PDA

View Full Version : WC860 Q&A + General Comments



offshore44
04-30-2014, 02:56 PM
I ordered my first bunch of WC860 a few days ago and wanted to make sure that I understood the mechanics and theory of working up loads with it. I hope to restrict the discussion to cast boolits.

Here's what I think I understand so far (from my loading journal):

Reloading using 50 BMG surplus military powders.

It is possible to reload cartridges other than the "Big 50" with military surplus 50 BMG (and 20mm cannon) powder. These powders are: WC860, WC867 and WC872. This is an advanced reloading technique, and should not be attempted unless you are comfortable with reading pressure signs, can read a powder burn rate chart, have a strong rifle and quality brass.

Cartridges as small as the .223 have been successfully loaded using this technique. It is most applicable to rifle cartridges that are "over bore" like the 7mm Rem Mag (see 300 win mag note). It works fine with the 300 Win Mag (start with no kicker charge and a hot magnum primer) and cartridges like the 45-70, 458 Win Mag and other straight wall cartridges. You can usually find a good load for cartridges like the 308, 30-06 7x57 and such. It will cycle the action in gas operated semi-autos like the FAL and M1A1. It will work to some degree with jacketed and cast bullets. It will generate velocities that range from black powder levels to starting load levels.

The background on this technique comes from shooting the large black powder cartridges with black powder. One of the issues with black powder is the powder residue that is left in the barrel. Attempts were made to clean up the burn by using small charges of smokeless powder under the main black powder charge to clean up the burn. The technique is called "Duplexing", and is fairly well accepted. It also has a long history.

The theory: Is it possible to use a full case charge of extremely slow, by civilian standards, powder to propel a bullet out of a rifle at close to normal velocities. What we are attempting to do is replicate the burn conditions at ignition inside of a smaller case using a smaller primer that occur inside of a 50BMG case. The thing we need to do is raise the temperature and the pressure at ignition so that it matches closely enough the temperatures and pressures of a 50BMG at ignition that these slow powders will burn completely and cleanly.

To start: All of the cases should be in good condition. The bullets should be in the medium to heavy weight range for the cartridge. The rifle must be strong and in good condition. Quality reloading tools should be used to include scales, micrometers, calipers, chronographs & etc.

Select the cartridge and bullet to be used. Make up a dummy round that fits the rifle. This will set your cartridge over all length. Measure and find the base of the bullet at this COL. Fill the case with the 50BMG powder to this line. Weigh that charge. Do this several times until you are confident that you have found your case capacity for this powder, case and boolit combination. We are looking for very slight compression on the powder charge (1/16" or so) so add a 1/2 grain of powder at a time until this compression is achieved. This is the starting charge to begin your load development. Shoot your test rounds to see what happens. For duplexing, we need slight compression to keep the kicker charge from mixing with the main powder charge during normal handling. Select a medium to fast stick rifle powder (pistol / shotgun powder?) to use as a kicker charge. H4895 is a pretty good place to start. DO NOT use ball powders, flake powders may be used after you gain experience with this technique. Never, under any circumstances, use a powder that exhibits a change in burning rate when compressed. Trail Boss is a classic example. Don't do it. Bad things happen. Prepare your cases and bullets as you would for your normal loading procedure. Use a standard rifle primer. Make up a small selection of about 5-10 rounds to start. Put 3 grains (?) of your fast to medium rifle powder (?) in the case. Reduce the 50 BMG charge by 3 grns to compensate. USE A SCALE! Gently add the 50BMG powder to the case and immediately seat the bullet and provide a firm crimp. These are to be loaded completely one at a time. Double charging your kicker powder will lead to a catastrophic event. If not now, then later. Make sure!

Go out and shoot these. Check carefully for overpressure signs. Check the primer for flattening and cratering. Check the case head for ballooning. Make sure the extraction feels normal. Check the bore for unburned kernels of powder. There may be a few, that is OK and to be expected. If there is no unburned powder in the bore and none out in front of the muzzle, you may be good to go. If you do find unburned powder reload 5-10 more rounds with 0.1 grain additional kicker powder. Reduce the 50BMG powder by 0.1 grain to compensate. Repeat this process until the 50BMG powder burns cleanly and no powder is ejected unburnt from the muzzle OR pressure signs start to show up. If pressure signs show up before the 50BMG powder is burning cleanly, then you need to go to a faster (slower? higher nitro content?) stick rifle powder as a kicker charge. We are looking for the balance of temp and pressure that mimics the conditions of ignition in a 50BMG case, remember? These loads can be modified as required after the clean burn point is found to obtain extremely low velocity spreads and standard deviations. Using the standard ladder load test will usually find a sweet spot where barrel harmonics, kicker charge load and bullet weight will allow you to load these almost like a normal load. When you find that load, you have achieved nirvana! Keep good records, on paper.

