for everyones info on rust blueing

[johnson1942]

just finished a new barrel for a new gun im building. i used express brown mark lee from brownells. heated the barell to 350 in my oven. had two two by fours on the stove top to lay it on when rust blue applied. did several coats then let heat in oven for 1/2 hour with no carding. have a pvc piece of pipe. filled with hot boiling water and a small amount of bakeing soda. put the barrel in the hot water for 45 min. when it came out i washed it down and being it was quite warm it dried off in seconds. oiled it down and look better than if i would have done a 125 dollar hot blue job. deep black and perfect. saved a lot of money and does it look good. just want to pass it on so others can do the same and get a perfect job and save a bundle.

[mj2evans]

Was this for a modern rifle or a muzzle loader?

I ask because I am trying to get up the nerve to build a nice 36 cal muzzle loader.

[oldred]

You KNOW better than that! You know the rules, without pictures it didn't happen!!!!!! :mrgreen:

[oldred]

All joking aside you have me really curious about that no carding method, I may just have to try a piece of scrap because I don't have a project ready yet. It sounds really interesting and I am going to give it a try, thanks for the info.

[johnson1942]

its a paperpatch muzzle loader 30 inch barrel from the oregon rifle barrel co. probably leaded steel. i just sanded all the scratches out with 220 emery paper and boy did it color up. i would put pictures on but dont know how. when the whole thing is done im going to have a friend help me post pictures on the stock finishing sticky of the whole gun. the finish is drying really slow. i dont card because im lazy and dont see a need for it yet. i just heat it warmer than recommended and keep putting layer after layer of rust solution on. when it wont take any more i let heat for awhile then into boiling water it goes. so far it really has been flawless. i cant quite close the oven door so i put a short dowel on that button that keeps the oven on and that worked just fine. i also got so sick of my stock finish not drying as it should i put the stock in the south door where the glass outer door makes it really hot. i thought i might as well kill it or cure it. well finally it is drying. gets to about 125 degrees inbetween the doors. about a week of that and i should be able to rub it out and put it together. had it together in the rough and even sighted it in. really drives tacks. mi2evens. go for it as if you take your time and ask questions you can end up with a really good muzzle loader. if your looking for a co. to cut a barrel to your specs. the oregon barrel co sure are good at what they do. also im not says one shouldnt card between coats. all i have left to rust blue is the lock and and the screws. all the rest is brass.

[waksupi]

I'm confused from the OP. did you use the brown, or the blue?

[johnson1942]

i just let out a big im a dumb -----. your right, it was the rust brown, but ive used both before and they usually turn out the same for me. love the stuff as it gives me controll over more of building a gun and less handing out the dollars for help. when i had two 1/2 bottles of the blue and brown ive even mixed them and they still come the black. some dont like the black but i do. sorry i miss led, must be the west nile.

[Fishoot]

I learned this same process from a friend. However, he did not use the baking soda. What does the soda do for the process?

[waksupi]

I learned this same process from a friend. However, he did not use the baking soda. What does the soda do for the process?

It neutralizes the rusting agent.

[oldred]

Very quick-n-dirty experiment today with the no-card process as described here using a piece of mild steel plate. Heated it 300 deg. using a propane torch and an IR thermometer then 4 cycles of the Mark Lee rust BLUE/heating(not brown because I don't have the browning version) then boiled in distilled water, danged if it didn't come out super nice! I think you just may be on to something here, this seems to work so good I am going to move on to the barrel part of the project I am working on and skip the rest of it until I can try this method on a real gun part. The barrel is a Green Mountain barrel made of 4140 steel so it might be that the 4140 will not work so good, however it comes out I will let you know but regardless I think you have come up with a neat trick here that is certainly worthy of passing on.


How long do you wait between coats and do you re-heat between coats?

[waksupi]

Pictures! We NEED PICTURES!

[oldred]

Ok I've been at it some more and I'm convinced this method is far easier than the directions say to do it, in fact it's directly contradictory to the directions on several steps! The color is turning out the same, if anything is even darker in bright sunlight, and it's definitely as durable as the conventional way of doing it as evidenced by the fact I intentionally over scuffed it with the steel wool without harm. I tried to take some pics but they really were not very useful considering they are just irregular shaped pieces of steel plate that look dark but I will use this method soon on some real parts and I will get those up. This has been nothing short of amazing and from now on I just can't envision doing it according to the directions anymore, this is MUCH easier!!!!

[rking22]

Please update on the 4140 , I have had very good results with older/softer barrels , not so much so with more modern steels. Need to try this method meself!
Thanks for posting.

