Bullseye in 44 Special

[Petrol & Powder]

With the current powder situation, I'm looking for ways to use what I have. So, to that end, I'm trying to duplicate the Skeeter .44 Special load of 7.5grs of Unique and a 250gr SWC.

I'm using a 44 Magnum revolver so I'm not too concerned about 44 Special loads that are a little warm. There's a comfortable margin of safety there unless I start to exceed 44 Mag pressures. (which I have no need or desire to do)

Most of my manuals show charge weights around 5.0grs of Bullseye with a 240-250 LSWC in a 44 Special case. The magnum load for that same combination is around 6.0grs of BE. Both of those loads seem a little slow to me?

FWIW my sized & lubed bullets are weighing in at about 261 grains.

Any input would be welcomed.

[lotech]

I've had good luck with 5.5 grs. Bullseye and Lyman #429421 ( about 250 - 255 grs.); muzzle velocity = 860 from 6 1/2" S&W.

[Petrol & Powder]

So out of a 4" tube do you think there would be anything to gain by bumping to up to 5.6 - 5.7 grs. and try to get it up around 900 fps?

[Dan Cash]

So out of a 4" tube do you think there would be anything to gain by bumping to up to 5.6 - 5.7 grs. and try to get it up around 900 fps?

I would be careful. Bullseye can get too hot pretty quick; there is not a lot of transition between enough and too much.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not too worried about anything less than 6.0 grs of Bullseye in a revolver chambered for a magnum. I think I'm still far below max. for that gun, even with Special cases. But I would like to keep it under 1000fps and 950 would be even better.

[bedbugbilly]

Like any load you're working up . . . start low and work from there to see what works best.

[Petrol & Powder]

I was hoping that someone had already done the work for me :wink:

[Petrol & Powder]

So here's an unknown source that claims a 4" barrel and MAGNUM brass not Special

6 grains Bullseye, 250 Keith
Hi-976
Lo-938
Avg-952
SD-12

6.5 grains Bullseye, 250 Keith
Hi-1014
Lo-989
Avg-1004
SD-9

Do those numbers look right?

[lotech]

Regarding a heavier Bullseye load than the one I cited... I don't know. I probably stopped at 5.5 grs. because the load shot well in my gun and recoil was tolerable.

[Petrol & Powder]

Regarding a heavier Bullseye load than the one I cited... I don't know. I probably stopped at 5.5 grs. because the load shot well in my gun and recoil was tolerable.
Was that with Special or magnum brass?
Seems pretty close to what I'm looking for.

[lotech]

Special brass.

[Petrol & Powder]

That's making 5.7grs in Special case look like a good possibility.

[bedbugbilly]

Petrol & Powder - I hope my previous post didn't appear to be "short" or "curt" as I didn't intend it that way. I agree with Dan Cash on his remark about BE . . .

I don't load 44 spl but I do load 38 spl and use BE - which I like very much. I cast 4 different bullets for my cartridges - and shoot them in 7 different 38s (two are 357s but I don't load 357 as I love the 38 spl) I use BE and I have looked at data for the 38 spl in a variety of manuals of various ages. I am amazed at the variations I have found . . . and have to believe it would be the same in regards to the 44 spl. as well.

I don't load for "hot" but rather accuracy. I have barrel lengths of from 2" up through 6" - and each handgun is different as far as what it likes for a BE load in conjunction to the bullet design/wt.

Thus my remark about "starting low and work up" . . . especially with BE. I know you are trying to duplicate another load but I still think it's going to be based on "your gun" and what it likes as far as accuracy. I think you are going to have to do some experimenting with the BE . . . i.e. doing what would normally be done as far as "start low and work up" until you get the right combination in your individual pistol to match the performance you are getting with the unique load in your individual pistol.

