Miroku 1873 Winchester .357

[T-Bird]

Ok, Mon. I got off my wallet and placed one of these on order. The lgs guy said it may "take a while to get it"- like several months- anyway, I am still trying to prepare for my new arrival. At present, my only .357 is a S+W 686 that I shoot Ly 358429 out of. I load it over 8gr AA#5 and get good accuracy and 1100ish fps. I am not a devoted .357 shooter, I shoot much more 45 Colt , 35 Rem, 45/70, etc. so I just kinda got one mold, one load and I was good for .357. Well when this gun arrives, I will probably shoot much more .357. I load this boolet in the crimping groove for an OAL longer that SAAMI specs for my pistol but question #1 is, does anyone have one of these guns, and will this boolet at this OAL feed? question #2 is: Are these guns still considered "weak" designs that can barely be expected to carry but a few factory spec "magnum" loads a year, with the rest being CAS level loads, or are they bona fide .357 rifles that you can shoot like any other? Reading "on the net" I have read both. I am in the latter camp- I believe Miroku steel is as good as it gets and these guns can be used like any other .357 rifle. I think that CAS which is supposedly what these guns were marketed for, places alot more stress on the toggle-link design than it was ever designed for in 1873. Surely, non CAS shooting with .357 mag loads at "normal " shooting levels won't shoot them loose. Any input appreciated. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[missionary5155]

Greetings Tbird
This debate has bounced about a good while. The only way to find out for sre is wait 10 years for the hard evidence to unravel.
But if you were to buy two and shoot 125 grainers only in one and 200 grainers in the other I would think that 200 grainer rifle toggle systen will not hold tolerences and head space will increase.
I have a two year old repro 1876 in 50-95. I took it apart and compared pieces to my origonal 1876. Not hardly any difference. Sure the steel is probably stronger but the system is still a toggle. Probably will last all my life with case fulls of 3F. But that is about all I will ever feed it.
I have a 32 WCF 1873 from 1887. No idea what it was fed before I got 20 plus years ago. But since I only feed it light loads of Unique or 3F. Head space is a bit loose but not bad.
So if you shoot all 357 mag velocity it will depend on how heavy the boolits are and what powder you use. Slow powders are a bit more gentle. Max loads of Red Dot will really pop on those toggles. But you will be the first to know when the new toggles begin to give.
Mike in Peru

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I think one of the main concerns with 73's whether they are original or modern repros is not so much the strength of the steel, but the strength of the action. In the originals the links/linkage/toggles was not considered to be very sturdy/strong and if overloaded in any way..that was where something would let go or at least start to. Advice from Missionary 5155 is very good....use the slowest practical powder, don't use heavier than needed bullets and keep the pressure down on the toggles ...and the rest of the gun. It will last longer. LLS

[T-Bird]

my experience with slower powders is that, given the same boolet and velocity as a faster powder, cases thusly loaded produce more felt recoil due to the larger powder volime burned. Shouldn't this produce MORE casehead thrust? where am I wrong? T-Bird

[LtFrankDrebbin]

I may be corrected on this one,,, but the slower burn powder should be a more progressive push to the boolit as well as the other side being the working parts.
Not the fast jolt that you would get from the fast burners.

I sort of picture it as the golfer striking the ball (fast powder) vs hockey player more pushing ball/ puck (slow powder). Same peak pressure to achieve a given velocity just one reaches peak a lot faster therefore more aggressive.

[Dan Cash]

If you load .357 cases with 3fg black powder and your bullet of choice, the rifle will out live you. If you have to shoot .357 magnum loads of smokeless, you will be trading guns before long. For what it is worth, heavy loads with light weight bullets are a lot more stressful on a revolver than heavy loads with heavy bullets.

[Bob Busetti]

I don't know about the strength 1873 in .357. However Accurate powder claims the new made 1876 is stronger than people think they are. They show loads that are limited to 25,000 with there powders. So I guess until someone does a scientific test on the new actions we will never know how strong these actions are. Of course Remington got away with smokeless powder in its rolling blocks by having a generous free bore in the barrel. Just saying.
Bob

[T-Bird]

That last sentence doesn't make sense to me Dan
If you load .357 cases with 3fg black powder and your bullet of choice, the rifle will out live you. If you have to shoot .357 magnum loads of smokeless, you will be trading guns before long. For what it is worth, heavy loads with light weight bullets are a lot more stressful on a revolver than heavy loads with heavy bullets.

