situation, thereby eliminating the motor and it's electronic controls. But not sure how much an air cylinder costs.

www.surpluscenter.com has some gear motors at an attractive price if you are interested. Thank you for the link. I'm going to have to visit that website and look around. How hard is it to come up with 24V vs. 12V control? Found a 25V motor that could likely do the job for 5 bucks on the website.

Lots of good ideas floating around in my head now. How about a mechanism to move the arm of the up and down? How to attach, how to move, etc? I originally was thinking air piston drive, but am now also thinking gear reduction motor. Would love to explore costs if anyone has enough information related to air cylinders vs. gear reduction motors mechanisms.

[2ridgebacks]

I don't like air. Too noisy and resource intensive. There are plenty of videos on YouTube of gearmotor and crank arms on presses, sizers, and casters. That gives you the reverse motion you seek. You wouldn't have to use the BC bullet wheel. Make another wheel and use their pivot point.
If you scrap the wheel, it is pure linear motion. Electric or air will work. You just need a slide and the appropriate stroke on the actuator.
As for the hitch, it is lube on the wheel or the bullet doesn't fall squarely. I need to do a little more looking. I haven't used mine that much either and I'm still trying to get past the "giggles" phase.

[jmorris]

How about a mechanism to move the arm of the up and down? How to attach, how to move, etc? I originally was thinking air piston drive, but am now also thinking gear reduction motor.

These are videos of different things that normally use handles or some motion other than rotary that I have driven with gear motors.

I also used cheap 555 IC's and built the timers for this one, if you have the time can save you money over a PLC.
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/th_VID_20131006_150354_097_zps0e25f739.jpg (http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/VID_20131006_150354_097_zps0e25f739.mp4)


http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/reloading/casepro/th_casepro.jpg (http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/reloading/casepro/casepro.mp4)

This is just a still photo but shows the clutch of the above machine, just set collars on a smooth shaft.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/reloading/casepro/DSC02024.jpg

This drive is also clutched just a different method.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/th_VIDEO0116.jpg (http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/VIDEO0116.mp4)


This one has no clutch but is intermittent so the driving force retracts from the work path.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/target/th_MOV02072.jpg (http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/target/MOV02072.mp4)

All different sorts of stuff going on here but a number of gear motors, timers and solenoids.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/th_autotargets.jpg (http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/autotargets.mp4)

This one actually uses a gear motor and lever for feeding and the same motor for timing and indexing.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/th_an1.jpg (http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/an1.mp4)

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

jmorris, in red in the quote again:


These are videos of different things that normally use handles or some motion other than rotary that I have driven with gear motors. Thank you for posting the pic/vids. Lots of useful information there. What I didn't/couldn't see much of is how you're attaching to the D.C. motor.

I also used cheap 555 IC's and built the timers for this one, if you have the time can save you money over a PLC. I have the time, but more importantly to build the circuit from scratch. It's been a long time now, but I was an electronics technician once upon a time. I know the 555 timers need a VCC and may or may not need to be isolated from the motors with a separate motor power supply and a transistor to handle the current load of the DC motor. So here's my questions: 1. Where/how did you source your D.C. power supplies? 2. What transistor and circuit did you use for the isolation from the DC motor? 3. Where did you buy components/boards/etc.? (It's been so many years since I worked in components, I no longer have sources and I know I'll need to order from somewhere.) I would also prefer to buy a pre-built project box to house the power supplies and control circuitry once it's built.

This is just a still photo but shows the clutch of the above machine, just set collars on a smooth shaft. Was the clutch hand-built or how did you acquire it? I'm going to have to come up with a way to attach to the motor and convert circular motion into linear for operating the handle and may need to do the same on the feeder mechanism if I convert to a straight line feed vs. a wheel. This is the tougher part for me, as I have no background related to mechanical motion.

This drive is also clutched just a different method. Okay, I'm not a hundred percent sure of the meaning of clutch/clutching in relation to these types of mechanisms, can someone elaborate for me?

This one has no clutch but is intermittent so the driving force retracts from the work path. Now that is beyond my mechanical aptitude and/or education to come up with.

All different sorts of stuff going on here but a number of gear motors, timers and solenoids. Too much for me to follow and understand in the vid.

This one actually uses a gear motor and lever for feeding and the same motor for timing and indexing. To me, this is a mechanical work of art. Looks and works fantastic, but I think again, perhaps beyond me. Not sure without handling it close up or perhaps a lot of still pics. Can't follow it moving.


Thank you for posting this stuff. Illustrates a lot of things and how to get them done. Wish I knew the names of those mechanical parts, so I could see about sourcing and pricing online. Lack of mechanical background is a hindrance to me in these situations.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

2ridgebacks, in red in quote again:


I don't like air. Too noisy and resource intensive. Didn't know that, but I just replaced and upgraded the air pump on my compressor as well as upgrading the lines to reduce water in the air. Certainly got complicated to keep up with and used lots of adapters/fittings which got costly for no more than what I was trying to do. The new, larger air pump was by far the least expensive part of the process.

