Colt Official Police misfires

[Battis]

I've been reloading rounds for a 1949 Colt Official Police .38 (fairly new to reloading). I've been using DEWC bullets, Red Dot and CCI primers. I'd say at least half of the reloads need two hammer hits to ignite. Every factory round fires on the first strike, so it must be my reloading, not the gun.
I was told that CCI primers are made from harder metal. I bought some Winchester primers that I'm going to try.
Is the answer as simple as just seating the primers deeper?

[lefty o]

primers need to be seated to the bottom of the pocket. if not seated, the first strike of the hammer seats them, but absorbs enough of the impact that the primer doesnt fire.

[HeavyMetal]

Your problem is the CCI primers most I've used a very hard but Remington SP are really hard!

Winchester or Federal are my got to primers when ever I can find them.

Try a primer change and see if that works, about seating primers deeper: Ues a Lee hand tool to prime some case's and you'll "feel" the primer bottom out in the case.

Now for the bad news: most primer pockets are not as deep as they should be! Buy a primer pocket uniforming tool, not a cleaner, and see how much brass comes out of a stock primer pocket.

You'll find your primers are now going to seat in that case in the much talked about " just under the case head" suggested by all the gun rag reloading "experts"!

Trying to ram the primer into the pocket will just give you deformed primers and maybe a bang for you efforts, LOL!

Try different primers until you get the ignition you want!

[Naphtali]

Does the same problem occur when firing factory 38 Special ammunition? I ask because I owned the same model. The mainspring-rebound lever was improperly tuned. The result was frequent light hits on primers.

[Battis]

So far, the factory ammo has not been a problem (other than its price) No misfires at all. I'll try a Lee hand tool and pocket uniforming tool, and Winchester primers.

[canyon-ghost]

Using a Ram Prime (RCBS), I install Winchester primers to .004" below the case head. You can measure that with the probe end of a dial caliper. It means seating primers well below the case head. I've heard of guys having primers stop the revolver, they call it 'high primers'. It's never happened to me.

Good Luck,
Ron

PS: Those gold colored Winchester primers are pretty good.

[44man]

Old hammer spring, lost tension. Primers need a good strike for accuracy anyway, put a new spring in the gun. When you need to look for easier primers, you have a bad spring.

[Outpost75]

The Colt mechanism is quite different than the S&W with respect to how the parts interact, and people who don't understand its workings who attempt "trigger jobs" produce unintended consequences which reduce hammer throw, etc. If the gun has been shot a great deal, cylinder end shake and loosened headsoace can also affect driven protrusion. The suggestions to uniform and clean primer pockets, then hand seat a different primer, such as Federal 100 should work. If not, you need to find a gunsmith who knows Colts.

[Herb in Pa]

Is it possible that the reloads are not seating fully in the cylinder and that the first hit seats the cartridge fully, so that the second hit fires.........

[waksupi]

I contacted CCI about this some years ago. I was told that the primers are cut more sharply than others, and need a very firm seating in the primer pocket. After I found this out, and consciously used a bit more force in seating, the problem went away.

[Battis]

The fact that factory ammo works every time makes me think it's the primers or the way I seat them, and not the mainspring. There doesn't seem to be excessive cylinder movement, but I plan to get a set of feeler gauges to check. And it is possible that the reloads aren't seating far enough into the cylinder. Like I said, I'm betting it's user era (mine) and not the gun.

[Scharfschuetze]

Try the Remington 1 1/2 SP primer. It has a soft cup and works well without missfires in my S&W PPC revolver where other primer brands sometimes require a second strike.

[smkummer]

I have many Colt DA revolvers. While the problem could be a lightened V mainspring, I would first check that the primers are absolutely flush or more when seating. The issue first shows up shooting double action, as single action makes the hammer go farther back. The old cop trick was to cock the gun with a awl or hammer punch to bend the mainspring to make both single and double action lighter. This worked fine until one started getting misfires in double action.

[rintinglen]

If factory works and reloads don't, It ain't the gun. Lefty O hit the nail on the head. My 4 inch Python will do the same thing, if I don't seat the primers fully. I ran into the problem a couple years back when I moved and had no where to set up my presses, so I was using a Lee Hand press, and a Lee Priming Tool. The hand press worked great, but the Priming tool relied on my thumb to seat the primers and as the priming session went on, I found that primers were not bottoming out when seated, resulting in exactly the situation you find yourself in.
Seat them boogers fully and I think your missfires will go away.