These loads are safe once correctly worked up in the gun they were worked up in, the powder lots that were used in the work up, brass and the bullet weight and type used in the workup. If you change any single component, work up these loads again from scratch. Even something as small as a change in primer lots will affect these loads sometimes. Don't swap loads between rifles of the same caliber.

Again, these loads are proven safe and effective, but you have to follow the rules or things don't work out well sometimes. Rarely, but sometimes. Don't be THAT guy.

A few notes: These powders burn cool compared to civilian powders. They are easy on a barrel and most especially easy on chamber throats. 50BMG surplus powders are cheap compared to regular powders, especially when bought in bulk. I have seen 20mm cannon powder sold for $45 for an eight pound keg recently, with no HazMat fee if you buy six kegs. That's bloody cheap in anybodies book. 50BMG powder is in the $60 for eight pound range, and is preferable. When you buy this powder, get as much as you can afford so that you don't have to go through the workup again. Mil-surp powders vary in burn rate from lot to lot, so getting a bunch at one time cuts down on the hassle factor. A new workup is mandatory if you get a lot # that is different that the original. Write the lot numbers down and keep track of such things. These are low pressure rounds, the kicker charge is what generates the pressure to start, and gets the whole thing working the way it's supposed to. The kicker powder can be most any stick fast to medium burn range rifle powder. Some folks have had good success with slow flake shotgun and pistol powders as well. In this day and age, you have to use what's available sometimes. Just be aware of what you are doing and load accordingly.

Comments and corrections are desired and encouraged! I would really like to make sure I understand the theory and mechanics of this before I jump off into burning a bunch of this stuff...

Thanks a bunch!

MT Gianni
04-30-2014, 06:10 PM
I would agree with the above assessment. What do you plan to use it in? CastPics data has some good work already done with surplus powders.

Maven
04-30-2014, 06:50 PM
os44, I too concur with your treatise, but with a few caveats. First, although it can be done, (and has been done!), I wouldn't use WC 860 in cartridges in the .223 -.243Win. range because of the large amount of unburned powder left behind. I tried it in both my .243Win. and 6.5 x 55mm Swedish Mau. and got huge amounts of powder residue [everywhere] in the former and erratic velocities and extreme spreads in the latter, even with LR Mag. primers. Second, LR Mag. primers help raise 860's efficiency, so there's a bit less unburned stuff left behind. Third, in nominally .30cal. cartridges, including metric .30's, a filler such as powdered bran, or spherical shot buffer boosts efficiency without the slightly greater complication of duplexing (which powder? how much?, etc.). Fourth, WC 860 is happier with heavier CB's and at least 70% loading density. For example in the .30-06 (bolt action), this means using CB's of at least 175grs. + 46grs. - 48grs. as a starting load (no filler or duplexing) + LR mag. primers. If a filler is used, you can drop those charges by at least 3 grs. Lastly, some recent lots of WC 860 are faster and cleaner burning than older lots. Mine, purchased from Wideners ~8 yrs. ago is one such example.

Hope this helps!

SciFiJim
04-30-2014, 10:35 PM
Great description of duplexing. I bought 4 kegs of WC872 a couple of years ago because of the price, with this in mind.

jonp
05-01-2014, 12:20 AM
I am about to order 6 kegs of surplus to give this a try. I've read of people using everything from W231 to IMR3031 for kickers. The one thing repeated a number of times is that using a ball powder as a kicker is not a good idea as the powder can migrate easily and cause a world of hurt.

A 10% rule seems to be in effect from my readings in that your kicker should not exceed 10% of the total charge. Any comments on this?

9w1911
05-01-2014, 12:38 AM
anyone of you guys want to Pm me some wc860 45-70 data if this is done with out the kicker, either way I am deeply interested in duplex

offshore44
05-01-2014, 03:56 PM
I would agree with the above assessment. What do you plan to use it in? CastPics data has some good work already done with surplus powders.

Right now I'm looking at 8mm Mauser in a 24-47 Mauser, .308 in a gas gun (FAL) and a 458 Win Mag with paper patched. If all of that works out fairly well, then the wife's 7mm Mauser.