[T-Bird]

Gun manufacturers typically claim that they don't support using handloads in their guns. It doesn't make sense that a company would make a gun that you weren't supposed to shoot factory ammo in. Shoot Straight T-Bird

[T-Bird]

FWIW I called Winchester, spoke with "Matt". I told him that I was considering the purchase of an 1873 in .357 but that I felt like their target market was CAS shooters and I am not one. I told him that I would be using the gun for hunting and shooting and likely would be using factory (I lied a little) 158 gr .357 ammo routinely was the action strong enough to stand up to that? He said "you will be fine. " I know that is what you would expect him to say, but he had a chance to say that it was primarily meant for reduced loads, and he didn't. Guess the proof is in the puddin'. As for the OAL part of my query (which is I think 1.660), anyone know? Shoot straight,T-Bird

[T-Bird]

Got it finally fri! Shoots well (I think) with Lee 158 RNFP over 8gr AA#5. I really can't see the sight well, I have got a Marble tang sight on order. I hit a beverage can at 60 yds about 1/2 the time. Misses were close. No leading with ACWW+ 2%.Also, the owners manual says to only shoot factory loaded ammo in it -no surprise. The above load is below that level. I will probably shoot 5-10 full power loads in it a year to hunt with. Fit and finish on this rifle is superb.To say I tickled is an understatement. Shoot Straight T-Bird.

[TXGunNut]

Wow, glad you finally got it. I would have probably had the tang sight on there before the initial range trip but have found I can use a few of the variations of buckhorn sights. Any chance of a few pics? Any feeding issues?

[Plastikosmd]

Gratz. I haven't worked much up in mine to date. It does well with factory stuff. U need to post a pic!

[T-Bird]

I started to order the tang sight a long time ago, but the way the lgs guy sounded," those guns are hard to get" I wasn't sure it would EVER come. He actually ordered it from Winchester, but wound up buying from a salesman or something- he told me but I wasn't listening, I was eyeing the gun.I have a rule, the day I buy a gun, it gets shot before dark- hence the trip to the range with no tang sight. I don't know how to post pics. Shoot straight T-Bird

[T-Bird]

Lee 158rnfp feeds like butter. Ly358429 will not feed crimped in the crimp groove. 358429 feeds but sometimes the nose hangs up on the chamber edge when crimped level with the front edge of the front driving band. I still can't comment on accuracy- no tang sight yet. Hasn't stopped me from shooting it tho! Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[paul h]

my experience with slower powders is that, given the same boolet and velocity as a faster powder, cases thusly loaded produce more felt recoil due to the larger powder volime burned. Shouldn't this produce MORE casehead thrust? where am I wrong? T-Bird

The casehead thrust is based on the peak pressure generated by the powder charge. You can get the same peak pressure with a fast, medium and slow powder and will have different bullet velocities and recoils for all three loads but the bolt will experience the same peak thrust.

[T-Bird]

thank's Paul. that means that these lil-gun 357 loads that are such high velocity but low pressure, are actually easier on the gun than the midrange Unique type loads that are saami standard 357mag pressures? It's hard for me to believe that I have bought a 357 mag rifle that I can't shoot 357mag in! I get the design deal, but double barrel shotguns haven't changed designs significantly in the last 125 yrs and todays shells are able to be 3x black powder pressure levels simply because of advancements in metalurgy.I think the same applys here- maybe I'm wrong. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[T-Bird]

Tang sight came in today. shoots better than I can see at 60 yds with 7.5 gr AA#5 and About the same with 8gr #5. about 21/2 in at that range. Will try some "hunting loads" when holidays over. Y'all don't eat too much! Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[Greg in Malad]

T-Bird,
Congratulations on your new rifle, it was worth the wait.
I lucked out and found one at Sportsmans Warehouse last fall:bigsmyl2:, it is by far the most enjoyable rifle I own. The rear sight never tripped my hammer and I don’t care for tang sights so I installed a Skinner barrel mount peep, it’s a bit too far forward but much better than a buckhorn.
My rifles accuracy is about 1.5” to 2.5” at 50 yds with every load I’ve tried which is adequate for plinking and small game. Don’t worry about wearing out the toggle links. Look at it this way, if you shoot enough mid-range loads to wear them out you have shot more ammo in one rifle than most people will fire in their entire life.
If I can remember how, I’ll post some photos of my rifle in action.

