best foreseeable pistol cartridge for nonshooter

[nekshot]

I recently was asked what caliber should this non hunter, nonshooter get strictly for the comfort they have home protection. I immediatly said 9mm. Then I got to thinking about what is the military using and if there is any truth to that mountain of 40 caliber ammo that govt ordered for home land security and started rethinking my answer. For the future it might be the 40, what say ye of more understanding than me? And for those who wonder what pistol I recommended, shame me all you want but I said HiPoint!

[CastingFool]

HiPoint, for the money, are a pretty good value. They warrant their guns even to the 3rd owner, and their customer service dept. is supposed to be very good.

[tazman]

I have no experience with the HiPoint so cannot comment on that.
As for the home defense for a non shooter I would have recommended a shotgun. Probably a 20 gauge as they are relatively easy to handle. Easier to hit what you are trying to without spraying boolits all over the neighborhood.

[imashooter2]

Non shooters looking for a home protection firearm should get a full size steel .38 Special +P capable DA revolver due to the simplicty of operation and easily manageable recoil.

[dubber123]

Non shooters looking for a home protection firearm should get a full size steel .38 Special +P capable DA revolver due to the simplicty of operation and easily manageable recoil.


If it has to be a hand gun, I agree fully with this. If not, I often recommend a pump action shotgun.

[sandman228]

ive owned hipoints in the past there big, bulky, heavy ,clunky ,and ugly. that being said there decent shooters and able to take allot of abuse if that's the way one chooses to use them . ive outshot guys with much more expensive guns while using a hipoint.and there customer service is excellent (at least it was when i had them). i don't own any hipoints anymore but i have thought a time or 2 about picking 1 up for a truck gun .

[rhead]

Another vote for the double action 38 special. what ever model fits your hand. they are more novice proof.

[Jupiter7]

Went through the same with my younger brothers. .38special and s&w model 10-11's. Bought a box of defensive ammo for each. I knew that if they never spent any time with practice, they'd have a firearm they could handle(recoil wise) and would be reliable. It was the stepping stone to their interest into firearms.

[scattershot]

I'll jump in for the .38, too. Safe, no manipulation to get it ready to shoot, stored ready with all springs relaxed, and nothing happens before you're ready. He may even develop a fondness for shooting, and the .38 would serve him well as a plinker, too.

[Wayne Smith]

For a pistol cartridge I agree with the .38 Special revolver and I'd start by recommending a Ruger.

[44MAG#1]

"As for the home defense for a non shooter I would have recommended a shotgun. Probably a 20 gauge as they are relatively easy to handle. Easier to hit what you are trying to without spraying boolits all over the neighborhood."

Where do people get that idea?

[Char-Gar]

I recently was asked what caliber should this non hunter, nonshooter get strictly for the comfort they have home protection. I immediatly said 9mm. Then I got to thinking about what is the military using and if there is any truth to that mountain of 40 caliber ammo that govt ordered for home land security and started rethinking my answer. For the future it might be the 40, what say ye of more understanding than me? And for those who wonder what pistol I recommended, shame me all you want but I said HiPoint!

"Comfort" is a very subjective term, meaning different things to different people. I would not be comfortable with a low end, bargain basement handgun for home defense. There are many things in life, we can do on the cheap, but the life and death of ourselves and our family is not one of them.

[Green Frog]

If someone is a non-shooter and unlikely/unwilling to learn how to shoot competently, their best gun for home defense is one wielded by somebody else! A firearm is a tool like any other, and for someone thinking its mere possession will provide a magic talisman of protection, the possibility of disaster is too high. First, plan some range time and training, then pick the firearm that they can show basic proficiency with. Otherwise, they are depending on the false premise that having the gun will somehow preclude having to use it... a fallacious belief at best. JMHO, but I would be curious to hear any valid rebuttal.

Froggie

PS Yes, I am a crotchety old guy, but I'm also 50 years a gun owner, have been a firearms instructor through the NRA and BSA, and have worked a little security and am a life member of NRA. Don't dismiss the foregoing as anti-gun... to the contrary it is pro-proper use of guns; but it is anti-fantasy and anti-self delusion.

[Rick Hodges]

If someone is a non-shooter and unlikely/unwilling to learn how to shoot competently, their best gun for home defense is one wielded by somebody else! A firearm is a tool like any other, and for someone thinking its mere possession will provide a magic talisman of protection, the possibility of disaster is too high. First, plan some range time and training, then pick the firearm that they can show basic proficiency with. Otherwise, they are depending on the false premise that having the gun will somehow preclude having to use it... a fallacious belief at best. JMHO, but I would be curious to hear any valid rebuttal.

Froggie

PS Yes, I am a crotchety old guy, but I'm also 50 years a gun owner, have been a firearms instructor through the NRA and BSA, and have worked a little security and am a life member of NRA. Don't dismiss the foregoing as anti-gun... to the contrary it is pro-proper use of guns; but it is anti-fantasy and anti-self delusion.

X-2 Froggie, and let me add they must also have the disposition to use it if it becomes necessary.

[starmac]

Nonshooter and what caliber in the same sentence, hmmm. I suggest pepper spray or even wasp spray.

[Love Life]

Snub nose 500 S&W magnum. If it don't kill em', then they'll be deaf and blind.

[Good Cheer]

A shortened barrel pump with a red dot.
Why? What? Huh?
The scope adds no weight. Doesn't make it cumbersome. Shot is shot and slugs is slugs.
Home is more than across the room and you can peg bozo with a scoped pump gun half a block away.

[bedbugbilly]

For cartridge, I'd go with 38 spl. But . . . .

Situations like what you are talking about really bother me . . . i.e. someone who wants a handgun (or shot gun or whatever) for HD but who "is not a shooter". Too many folks buy a handgun (or other weapon) with the idea that it will "protect them" if they need it. If a person is not dedicated to shooting their handgun on a regular basis . . to "learn" the handgun and how it operates and to practice . . . then maybe they should buy a ball bat? If they don't know how to use it, how it operates and develop their skills . . . it can become a danger to not only themselves but anyone else around them (i.e. loved ones) as they try to load it (in the case of a semi auto) and use it to defend themselves in a stressful situation.

Like anything else, if you don't practice, you "forget" and you will get "rusty". What good is it going to do them if they don't shoot it regularly, keep their skills up and be able to shoot it accurately enough for good shot placement?

If your friend buys a handgun . . . I hope you will stress the importance of taking a safety course and a shooting course. Any adult (with a clean background) can legally purchase and own a handgun in most states . . . the important question is do they have the knowledge and skills to use it if need be . . . . those don't come without regular range time and those things make them a "shooter" not just a "gun owner". If they aren't willing to do those things, IMHO, they need to consider other options.

[jakharath]

I second the 500 S&W, except go for the derringer.


Or for a 5 shot 38 bodyguard style revolver.

[imashooter2]

The simple presence of a gun is often all that is needed to defuse a situation, and if it doesn't, you probably wouldn't be any better off without it. It should also be noted that it doesn't take a lot of skill to hit an assailant at contact distances. Yes, practice and skill will increase the odds in your favor, but just having a firearm that you can cause to discharge will increase your odds of survival.

[FergusonTO35]

If the person in question has no intention of even minimal practice, like a couple of times a year, I think a big can of pepperspray would be a far better choice. Another thing to think about: these type of gun owners tend to be the ones who put their gun in a drawer and forget about it until it is found by a child or a criminal.

If they are willing to understand how to operate a gun and practice at least occasionally I would suggest a full size .38 Special double action revolver or 9mm autoloader. The new Glock 42 in .380 is a good choice for someone who can't deal with much recoil or muzzle jump.

[tazman]

"As for the home defense for a non shooter I would have recommended a shotgun. Probably a 20 gauge as they are relatively easy to handle. Easier to hit what you are trying to without spraying boolits all over the neighborhood."

Where do people get that idea?

Most non shooters I have been around seem to think that lots of bullets fired from a pistol equals home defense. Most novice shooters can't hit the broad side of a barn with a handgun without help, training, and practice.
Many times just the presence of a shotgun will be enough to remove the threat since most people are seriously afraid of the business end of a shotgun barrel. The length of the shotgun by itself makes it a bit more likely to be pointed in the right direction.

[Jupiter7]

It really goes both ways. Practice makes perfect. On the other hand, I have tools at home I never "practice" with and hope to never use, toilet plunger comes to mind. But man I'll be glad to have one when I need it. Obviously safe firearms handling and usage is desired but plenty have done more with less.