Checked out the Castpics surplus load data at http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Surplus/default.html Nice info, but pretty sparse.


os44, I too concur with your treatise, but with a few caveats. First, although it can be done, (and has been done!), I wouldn't use WC 860 in cartridges in the .223 -.243Win. range because of the large amount of unburned powder left behind. I tried it in both my .243Win. and 6.5 x 55mm Swedish Mau. and got huge amounts of powder residue [everywhere] in the former and erratic velocities and extreme spreads in the latter, even with LR Mag. primers. Second, LR Mag. primers help raise 860's efficiency, so there's a bit less unburned stuff left behind. Third, in nominally .30cal. cartridges, including metric .30's, a filler such as powdered bran, or spherical shot buffer boosts efficiency without the slightly greater complication of duplexing (which powder? how much?, etc.). Fourth, WC 860 is happier with heavier CB's and at least 70% loading density. For example in the .30-06 (bolt action), this means using CB's of at least 175grs. + 46grs. - 48grs. as a starting load (no filler or duplexing) + LR mag. primers. If a filler is used, you can drop those charges by at least 3 grs. Lastly, some recent lots of WC 860 are faster and cleaner burning than older lots. Mine, purchased from Wideners ~8 yrs. ago is one such example.

Hope this helps!

That's great stuff! I was wondering about using a filler, specifically a Dacron filler, to control pressure, burn and velocity. If I understand what you are saying though, a compressible filler may not give the results required? My 8mm shoots great with cast, but is pretty sensitive to pushing the boolit too fast. It doesn't lead or anything, but accuracy goes south very fast. Nice to see load densities mentioned. Everything that I have seen so far says that a compressed load is the way to go. I'm comfortable with a lower density and a filler, so that is an area to explore.

It seems that the .243 with a heavy boolit or bullet would be a natural. It's pretty overbore with a large(er) case capacity. Hmmm...wonder what's up with that.

Good to mention variable burn rates with surplus powder again. Gotta keep in mind that just because something works or doesn't work for someone else doesn't mean that it won't work for you. Especially results that are just on the edge of working or not working. I'm guessing that the Swede is a good example. Some folks get their lot of WC860 to work unduplexed and others not.


I am about to order 6 kegs of surplus to give this a try. I've read of people using everything from W231 to IMR3031 for kickers. The one thing repeated a number of times is that using a ball powder as a kicker is not a good idea as the powder can migrate easily and cause a world of hurt.

A 10% rule seems to be in effect from my readings in that your kicker should not exceed 10% of the total charge. Any comments on this?

I have noticed that mentioned about using a ball powder kicker as well. I was wondering about some of the small kernel stick powders as well. Power Pistol is pretty 'hot' for it's place in the burn rate chart, but it has very small kernels. It was mentioned in another thread that using a glass / plastic tube to dummy up a load might be a good idea to see if the powders were prone to mixing. Seemed like a decent idea when I read it. The 10% rule seems reasonable on the surface, but I'm thinking that there may be a bunch of exceptions. Too hot of a kicker powder may have no reasonable effect at 10%, and a much slower kicker powder may not clean up the burn until it gets over 10%. Both extremes would indicate that the kicker is inappropriate, but in this day and age we sometimes have to use what we have.

Thanks for all of the input! This is exactly what I was looking for.

Maven
05-01-2014, 04:25 PM
os44, There are many advantages to using Dacron as a filler, as BruceB. and Larry Gibson, separately, have pointed out. However, that wasn't the route I took. As I mentioned in post #3, I've used powdered bran (bran run through a coffee mill) and spherical shot buffer and have been quite pleased with them. In .30-06 sized cartridges including the 8 x 57mm Mau., with heavier CB's and LR Mag. primers, I use 44 - 48grs. WC 860 + filler as follows: For the '06, 7.5 x 55mm Swiss, 7.62 x 54R, and 7.65 x 53 Arg. Mau., I use 0.7cc or 1.0cc (Lee dippers) bran or shot buffer.* For the 8 x 57mm Mau., 0.3cc (again, Lee dipper) works very well with the 48gr. load and CB's between 195gr. and 205gr. You can experiment with both the powder charge and amount of filler rather effectively if you have a chronograph available.** Otherwise, you have to judge the improvement of powder burn efficiency by target accuracy, how clean your case necks are, and how much unburned powder falls out of the case. If you try this stuff, be sure you store the loaded rounds with the primers facing you so that the filler, particularly the spherical shot buffer, doesn't seep into the powder charge.

*1.0cc in the .30-06, which will be compressed by the seated CB.

**You don't want to use so much powder and/or filler that the shot buffer compresses to form a solid mass!

offshore44
05-01-2014, 05:04 PM
Thanks again Maven. I have followed BruceB's and Larry Gibson's work with Dacron pretty closely with good success. Using powdered bran and spherical shot buffer intrigue me, but I haven't tried it yet.

Very good info on the 8mm Mauser there. It's going on the list of things to try. If the 8mm will shoot accurately in the 1800 - 2100 fps range and the powder will burn relatively cleanly that's a win. It seems that there is a lot of "adjustment" available with WC860. More than expected and more than I originally thought anyway.

lreed
05-05-2014, 09:42 PM
Thank you fellers for sharing, got six jugs 860 today. I have read everything I can find on loading,there sure is a mishmash of 860 info on the net,good to find someone who is actually loading the stuff instead of flap jawing on what they think about it!! lreed

freebullet
05-05-2014, 11:07 PM
Excellent information being shared here and on cast pics. We are going to be using the imr7383 soon. It appears it may present similar challenges, maybe more. It should be fun either way. Thanks for sharing fellas.