[leftiye]

The fact that factory ammo works every time makes me think it's the primers or the way I seat them, and not the mainspring. There doesn't seem to be excessive cylinder movement, but I plan to get a set of feeler gauges to check. And it is possible that the reloads aren't seating far enough into the cylinder. Like I said, I'm betting it's user era (mine) and not the gun.

Unless your cases have thin for caliber rims, and/or your gun has excess headspace, it isn't the cases not chambering completely.

It's your primer seating, or light hammer strikes.
My new (to me) Officer's model had a thick moly grease all over in the insides. Cycling and hammer fall were noticeably easier/faster when it was removed and good old Outer's gun oil substituted. Dirt would do exactly the same effect. But even dirty guns fire, and Colt hammer springs almost never wear out. Check the primers. I've even lightened Colt trigger return spring (back side of mainspring) by shortening (instead of making the spring thinner) them without losing hammer speed to the point of ignition problems.

[Battis]

I loaded up 18 rounds using the Remington 1 1/2 primers. I tried DA and SA and all was good. Every round but one fired on the first strike. The one misfire was most likely Loader Era again. With the CCI primers, 10 out of 18 would have misfired.

[mainiac]

I have a 14 smith that someone worked over years ago,,has very light trigger,and a very light hammer spring.cci will hardly ever light on the first whack.ww,rem, fed,,lights everytime. So i beleave cci is made with harder cup or something....

[Battis]

That's what they told me at KTP - the CCI primers are harder metal.
While we're talking about 38 SP - I've been using approx. 3.2 grs Red Dot, and it's a nice, easy load. I also have a Ruger Speed Six 38/357. Using Red Dot, what would be a good +P or .357 load with the DEWC?

[leftiye]

I have a 14 smith that someone worked over years ago,,has very light trigger,and a very light hammer spring.cci will hardly ever light on the first whack.ww,rem, fed,,lights everytime. So i beleave cci is made with harder cup or something....

Have you cranked up (inwards) the tension screw for the mainspring? There are reduced and replacement springs widely available.

[mainiac]

Have you cranked up (inwards) the tension screw for the mainspring? There are reduced and replacement springs widely available.
Nope.... havent even had the grips off it. All i ever bought/shot was rugers for years.Now ive been bitten by the 8-3/8" barrelled smiths,and cant seem to shake the things.I know nothing about the guts of a smith. But now that you mentioned it,i may have to peek in there sometime.

[Char-Gar]

I've been reloading rounds for a 1949 Colt Official Police .38 (fairly new to reloading). I've been using DEWC bullets, Red Dot and CCI primers. I'd say at least half of the reloads need two hammer hits to ignite. Every factory round fires on the first strike, so it must be my reloading, not the gun.
I was told that CCI primers are made from harder metal. I bought some Winchester primers that I'm going to try.
Is the answer as simple as just seating the primers deeper?

Every primer rifle or handgun regardless of caliber should be seated in firm contact with the bottom of the pocket. You can feel when the primer hits bottom. You don't want to crush the priming compound, just be certain the anvil is fully in contact with the pocket bottom.

If your equipment doesn't allow this "feel", sell it and get equipment that does. Both reliability and accuracy goes south unless the primers are seated correctly.

[leftiye]

Plus 1! A hand operated (like one of several offered by RCBS over the years) primer seater is one of the basic accuracy (not to mention consistency/reliability) tools. Unless you're running a Dillon or something like that, you will benefit from a good primer seater versus the thang on your main press. If you are primarily interested in good accurate handloads - get one! If you are running a Dillon or something like that, or using the seater on your press, your seating operation is up in the air as for consistency.

[leftiye]

Nope.... havent even had the grips off it. All i ever bought/shot was rugers for years.Now ive been bitten by the 8-3/8" barrelled smiths,and cant seem to shake the things.I know nothing about the guts of a smith. But now that you mentioned it,i may have to peek in there sometime.

I know what you mean. I started with the old smiths and colts, and though I've shot, worked on Rugers, the feel and quality of the Smiths and Colts, (almost makes one salivate) just is very hard to choose against. I like ruger single actions, but the double actions just look, feel, balance wrong.