That's IMHO and I may be "all wet". If I am, hit me with a wet noodle but not too hard as I bruise easily! LOL Let us know what you come up with as I think it will be interesting. I'm looking at possibly going with a 44 spl. . . . still wavering between that caliber and 44/40 and 45 Colt. Good luck to you! :-)

[Petrol & Powder]

I did not take your reply as being short or curt and, in fact, considered it to be sound advice.
BE is not my first choice for 44 Special but I'm trying to make do with what I have. I will not pay $70-$90 for a pound of unique or 231. I agree that BE is a fast powder and linear increases in charge weight don't necessarily equate to linear increases in pressure.
I too load for accuracy and see no reason to abuse guns just because it's possible. I have found in my short casting career that a little pressure can be a good thing, to a point. However I prefer to get by with as little as needed to get good accuracy. I will say that the current crop of manuals are far more conservative than the older ones.
I shoot far more 38 Special and I prefer WW231 in that cartridge but 231 has become rare these days. The spread in recommended charge weights is pretty extreme and seems to be very pronounced with the Bullseye loads.
I think I'm going to try 5.7 -5.8 grs of BE behind my RCBS 250 SWC in a 44 Special case. I don't think that will push me anywhere close to 44 Magnum territory.

[fecmech]

I agree that BE is a fast powder and linear increases in charge weight don't necessarily equate to linear increases in pressure.
Despite all the urban legend surrounding Bullseye powder, it's pressure rise (at least in the .38/.357) is very predictable and proportional to charge weight, according to HP White labs. Here is a chart from an article on .38 spl loads and overloads from the American Rifleman. Obviously being a fast powder it has more energy per grain than say 2400 and will create more pressure per grain but it's not going to spike on you when you add another couple tenths or so.

[rintinglen]

Somewhere between 5.0 and 5.7 grains will give you the 900+ FPS with the 429-421 in a 44 Special case, that Skeeter got with his 7.5 Unique load in his justly famous special load. If you don't have a chronograph, but do have a a bit of Unique, sight your gun in with the Skeeter load, and then work up to the load that hits to the same point of aim. Given that you are using a 44 Mag , you will be safe, provided you keep a sharp eye out for double charges.

That's the only draw back that I can see to Bullseye in big cases, the small volume makes it easy to overload without it being obvious.

[Petrol & Powder]

Thank You fecmech & rintinglen. Good information.
fecmech, concerning pressure, we might be saying the same thing from a different perspective. When I said increased charge weights didn't result in linear increases, I was speaking about the fallacy of attempting to predict pressure increase based solely on increased charge weight. For example, and I'm just making these numbers up, you can't predict a constant 1000 psi increase for every .1 grain of added powder. It just doesn't follow a simple linear plot and your excellent chart shows that exponential increase. You are correct that there is no "spike".
My use of the term linear was probably incorrect in that context.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, so here's an update and a new question.
5.7grs. of Bullseye in a 44 Special case behind a 250gr Keith style bullet (that's actually closer to 259grs) works fairly well out a 4" S&W 629. No chronograph but it's way below magnum levels and shoots better than the low end 44 Special loads.

I'm still struggling with the decision between using 44 Special brass or 44 magnum brass. I'm considering a load of 6.0 - 6.5grains of Bullseye in a magnum case with the same bullet. I would use Unique if I had any.....
I like the idea of the 44 Special brass because it uses less powder to get the same level of performance. The magnum brass is an attractive option because it could never be chambered in a 44 Special gun by accident and it fits the longer chamber of my 629. However the 44 mag brass requires more powder to get to the same 900-1000 fps that I'm aiming for with that Keith bullet.

I'd really like to make my logistics simpler and have just one type of casing and one load. Basically a 44 magnum cartridge with a 250+ Keith style bullet that duplicates the Skeeter 7.5 Unique 44 Special performance. 900-1000 fps is all I need.

[Minerat]

When I use 44 spcl brass I use it to remind me that I am using a lighter load no matter the powder charge. This way I can't put a mag load into a 44 spcl gun. Since I load the special brass with nothing hotter then +p I'm pretty safe in knowing when I am shooting 44 spcl brass that it is safe in the mag or a special. Case capacity might have something to do with the pressure since the power will stay close to the primer but with the low volumes of powder from the faster powders this makes little difference. I have never used Bullseye but have used HS6, Unique and SR4756 all with loads between 6.0 & 7.0 gr. with good results. Unfortunately I have not cronoed any of these.

[TCLouis]

Petrol & Powder

IF you utilize Mag brass it sets the boolit out there where the cylinders throat is located.
Also saves the hassle of resetting the dies between the two calibers.

[Airman Basic]

Also saves the hassle of resetting the dies between the two calibers.
These work well
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/189290/redding-die-spacer-kit

[Petrol & Powder]

When I use 44 spcl brass I use it to remind me that I am using a lighter load no matter the powder charge. This way I can't put a mag load into a 44 spcl gun. Since I load the special brass with nothing hotter then +p I'm pretty safe in knowing when I am shooting 44 spcl brass that it is safe in the mag or a special. ............