122940122941

[T-Bird]

Nice work Greg! Beautiful gun.

[T-Bird]

2 coats boiled linseed oil "sho did make her purdy!" shoot straight, T-Bird

[JHeath]

What are the consequences if the 73 is 'too weak' for a steady diet of full-house loads? In 20,000 rounds you have to install new toggles and then it's like new again? Or does it risk a kb or irreparable damage to the receiver? I've been curious about this, would like a 73.

[Dusty Ed]

Howdy T Bird
Do you really think that a manufacturer of firearms hasn't tested it to its highest potential .
The only reason the they say not to use reloads is because of idiots . They don't say that but it is what it means in the warranty.
I have several toggle link rifles , the oldest one is a Uberti 1860 Henry rifle , I bought in 2007 an have better than 4500 rounds through it at 870fps 250 gr. 45 lc.
there is no wear on the links or any pins.
I also have 3 Japan made rifles 2 Brownings and 1 Winchester I cannot fault any of them.
I could go on about the testing of 1876 Win. where they couldn't blow it up.
Just go shoot the gun.
You will love it.
Dusty Ed

[T-Bird]

JHeath, that is what I wondered as well. Ed, I tend to agree with you, and that's what I meant in an above post.Mat actually said "that's what we tested them with" when I told him that the gun would get a steady diet of 158gr factory 357 mag. loads. Shoot straight T-Bird

[35 shooter]

I've asked this same question before pertaining to sustained firing of 357 mags in an 1873 and have ALWAYS been told it would wear out the toggle linkage. So i was told to always shoot less than full mag loads in one and basically it's a 38 special rifle....BUT...why then, does Uberti make a blued steel 1873 in 44 mag???
Wouldn't the larger dia. case have even more back thrust? Isn't it a toggle link action, or is something different on it other than blued steel? Sure looks like the same action on their website.
As has been asked, can the linkage be replaced? Or is it caput at that point?

Even if a steady diet of 357 mag is too much for one, i would still love to have one to shoot 38"s in instead of a .22 and just save the mags for hunting.

Another question i guess would be can the blued steel version sustain mag loads? It's still a toggle link as far as i could tell looking at the pictures on the site. My common sense says the toggle system WILL wear, but then Uberti turns one out in 44 mag.....very confusing.
Have to say this has gotten me interested in a '73' again.

[T-Bird]

As I said before, the advancements in metalurgy, not design change is what makes it possible to shoot 3" mag 12ga shotshells with smokeless pwdr that have 3x the pressure of black pwdr shell in todays double bbl shotguns. I think "we're good" on these '73s. The load I settled on is 7.5gr AA#5 under the LeeRNFP 158. This load is .5gr under the starting load listed in AA loading manual should be running around 1300 fps( 8gr runs 1350-1399 fps). I will probably only shoot a few mag loads at deer a year. Shoot Straight T-Bird.

[35 Whelen]

I don't think for a nanosecond any manufacturer would chamber a rifle in .357 planning for it to be used for CAS loads only. If it's chambered for .357, then it'll handle the 36,000 psi loads. Just to prove I put my money where my mouth is, I recently bought a Uberti 1873 in .44 Magnum :bigsmyl2:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Uberti%2044%20Mag%20Carbine/UbertiCarbine-3_zps8d3f73e0.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Uberti%2044%20Mag%20Carbine/UbertiCarbine-3_zps8d3f73e0.jpg.html)

Shoots good too:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Uberti%2044%20Mag%20Carbine/UbertiCarbine_zps76990426.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Uberti%2044%20Mag%20Carbine/UbertiCarbine_zps76990426.jpg.html)

I bought this .44 Magnum not so much to shoot .44 Magnums in, but mainly so I can shoot my heavy .44 Special loads in it. Most folks don't realize the .357 and .44 Magnum share the same SAAMI maximum pressure.

Greg I love the finish on your 1873. I fully intend to restock mine with a piece of walnut finished with my BLO/pure gum turpentine concoction.

I find it odd that folks NEVER compare a modern bolt action rifle, and its potential for handling heavy loads, to an 1893 Mauser. Metallurgy advancements have benefitted lever rifles just as they have bolt rifles. Shoot and don't worry about it.

35W

[35 shooter]

Very nice looking .44 mag too!Wow! A 73 is on the wish list.