[gwpercle]

Non-hunter, non-shooter....think about it. 38/357 magnum revolver. I like K-frame in 38 special. Why...no safety to get off, no slide to rack , no magazine to fool with, in a stressful situation a novice might forget the loading procedure. Load the wheel gun, close the cylinder and its ready to go. Easy to tell if loaded. Pick it up-pull trigger...it fires. Simplicity is best here.
Possibly the "best" home defense for a novice is a short barreled shot gun loaded with buck. Pumps are nice ( that's what I keep handy) but a double barrel will get the job done.

Gary

[rking22]

"non hunter, nonshooter get strictly for the comfort they have home "
Agree with others about actually learning how to use /shoot/ maintain and especially when and when not to employ. That said in response to the direct question , I also agree with K frame size 38 special. For someone who is not regularly shooting an automatic is too "involved" complicated ect. Malfunctions, even if rare can lead to serious hazards.Even if they have the know how to clear, they do not have the habits that are needed for effective and safe use. As an NRA instructor I always suggest a revolver as a first handgun. Just another opinion to weigh with others.

[dragon813gt]

How long for the police to respond? A non-shooter is more than likely not going to shoot. So this means they are going to detain any perps at gun point. A long gun is more comfortable for this situation. It's less strain on your body to fully shoulder a long gun compared to holding a handgun at the ready. The answer to "what firearm should I get for self defense" is always the same. Whatever firearm you can shoot fast and hit the target every time. A shotgun loaded w/ a slug won't do a thing if you don't hit the target. If a person isn't going to take the time to become proficient w/ a firearm they shouldn't own one.

[revolvergeek]

Non shooters looking for a home protection firearm should get a full size steel .38 Special +P capable DA revolver due to the simplicty of operation and easily manageable recoil.

This is always my recommendation. Simple, takes neglect well and just plain works.

[Good Cheer]

This thread reminds me of the time about forty years ago in north Dallas that my brother-in-law got stuck up in the ally behind their house. My 120 pound sister stepped out on the back porch with a pump twelve and the perp got while the gettin' was good. Tacho later said that she didn't have her glasses on and he thought he was a dead man.

[johnme]

A youth model 20 gauge 3" pump would be great. Short stock for quick pointing. Shorter barrel. Should fit the family well. If gun laws ever change a simple pump 20 should still be able to keep. Hand guns require range time. Min. once a month. Pump shotgun with some buck shot patterning and good cleaning, every 6 months take the family down to get the feel back.

[tazman]

The answer to "what firearm should I get for self defense" is always the same. Whatever firearm you can shoot fast and hit the target every time. A shotgun loaded w/ a slug won't do a thing if you don't hit the target. If a person isn't going to take the time to become proficient w/ a firearm they shouldn't own one.

I agree with that.

[garym1a2]

Glock17/19/34.

[nekshot]

Thanks for all of your sound advice, first they know nothing but want to learn so I trust them with any gun(after proper training), second was the availability of ammo as they have no desire to stockpile. I will encourage a 38, as thats what my daughters get when they turn 21 but they have acces to dads reloading so ammo is no concern for them.

[Mik]

Any self defense situation is going to be violent, fast, and ugly. Training to deal with that situation will mean far more than the diameter, weight and speed of the projectiles leaving the gun.

By training, I don't mean marksmanship. Firing one round every ten seconds into a two inch group on a bullseye target isn't a useful skill in a gun fight.

With all that in mind, I would recommend a gun the person is willing to shoot, take to the range, and bring to training. If that is a .22, go for it.

If the person is committed to remaining a non shooter, the money would be better spent on a good dog, honestly.

If the person is willing to learn and train, I would recommend a full size, automatic handgun, without a safety.

Revolvers are great, but 6 shots could easily not be enough. Good luck getting a novice shooter to reload a revolver, in the dark, under stress, in any time that would be acceptable.

Many recommend pump shotguns because of the simplicity of the platform and the enhanced accuracy of a shoulder fired weapon. I don't agree. You would be horrified if you knew how many law enforcement officers forget they need to press the action bar lock to chamber the first round from the magazine. Some, under the time stress of qualifying, forget they need to operate the action after every shot. You only get about 4-5 rounds in a standard tube, and reloading? Forget about it. Its like watching elephants try to juggle at the circus. These are people who carry guns every day, they've qualified on the weapons and shoot them under time stress once a quarter. Its still a mess for some of them.

A glock, m&p, or XD in 9mm can give you up to 18 or 19 shots (read chances) before reloading. The gun does everything on its own, there is nothing to think about. The reload with an auto pistol is simpler and faster than a revolver and it gets you ready to go with 18 more chances.

[imashooter2]

Lots of self defense situations are slow to develop and never get to violence if the intended victim shows an ability to defend themselves.

[Texantothecore]

DA revolver
.38 Special. Easy to shoot and he may enjoy it and end up being an active gunner. It has happened before many times.

Easy on recoil, clean up and the wallet. He can shoot wax bullets for laughs and start reloading with a Lee Classic Loader for about 30 bucks. Black powder, come to think of it, would also be a possibility.

That would be the best choice by far.

[Mik]

Lots of self defense situations are slow to develop and never get to violence if the intended victim shows an ability to defend themselves.

Any gun can show that. I just happen to think its better to be equipped and prepared for a fast moving confrontation. You can always tone it down to deal with the slow ones you described.

[Sasquatch-1]

While working as a patrol officer on Capitol Hill in Washington D. C., I was often ask the question "Should I get a gun for protection." This was always after the person had been robbed in some way. My response was, "Go to the pound and find the noisiest dog there and take it home with you."

Other parts of my response were, "If you have no training in self defense, chances are that the gun will be taken away from and used on YOU." "Can you take another's life?"

[RobsTV]

I'll go along with the majority that specified.

On wife's side of bed, a S&W k frame 38 spl, and on my side a HiPoint 40 S&W (chosen over 4506-1, 4513TWS, SR45, P238, Shield 40, plus a few more, that all rest mostly in the safes or are the carry choices). An M1 .30 Carbine is also close by.

Non-shooters need to see quick and easy results. If they can pickup a gun and comfortably hit the target, they will be having fun, and they will want to do it more. But if the gun is powerful enough that shooting is not comfortable (357ish, or even a small plastic KelTec 32acp), or if it takes more skill to be accurate and they do not regularly hit the target, they will not enjoy shooting and will not practice as much or at all.

[44MAG#1]

The shotgun idea is okay in theory but in actual use as a home defense gun I think it is wrong for a reason most are missing coming up with.

[imashooter2]

Any gun can show that. I just happen to think its better to be equipped and prepared for a fast moving confrontation. You can always tone it down to deal with the slow ones you described.


No one disagrees with the premise that it is better to be hard trained and well armed in order to most effectively deal with the widest range of threats. I disagree with statements like "If the person is committed to remaining a non shooter, the money would be better spent on a good dog, honestly." It simply isn't true that a gun has no value in self defense to an untrained individual.

[ACrowe25]

Ruger 38 spl

[tazman]

The shotgun idea is okay in theory but in actual use as a home defense gun I think it is wrong for a reason most are missing coming up with.

I am very much interested in your reason. Please give some details. You may be able to change my mind.

[contender1]

I do a lot of teaching to ladies in NRA Women On Target clinics. I have done so for about 13 years. Most of these ladies are non-shooters, but want to learn for SD.
That said, I can fully agree with a few of the posters above.
First, introduce them to shooting by using a 22 LR. Once they are comfortable with that, move to the 38 Spl in a steel DA revolver. Preferrably a 357 cal gun. More weight, less felt recoil. Teach them with 38 spl target ammo & then once comfortable, allow them a few SD 357's to know what it feels like.
A DA revolver is the KISS method of shooting for non-shooters.
Char-Gar makes a very valid point. If you are going to bet your life on only ONE firearm, I would spend a lot more money to assure myself of a high quality, well know, DEPENDABLE brand of a firearm.
And Green Frog makes a very good point as well. Many of the ladies I teach appreciate it when I say; "Not everybody should own a firearm. I request you look long & hard at yourself & ask; "Can I kill another human being if necessary?" before choosing a SD firearm. If you can not KNOW that you could use deadly force in self defense, I do not recommend you get a firearm."
But, many people ignore this as well.