There are plenty of videos on YouTube of gearmotor and crank arms on presses, sizers, and casters. Going to have to take a look at some of those to get ideas. It's looking simpler to do now, between your postings and jmorris pics/vids. I just need to know the vocabulary for mechanical stuff now. Any suggestions on websites to look out to learn the terminology/vocabulary so I'll know what I'm looking at is called? I'll need to know the names to source the stuff.

That gives you the reverse motion you seek. You wouldn't have to use the BC bullet wheel. Make another wheel and use their pivot point. Keeping the wheel vs. making an inline feeder is a point of conflict with me right now. I'm not sure which would reduce costs/simplify the mechanics the most. Again, cheaper is better if workable.

If you scrap the wheel, it is pure linear motion. Electric or air will work. You just need a slide and the appropriate stroke on the actuator. I hate to admit this, but I don't know what a slide or actuator are, because I don't know the terminology.

As for the hitch, it is lube on the wheel or the bullet doesn't fall squarely. I need to do a little more looking. This could be a problem for automation. I'd rather something be simpler/slower and work 100% than have something faster that hangs up.

I haven't used mine that much either and I'm still trying to get past the "giggles" phase. Not sure if I'm going to get a giggles phase as I've had it a couple years and haven't been able to use it. Too many irons in the fire to get to it, but I'm getting closer. As I do, I'm looking at automation due to wanting to buy myself some time to do other stuff.

[ssnow]

The only problem is the punch has to have a hole to travel through as long as the original feed mechanism is used. But with a 180 rotation, then back, one could have a hole on each side of the wheel, one for the bullet and one for the punch to pass through when another bullet is picked up. Or one could size immediately after the boolit is delivered. But would this slow things down to a point you couldn't increase speed once the mechanism is figured out and safety is achieved?

No. The feeder can be as simple as a piece of flat stock with one hole for the bullet, another hole for linkage attachment, and another hole for the pivot point. It would rotate like a wheel, that is to say you are still using rotation instead of linear motion.....but it does not actually have to have a wheel shape.



How about for the levers/cranks? Hand made or shelf bought? I'm thinking one might also use an air cylinder vs. a motor in this situation, thereby eliminating the motor and it's electronic controls. But not sure how much an air cylinder costs.

The only electronic control I would use is a simple on/off switch. No air cylinder that needs controlled by a PLC.

Sure it's fine if you want to use air.......but don't do it thinking you are eliminating the motor's electronic controls, because you are now adding electronic controls to control your air cylinder and timing.

Now you can add assorted controls to a motor, for example to control speed.......but you don't have to. If you select a motor with a speed suitable to your application, then all you really need is an off/on switch.

Take a look at JMorris' third picture. You see a gear motor, and a crank/arm he has made for it. The motor simply rotates. The length of travel is dictated by all his linkages. That's all you need for handle movement; the motor, the arm, the linkage, and a attachment point on your handle.

Notice his linkage. It's a male rod end and a tube he has tapped for it. You can do that, but it may be easier in your situation to go the other way with it by using female rod ends, and buying a piece of all thread for your rod.....then just cut to length.


Thank you for the link. I'm going to have to visit that website and look around. How hard is it to come up with 24V vs. 12V control? Found a 25V motor that could likely do the job for 5 bucks on the website.

You can buy that sort of thing online, or at larger industrial supply houses. I have not bought anything along those lines in a few years and don't know the best supplier off hand. But if you buy a gear motor similar to the one pictured, and use a set up along those lines, you won't need them.

[jmorris]

The arms attach to the DC gear motors with 1x3/8" and 1x7/16 barstock. a hole drilled through them the diameter of the output gear. Then they were drilled and tapped 10-32, sawed into and one side drilled to the gap with a 13/64 drill, making the arm a clamp at that point. (photos of the sizer and caster attached) The clamps work as a "clutch" the same as the split set collars do, the tighter you tighten the screw, the more torque it will transfer before it slips. There are no keys in the drive.


A decent explanation of the timers are in post #6 of this thread. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?215485-Auto-caster&highlight=555+timer

The IC just triggers the relays, they cannot deal with the current that the motors require by themselves. The relay is the isolation. I bet all of that stuff came from RadioShack, except the power supply, a friend gave me the one I used and the 10 turn POT that came from the TI surplus store many years ago.

Time delay relays can be bought but if you buy more than one or two a PLC starts looking a lot better, they can be picked up for $100 new.

[jmorris]

This is from a member here that posted it in the special projects forum. Everything that you are looking for in a feeder, simple, not to hard to make, no electronics (yet) or pneumatics and looks to work great.


Click photo to play
http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac14/Gremlin460/th_MOV_0001_zps93566aa9.jpg (http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac14/Gremlin460/MOV_0001_zps93566aa9.mp4)

[ssnow]

He did a very nice job with his feeder design.

