H&R Buffalo Classic Questions

[jonp]

I called H&R for answers but after 20min on hold I hung up and thought you guys could help on this.

1) What is the relative strength of the H&R compared to, say, a Marlin Lever?

2) If I get a regular H&R 22in can I send it in to get the longer 32in barrel? I know the stock and forend are different but will that work and how about vice versa? Could I get the Buffalo Classic and get the shorter barrel to hunt with in several calibers like 357Mag, 243 etc?

This would seem to me to be a good idea as I could get 2 rifles for the same price as one of the Buffalo Classics however without the old time stock and forearm

3) I have read that the Pardner Shotgun Stocks will swap on the Classic with no fitting. Is this true?

[nicholst55]

1. The SB-1 actions are suitable for .45-70 ammo loaded to Ruger-only pressures. Most shooters shoulders give up long before the rifle.
2. Yes, yes, yes. Barrels must be factory-fitted, and your forearm must be included.
3. Yes.

If you go to the Graybeard Outdoors forums, they have a very informative H&R sub-forum there.

[armalite53]

Read with interest nicholst55's comment about the strength of the SB-1 action. I had the impression that the break-open actions were proofed for the "trapdoor" loads, (about 28,000 cup). When you say "Ruger" do you mean the #1/#3 action? I recall these as being very strong actions for the 45-70, on the par with the Siamese Mauser.

[bubba.50]

the buffalo classic is on an sb2(steel) frame & will handle anything that's safe to use in that action design. as mentioned above, sign up over at graybeard & you can learn more than you ever thought there was to know about handi-rifles. they've got a pretty massive fan base there that call themselves "handi-holics".

luck & have a good'en, bubba.

[John Boy]

Here's the link for NEF discussion on Graybeard ... http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/hr-centerfire-rifles/?PHPSESSID=o7k17dfogo7pv01llsmaitk4j5

[jonp]

Excellent info.Thanks.

I understood nichols got the action number wrong as i went to h&r site first. Im going to try some surplus powder for target just for kicks and thot it mite be a good rifle to start with. I had one in 243 a number of years ago and after some tinkering with loads it was a tackdriver

[bubba.50]

my buffalo classic with 340 lee boolits lubed with wil-gen's beeswax mixture loaded to blackpowder velocity is a tack-driver at 75yds. stout loads will very rapidly make you cuss that curved steel buttplate. I replaced my stock & fore-arm with a checkered walnut set from a topper deluxe classic plus a lead-filled piece of copper pipe & it's pleasant to shoot even if I pep it up just a bit but I still stay away from high-level loads. ruger loads are way too much in my opinion. lever-action levels would be more in line for this action.

[nicholst55]

NEF/H&R says that the high-pressure rifle receivers will withstand Marlin or Winchester 1886 load data, yet they chamber the same actions for higher pressure cartridges like the .500 S&W. Buffalo Bore cartridges says that they have tested the Handi with Ruger #1 or #3 level .45-70 loads with no problems, and endorse their heavy .45-70 loads for the Buffalo Classic. Several others have stated that they use Ruger #1-level loads in their Handi rifles all the time. Personally, I would expect that NEF/H&R knows what their rifles will safely digest on a regular basis - even though they do chamber it for a higher-pressure cartridge.

One big problem with the Buffalo Classic is that it is rather light for shooting heavy loads. That, and the curved steel buttplate are both against it! I would love to see NEF/H&R offer a version with a shotgun buttplate and a significantly heavier barrel. That, and sights that are actually the correct height for the rifle (the Lyman 17 front sight they use is normally too tall).

[Goatwhiskers]

What you can encounter with persistent heavy loads in the Ruger category is receiver stretch, which is the reason the factory doesn't chamber any of the magnums. Plus the deep bruising. In addition why do people want to push the upper limits? The 45/70 405gr boolit even an trap-door level loads will kill anything you're liable to pull the trigger on quite dead. GW

[jonp]

I've used curved steel buttstock firearms before and they pretty much dissuaded me from wanting to try 458Mag levels of loads in a single shot. I was interested in how strong the action was.