There are many arguments as to "what is best" but I always put it to the KISS method test when subjects like this arise.

[FergusonTO35]

I guess we need to clarify what kind of a non-shooter this is. Are they someone whose sole gun knowledge and experience has come from television? Or someone who has some hands on experience, such as hunting or military service, but just doesn't do any nowadays?

[44MAG#1]

"I am very much interested in your reason. Please give some details. You may be able to change my mind. "

The size of the gun is one clue I am giving you.
You made the statement that a shotgun is what you recommended: "As for the home defense for a non shooter I would have recommended a shotgun. Probably a 20 gauge as they are relatively easy to handle. Easier to hit what you are trying to without spraying boolits all over the neighborhood."

Lets see if you can use my clue to figure it out.

[Mk42gunner]

I was a Rangemaster in the Navy for close to 14 years.

Handguns of any type are difficult to shoot accurately under stress. Even if you are in practice.

Manually operated shotguns (pumps) get short stroked regularly on the qualification course.

My two recommendations are:
1. A tube fed .22 semi-auto rifle. Tube fed because there is no loosing the magazine. A Marlin Model 60 from the days of full length magazines hold a lot of rounds and are easy to learn to shoot.

2. An M1 Carbine with GI 15 round magazines. Easy to shoot and doesn't look like the "evil assault rifle" to non-shooters. Most people I have talked to that actually used them in combat didn't have many complaints.

Biggest recommendation is for this person to get some safety training and range time.

Robert

[jimb16]

As a former instructor with nearly 40 years of experience, I have to go with the .38 special Use 38s for practice and +Ps for protection. In a real "situation" the'll never notice the difference.

[JSnover]

Snub nose 500 S&W magnum. If it don't kill em', then they'll be deaf and blind.

I fired one cylinder full of 500 SWM. That was all I needed. I disliked it so much I would never practice with it. I could use it as a club... So I guess I'd never have to buy ammo.

[Mik]

No one disagrees with the premise that it is better to be hard trained and well armed in order to most effectively deal with the widest range of threats. I disagree with statements like "If the person is committed to remaining a non shooter, the money would be better spent on a good dog, honestly." It simply isn't true that a gun has no value in self defense to an untrained individual.

OK, no problem with that. I happen to see a large dog as a good way to deter a home intrusion. If you are past the point of deterrence, no doubt, a gun is your best option.

However, if you only have 400 bucks to spend, and you don't want to train with a firearm, I think you will get more mileage out of a dog. Its the "ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure" theory.

If you are trying to break into a house and hear a dog go ballistic on the other side of the door, you know the dog is onto you, you know the people in the house are alerted, and you know its going to be a fight if you continue into that house. If I'm the bad guy, there isn't much that would keep me from packing up an moving onto a new target.

[Texantothecore]

Rules for helping noobies begin shooting.


1. The caliber must be available and at reasonable cost. 22 lr fails this test and will continue to do so for a very long time.
2. The cleaning of the gun should be straightforward and quickly done. Most semis fail this test with the result that many noobies never shoot semis because they don't want spend all night chasing flying parts around the room. They want to watch "Dancing With the Stars".
3. The gun, as much as possible, should not jam.
4. Recoil must be comfortable for the new shooter.
5. The gun must be of moderate cost so that the new shooter can get in and of the discipline without a major loss.
6. The cartridge must be reloadable. We don't know when this shortage will be resolved but my feeling is that it could be 5 to 10 years before we see reasonable ammo and components prices again.

If a proposed gun fails any one of the above tests it is eliminated.

[WRideout]

I must be an outlier, but the gun in the sock drawer is a 22LR Browning Buckmark with two magazines. FWIW, I once attended to a patient in the ER who came in with a GSW. As I did chest compressions, I looked for an entrance wound, but could not find it. After the docs pronounced him, I took my hands off his chest and found right under my palm, a 22 caliber hole. He was well and truly dead.

Wayne

[44MAG#1]

Tazman
Have you gave anymore thought as to why I made the statement that I did on shotguns for home protection other than that fuzzy whizzy feeling that you have a gun in the house?

[tazman]

Tazman
Have you gave anymore thought as to why I made the statement that I did on shotguns for home protection other than that fuzzy whizzy feeling that you have a gun in the house?

I don't play guessing games. If you want to express your opinion, you will. I am not going to make assumptions about what you want to say.

[44MAG#1]

Tazman

I was just wondering if you could actually come up with the answer. What makes a defensive firearm effective???
It really is a simple question with a very simple answer that many don't get.

[tazman]

Tazman

I was just wondering if you could actually come up with the answer. What makes a defensive firearm effective???
It really is a simple question with a very simple answer that many don't get.

Please read post number 53

[44MAG#1]

I clearly know your answer now.

[9.3X62AL]

Guessing games dissuade me from contributing or commenting.

True "home defense" is better accomplished with a shotgun than with a handgun. The working of a slide action has a very disincentivizing sound to it. Twice--on felony stops--I've had suspects urinate involuntarily immediately after I worked the slide. If your home defense shotgun has "limited capacity", there are solutions to that issue at reasonable cost. The premise that a pump shotgun is difficult to refill is bullsquat. Use birdshot/target loads in place of buckshot or slugs inside a residence--at the ranges involved, shot size or slug composition won't matter a darn--a rat hole wound is guaranteed if the shot is placed well, and gauge won't matter either--12 through 410. Patterns expand 1" diametrically for every yard of forward flight, regardless of choke or gauge. Choke boring will concentrate slightly more shot into the center of the pattern via elongation of the shot cloud, but again that won't matter if a hit is made. The effectiveness of a shotgun over a sideram in both dissuading and (if necessary) STOPPING a deadly assault is so pre-eminent that the subject almost brooks no discussion. It is like comparing a Fiat 500 to my F-250 for boat-towing.

Not all of our girls are regular shooters, but they all do at least some firing several times a year. None have chosen a revolver, 2 have Glocks, 1 opts for SIG-Sauer. Wife Marie has one of each, 9mm SIG and 40 S&W Glock. She is a gun crank, though.

[44MAG#1]

Here is the one thing I was getting at. A firearm regardless of caliber or style is no use if it is not going to be where one can get their hands on it in a quickly fashion. You can have a 12 0r 20 0r 410 gauge pump, semi-auto, 500 S&W revolver, 22 RF revolver, or a 45 auto or a 9 M/M. It doesn't matter one bit if the gun is in the underwear drawer covered with yours or hers drawers, Standing in the closet, standing in the corner of a room you are not in. Or locked in a gun cabinet.
How many people buy the big bad 12 gauge and it resides in a separate room from them or the semi-auto that is in the dresser drawer while they are somewhere else in the house and it gives them the fuzzy feeling they are somehow protected?
With more and more brazen drug addled kooks nowadays breaking in in broad daylight or the idiots that do home invasions how will those distant guns work for you?
The gun that is the best is the one you have within arms reach or on your hip regardless of caliber, gauge, length or action type.
Most long guns aren't within easy reach.
That is the reason I am not keen on them.
It is easy to have handguns laying in most rooms.
Including a few knives too.
My handgun is within easy reach. You can bet your bankroll on that.

[tazman]

True "home defense" is better accomplished with a shotgun than with a handgun. The working of a slide action has a very disincentivizing sound to it. Twice--on felony stops--I've had suspects urinate involuntarily immediately after I worked the slide. If your home defense shotgun has "limited capacity", there are solutions to that issue at reasonable cost. The premise that a pump shotgun is difficult to refill is bullsquat. Use birdshot/target loads in place of buckshot or slugs inside a residence--at the ranges involved, shot size or slug composition won't matter a darn--a rat hole wound is guaranteed if the shot is placed well, and gauge won't matter either--12 through 410. Patterns expand 1" diametrically for every yard of forward flight, regardless of choke or gauge. Choke boring will concentrate slightly more shot into the center of the pattern via elongation of the shot cloud, but again that won't matter if a hit is made. The effectiveness of a shotgun over a sideram in both dissuading and (if necessary) STOPPING a deadly assault is so pre-eminent that the subject almost brooks no discussion. It is like comparing a Fiat 500 to my F-250 for boat-towing.


I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[Petrol & Powder]

Guessing games dissuade me from contributing or commenting.