That thought process did go into my original plan and that was one of the reasons I opted to use 44 Special brass. However I don't have a gun chambered in 44 Special so there's little concern unless someone else gets some of my rounds and even if that happens, I think they're safe in most 44 Specials. I don't have much need or desire for 44 magnum cartridges so I'll probably just keep a box or two of factory semi-jacketed 44 magnum HP's on hand and confine all of my reloading to just 1 cast bullet load. That should make the identification of that load easy. As to your logic, I totally agree with your thinking.

[Petrol & Powder]

Petrol & Powder

IF you utilize Mag brass it sets the boolit out there where the cylinders throat is located.
Also saves the hassle of resetting the dies between the two calibers.

10-4 on magnum brass placing the bullet at the beginning of the throat. I like the idea of all of my 44 brass being the same length. Just makes it easier at the loading bench and the range.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm currently loading all of my 44 caliber rounds on a single stage press just because I don't want the hassle of re-configuring the priming system on my Dillon 550. The vast majority of my handgun reloading involves small pistol primers and it's not difficult to change between calibers as long as you don't need to change primer sizes.
When I load 45 ACP, I reconfigure the Dillon for large primers and load a huge batch. When I'm done with the 45 ACP run, I switch the press back to small pistol primers and leave it that way. Now with the addition of a 44 Magnum I may buy another Dillon 550 and set one up for small primers and the other for large primers. It would be really nice if I didn't have to worry about 44 Special & 44 magnum on the same tool head.

[azrednek]

For what it is worth. I run 4.0 and 4.5 Bullseye in my Charter Arms Bulldog using any one of three 44 cal molds I have. Recoil is pleasant. The rare times I do carry it, it is loaded with factory Silvertips.

[telebasher]

My copy of Lymans 4th cast boolit manual shows 4.8 Bullseye as a max load with 429421 boolit. Start low and carefully work up.

[Petrol & Powder]

4.8 grs. Bullseye. Is that a 44 Special load or a 44 magnum load?

[HamGunner]

The Speer #8 manual is now considered by many to be slightly stretching the limits on pressure on many of it's max. loads and it only lists 4.5gr. Bullseye to be max. in a .44 special case with the 250gr. cast semi-wadcutter and only 5.5gr. max. when using the .44 mag. case. I would urge caution and work the load up of course.

Myself, I acquired several hundred .44 Special cases back in the early 70's when I got my old flattop Blackhawk in .44 Mag. Since I had not yet gotten a very large collection of magnum cases at that time I did a bit of shooting in the .44 mag. using the .44 special cases. My favorite load in the .44 special case was 16.0 gr. 2400 and the 250 gr. Lyman 429421. It was extremely accurate and probably running along close to 1,000 fps. out of my 6 1/2" flattop. I did not have a chronograph back then of course. But, I did have a good set of eyes and the flattop's micro sights. That load of 2400 would peg soda cans easily at 100 yards off the bench using sandbags.

Edit: With the slower special load and a bit higher barrel rise, I could use the same sight setting at 100 yards with the .44 special load that I used for my magnum loads for 25 yards. I did have to aim at the top of the soda cans, but the bullet dropped down just right at the 100 yard distance. That load amazed a lot of bystanding shooters at the range. I just wish I could see that well and even that far now days.

[Petrol & Powder]

So to be clear - 5.7 grs of Bullseye behind a 250 grain lead bullet in a 44 Special case gives me about what I'm looking for and I'm shooting that load in a Magnum revolver. Basically a duplicate of 7.5 grains of Unique in a 44 Special case.
I'm seeking an equivalent load using Magnum cases, the same bullet and Bullseye powder.

[azrednek]

So to be clear - 5.7 grs of Bullseye behind a 250 grain lead bullet in a 44 Special case gives me about what I'm looking for and I'm shooting that load in a Magnum revolver. Basically a duplicate of 7.5 grains of Unique in a 44 Special case.
I'm seeking an equivalent load using Magnum cases, the same bullet and Bullseye powder.

This is from an older Hercules manual.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/allant-44-2.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/dnisbet/media/allant-44-2.jpg.html)

[Petrol & Powder]

From the looks of that, I'm significantly below max. Thanks.