[doc1876]

the trapdoor is rated around 25000 cup, your Marlin is closer to 28000 and Ruger is around 35000. This is quite a difference. Most of us shoot around 32000 in our Sharps Rifles
for a better comparison, look up trapdoor CUP or you might find some good reading here

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121661-Strength-of-early-20th-century-rifles&highlight=45-70+preasures

[jonp]

the trapdoor is rated around 25000 cup, your Marlin is closer to 28000 and Ruger is around 35000. This is quite a difference. Most of us shoot around 32000 in our Sharps Rifles
for a better comparison, look up trapdoor CUP or you might find some good reading here

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121661-Strength-of-early-20th-century-rifles&highlight=45-70+preasures

thanks doc1876. I am also looking hard at a Chapparal 1876 45-60. I owned a large number of firearms at one time then kinda got too busy to play with them and sold off most. Now I'm interested in them again and since finding this sight have started casting so am looking towards old firearms which have always peaked my interest. A 300 Ultra kill-em from 1500yrds rifle is nice but an old 1892 or 1876 Lever is something that has always fascinated me. That and revolvers although I do own semi's for carry I have always loved revolvers first and foremost. That sure went off the track!!!!

[johnson1942]

on my buffalo classic i got a very very nice lace up real leather slip over pad for the curved butt plate from buffalo arms. i made a firm foam rubber piece that filled in the curved butt plate area. slipped on the pad and laced it up. look good and feels good. used to use reloader 7 with very good results but to make it even more comfortable to shoot i now use blackhorn 209 and recoil is very good and accracy is right on. really like the gun. also took of that plastic trigger guard and put on a ohio type trigger guard. really made it look better.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

pics of the trigger guard please!

[johnson1942]

ill see if my wife can put the pictures of the gun on here to day.

[johnson1942]

my modified buffalo classic. a diff. trigger guard, fore stock, and some weight added at the left hand palm level. barrel shortened to 28 inches. cryo treated and reblued. 1400 yard rear sharps buckhorn and leather lace up butt pad. back of barrel throated for 1 inch to .459. shoot a 450 grain .440 paperpatch bullet that i swage my self. a real tackdriver and well ballanced. going to use it for deer season next year. the front sight is a cal. brass blade.
104079

[scattershot]

Of course, you could make the argument that a man who can stand the recoil of Ruger #1 loads in a Handi Rifle probably doesn't need a rifle in the first place. But I digress.... Good advice above on Greybeard Outdoors. Lots of info and helpful folk there.

[rockrat]

I beleive the SB-1 is the weaker action and the SB-2 is the stronger action. Your shoulder will probably give out before you reach top levels with the SB2 action.

[kywoodwrkr]

What do steel or brass trigger guards and fore end piece for the H&R sell for? Where?
If available are they cast or milled?
Is there a more suitable butt plate available for the 1871 Buffalo?
Thanks

[johnson1942]

the trigger guard i got from the track of the wolf. the steel part that attaches to the forestock came from a old shotgun. the forestock i made my self out of rosewood. the extra weight under the beavertail type forestock was machined by a s.dak machinest. but didnt H and R sell the trigger guards and attachment to the forestocks as extra in steel a few years back? i know for a while they sold a delux buffalo classic with all steel parts and better blueing. i saw one in grandforks n,dak. as far as the butt plate goes just do as i did. i made a firm rubber piece to fit the hollow of the crescent shaped butt plate and then put a all leather lace up shot gun cover over it. recoil is nothing now. i bet their are many many buffalo classics out their that have been modified to fit the owners needs. they are so easy to work with.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

so did you just remove the bow part of the trigger guard and leave the plastic part that carries the pieces in the action?
I like the looks of that

[bubba.50]

somebody on graybeard did a run of steel triggerguards & fore-end irons a while back. don't know if any still available or not. midway had triggerguards listed in the last catalog I had from them but they were tucked in amongst some other unrelated parts & not easy to find.