True "home defense" is better accomplished with a shotgun than with a handgun. The working of a slide action has a very disincentivizing sound to it. Twice--on felony stops--I've had suspects urinate involuntarily immediately after I worked the slide. If your home defense shotgun has "limited capacity", there are solutions to that issue at reasonable cost. The premise that a pump shotgun is difficult to refill is bullsquat. Use birdshot/target loads in place of buckshot or slugs inside a residence--at the ranges involved, shot size or slug composition won't matter a darn--a rat hole wound is guaranteed if the shot is placed well, and gauge won't matter either--12 through 410. Patterns expand 1" diametrically for every yard of forward flight, regardless of choke or gauge. Choke boring will concentrate slightly more shot into the center of the pattern via elongation of the shot cloud, but again that won't matter if a hit is made. The effectiveness of a shotgun over a sideram in both dissuading and (if necessary) STOPPING a deadly assault is so pre-eminent that the subject almost brooks no discussion. It is like comparing a Fiat 500 to my F-250 for boat-towing.

Not all of our girls are regular shooters, but they all do at least some firing several times a year. None have chosen a revolver, 2 have Glocks, 1 opts for SIG-Sauer. Wife Marie has one of each, 9mm SIG and 40 S&W Glock. She is a gun crank, though.

/\ I completely agree. Handguns are very poor substitutes for long guns. A shotgun is an extremely effective weapon against humans at close ranges. Handguns are useful alternatives to long guns only when long guns are not practical. Handguns should be selected as primary weapons over long guns only for the following types of reasons: Extreme close quarters (like in a tunnel), need to have at least one hand free (driving, flying, etc), the need to be armed while primarily engaged in other tasks, the ability to re-holster the weapon quickly and have both hands available, the need to conceal the weapon and a few other reasons.
A shotgun is a far better weapon for home defense than a handgun. There is ZERO need to conceal a home defense weapon when it is being deployed. It is far easier to obtain hits, even at short ranges, with a long gun. Those hits from a shotgun are far more effective at stopping the threat. It's easy to operate under stress and it's easy to maintain.
The hoopla concerning "over-penetration" is of secondary concern if you hit you target and only one of many problems if you miss. I wouldn't select a 30-06 rifle or 1 oz slugs for home defense but any projectile capable of stopping a threat is probably capable of penetrating 2 sheets of 1/2" drywall and then some. I'd rather have something that is more likely to hit the bad guy and stop the bad guy than something that is less effective.
A reliable pump action shotgun that holds 4 rounds is a very formidable weapon at the ranges encountered in most homes. If your home is so large that shot shells become ineffective inside your house......you can probably afford a security force.

A handgun is a tool used to fight your way to a long gun.

If you want to buy a handgun, GREAT! Buy as many as you want but don't use home defense as an excuse to buy a handgun. You don't need to justify your reason for wanting a handgun by claiming it's for home defense. If you want a handgun, gun one. In fact, get as many as you want.

If you want an effective home defense gun, get a pump action shotgun.

[44MAG#1]

Which one will more likely to be near when you need it?

Answer that question.
Kinda like the people that recommend a rifle for bear protection while hiking knowing good and well most wont carry a rifle.

[Petrol & Powder]

If you want to wear a holstered handgun in your home 24/7, have at it.

I bet that shotgun behind the bedroom door will be just as available.

[44MAG#1]

That sir, depends on where the bedroom is right?

[Petrol & Powder]

Do what you think is best.

[9.3X62AL]

44Mag#1's point is a valid one--access and proximity favors a handgun. A sidearm in the bedroom when you are in the living room isn't much good, though--and the shotgun in the bedroom does better work. I don't have firearms secreted around my residence......one handgun is outside the safe and often (but not always) on my person, and one Rem 870 with rifle-sighted 20" barrel and 3-round mag tube extender is "centrally located", let's just say, status Condition 4. A working life spent in harm's way with frequency accustoms you to having a war toy or 2 readily accessible.

My thoughts on personal sideiron involve a SIG P-220 x 45 ACP. For less-practiced and less-experienced shooters it is difficult to fault a 4" medium-framed 38 Special/357 Magnum double-action revolver. This platform has a wide spread of performance capability via its ammo selection variety, from mild to wild.

Our girls wanted no part of revolvers. They wanted Glocks, excepting Hannah--who likes Dad's classic SIGs very much. (I'm now on the hook for a P-227, once they become available in the known world). She shoots a 45 VERY well. I like handgun calibers to start with number "4" or to send their bullets in excess of 1200 FPS. I despise the 147 grain FBI-pimped 9mm "subsonic" load. It barely equates to a 38 Special. The current M-882 9mm ballistics combined with a controlled-expansion bullet is a good option--125 grain @ 1250 FPS. That's closer to 357 Magnum than it is to 38 Special. The 40 S&W and the 45 ACP are excellent, and most of our female deputies use and carry these calibers quite capably. One element I would stress for any shooter that chooses an autopistol.......the skill set needed to run a self-loader is far more perishable than is the skill set needed to run a wheelgun. If you cannot commit to firing at least 4X/year, select the revolver over the stuttergun. Some combination of the revolver skill set is much like that of bicycle riding......it stays with people very well. Autopistols, not so much--they demand more from their users.

Just random ramblings from a 28-year LEO that spent 23 of those years as a part-time firearms trainer.

[tazman]

Normally if someone is breaking into your home, you will hear them and have time to reach your shotgun. Most bedrooms take less time to get to than it takes the bad guy to get into your house and reach you.
If you are a sound enough sleeper that you don't wake up until they are in the room with you, you are toast anyway. Certainly you can dream up a scenario where they break in between you and your gun. How likely is that to happen?
I don't feel I need to have a weapon instantly available at all times. Probably comes from living in a small town. I could see a different attitude living in a large town.

[44MAG#1]

I was just trying in my own stupid way to get the point across that it needs to be a firearm, regardless what you want a firearm that is where on can get to it in a moments notice. Sure having a gun gives us a warm feeling but without easy access it is basically useless.
Like having seatbelts and not wearing them.
Whatever one wants don't be fooled into believing a break in or a home invasion is going to happen only when you are where that scattergun or some unhandy handgun is going to be.
When it is unhandy it is unlikely to be where you are when you need it.

[44MAG#1]

Tazman

What about the home invasions etc that are now happening in more and more frequency?
What if you have distance between you and you defense firearm are you sure you are going to hear a break in? Are you listening to every little sound?
If you are you are that paranoid you to need to carry not have a scattergun standing in the corner of some room.

[44MAG#1]

My gun and I are now going out to the building to load some ammo now. I hope to be safe in the 15 feet I have to travel from my back door to the door of my building.

[tazman]

Tazman

What if you have distance between you and you defense firearm are you sure you are going to hear a break in? Are you listening to every little sound?
If you are you are that paranoid you to need to carry not have a scattergun standing in the corner of some room.

Having been a hunter since I was old enough to keep both ends of the gun off the ground, I hear anything out of the ordinary. It isn't paranoia, it is simple situational awareness.

If I were paranoid I would be carrying at all times. Probably at least 2 weapons or more.

[Mik]

Guessing games dissuade me from contributing or commenting.

True "home defense" is better accomplished with a shotgun than with a handgun. The working of a slide action has a very disincentivizing sound to it. Twice--on felony stops--I've had suspects urinate involuntarily immediately after I worked the slide. If your home defense shotgun has "limited capacity", there are solutions to that issue at reasonable cost. The premise that a pump shotgun is difficult to refill is bullsquat. Use birdshot/target loads in place of buckshot or slugs inside a residence--at the ranges involved, shot size or slug composition won't matter a darn--a rat hole wound is guaranteed if the shot is placed well, and gauge won't matter either--12 through 410. Patterns expand 1" diametrically for every yard of forward flight, regardless of choke or gauge. Choke boring will concentrate slightly more shot into the center of the pattern via elongation of the shot cloud, but again that won't matter if a hit is made. The effectiveness of a shotgun over a sideram in both dissuading and (if necessary) STOPPING a deadly assault is so pre-eminent that the subject almost brooks no discussion. It is like comparing a Fiat 500 to my F-250 for boat-towing.

Not all of our girls are regular shooters, but they all do at least some firing several times a year. None have chosen a revolver, 2 have Glocks, 1 opts for SIG-Sauer. Wife Marie has one of each, 9mm SIG and 40 S&W Glock. She is a gun crank, though.

Spoken like a man who knows what he is talking about.