[Char-Gar]

Plus 1! A hand operated (like one of several offered by RCBS over the years) primer seater is one of the basic accuracy (not to mention consistency/reliability) tools. Unless you're running a Dillon or something like that, you will benefit from a good primer seater versus the thang on your main press. If you are primarily interested in good accurate handloads - get one! If you are running a Dillon or something like that, or using the seater on your press, your seating operation is up in the air as for consistency.

About 20 years ago, I jumped on the Dillon progressive bandwagon, but soon jumped off when I fired an overcharged round loaded on the thing. The primer seating depth was also erratic.

There are any number of ways to seat primers correctly. I use RCBS priming tools, both hand held and bench mounted and they are good. Lyman 310 priming dies in the tong tool also work, but you need to rotate the case a time or two to get even seating.

Priming can also be done on a single stage or turret press. I have some old Pacific C presses that I use and even my big RCBS A2 will allow you to feel the primer seat properly.

The bottom line is, if you care about accuracy and reliability, pay attention to your priming. It is important.

[44man]

Notice the anvil on primers "stick up" a little. When seating it must be pushed flush to sensitize the compound. Hand tools do a great job and my old Lee is still working because I get the "feel."
Yet they still need struck hard enough and the first thing I do with a new Ruger or BFR is to change the hammer springs to over power, 26# Wolff variable springs. For rifle primers like the .450 Marlin, they need 28#. Ruger springs take a set after time.
Too many guns have been fooled with and to need a different primer means something is wrong. The old trick of backing off the strain screw on S&W's or thinning the spring for a better trigger pull is false. Do the work on sear surfaces and trigger springs and leave the hammer springs strong.
You just fool yourself by needing a softer primer.

[Battis]

"You just fool yourself by needing a softer primer."

2 gunshops told me that the CCI primer metal was harder. Other shooters also said that. I switched to Remington 1 1/2 primers and the problem was solved. Then again, it's possible that I was messing up when seating the primers, not setting them deep enough. Maybe I'll try the CCI again.

[Char-Gar]

"You just fool yourself by needing a softer primer."

2 gunshops told me that the CCI primer metal was harder. Other shooters also said that. I switched to Remington 1 1/2 primers and the problem was solved. Then again, it's possible that I was messing up when seating the primers, not setting them deep enough. Maybe I'll try the CCI again.

I don't think there is any argument that CCI primers tend to be harder. The point 44man was trying to make (I think) is that any revolver with full strength factory springs will reliably fire CCI primers. When folks start to put in softer springs or clip coils and all of that kind of stuff, it doesn't take long to reduce the firing pin impact on the primer and induce ignition problems, which shows up first with CCI primers.

I happen to agree with 44man, that if your revolver won't reliably pop CCI primers, you don't have a primer problem, you have a spring problem.

I stopped jacking with sixgun springs 30 years ago. A super light DA or SA trigger pull often comes at the cost of reliable ignition. It isn't just a matter of the primer going "pop". It needs a good strong smack for proper ignition. Sometimes with lighten hammer strike you can get lazy ignition which reduces accuracy.

[SirMike1983]

My preference would be to set that hammer spring to ignite any common primer and do it reliably. I like my revolvers as dead reliable as I can get them.

I actually experienced the opposite with my USFA Single Action and Sellier and Bellot ammunition. The metal of the primer cup tended to overly deform and wash around the firing pin to the point that the wash was holding up the cylinder. They fired fine out of my Smith Model 10. My guess is that the Smith firing pin has a bit of float to it and a blunter point, avoiding the soft primer metal issue. The USFA is a Colt clone with a fixed, conical pin that has no apparent give. My primers of choice for reloading are Winchester. Knock on wood, they function well in all my sixguns.

[Battis]

Thinking about it, I agree with the reasoning that it should fire with any primer, even the harder CCIs. It's not a carry gun and I don't depend on it, but it should work every time.
I will try the CCIs again, though I really do think I was setting them too shallow. If the CCIs still don't fire, then, like 44man said, something is wrong and should be made right.
Thanks for the input.

[Battis]

I cleaned out the flash holes on 12 cases and popped in primers (no bullets or powder), really cranking them into the holes. All 12 fired on DA. So, it most likely was Loader Era. All of the factory ammo fired with no misfires.
For the heck of it, I measured the thickness of the CCI and Remington 1 1/2 primers, and there is a difference.