[azrednek]

From the looks of that, I'm significantly below max. Thanks.

Years ago, more than I want to think about. I tried the mag load using the recommended load of Bullseye in 44 Mag. Best I recall there were no signs of over pressure but accuracy was terrible. I was going through the learning curve long before there was an internet. There may have been other reasons for the dismal accuracy.

[Petrol & Powder]

Yep, I don't think Bullseye is the powder of choice for upper end 44 mag loads. 2400 and H110 are clearly better choices at those pressures. I'm looking for something in the 900-1000 fps range and I don't have a lot of options when it comes to powder. Bullseye is just one I have on hand. I've loaded H110 in 44 Special cases and it can work fairly well but it doesn't burn clean until you get closer to the max loads.
I totally agree with the wisdom of Elmer Keith, 1200fps is all you ever need in the 44. Skeeter's 900-1000 fps 44 Special loads are all you need 90% of the time and are probably what the 44 Special should have been if the early guns had all been stronger.

I know the history of the 44 magnum and I'm glad that guns strong enough to handle those pressures were made. However, a warm 44 Special "like" load is about all I want.

azrednek - I agree that the max loads listed in that chart would probably be a bit suspect these days but at least they show that upper limit. I think the current crop of loading manuals have been castrated by the product liability lawyers. The ideal data is probably somewhere in the middle of those two extremes. Thanks for sharing that.

[True.grit]

A hotter load will decrease case life. The load data has a COL for 44mag. I my self would not use 5.7 gr in a 44 special case if I did not have the data to back it up. The gun will probably take it, but the decrease in case life would be a deal breaker for me. In cartridge overall length(COL), a little goes a long way.

[Petrol & Powder]

10-4 on overall length affecting operating pressure and therefore, case life. There's no doubt that higher pressures will shorten case life but the standard pressure 44 Special loads listed in most manuals are way below what the casing and modern guns can safely handle.
5.7 gr of Bullseye in a 44 Special case, behind a 250+/- LSWC bullet is well within the safe limits when fired in an appropriate gun (i.e. 44 magnum) .

The vast majority of case failures in straight walled revolver casings occur as splits at the case mouth. That failure can occur more frequently when those cases are operated at high pressures but the real culprit is the repeated reloading cycles of the casing.
Each time you resize, crimp and fire the cartridge; you work harden the brass at the mouth of the case. Even at moderate pressures the case mouth will work harden at a far accelerated rate when compared to the case body. Annealing the brass at the case mouth helps but there is a finite life to any cartridge casing.

I'm not worried about a warm 5.7 gr Bullseye load stressing my 44 Special casings any faster than 6.0 - 6.5 grains of BE in a 44 magnum casing with the same bullet.

What I'm seeking is a 44 magnum casing with enough Bullseye in that larger space to make the same pressure as 5.7grs of BE in a 44 Special casing.

[bobthenailer]

Try 5.0 to 7.0 gr grs of Bullseye or Tightgroup powder ! thats what ive been using for 30 years.

[ubetcha]

Somewhere, someplace I had read that a 4" bbl will give higher velocity than a 6" bbl. I will have to see if I can find that statement somewhere

[True.grit]

Ok I understand now what you are trying to do. I have used load data for 44sp and put in a 44mag case. I think that 5.7 gr BE would be a safe load. I would try it without question. I am going to try 6gr BE behind a 300gr boolit. Should be pleasant to shoot. Recently I have been loading AA#2(9gr) behind a 300 gr .432 diam boolit. My 44's like oversized boolits.

[Petrol & Powder]

Here's the latest - 5.7 grains of Bullseye behind a 250+/- Keith SWC in a 44 Special case works pretty well. Accurate, not too hard on me or the gun and no leading. I think that's close to Skeeter's load of 7.5 grs. of Unique, and if anything, may be a little slower.
My attempt to duplicate that load with 44 magnum brass involved the same bullet and 6.3 grains of Bullseye. That load shoots to the same P.O.I. Using my very un-scientific method of gauging recoil & report, it feels just a little hotter than the 44 Special load, even with the greater case capacity of the magnum brass.
So, I think I'm close but I'm going to back down the charge to around 6.0 grains of B.E. and see if that works.

Thanks for all of the input. Keep it coming.