I disagree with only one part, if you aren't trained, you aren't going to run a pump shotgun effectively in a gun fight.

If you were a firearms instructor, I'm sure you've seen "non shooters" 1) forget how and when to use the action bar lock 2) forget to disengage the safety 3) try to baby the action back and forth 4) not notice they were empty and 5) drop shells when reloading.

[44MAG#1]

you are the man alright.

[Mik]

44Mag#1's point is a valid one--access and proximity favors a handgun. A sidearm in the bedroom when you are in the living room isn't much good, though--and the shotgun in the bedroom does better work. I don't have firearms secreted around my residence......one handgun is outside the safe and often (but not always) on my person, and one Rem 870 with rifle-sighted 20" barrel and 3-round mag tube extender is "centrally located", let's just say, status Condition 4. A working life spent in harm's way with frequency accustoms you to having a war toy or 2 readily accessible.

My thoughts on personal sideiron involve a SIG P-220 x 45 ACP. For less-practiced and less-experienced shooters it is difficult to fault a 4" medium-framed 38 Special/357 Magnum double-action revolver. This platform has a wide spread of performance capability via its ammo selection variety, from mild to wild.

Our girls wanted no part of revolvers. They wanted Glocks, excepting Hannah--who likes Dad's classic SIGs very much. (I'm now on the hook for a P-227, once they become available in the known world). She shoots a 45 VERY well. I like handgun calibers to start with number "4" or to send their bullets in excess of 1200 FPS. I despise the 147 grain FBI-pimped 9mm "subsonic" load. It barely equates to a 38 Special. The current M-882 9mm ballistics combined with a controlled-expansion bullet is a good option--125 grain @ 1250 FPS. That's closer to 357 Magnum than it is to 38 Special. The 40 S&W and the 45 ACP are excellent, and most of our female deputies use and carry these calibers quite capably. One element I would stress for any shooter that chooses an autopistol.......the skill set needed to run a self-loader is far more perishable than is the skill set needed to run a wheelgun. If you cannot commit to firing at least 4X/year, select the revolver over the stuttergun. Some combination of the revolver skill set is much like that of bicycle riding......it stays with people very well. Autopistols, not so much--they demand more from their users.

Just random ramblings from a 28-year LEO that spent 23 of those years as a part-time firearms trainer.

You wouldn't know it unless you saw it, but a subsonic 147gr 9mm out-penetrates a high velocity 125 gr 9mm (given expanding projectiles).

A 147gr 9mm is only slightly inferior to a .40 in terms of depth and consistency of penetration. Here is the part that will start a riot, a sub sonic 147gr 9mm penetrates further and more consistently than a standard .45. I don't know why this, so please don't attack me. I'm just telling you what I've seen.

Most reduced recoil slugs out-penetrate full-power slugs as well. Go figure.

[tazman]

Spoken like a man who knows what he is talking about.

I disagree with only one part, if you aren't trained, you aren't going to run a pump shotgun effectively in a gun fight.

If you were a firearms instructor, I'm sure you've seen "non shooters" 1) forget how and when to use the action bar lock 2) forget to disengage the safety 3) try to baby the action back and forth 4) not notice they were empty and 5) drop shells when reloading.

You have touched the major point. If you aren't trained to proficiency in the use of your firearm, there is a good probability you will fail in a stress situation. Whatever weapon you choose, practice until you know your weapon.
If the person isn't going to practice, I am not certain I would want to be the one helping them find a firearm. I would have to think about that for a while.
I realize others have said much the same thing in this thread.

[9.3X62AL]

No attack pending, the 9mm has been historically problematic in terms of stopping ability. Even with the sub-sonic FacklerNukes, the caliber still seems to take 4-8 hits to get the concept across, while the 40 and 45 take roughly half as many to stop the nonsense. As for the slug penetration, either projectile will do the job VERY well. The current fad in defensive shooting circles is to emphasize "penetration" as the core ballistic element of fight-stopping. In the 1970s, the "Super Vel" light bullet/uber-velocity/fast-expansion creed was the Holy Grail. Neither is the answer. Good hits that take out critical systems are required. No handgun, especially with single hits, excels at halting violent attacks. The trip-hammer effects of multiple hits to critical organs is paramount with handgun calibers, and the Brain Housing Group is perhaps the single best bullet trap we have, given its eye sockets for funneling and simultaneous eyesight shutdown. Not pleasant cocktail conversation, but it's a nasty business, this survival bit.

If our personnel made a habit of mishandling shells repeatedly during firing/loading sequences, we had answers for that--it's called jail assignments. Our deputies cleared and loaded the 870's every day. The sequence became second nature for most.

[Mik]

No attack pending, the 9mm has been historically problematic in terms of stopping ability. Even with the sub-sonic FacklerNukes, the caliber still seems to take 4-8 hits to get the concept across, while the 40 and 45 take roughly half as many to stop the nonsense. As for the slug penetration, either projectile will do the job VERY well.

If our personnel made a habit of mishandling shells repeatedly during firing/loading sequences, we had answers for that--it's called jail assignments. Our deputies cleared and loaded the 870's every day. The sequence became second nature for most.

Right, your deputies were trained to hold onto those things and get them into the gun quickly. They handled an 870 every day until loading and unloading was like tying a shoe.

I'm not sure that would qualify as a "non shooter".

I'm with you, if you know you are going into a gunfight, there is no reason to grab a handgun over a shotgun.

However, I'm envisioning the scenario more along the lines of an untrained person being woken up by the sound of an intruder in their house or worse, their bedroom. If that situation turns into a deadly fight, trigger mashing might be the only thing the untrained person is capable of.

For that, I think its hard to beat a high capacity automatic handgun on the nightstand.

Are there stats on the effectiveness of the 147gr 9mm? I'd be interested in reading those. It seems to be the new round of choice in some circles. I saw a ballistics gel/barrier demo and was pretty impressed.

[tazman]

I'm with you, if you know you are going into a gunfight, there is no reason to grab a handgun over a shotgun.


That statement made me think of a quote attributed to a policeman going to church who was wearing his sidearm. He was asked by one of the parishioners if he was expecting trouble. He answered" If I was expecting trouble I would have brought my shotgun".

[9.3X62AL]

The onset of the 147 grain JHP 9mm was one of the several outgrowths of the much-studied FBI Miami shootout occurring in 1986, in which one of the after-action "conclusions" was that the Winchester Silvertip ammo used by FBI at the time failed in terms of effectiveness. This same ST was our issue ammo in 9mm for a time, and we had no shootings with it--our policies at that time strongly favored the 45 ACP over the 9mm, and in 1987 the 40 S&W didn't exist. That ST round ran a 115 grain HP bullet at 1200-1225 FPS from 4" barrels. The testing with gelatin can "prove" many things to the cats in the lab coats.......but the 147 JHP is a 15% down-load from the caliber's capability, and it is counter-intuitive to me as a lifelong hunter and long-time law officer to de-tune a ballistic tool in order to increase its lethality. That isn't logical. The handgun is already a considerable compromise of stopping energy in favor of portability, why reduce its potential power even further? I just don't buy the line that Dr. Fackler and FBI are selling.

Most of our shootings with the 147 sub-sonic 9mm round have been by our SWAT teams with SMGs. They work, from SMGs. At 650-700 rounds per minute, you do the math on round count into recipients. Very few deputies carry 9mm pistols, the 40 S&W has almost totally eclipsed the 9mm in our sideiron choices--and the former bias favoring the 45 no longer exists, 9mm/38 Special/357 Magnum/40 S&W/45 ACP are on an even field of play. 40 S&W is a HUGE favorite, 45 ACP still has a healthy following. Something to consider.......all of the "formulae" used to calculate predicted caliber terminal performance "square" some value in the ballistic equation--velocity, bullet weight, or bullet diameter. Bullet DIAMETER is the only one of those measurements that actually and empirically gets squared as it increases on a linear scale in the real world. For me and my firearm, I want all the bullet weight--velocity--diameter--magazine capacity I can get. I WANT IT ALL, AND I WANT IT NOW.

[Piedmont]

If I were paranoid I would be carrying at all times. Probably at least 2 weapons or more.

So if we are smart enough to carry a gun that makes us paranoid. Seems you have all the answers.

Your previous comments on house layouts and having time to get to your bedroom in the case of a B&E are completely wrong the way my house is configured.