Maven
05-06-2014, 07:07 PM
Excellent information being shared here and on cast pics. We are going to be using the imr7383 soon. It appears it may present similar challenges, maybe more. It should be fun either way. Thanks for sharing fellas.

freebullet, When you're ready to use IMR 7383, search here for relevant information: https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=001951264366462437169:ggn3vg-bjum Also, if you have a particular cartridge in mind, you can get an approximate idea of how much 7383 to use with a given CB in the following manner: Take 1 or 2 resized cases of the cartridge in question and drill out the primer pockets using a bit ~the same size as the pocket diameter. Next, seat a CB to the depth that your rifle will accept. Third, use a small funnel to fill the now drilled out case with 7383 so that no powder intrudes in the primer pocket. Empty the case into a scale pan and measure the charge weight.* Repeat this 10 times, average the result and then mark it on the case with an indelible marker. Your starting charge with that CB should be at least 15% less than the max. you just established. Having a chronograph available will be invaluable when working with milsurp powders, especially 7383. Lastly, bear in mind that the IMR 7383 comes in different burning rates, ranging from "fast" to "slow."

Btw, I'm indebted to Jim Conner for this trick in establishing case volume/charge weight with IMR 7383.


*7383 doesn't tolerate much compression at all. Remember, with 7383 LESS [compression] is more!

TCLouis
05-07-2014, 09:55 PM
I keep asking can we get those with the different Lots of this powder to list the lot number and the relative "burn rate" position.

Maven
05-08-2014, 09:27 AM
TC, I'd like to provide the info. you request, but my current jug [of IMR 7383] has NO lot number listed, although an earlier one (long gone) did. The current one, however, is a trifle slower than IMR 4350. Although usable with CB's, it's much "happier" with jacketed bullets.

MUSTANG
05-09-2014, 10:05 PM
OffShore44:

I have had some level of success with WC860 and WC872 in .223 using jacketed. You can see data on my efforts at these links:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?160094-WC860-in-223-5-56-Yes-But&highlight
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?241228-WC872-in-223%92s

At a later date later this spring/summer after I have cast a variety weights for .223 BOOLITS; I'll work on some Pb loads and see what I can accomplish.

offshore44
05-10-2014, 09:41 PM
Thanks Mustang!

I got two loads out today using my batch of 860. One was 7.62 NATO in the StG-58, and the other was 7.92x57mm in the Yugo 24-47. Both shot well; though I didn't put either on paper. After making sure that all was well with the loads, I used the rest to chase a pop can around the log landing. That and various busted clays & etc. The pop can didn't last very long. Not bad for a first attempt, offhand and not slung up. The range was from spitting distance to 100 yards.

I think that I can back off the 5744 powder that duplexed the WC860 by half a grain in the 7.62 round. The StG-58 was way over gassed at a setting of 5, and actually ran pretty well at 7. Wouldn't lock the bolt back at 7 though. A setting of 6 seemed to be the ticket. Nice uniform pile of brass about four feet in front of me and about 5 feet to the right. No damaged cases either. Gotta love an adjustable gas system on a semi-auto! The gas plug was free in the gas block and the plug and piston were really clean after the WC860 loads. Shot some Varget loads, and crudded up the gas plug. Hmmm...

The 8mm rounds were not duplexed, and I didn't use Maven's load. I filled the case with powder to the bottom of the boolit, and added just a touch going for slight compression. Probably not the perfect / recommended practice there, but it was less than the loads on Castpics, so I went with it. This load also shot great, but left old maids in the bore. Pulling the bolt every few shots showed that there was a bit of powder just ahead of the chamber. Sooo...maybe a magnum primer or possibly more compression, or if need be a touch of kicker powder.

I recovered a couple three boolits of each caliber and they looked really good. No alloy failures or gas cutting could be seen. The 8mm used Lyman #2 and the 7.62 NATO used 94-3-3 oven heat treated. I'm guessing by the way the StG-58 was acting with this load that water dropped would work just fine.

All in all, WC860 is looking very promising for these two component combinations. I'm sold and wish that I had the money to get another 6 jugs. It would be nice to have that on the shelf right about now.

Next up - a refined 8mm load for the 24-47 and paper patched in the 458 Win Mag. That ought to be fun, the 485. I recovered one of the slugs from the usual load. They tool along at about 1,800 fps or so. Beautiful mushroom about an 1 1/4" x 1". Not bad for the cream of 1870's technology. When I get it cleaned up, I'll measure it and weigh it to see what is really there.