It's really as simple as that, add a gear motor to operate the handle, and you are done. No air, PLC's or timers or electronic controls to hassle with. Of course, you will still want air for your lube cylinder, or at least I would.

[jmorris]

I don't wax lube my bullets but I would use two motors. One to drive the press and one for the collator.

I only use timers for the casting machine. One for pour and one for a cool down delay.

I built the sizer without any controls except a switch to shut off when out of bullets (before I finished a collator) and the switch that drives the ram down and back.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

ssnow, in red again:


No. The feeder can be as simple as a piece of flat stock with one hole for the bullet, another hole for linkage attachment, and another hole for the pivot point. It would rotate like a wheel, that is to say you are still using rotation instead of linear motion.....but it does not actually have to have a wheel shape. The only problem with a flat bar is the next boolit down the tube is going to fall out without the support of the "wheel." Perhaps a wheel with just three holes: 1. One for the boolit. 2. One for the center post/bolt rotational center. 3. One for the linkage attachment.


The only electronic control I would use is a simple on/off switch. No air cylinder that needs controlled by a PLC.

Sure it's fine if you want to use air.......but don't do it thinking you are eliminating the motor's electronic controls, because you are now adding electronic controls to control your air cylinder and timing. At this point, air cylinders are out.

Now you can add assorted controls to a motor, for example to control speed.......but you don't have to. If you select a motor with a speed suitable to your application, then all you really need is an off/on switch. I think the 555 circuit and isolation DPDT setup is inexpensive enough, it would be worth it to allow for setting up timing between the feed mechanism/motor and the punch drive mechanism/motor. Would allow for first setting up timing, then speeding up the process once a suitable ratio is determined and finally, allow a timed shutoff. All for a few bucks if memory serves on those components. I have most of what I need to build those circuits except the boards and the electronic components themselves. Will have to price them at radio shack.

Take a look at JMorris' third picture. You see a gear motor, and a crank/arm he has made for it. The motor simply rotates. The length of travel is dictated by all his linkages. That's all you need for handle movement; the motor, the arm, the linkage, and a attachment point on your handle. I agree, except I'd rather have the ability to fine tune when it comes to the interaction of the two drives, even though it adds some cost.

Notice his linkage. It's a male rod end and a tube he has tapped for it. You can do that, but it may be easier in your situation to go the other way with it by using female rod ends, and buying a piece of all thread for your rod.....then just cut to length. Yes, pretty simple and that was what I was thinking of doing, as all thread is commonly available at the local hardware store.

You can buy that sort of thing online, or at larger industrial supply houses. I have not bought anything along those lines in a few years and don't know the best supplier off hand. But if you buy a gear motor similar to the one pictured, and use a set up along those lines, you won't need them. Right now I'm leaning more towards the 555 timer circuits as they're cheap, effective and fine tune-able.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

This is from a member here that posted it in the special projects forum. Everything that you are looking for in a feeder, simple, not to hard to make, no electronics (yet) or pneumatics and looks to work great.
J, Thanks for posting this. That is pure genius. What I'm thinking now is how to get his basic design to operate off of the mechanism of the MK VI. Pretty sure it'd be pretty easy. That eliminates one motor completely, greatly improves on the reliability of the feed mechanism and simplifies it as well as keeping it in time with the punch mechanism irrelevant. Once adapted, all you'd need to do is make tubing for various sized boolits as well as a few bushings for the feeder mechanism to match boolit sizes. Looks real inexpensive to make as well. Then just add a drive motor for the arm and related linkage with a potentiometer to slow/speed it up and you're done. Can't get much more price reduced than that.

[jmorris]

I got off track on my thinking and may have posted some less than usefull information. Do you have a video of the machine in manual operation?

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

He did a very nice job with his feeder design.

It's really as simple as that, add a gear motor to operate the handle, and you are done. No air, PLC's or timers or electronic controls to hassle with. Of course, you will still want air for your lube cylinder, or at least I would.

ssnow,

I agree totally. I already have an air setup for my lube cylinder, so that's a non-issue, though I'm looking real strong at going to a two part epoxy lube like Jmorris uses for a lot of his boolits. Not sure of the time savings vs. lube sizer yet though.

[angus6]

How are you triggering your PLC? That would be a question in need of answer.

How much have you used your MK VI? I've sized a few thousand now, and it gets a hitch in the feed wheel at least once a tube. Again, belt drive would be nice for this as it would slip. However, if you are counting revolutions on an encoder on the motor, you will be out of time. If you attach an encoder to the wheel, you would be okay. Attaching an encoder to the wheel will be tricky as you will either have to hire a machinist to bore it for triggers or find an encoder wheel with the proper number of triggers and the correct diameter. This is where a stepper would be nice and if you are going to have a plc, you would set it up to cycle the ram after the feed wheel has reached position. This could also be done with timer relays

This sounds like the way our automation guy at work was talking about doing to one when I was looking at one, in the end I picked up a Lube Master instead