[Piedmont]

9.3x62AL, John Farnam very recently posted in his Quips on the internet that for the first time in years the 9mm Luger is again the most used police handgun. Interesting. Part of it may be that it is easier to shoot than heavier calibers. Maybe part is cost, but I doubt the change would be happening if they considered the 9mm not up to the task.

[Mik]

The testing with gelatin can "prove" many things to the cats in the lab coats.......but the 147 JHP is a 15% down-load from the caliber's capability, and it is counter-intuitive to me as a lifelong hunter and long-time law officer to de-tune a ballistic tool in order to increase its lethality. That isn't logical. The handgun is already a considerable compromise of stopping energy in favor of portability, why reduce its potential power even further? I just don't buy the line that Dr. Fackler and FBI are selling.

Its not logical to me either. There must be more to it than mass, diameter, and energy. I think projectile design and construction are an often overlooked factor.

I think its based on the theory that, when it comes to incapacitation with a handgun, the projectile needs to damage a vital body part. To damage a vital body part, the projectile has to penetrate deep enough to reach it. Once it does that, it really doesn't matter if the bullet has a diameter of .357 or .45 - that's less than a tenth of an inch - based on projectile design, the expanded difference could be slightly more, or slightly less.

So, if the 147gr penetrates as well as the other calibers, and does roughly the same damage once it reaches a vital body part, why not carry a gun that is more controllable in rapid fire and gives you 18 chances to hit those vital body parts. That's the theory anyway. I can't say I disagree with it.

[tazman]

So if we are smart enough to carry a gun that makes us paranoid. Seems you have all the answers.

Your previous comments on house layouts and having time to get to your bedroom in the case of a B&E are completely wrong the way my house is configured.

If you read the comment I was responding to, I was being accused of paranoia for being able to hear some one break into my house. I was only commenting on what I would be doing if I , personally, was paranoid. I made no comments about people who have good reasons to carry.
As I further said, living in a different town than I currently do would have a different set of circumstances and attitudes involved. If I were living in a larger city, I suspect I would be carrying also.
Not all houses are the same. I admitted that too.
Why are you pulling single lines out of context and twisting them into something I did not say?

[44MAG#1]

"If you read the comment I was responding to, I was being accused of paranoia for being able to hear some one break into my house."

I listen to sounds too but where I live we hear many sounds. Some familiar and some not due to the neighbors, vehicles, dogs and a myriad or other reasons. If I ran and got my shotgun, which is unloaded locked in the gun cabinet every time I heard a suspicious sound, meaning out of the ordinary, which is generally nothing, I would keep it next to me at all times.
Well I keep a handgun which is more compact, easier to keep with me and ready to get into action if need be.
A 22 RF that is very close is better than a clunky handgun or even more clunky long gun regardless or caliber or gauge that is somewhere that is slower to acquire when it is needed.
If anyone can't see that then they need to seriously critique their ability to comprehend anything reasonable.
We all know one needs to be familiar with their firearms to be proficient with them and that a NONSHOOTER would be probably better served with a dog as stated before.
Try to comprehend what I have been saying.

[tazman]

Just out of curiosity, how many times has having that pistol handy actually saved you from an attack by some one breaking into your house?
This is not an attack, just a curious question.

[44MAG#1]

"Just out of curiosity, how many times has having that pistol handy actually saved you from an attack by some one breaking into your house?"

Fortunately not any and I hope it stays that way but I am ready if and when. At least I don't have to rush to another room to get my firearm if I ever do have to defend my home.
Isnt that the main goal?
Of course some on here are much more able to beat down an attacker or a thug than I am.
You maybe able to take a gun or knife away from a thug or creep and give him a spanking and send him on his way all the while giving him instruction on not aggravating people any more.
Me I cant. I am not a scrapper, and I am smart enough to know that.

[9.3X62AL]

9.3x62AL, John Farnam very recently posted in his Quips on the internet that for the first time in years the 9mm Luger is again the most used police handgun. Interesting. Part of it may be that it is easier to shoot than heavier calibers. Maybe part is cost, but I doubt the change would be happening if they considered the 9mm not up to the task.

Piedmont, factoids like that contributed by Mr. Farnham (sp?) are interesting, but ignore the dichotomy that the people with the most input on caliber selection at most agencies--the brass-hat boys--also are the least likely to be directly affected by the effects of those choices, because at their lofty station they almost never get shot at. Same deal with the kids in the lab coats doing the cavity measurements in the Jello--they have a lot less "skin" in the game. Agencies like mine that offer a wide choice of caliber/make/model options FOR WHICH THE DEPUTY COUGHS UP HIS/HER OWN MONEY TO ACQUIRE show a STRONG preference for the "I want it all" viewpoint--the typical sidearm chosen at my old shop is a high-capacity 40 S&W of full size for uniform use, and often a scaled-down variant of that model for back-up or off-duty roles. Glock and SIG-Sauer figure highly here, since ammo and magazine commonality can be accomplished easily. There have been a couple attempts to revise the standards to a single-system/single-caliber model like LAPD and LASO generally follow, but given 3500 deputies to equip and the maintenance & logistics tail involved in said issuance.......it seems dumb to hit up the taxpayers and likely upset the personnel to no good end beyond standardization. It ain't broke--so don't "fix" it.

The most critical element of the defensive shooting equation remains hit locations--the plurality is intentional. Put 2 rounds where they are biggest, and follow that with 1-2 in the Brain Housing Group. That has been our training doctrine since forever, and is incorporated into the quals regimen. Citizen CCW or LEO, that first shot fired MUST CONNECT--and connect well--and all succeeding shots should be placed as well as possible. Misses will kill you and bystanders both.

I am pretty passionate about this subject, and have gone a little far afield here. Sorry about that.

[tazman]

44mag#1
I understand your point about having a firearm close by for quick access. The way my house is set up, I have quick access to the bedroom from almost anywhere in the house and the shotgun is not in a safe or closet but is still unavailable to children. I also suspect your situation is more dangerous than mine is. If I were in a more dangerous situation than I am, I would be taking different measures than I do now.
You need to do whatever it takes to make sure you and your family are safe.

[44MAG#1]

"44mag#1
I understand your point about having a firearm close by for quick access."

Okay.

Most areas are getting more dangerous, not necessarily dangerous now but more as time goes on.
Home invasions were unheard of here several years ago but are happening more as time goes on. Not that here are many but it makes one think.
Especially if one is bearing down on becoming elderly or sickly. People know elderly people may have drugs in their home etc which may fuel such a situation. Other than getting older we are still fairly healthy.
I am not going to take a chance myself. That is the whole point of having a home protection firearm. Just like wearing PPE in a situation where it may be needed. To late to take out the safety glasses from ones pocket after one has an eye injury. Right?? But they were still so close. They were just in my pocket. What maybe 8, 9 inches away? BUT still not being worn.

[9.3X62AL]

Regardless what my career field might have been, it is NOT my place to "judge" the firearm carrying or access habits a person might develop. Most folks do a right fine job of running careers, running households, paying bills, raising kids, and otherwise having a life. None of my business if someone wants to cart a handgun around on their person--in their car--or within their house/business. I am not in your shoes--if you ask my opinion, I'll share it--but otherwise I'll stay low and keep dark on that subject.

Some more factoids, this time concerning society becoming a more dangerous place, and having to do with home invasion robberies/assaults. The potential for society to become a more dangerous place is clear and present, as evidenced by California's AB 109 statute turning thousands of state prison inmates loose after serving small fractions of their sentences, assisted in no small way by the 9th Circuit's visceral hatred for imprisonment as a correctional concept. And trends that start in CA tend to flow eastward, so be forewarned. Crime statistics are at the lowest levels in decades, and the (expletives deleted) legislatures and black-robed squares can't leave well enough alone. For all these reasons, a person would be wise to learn some self-defensive skills and be mindful of more hairballs running around loose. And whatever airhead leftist moonbat developed the idea that drug offenses are non-violent needs to be taken out and flogged. What unvarnished idiocy.

That's the bad news.