[35 Whelen]

Shortly after I began acquiring .44 Specials a coup[le of years ago, I tried a little B'Eye. As I recall without trudging out to the shop to look at my records, 5.5 grs. of B'Eye would run a 255-260 gr. SWC about 850 fps out of my 5 1/2" NM Blackhawk, a little less out of my 4 3/4" Uberti.

Handloader #237 shows a Lyman 429421 Keith (250 grs) with 6.5 grs Alliant Bullseye for 971 fps out of a 7 1/2" Super Blackhawk. That's pretty darn close to the Skeeter load and a tad faster than the load I used to kill three deer last season. The same issue shows the same load only fired out of a 4" S&W 629 running 886 fps. Yet another (Issue #241) shows the same load out of a 6 1/2" S&W running 895 fps.

35W

[Petrol & Powder]

35 Whelen - Thank you, that is exactly the info I'm looking for.
My 5.7 gr of B.E. in a 44 Spl. case is good load and looks to be just a tad hotter than your 5.5 gr load you were running in the Blackhawk. I would keep using that 5.7 load myself if I didn't want to switch over to magnum brass.
The Handloader #237 data that shows 6.5 grains of B.E. pushing a 250 Keith bullet to 886fps in a 4 " 629 (Almost EXCATLY what I'm doing) is reassuring and maybe even an indication that I'm under that level with the added volume of the magnum case.

Just for kicks, what powder do you prefer for those types of loads?

[35 Whelen]

I've been loading/shooting this afternoon so I looked at my log book:

5.5 grs. B'Eye, 260 gr. SWC-

4 3/4" Uberti- 810 fps
5 1/2" Uberti- 857 fps

5.7 grs. B'Eye-
4 3/4" Uberti- 838 fps

My absolute favorite powder is AL 20/28. Same bullet as above, 6.5 grs. runs 850-ish and 7.5 grs. 950-ish both depending on bbl. length. Second choice would be Unique which with identical charges runs 2.5-3.0% slower.

If you want to edge closer to 1000 fps 8.2 grs. of Power Pistol should put you right there.

Hope this helps.

35W

[Petrol & Powder]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

For now it looks like Bullseye, probably between 6.0-6.3grn. Wish I had more 231 or any Unique. I have some H110 but haven't had great results with that below 18.0gr and above that is way too fast for what I want.
I do have a pound of Vihtavuori 3N38 [Not 3N37] but I have no idea what to do with that.

[35 Whelen]

PLease note: The second load of Bullseye I listed should've read 5.7 grs. NOT 5.5. Sorry.

[Petrol & Powder]

Caught It! thanks.

[Petrol & Powder]

So here's an update. Using 44 mag. cases and a RCBS 44-250-K bullet lubed with White label BAC I tried the following loads:

6.1 grains of Bullseye was very accurate and mild to shoot.
6.3 grs shot about the same point of impact with the same point of aim, just a little more report.
8.2 grs of Unique seemed a little hotter (slightly more recoil & report) than the 6.3 of BE but still shot to the same point of aim. I could probably back that down to about 8.0 of Unique and be right with the 6.3 gr Bullseye load.

None of the above leaded the bore.

[Petrol & Powder]

UPDATE

After locating some Unique I've been comparing loads with Bullseye and Unique.

All loads use the same RCBS 44-250-K bullet (an excellent 44 bullet, IMHO), White Label BAC lube and magnum cases.

6.1 grains of Bullseye works OK but that could probably be bumped up to 6.3grns.

8.0 grains of Unique is very accurate and the group sizes are noticeably smaller than the ones using BE. I attribute that to the bulkier Unique taking up more space in the magnum casing and improving the ignition consistency.

I am satisfied with the load of 8.0grns. of Unique and I believe I will make that my standard 44 load. I'll probably save the Bullseye for use in my 38 Specials and dedicate the Unique to the 44 loads.

As much as I love the 44 Special cartridge, I intend to use only magnum length brass in my 44 magnum. That longer brass places the bullet closer to the cylinder throats and seems to work better.
I've had 44 Special's in the past and I really like that cartridge. I have no need for loads that push that 250 grain 44 caliber bullet past 1000 fps. Maybe someday I'll be able to find a model 24 or 624 that doesn't require a second mortgage but for now it's not in the cards.
Thanks for all of the input.

[habba8]

I like 5 gr of bullseye over a 240 gr Lee in a pinch.
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