FA 454 Leading problem

[Mark]

I am having a problem with my FA Model 83 454 leading in the cylinder right before the throat. This happens with all levels of lead loads. I have tried different hardness boolits with no change. What gets me is it happens in the cylinder and with light loads. When we talk of leading, we are talking about not being able to shoot 50 rounds through the gun before there is so much build up, chambering becomes an issue. That is less than 10 rounds per chamber! I have resorted to sizing boolits to .451 (acutual diameter) as opposed to .452 which has helped some but accuracy suffers. Cleaning the lead is a small feat of endurance. I end up soaking the cylinder in a 50/50 mix of peroxide and vinager. Then brush out the remainder. Can anyone give me some advice to help the situation? Am I asking too much from this gun?
Thanks,
Mark

[454PB]

Are you using plain base boolits?

When you say "right before the throat", are you saying at the case crimp?

Has your FA been fired with .45 Colt cases?

[Lloyd Smale]

have you checked the throat size? sounds like they may be a tad tight.

[44man]

I think Lloyd has it nailed.

[Mark]

Are you using plain base boolits?
Tried bb, flat base, and gas check. No difference.

When you say "right before the throat", are you saying at the case crimp?
Sort of. The leading goes from the back of the throat past the crimp, into the case area where it's build up makes chambering difficult.

Has your FA been fired with .45 Colt cases?
Never.

My measurement says .451. I don't have pin guages. I use a telescoping guages (I think that is what they are called) and a caliper. Would this cause a problem? I have never slugged the barrel. If so, it this a FA only fix?
Thanks,
Mark J

[44man]

Sounds like you have a size die in front of the chambers. The throats should be reamed. If your bore is .452, the throats should be .4525 to .453. Call Freedom.

[454PB]

You really should slug the throats before sending it away. My FA has very tight throats, a .452 slug fits, but snuggly. I have not experienced what you describe.

If it turns out to be tight throats, maybe FA will just let you send the cylinder. Is it a Premier grade?

[Mark]

It is not a Premier grade. I will call them for some help and let you guys know what they say.
Thanks
Mark J

[cbrick]

Before you send it off to FA or have the throats reamed answer this; are you using a bullet that is short enough when crimped in the crimp groove and chambered that the front driving band does not reach the throat?

Next question, are you using a two diameter bullet?

The only time I have ever been able to cause leading in my FA's chamber's/throats is when I used a SAECO two diameter bullet. The front driving band is .005" smaller than bullet diameter and the cartridge lays at angle in the chamber, even the FA tight chambers. When fired the middle driving band hits the edge of the throat and shears lead.

Either of these two things will cause leading exactly as you describe. In the first case simply use a longer bullet that when chambered the entire front driving band is inside the throat. In the second case, don't use a two diameter bullet in a revolver. They may be well suited to rifles and single action closed breach firearms but I couldn't get them to work in a revolver. Leaded the cylinder like crazy and accuracy was bad enough to be ugly.

Let us know what you discover, curious minds want to know.

Rick

EDIT:

To illistrate the SAECO bullet (#399) I was refering to is on the left. On the right is the RCBS 180 Silhouette bullet. They both weigh within a couple of grains of each other at 186 gr. With exactly the same loads the RCBS shoots very impressive groups and the SAECO won't even hit the target. Both of these bullets are sized .357" and are the same alloy but look at the front driving band of the SAECO.

http://www.lasc.us/SAECO399RCBS180gr-11.JPG

[454PB]

That's why I asked about firing .45 Colt in the .454, it produces the same problem with the boolit not entering the throat when chambered.

[cbrick]

That's why I asked about firing .45 Colt in the .454, it produces the same problem with the boolit not entering the throat when chambered.


Yes it does, I was pointing out that from my own experience its not the only thing that has the same effect. :-D

Rick

[Bass Ackward]

Boy this is good to watch out for, but it must be age specific or something.

I finally found a 1997 in 357 Mag made in 1998 that still had good cast dimensions. This thing was basically unfired. My throats are .3585 and the bore "was" .357 with a .0005 constriction under the threads.

After removing the constriction, it took to shooting the Lee 158 RF like a house of fire. And that bullet has a reduced front diameter band. At least that is how my molds are. :grin: So I designed a 180 grain bullet exactly the same way and put a GC on it to run it up. Wide open I get no leading what so ever. But I haven't shot any 38s in it either.

I did look into the chambers and my throat entrances are tapered just as most other guns are. And with a scope, you can see spiral tool marks that haven't shot out yet. This is no different from any other though and part of the process, so I would expect it to be OK. And it is.

Are the 454s different?

[454PB]

All I can say is that there is no evidence of any taper in the throats of my FA. The thing is the tightest tolerance handgun I own or have owned. I learned early on that any boolit over .452" won't even chamber. My Ruger SRH is the same way, my Taurus RB will accept .453", but you really have to push them into the chambers.