Now for a little reassurance. Home invasion/intrusion robberies/assaults have been going on in the areas I worked since I started in the bizness c. 1977. Only in recent years have these crimes gotten much printer's ink or I'mWitless News sound bytes, though--and with sound reasons. More often than not--by at least a plurality--the victims of these crimes are criminals themselves. Perhaps not EVERY resident at a crime scene is scandalous, but at least one of them living there is a drug user/dealer, thief, on active parole, or otherwise known to the suspects. Having an active parolee in residence GUARANTEES that firearms for defensive use are likely absent, otherwise the parolee can't reside there. THERE is a low-life incentive for ya. Doper maggots and thieves are intrinsically scandalous, and the less opulent victims of their depredations are wont to look them up and 'balance the books' informally. More often than not--the reports of these matters are NOT made by the victims themselves, but by uninvolved neighbors or witnesses that see and hear the attack going on. Once the po-po gets on scene, the victims often flee or develop profound memory lapses about what occurred or who the assailants might have been. A large number of these occurrences go completely unreported due to the victim demographics of the targeted population, for the same reason that drug dealers don't report narcotics thefts or johns seldom report pimp or hooker muggings. So--unless you're 'taking in strays' or involved in some nefarious enterprise......a home invasion shouldn't be a huge concern. These variables get left out from news accounts because to include them would inspire less anxiety than leaving the space blank--and the newsies are most definitely in the business of scaring the living daylights out of their audience, as opposed to providing valid information upon which to base good decisions. If it bleeds, it leads--whores for sensationalism.

[44MAG#1]

While I am very well aware that the news reports are now catching up with what has been happening for years and also exaggerating things and they use them to get ratings I am also aware that things are getting worse as time goes on.
While I am not expecting a rash of home invasions in my neighborhood I realize that they could happen. To dismiss that possibility is akin to doing what I posted in my previous post about PPE.
I mostly wear my gun while at home especially with street clothes. Even while wearing lounging pants I have the gun close by.
That is my choice. That may not be your choice. We all have our own ways right or wrong.
With more activity on the streets by cars we don't recognize etc. We don't know who may be looking for a residence to target because that couple may be elderly and an easy mark.
While I have never needed shooting glasses while shooting I STILL wear them. Just because I have never needed them doesn't mean I won't need them in the morn if I go shooting.
As the old saying goes: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
Some like living on the edge more than I do. I can't out run a creep or out fight one either. So on and so forth.
Oh yes, I am not 'taking in strays' or involved in some nefarious activities either just providing that prevention and cure.

[lar45]

I think that for a Non-Shooter, that they should be talked into becoming a new shooter.
For a new shooter, it looks like the main question is a long gun or handgun.
For a new Shooter, my preference would be a double action revolver. You pull the trigger and it goes bang!
One of the more versitile calibers on the market is the 357mag. The shooter has 3 factory choices for power level, 38 spl, 38+P, and 357mag. If you wanted to go bigger, an argument for the 44spl could be made, or for the 45Colt and or 410. The 41 mag might make the list also, but seems to have very few options for a self defence role. Taurus used to make a nice little 5 shot revolver in 45acp. If one could be found, it should make a nice self defence piece.

For a long gun, Rifle or Shotgun? If I needed a long gun to protect myself at close range it would be a shotgun. I'd prefer a 12ga, but the new shooter may get along with a 20ga better. Load it with bird shot and help them get proficient at shredding close range targets.
A strong case for a rifle could be made also. I would think that it should be light and quick, easy operate and of relitivly low power as far as rifle rounds go, ie 30 carbine, 30-30, 7.62x39, 223...
If we move the shooter up to a rifle, then more training and familiarity will definatly be needed.

I personally have only needed a firearm once to defuse a situation. I was in the Navy going to a school in SanDiego. After class one night some friends and I went off base for some non-navy food. On our way back, we strayed into a dimly lit parking lot and the resident troll was quick to come out and tell us that we were tresspassing and owed him for it. He started getting in my friends face demanding payment, I slipped my hand into my fanny pack and pulled a FMJ 45/410 derringer loaded with 2 1/2" 410 no.4s. I cocked it and held it alongside my leg, then started staring him down. When the Troll looked at me and noticed what was really going on, he changed his tune and couldn't beat a retreat fast enough.

I have no doubt that my little 410 could have shredded his face had the situation turned ugly.

[Mik]

I think that for a Non-Shooter, that they should be talked into becoming a new shooter.
For a new shooter, it looks like the main question is a long gun or handgun.
For a new Shooter, my preference would be a double action revolver. You pull the trigger and it goes bang!
One of the more versitile calibers on the market is the 357mag. The shooter has 3 factory choices for power level, 38 spl, 38+P, and 357mag. If you wanted to go bigger, an argument for the 44spl could be made, or for the 45Colt and or 410. The 41 mag might make the list also, but seems to have very few options for a self defence role. Taurus used to make a nice little 5 shot revolver in 45acp. If one could be found, it should make a nice self defence piece.

For a long gun, Rifle or Shotgun? If I needed a long gun to protect myself at close range it would be a shotgun. I'd prefer a 12ga, but the new shooter may get along with a 20ga better. Load it with bird shot and help them get proficient at shredding close range targets.
A strong case for a rifle could be made also. I would think that it should be light and quick, easy operate and of relitivly low power as far as rifle rounds go, ie 30 carbine, 30-30, 7.62x39, 223...
If we move the shooter up to a rifle, then more training and familiarity will definatly be needed.

I personally have only needed a firearm once to defuse a situation. I was in the Navy going to a school in SanDiego. After class one night some friends and I went off base for some non-navy food. On our way back, we strayed into a dimly lit parking lot and the resident troll was quick to come out and tell us that we were tresspassing and owed him for it. He started getting in my friends face demanding payment, I slipped my hand into my fanny pack and pulled a FMJ 45/410 derringer loaded with 2 1/2" 410 no.4s. I cocked it and held it alongside my leg, then started staring him down. When the Troll looked at me and noticed what was really going on, he changed his tune and couldn't beat a retreat fast enough.

I have no doubt that my little 410 could have shredded his face had the situation turned ugly.

Terrible example, someone hassles you for trespassing so you pull a gun on him? Poor judgment on your part. If he started a fist fight with you and your navy buddies, would you have shot him?

If the answer is no, keep that thing in your pocket.

[rhead]

Am I paranoid??
Well I hope that that is all it is. As long as the problem is paranoia I will not have to find out if i was paranoid enough.

[imashooter2]

Terrible example, someone hassles you for trespassing so you pull a gun on him? Poor judgment on your part. If he started a fist fight with you and your navy buddies, would you have shot him?

If the answer is no, keep that thing in your pocket.

Sounded to me like he was using euphemisms for a strong arm robbery attempt, not a legitimate land owner asking trespassers to leave.

[Mik]

Sounded to me like he was using euphemisms for a strong arm robbery attempt, not a legitimate land owner asking trespassers to leave.

I could be wrong. It just doesn't sound like an appropriate situation to pull a gun to me. Was there really any chance this one guy was going to strong arm a group of sailors?

[Texantothecore]

I would like to add this small bit:

There is absolutely no know way to predict whether a person will be a non shooter or avid shooter.

When I first handled a black powder gun I was a non shooter. After the first shot I was a confirmed shooter but had no idea that would happen.

That has been my experience with others too.

So advise and teach him as if he was a highly motivated future shooter and you might be shocked.

[Texantothecore]

If I were going to give someone a real tour of the pistol I would put together "The Compleat Revolver" kit. It would consist of the following:

18 rounds full power ball
6 rounds black powder
6 rounds single roundball
6 rounds multiple roundball
6 rounds snake load
6 rounds wax boolits
6 rounds gloolits
6 rounds bug loads

The original motivation might be self defense but pistols can be a lot of fun.

[tazman]

I would like to add this small bit:

There is absolutely no know way to predict whether a person will be a non shooter or avid shooter.

When I first handled a black powder gun I was a non shooter. After the first shot I was a confirmed shooter but had no idea that would happen.

That has been my experience with others too.

So advise and teach him as if he was a highly motivated future shooter and you might be shocked.

I like that idea.

[owejia]

The thing about a handgun for home defense, it is easier to hold that handgun in my right hand next to my leg as I open the door at 3 oclock in the morning than trying to handle a shotgun. And yes we live in the country and we do answer knocks on our door at 3 in the morning. Handgun will be a 1917 s&w 45acp, or a 38 spl or 357 mag. Have one of each next to my bed.

[tazman]

The thing about a handgun for home defense, it is easier to hold that handgun in my right hand next to my leg as I open the door at 3 oclock in the morning than trying to handle a shotgun. And yes we live in the country and we do answer knocks on our door at 3 in the morning. Handgun will be a 1917 s&w 45acp, or a 38 spl or 357 mag. Have one of each next to my bed.
Under those circumstances a handgun is a necessity. I don't live in the country but I don't open the door at that time of the night/morning without protection of some kind either.