[T-Bird]

Fine lookin' rifle 35 Whelen. and nice shooting esp if you did that w/ irons. Oh for for younger eyes! I have some 38 special cases, haven't shot any yet because what I've read , the mag cases generally get better accuracy. This makes sense because the boolit has a smaller "jump" to hit the rifling.I'm sure I'll try tho! Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[joatmon]

I think a lot of the warnings came from writers like Skeeter and others of his time frame that had originals converted to 357 and 44 mags and did quickly wear the toggles . Can't remember the article
source right now that I read that in.

Aaron

[T-Bird]

sounds reasonable. I can see where that would happen, probably rather quickly.Such "warnings" are ubiqiutous an the net- some even coming from smiths that claim to have seen it in the repro guns. Rather it usually is stated" I know a smith that says....". Shoot Straight T-Bird

[T-Bird]

Tested feeding of 38 special loads today. Lee 358-158RNFP crimped in the groove will not feed in my gun.Ly 358429 crimped in the groove feeds better than in a 357 mag case. Will shoot some of these when I get a chance. they are loaded over 5.5gr AA#5. For me to shoot these, they will have to have a similar point of impact as my "hunting" load of 13 gr AA#9 under a 358429 crimped in the groove and single loaded. The 7.5 gr AA#5 , Lee 358-158 that I have adopted as my non deer load hits where my hunting load hits at 50 yds. I hate to adjust sights.

[iMigraine]

Tested feeding of 38 special loads today. Lee 358-158RNFP crimped in the groove will not feed in my gun.Ly 358429 crimped in the groove feeds better than in a 357 mag case. Will shoot some of these when I get a chance. they are loaded over 5.5gr AA#5. For me to shoot these, they will have to have a similar point of impact as my "hunting" load of 13 gr AA#9 under a 358429 crimped in the groove and single loaded. The 7.5 gr AA#5 , Lee 358-158 that I have adopted as my non deer load hits where my hunting load hits at 50 yds. I hate to adjust sights.

I resurrected this thread because I just DROSed a Winchester 1873 today but never heard of the "weak toggle link" concern. Since you gents have probably used yours a lot since the last post, have there been any issues? My preferred loads for most guns is to load for mid level pressures since they seem to give the best accuracy.

Like T-Bird, I would find it hard to believe that Winchester would market a firearm that couldn't accept full pressure loads for it's caliber. Unique and CFE Pistol are my slowest powders I plan to use along with 125gr to 158gr cast lead Lee boolits.

[35 Whelen]

I resurrected this thread because I just DROSed a Winchester 1873 today but never heard of the "weak toggle link" concern. Since you gents have probably used yours a lot since the last post, have there been any issues? My preferred loads for most guns is to load for mid level pressures since they seem to give the best accuracy.

Like T-Bird, I would find it hard to believe that Winchester would market a firearm that couldn't accept full pressure loads for it's caliber. Unique and CFE Pistol are my slowest powders I plan to use along with 125gr to 158gr cast lead Lee boolits.

The "weak toggle link" is a very unsubstantiated claim. If, however you'd like to see how strong they really can be, read here:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,57837.0.html

and here:

http://www.downeastgunworks.com/salvaging-a-uberti--model-1876/

35W

[iMigraine]

Thanks for the links 35 Whelen.

Downloaded the owners manual from Winchester to see what it said about ammunition:
"The Model 1873 is designed to shoot modern factory
cartridges only. The caliber of your new Model 1873 is
inscribed on the barrel, just in front of the receiver.
Make sure you use only the exact ammunition/caliber
as listed on the barrel.
The barrel and action of this rifle have been made
with substantial safety margins over the pressures
developed by established American loads. However,
we assume no responsibility for incidents which occur
through the use of cartridges of nonstandard
dimension or those developing pressures in excess of
SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition
Manufacturers’ Institute) established standards."

Feeling better that as long as I'm using factory or reloading to mid range loads there should be no issues with the toggle link system.

[T-Bird]

mine is fine. I don't know how many times I've shot it, prob around 1K. I'm mostly shooting Lee 158 RNFP at 1250 fps out of 357 cases sized .359. Have shot a few Lil Gun loads with Ly 358429 at 1700 fps. Both loads shoot as well as I can shoot. I quit worrying about the issue. Action sho is slick! Shoot Straight T-Bird