[johnson1942]

glad to hear about the after market steel parts, as for what i did. i carefully cut off the bow part of the triggerguard and filed and sanded it smooth. then it just a matter of tapping two holes drilled in to the bottom of the action. that trigger guard comes in brass or steel and is of the ohio design for muzzleloaders. it makes it look almost like a saddle carbine. i should get a saddle ring like the old 94/s and put that on for decoration. the gun feels so much more ballanced when i added the weight where the forestock is. the hole was drilled in that piece so when i slipped it over the barrel it got tight their. it has a small hole drilled sideways through it at the bottom to accept a pin that barely touches the barrel. very secure. the bottom is drilled and tapped so the fore end can be held on by a screw. what i really like is how it shoots. the bullet goes where the sights are pointed with out fail.

[jonp]

Well, after reading these excellent posts and several pm's from helpful members I decided to go at the Classic from a different angle.

I got a regular h&r in 35 Whelen for $211 shipped. Just too good a price to pass up. I'm going to send it in to get the 45-70 Classic barrel and replace the forearm. I was going to remove the williams peep for a ladder anyways so no loss there. Johnson1942 put me onto the exact sight I have in mind so a big thank you to him for all of the advice and comments.

For the price of a Buffalo Classic alone I'll have 2 rifles although without case hardened colors but I'm ambivelant on that point. Thanks for all of the help.

[johnson1942]

both the 45/70 and the 35 whelen in my opinion are the best cartridges out their. have fun.

[NVScouter]

My friend does bronze casting art. Think there would be a market for trigger guards and barrel lugs for these?

I may have to work with him on mine to see if it'd be worth it for him to knock out some.

[Springfield]

Here is a cover I made for someone with bullet loops. It is also pretty easy to add some dense foam from the hardware store inside to dampen the hit to your shoulder. I rarely shoot my 45-70 B/C now that I have one in 38-55. www.whyteleatherworks.com

104659

[nicholst55]

My friend does bronze casting art. Think there would be a market for trigger guards and barrel lugs for these?

I may have to work with him on mine to see if it'd be worth it for him to knock out some.

These rifles are reasonably popular, and I could see a small market for steel parts - or maybe even a brass trigger guard. I wouldn't plan on doing runs of hundreds of parts at a time, because you might end up sitting on them for a long time! Marketing skills would be essential, IMHO.

[NVScouter]

I've been texting him and we may take mine apart this weekend and see what he thinks. I'm going to buy the machined front spacer from TT for my two but a brass/bronze trigger guard might be nice. The adapted Hawken ones I've seen look better than the plastic by far but still look adapted.

He's a blacksmith/bronze artist so he will know what the cost/time would be to produce. Somthing to look into. He said he can do about 20-50 castings per mold. Maybe do 40-50 and see what comes of it.

[nekshot]

I kinda like these buf guns myself. I don't have one but I do have a older shotgun that I am very naughty with and a couple years ago I started to make a trigger guard that would pivot to open the action then I gave up. I totally hate that button to push to open but it does work. Did I mention that trigger is a trial and tribulation to get back in the reciever?

[kywoodwrkr]

This a heads up for anyone needing a replacement stock for the Buffalo Classic.
Gunstocks, Inc. http://www.gunstocksinc.com/
Sells a replacement stock.
I bought one over a year ago knowing I was going to have to replace the damaged stock on my rifle.
Now a year and a half later I am getting ready to reassemble the beast and lo and behold one of the pilot holes for the butt plate is drilled off center and at about a 25 degree slant.
Contacted above company and they said pound sand as their 'guarantee' is good for 14 days.
So, if you decide to buy one of their expensive replacements, please give it a very good going over immediately upon receiving it.
Am considering putting rosin nuts in rear of stock since I'm not very confident of their material since their manufacturing standards are so low.
This episode is funny because I went the purchase route rather than have to fight with making the butt stock ie shaping and etc.
Looks like I'll be doing that now anyway.
YMMV