[Texantothecore]

Another technique you can use to introduce someone to pistols is to use targets that explode or which make a sound when hit.

Clay birds,
Soda cans,
A bell or gong that will sound when hit.
A milk jug filled water is good, real good.

These are a lot more fun than punching paper.

[showmad]

Just to throw my 2 cents in for a 1 an only home protection firearm I would recommend 38 spl revolver 4" barrel and still get a 12ga pump shotgun for backup.

[bobthenailer]

A good 38/357 mag DA revolver with at least a 4" barrel

[FergusonTO35]

I put some rounds down range with my Kel Tec PF9 last weekend and thought about this conversation. I think that it's always a smart choice to select a gun and ammo that you can put rounds into the target with speed and accuracy. I tried my pistol with the Lee 356-122-TC and the 356-95-RF both at ~950 fps. I can carefully aim and hit the mark with either. However the heavier boolit load slows down follow up shots significantly because the pistol shifts position in my hand slightly with each shot. It just makes sense to me to carry the ammo that will allow me a better chance of making each shot count, rather than hoping that the first shot does the job.

[garym1a2]

For a beginer you cannot beat a Glock 17/19. For those with more skill you cannot beat the Glock 20/21/22/23/34/35/41,.......

[GhostHawk]

In my opinion a pistol is just to get you to where you have your shotgun stored.

With birdshot loads the chance of having a round go through a wall, or 2, or 3 and kill someone unintended in the next room is pretty much non existent.

Yet they deliver a devastating knock down punch at any range out to 50 yards.

Pistols have their place, as do rifles, but for home defense spend your money on a good shotgun and sleep sound.

[Mik]

In my opinion a pistol is just to get you to where you have your shotgun stored.

With birdshot loads the chance of having a round go through a wall, or 2, or 3 and kill someone unintended in the next room is pretty much non existent.

Yet they deliver a devastating knock down punch at any range out to 50 yards.

Pistols have their place, as do rifles, but for home defense spend your money on a good shotgun and sleep sound.

GhostHawk, I hope you don't have a self defense weapon loaded with birdshot. Any projectile that will penetrate flesh and bone reliably will go through multiple internal walls. It's physics, you can't get something for nothing.

Birdshot is "painful" at 50 yards, not devastating.

[LtFrankDrebbin]

Long thread, guilty for not reading all of it in detail.
My first opinion was revolver .38spec.
But wouldn't hits with a .22 have more stopping power than miss's with a .45?

Anyway I can have no opinion to this topic, having a weapon on hand round here for "self defense" will put your self in gaol.
When I traveled around the country solo I kept a dry chemical fire extinguisher right beside the seat. Figured it would not be classed as a weapon by the law and a face full of the stuff would change an attackers mind long enough for me to give it gas. Not that the Kingswood could allow a fast get away.

[Mik]

I've talked to a few guys who have "been there" and they all said If they had to do it again, they would do everything they could to maximize their chances of scoring a good hit. To them, this means carrying more ammunition.

I've heard people say "if I can't get it done with 8 rounds of .45 acp, I (insert cliche) 'am screwed anyway', 'need a rifle', 'shouldn't be carrying a gun'"

That's BS, you know what's worse than 8 .45 projectiles poking holes in your chest? I'll tell you - 18 .357 projectiles doing the same thing. That's over 100 percent more chances of scoring a good hit on a vital part of the body.

I, again, would recommend a 9mm semi auto from a good company.

[TheDoctor]

I can tell you the best gun for ME. I can not tell you the best for someone else. Living on a ranch will have will have different requirements for a shooter than living in a downtown apartment complex. For a NON shooter, it is a whole different animal. Do they have ANY kind of training? Are they WILLING to use potentially deadly force to protect themselves and their family? If they have no training, get them trained. If they are not willing to use force, and at least become basically proficient, then a firearm might not be the best answer. IF, a firearm would be something they need, what they will be comfortable with is more important than what type, caliber, action, etc. I personally do not recommend any type of auto to anyone not willing to take the time to learn how to shoot it, and practice enough that a failure can be corrected without having to stop and think about what to do. I also do NOT advocate having bird shot in a home defense shotgun. Bird shot is for birds. There was a debate over the difference between a 125 and 147 grain bullet in a 9mm, and penetration. A typical shot load of one ounce will have about 350 pellets of 7 1/2 shot. A 00 buckshot load will have 8-9 pellets per one ounce shot load. Now, 350 pellets might sound like a lot, but each pellet ONLY WEIGHS 1.25 GRAINS! Compared to the 00 buck of 8-9 pellets, each weighing 53.8 grains. Which pellets will penetrate deeper? I know, some that have not tested it for themselves, or have actually seen the difference between them on humans that have been shot, will claim that the birdshot pellets that hit first make a path for the rest of them. Believe that if you want, you are only betting your and someone elses lives on that "fact". I am well aware that not everyone will agree with me, if your experiences or opinions differ, well, isn't that what the original question was kind of asking for?

[TCLouis]

Gun/cartridge for the nonhunter/nonshooter?

NONE

UNLESS they are willing to become a shooter so they will learn SAFETY FIRST and shooting to a point second.

[Gunslinger1911]

Ding, ding, ding. Correct answer !


If someone is a non-shooter and unlikely/unwilling to learn how to shoot competently, their best gun for home defense is one wielded by somebody else! A firearm is a tool like any other, and for someone thinking its mere possession will provide a magic talisman of protection, the possibility of disaster is too high. First, plan some range time and training, then pick the firearm that they can show basic proficiency with. Otherwise, they are depending on the false premise that having the gun will somehow preclude having to use it... a fallacious belief at best. JMHO, but I would be curious to hear any valid rebuttal.

Froggie

PS Yes, I am a crotchety old guy, but I'm also 50 years a gun owner, have been a firearms instructor through the NRA and BSA, and have worked a little security and am a life member of NRA. Don't dismiss the foregoing as anti-gun... to the contrary it is pro-proper use of guns; but it is anti-fantasy and anti-self delusion.

[Mik]

I couldn't agree more. Get training, at least safety training. Without it, the chances of unintentional injury are greater than the chances the gun will ever be used in a dense situation.

Its been said before, a good dog will get you 90% of the way there for half the price. Its worth considering if the person isn't committed to learning safe and effective use of a firearm.

[nola jack]

Glock 17 with some training. It is more simple than pretty much anything, has better ballistics than 38, carries more rounds, easily accepts a light, easy to reload, no toggles, paddles, decockers, etc. IF they're okay with it, I'd advise a rifle above this, but not many non-gun people are okay with the scary black guns.

[Texantothecore]

The reason I counseled you to recommend a .38 special is that it has fairly soft recoil and is generally regarded as being fun to shoot. The ammo is quite a bit cheaper than other calibers too.

If your student wants to go shooting again a day or so after the initial instruction he has the right pistol.

If they take to it they will finish with a different pistol to accomodate their new needs which develop as their skills develop.

[WallyM3]

Four inch S&W Model 10.

Easier to conceal from those not intended to use it.

[DeanWinchester]

As has been said already, if they're aren't going to shoot it, they shouldn't buy it. PERIOD. I wouldn't recommend or even talk to a person who isn't willing to practice and be taught by a competent teacher, how to use the thing. Owning a firearm and not shooting, practicing & training with it is unacceptable foolishness. I suppose the term "collector" could excuse some......but not really.

[Silverboolit]

A 90 pound German Shepherd will offer a real deterrent. It is noisy, large, and has a reputation. I think that a home invader would not even get into your house with the noise that a dog would make. It is also an early warning alarm and allows you to get prepared for what may or not happen next.

[doc1876]

what a nice war you have here. I am totally have to agree with froggie and silverboolit. get a dog, and if you "need" a gun, train and keep training. A gun is as useless as a non fed dog if it is not practiced with. I live in a bad neighborhood, and my dog has been a great warning system, so a gun is in the hand in time, however, I practice with them regularly. If these people are not going to do this, they need a dog and pepper spray or a fire extinguisher, a REAL dog.

[Bonz]

Smith & Wesson Governor 45 Colt/45 ACP/410 Shotshell Six-Shot Revolver