[oldred]

Rking, I have had serious problems rust bluing a 4140 receiver a year or so ago and the barrel, also 4140 turned out only marginally better so I ended up polishing them and hot bluing. Other folks I have talked with since have had both good and bad experiences with it and the best I can tell at this point, I need to test some more, is that 4140 seems to blue ok using the slow process but not so good with the express formulas. My theory, and a metallurgist I spoke with agrees with me, that the Chromium content makes for uneven rusting and actually impedes the process somewhat but for whatever the reason the slow method does seem to work better for most folks. In any case I found that a surface finish finer than 240 grit did not work well at all on that particular part and even when I re-did it with the courser grit I could never get a satisfactory coloring, basically I just wound up with a mottled blue/grey that looked decent in artificial light but not so good at all in sunlight. Now I am basing this on one incident of my own and what I gathered from talking with a few others but in the next few days I hope to try this again using the method outlined by the OP here and see if it does any better, from what I know now I would only attempt the slow method when working with 4140.

[johnson1942]

the muzzle loader barrel i did and posted about had a spot i didnt like but is was on the underside in the stock. i could have left it but i wanted to see if i could fix it with my wifes hair dryer. i washed the barrel with dish soap and warm water totally grease free. then i heated that spot to very warm with the hair dryer. i kept puting a coat of mark lee express brown on then drying it with the hair dryer. i did about a dozen coats like this then let it sit over night and put in a pvc pipe of boiling tap water the next morning. i put a couple heaping table spoons of bakeing soda in the water and let sit for a hour. washed it down with soap and water again and rubbed in floor wax. i let it sit for a day then rubbed in motor oil. a days later wiped dry. my wife even said how good it looks. the spot totally went away and after i boiled the barrel i did the lock with the hair dryer but the polished screws i heated in the oven and dipped several times in mark lee solution. now i wish the stock would be as easy. it must be the damper year as im just going to have to let the stock sit a month or so to completely dry. i think if i would have bead blasted the metal parts they would have even rust browned even better.

[oldred]

What was the final grit paper you finished with prior to applying the solution? I just did an odd piece of 8620 today (a common receiver material) and finished one side to 240 grit and the other to 180 and I honestly can't tell much difference in gloss although the side done with the 180 took on the rust coating faster and seemed to come out darker. This was an irregular piece, kind of half-moon shaped 1" thick by about 6" long and out in the sun it is a bit uneven in color on both sides, I rushed this a bit and I am thinking it needed another cycle or two but it sure was coming along nicely. I will glass bead the next piece on one side and sandblast the other, hopefully in the next day or two, and see what that does using this new procedure but at this point it looks promising enough to attempt that barrel sometime this coming week and when I do I will get up some pics.

[johnson1942]

i used 220 grit on the barrel and the only reason i didnt bead blast it is the machine that i use at the local blacksmith is down. his beads are usually gritty and dirty and that gives a little better blast which i like. i like a deep matte finish as the rusting solution can really penetrate. then when you wax it when it is done and later oil it that really gets into the pores also. the lock plates surface was really shiny smooth and it took longer to do but its turned out really nice also. i think if you let the final coat sit over night and boil the next morning that really works good also.

[rking22]

oldred ,thanks for the info , thought it may have been something I did different. I think I will try this process on a BTA90 I picked up a while back. Frame rusts everytime I even look at it! Bought it cheap due to apearance just as a project, but it shoots very well so a little extra effort will be rewarded!

[oldred]

thought it may have been something I did different.


Did yours have the slightly mottled finish that seemed to have "thin" spots? Also did you use a slow formula or the express type? I am just comparing notes here.

[rking22]

Oops , just checked back. I used the Laurel Mountain Forge solution and slow process. THe barrel came out great , the frame just quit rusting before I had the depth I wanted. Gun was a 1959 vintage Browning SA22 I picked up CHEAP due to rusting on exterior. I don't think it was ever shot, Till I got it anyway. Any way the frame and barrell were both taken to the same level of finish before starting, only thing that made sense was a difference in the steel or in the heattreat. Watching this thread for updates.

[oldred]

Not quite sure how heat treat could affect the same alloy but apparently it does, the 4140HT (pre-hard) is noticeably more difficult to rust blue than the annealed 4140.

[rking22]

interesting, thanks for the direct comparrison. I could guess something to do with he grain structure but just that , a guess. id you get a passable finish on the 4140 pre treat? I suspect that the BTA frame is 4130 or 4140 and it is heat treated for certain. I think I am going to try it in July , can always powder coat if I don't like it. Some time invested in "reasearch".