[johnson1942]

i wish some one would make the brass part that attaches to the fore stock and and goes against the reciever. it would be very nifty looking with my brass trigger guard. many of the muzzle loader nice trigger guards can be put on a buffalo classic. i didnt take out my trigger ***. to cut off the plastic trigger guard. i just did it when it was still in the gun. all you have to do to put on the trigger guard of your choise is drill and tap two hole and thats very easy. my gun looks like a western carbine of the old west when i modified it. it took a trip with me to denver and back two days ago. felt safer going into populated country with my buffalo rifle with me. happily it just layed on the back seat and never moved. think all this talk about the buffalo classic makes me want to get another barrel for it and put a long range old style buffalo shooting scope on it and go compete down at alliance, i know it would make a good 1000 yard gun with my paperpatched bullets. can not find any falts in mine at all.

[kywoodwrkr]

"i wish some one would make the brass part that attaches to the fore stock and and goes against the reciever."
Me too! :-) And trigger guard.
105102
I am currently cutting these out of steel on a wire EDM. Have brass on hand to use for first ones for a friend of mine and me.
Major concern I have is trigger slot in guard. Note two different shapes inside.
But I'll decide how I'm going to do it after I get back in the shop in June.
Mill with fillets?
Mill and then cut square with another process?
Burn with sinker EDM? Who knows what I'll decide, or even if.
Have butt plate drawn up as well but not sure I want to spend $ on brass just yet for it.
Gunstocks, Inc with their unbelievably bad quality control have put the butt plate concern way back. Maybe even until I make my own butt stock, if I can.
We'll see.
My projects usually get superseded by other requirements of time and machine. Summer is supposed to be light on machines I need though so maybe it will get done.
PS If anyone wants the MasterCam output of these just contact me-[by e-mail though].
MasterCam out put available as IGES, DWG, etc. etc.
I guess posting output can be available as will.

[Springfield]

Brass pivots would make my B/C's look better for sure, especially if I also did a brass trigger guard. Put them on my 45-70 and my 38-55.

[johnson1942]

i got a new walnut butt stock from H and R a couple of years ago when the original got dammaged. i think it was less than 60 dollars and very well made.

[kywoodwrkr]

Can't remember the answer I got from H&R but everyone was saying how "good' the Gunstock Inc stocks were.
I received mine, looked it over and put it away.
Now when I'm ready to attach a butt plate,(looking it over a little closer) I find the mess they left me with.
I'll just catalog it under education and never buy another piece of wood from the original supplier.
Have too many things going on right now to bother with a butt stock.
But for others this was just a heads up.

[NVScouter]

Thats pretty sad considering how stupid simple the H&R stock design is. Its not like a bolt action inletting...just a tapered hole for goodness sake. Sounds like a trip to the store for a chunk of harwood would be more fun. Not too hard to do at home with a few decent tools.


Can't remember the answer I got from H&R but everyone was saying how "good' the Gunstock Inc stocks were.
I received mine, looked it over and put it away.
Now when I'm ready to attach a butt plate,(looking it over a little closer) I find the mess they left me with.
I'll just catalog it under education and never buy another piece of wood from the original supplier.
Have too many things going on right now to bother with a butt stock.
But for others this was just a heads up.

[xpaholic]

depending on finish and price, I would be interested in two sets of bronze or brass accessories for the buff classics. keep me in mind should anyone start casting/making some. thanks xp

[johnson1942]

as long as someone is considering makeing brass or bronze tigger and forestock parts, why not a buttplate that is curved on the inside to fit the classic but a straight shotgun type where the shoulder rests. bet you could sell those. i would get one. it may add a little weight but that good gun could use a little weight.

[NVScouter]

My friend and I didnt get to look at it yet. He has a property closing that is taking up any free time.

My Buffalo Classic's "cressent" buttplate was junk. Fitted poorly and undersize with the worst case hardening I've seen. Cutting it off and putting on a Limbsaver didnt make me cry one bit. I didnt want to get another stock since I had tried my Handi Rifle's and found it more suited to a scope. The BC's stock profile is really good for iron sites and the wood is darn nice. Adding weight in the stock didnt apeal to me much either.