CCI .1155"
Remington .1225"

[leftiye]

My preference would be to set that hammer spring to ignite any common primer and do it reliably. I like my revolvers as dead reliable as I can get them.

I actually experienced the opposite with my USFA Single Action and Sellier and Bellot ammunition. The metal of the primer cup tended to overly deform and wash around the firing pin to the point that the wash was holding up the cylinder. They fired fine out of my Smith Model 10. My guess is that the Smith firing pin has a bit of float to it and a blunter point, avoiding the soft primer metal issue. The USFA is a Colt clone with a fixed, conical pin that has no apparent give. My primers of choice for reloading are Winchester. Knock on wood, they function well in all my sixguns.

I'd guess an oversized firing pin hole on the USFA.

[leftiye]

P.S. Them Rem 1 1/2 primers aren't just softer, they're SOFT! they'll perforate at pressures that other primers don't even think about burping over.

[44man]

I don't think there is any argument that CCI primers tend to be harder. The point 44man was trying to make (I think) is that any revolver with full strength factory springs will reliably fire CCI primers. When folks start to put in softer springs or clip coils and all of that kind of stuff, it doesn't take long to reduce the firing pin impact on the primer and induce ignition problems, which shows up first with CCI primers.

I happen to agree with 44man, that if your revolver won't reliably pop CCI primers, you don't have a primer problem, you have a spring problem.

I stopped jacking with sixgun springs 30 years ago. A super light DA or SA trigger pull often comes at the cost of reliable ignition. It isn't just a matter of the primer going "pop". It needs a good strong smack for proper ignition. Sometimes with lighten hammer strike you can get lazy ignition which reduces accuracy.
Exactly. A primer that just fires is wrong in any gun even a bolt action. EVEN soft cup primers need struck right. It is hard to convince anyone when they get wrong info or read rags.

[Char-Gar]

Exactly. A primer that just fires is wrong in any gun even a bolt action. EVEN soft cup primers need struck right. It is hard to convince anyone when they get wrong info or read rags.

Hard to convince most, impossible to convince some, but still the fight goes on.

[Battis]

Kinda hard to see where this is going, or where it went, but I did post that 44man was right and something is wrong if the gun won't pop all primers, but then I also said that I wasn't seating the CCI primers deep enough. The gun and spring are fine. It fires factory ammo perfectly, and CCI primers if I seat them correctly.

[cuzinbruce]

I have a Colt Officer's Model Target which is the same gun you are talking about, but with target sights. It is about the same age and well used. I load CCI primers all the time without problems. I don't think that gun has ever misfired. About seating primers, RCBS has a primer depth gage that is not real expensive. It is a Go-NoGo type gage, just a steel cylinder about 2 inches long with a small protrusion on each end. You put an end against the bottom of the primed case and see if it rocks. Works on all calibers and primer sizes.
Bruce

[Char-Gar]

The old Colt DA sixguns used a V spring and could have a pretty stiff DA pull. It was common to insert a drift punch or drill bit between the legs of the V and cock the hammer once or twice. This would put a slight bend in the spring and lighten the DA trigger pull noticeably. Use too big a punch/pin and you could lighten the hammer strike too much. That is always something of which to be aware when dealing with these old Colts.

[Char-Gar]

Kinda hard to see where this is going, or where it went, but I did post that 44man was right and something is wrong if the gun won't pop all primers, but then I also said that I wasn't seating the CCI primers deep enough. The gun and spring are fine. It fires factory ammo perfectly, and CCI primers if I seat them correctly.

I don't think any of that last exchange was directed toward you. It is just a general frustration that so many folks want to blame the make of primer for their spring issues. The fact that CCI primers are harder gets them blamed for faulty ignition that most often is the result of weak springs or improperly seated primers. There are lots and lots of psudo-experts out there, putting out all kinds of erroneous information. That was the concern and it had nothing to do with you.

The shooting world is festooned with folks who hear something or read something and assume it to be true and repeat it. After it have been repeated enough times, it becomes accepted as truth, when in fact it never was. We have more than our fair share of this kind of stuff on this board and it is very difficult if not impossible to shake folks loose from this kind of stuff. They will defend bad information to the death.

The internet has given us a host of instant experts, the vast majority of which lack either the education or extensive experience to know what is truth and what is "rot" as the British say.

[Battis]

"I don't think any of that last exchange was directed toward you."
Phew...