[Mark]

After reading your post to make sure I fully understood it, I can answer. No to the 2 diameter boolit. As for the length of the boolit, if you are saying that the bullet needs to be short and not touch the throat (That is what I am reading-correct me if I am wrong), yes on two of the 3 boolits that I shoot. One boolit is the H&G 68 @ 900fps. The other is a 255 grain cowboy design purchased from Penn boolits. The third design I can't be certain that the a driving band does not touch the throat. I will check that out in the morning. thanks again for the help,
Mark

[cbrick]

Mark, no, you WANT the front driving band INSIDE the throat when chambered. If its not in the throat when fired once it gets there the edge of the driving band finds the edge of the throat and shaves lead while being forced over the edge and into the throat. Its far better for you to put the driving band in the throat than have it look for it and not find it while centered.

Rick

[Mark]

Rick,
I now understand what you are trying to tell me. It makes sense. Of course, now I have another question (or two). How come this is the only gun that I have that does this? Is the FA chamber different in some way?
Thanks for your help,
Mark J

[2 dogs]

Mark, I have 2 FA's 454's and dont have any leading issues with them. But my 3rd is a FA97 in 44 special. That little gun would lead to the point I could plant corn in that barrel. I have slugged my guns and if I remember correctly the gun had .4305 throats. It simply would NOT shoot a .430 bullet. On a whim, I tried a .4308 bullet and VIOLA! Now, that is not supposed to work as my bullet is bigger than my throats by .0003 but it does.....

You need to slow down a bit and go get you some fishing weights and spend some time slugging your gun. See if you can get a micrometer NOT a dial caliper so you can measure as accurately as possible. In my gut, I feel FA's are mostly set up for jacketed bullets so your barrel may be a bit bigger than your cylinder throat.....just my 2 cents tho...good luck and keep us advised. My email is fcgarza0640@hotmail.com if I can help you at all.

[cbrick]

2 dogs, re-read Mark's original post. He didn't mention barrel leading, his problem is in the cylinder at the throat junction. If the problem were caused by the barrel (groove diameter) being larger than the throats the leading would be in the bore beginning on the trailing edge of the rifling near the forcing cone and continuing on down the bore. Slugging the throats and the bore is certainly sound advice. The bullet should be a mild snug fit in the throats and ONLY if the groove diameter is larger than the throats should the throats be reamed.


How come this is the only gun that I have that does this? Is the FA chamber different in some way? Thanks for your help, Mark J

Just a SWAG but probably because the FA chamber dimensions are tight enough to hold the cartridge in place, if the front driving band isn't in the throat the bullet travels in the direction the case holds it and if that's not perfectly aligned with the throat it hits the edge and shaves lead. Even something like the brass thickness being a bit uneven would hold the bullet off center line of the throat.

From an accuracy perspective all this is a good thing as long as you fit the front driving band to a mild snug fit in the throats. By doing this you have as good alignment with the throat/bore as its possible to get with your revolver.

Rick

[Bass Ackward]

Just a SWAG but probably because the FA chamber dimensions are tight enough to hold the cartridge in place, if the front driving band isn't in the throat the bullet travels in the direction the case holds it and if that's not perfectly aligned with the throat it hits the edge and shaves lead. Even something like the brass thickness being a bit uneven would hold the bullet off center line of the throat.

From an accuracy perspective all this is a good thing as long as you fit the front driving band to a mild snug fit in the throats. By doing this you have as good alignment with the throat/bore as its possible to get with your revolver.

Rick


Rick,

OK. I can buy the shaving lead as you see it with an alignment issue. If it is alignment leading, then the leading should begin and remain where gravity pulls the round down in the chamber. If the buildup is 360 degrees, then it could be from the body / base of the bullet too.

When that powder goes off and that bullet swells it base swells out first and then as the base tries to pass the nose, the body swells out also with that brass. If that bullet isn't hard enough for the pressure, you are going to be to what ever diameter that chamber dimension is too minus the case thickness. And that diameter is going to be larger than that throat, else you couldn't chamber your round.

So .... if you truly have a sharp, 90 degree angle, then you will shave lead 360 degrees from the base too regardless of how good your centering was.

That's why there just has to be a little taper of some sort at the end of the case up to the throat to guide that base back down to throat diameter.

[cbrick]

Well, at this point we don't know if mark is using a gas check bullet or what the alloy or BHN is. I got pretty severe cylinder leading when testing the SAECO #399 two diameter bullet. That bullet was HT 18 BHN exactly the same as the other 180 gr bullet that had zero leading. The only difference was the fit in the throats. I would think that as you describe the SAECO leading would have been at the bottom of the chamber but it wasn't, it was 360.

I've never been able to detect any taper in any of my FA's including the one that I cerrosafe chamber cast all 5 chambers & throats.

Rick

[Mark]

I am going to do some barrel and cylinder throat slugging. I will report back with those results. The leading is pretty much a 360 degree thing on every cylinder. I don't have a hardness tester but it leads with WW cast boolits (with and without a gas check) and commercial cast bullets.
Thanks,
Mark