Cimarron vs Cattleman and what load levels

[Bagdadjoe]

Multi question. I've located a Cimarron 44 Special 7 1/2", reasonable and at the same time a Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt...trying to narrow it down. My EAA Bounty Hunter 45 Colt will digest Brian Pearce's tier 2 loads like candy...is it prudent to use these loads in the Uberti/Cimarrons? Brian gives the 3 power levels for both of these calibers, depending on the strength of the gun, I'm sure most of you are familiar with him and his articles.

Not being up on Uberti nomenclature...other than caliber, is there a big difference in the two guns? I like the 44 Special but would have to have it shipped, the Cattleman is on the shelf.
Thanks

[jmort]

Yes to Brian Pearce .45 Colt "levels" and none of the imports should go beyond SAAMI spec, i.e. Level 1, 14k psi.The "New" Ruger Vaquero is good to level 2, around 20k psi. Same manufacturer, Uberti=Cimarron. I would not use 20k psi loads in an EAA but you know your gun better than I do.

[Bagdadjoe]

Thanks for the info. I knew nothing about the Ubertis...now I know a little bit more. ;-)

[220swiftfn]

Yes to Brian Pearce .45 Colt "levels" and none of the imports should go beyond SAAMI spec, i.e. Level 1, 14k psi.The "New" Ruger Vaquero is good to level 2, around 20k psi. Same manufacturer, Uberti=Cimarron. I would not use 20k psi loads in an EAA but you know your gun better than I do.

The new Vaquero went back to the smaller cylinder, and is recommended to be shot with SAAMI spec 14k psi. The older Vaquero's were built on the Blackhawk frame and can take 20k.........

Dan


EDIT....... Sorry, brain fart, my memory was off a level in regards to the two Vaquero's.........

[Bagdadjoe]

The EAA is built stouter than the NV I had...but, I went back and looked at my load data and the Herco loads I've been feeding it "like candy" are running at around 12,600 according to Alliant. I was loading correctly, just wasn't "on the same page" so to speak. :)
I'm happy with this load and if the Uberti will digest them, then I'm happy. Now just to decide 44 or 45. If I go with the 44, then the comfort loads I load for my Charter Bulldog should be just fine. The Herco loads I've been loading for it are around 12,100 per Alliant.
Thanks all.

[35 Whelen]

The new Vaquero went back to the smaller cylinder, and is recommended to be shot with SAAMI spec 14k psi. The older Vaquero's were built on the Blackhawk frame and can take 20k.........

Dan


EDIT....... Sorry, brain fart, my memory was off a level in regards to the two Vaquero's.........

Yep. The NM Vaquero, according to Mr. Pearce, is OK with loads in the 22,000 to 24000 psi range. (Handloader #234) I personally limit the Uberti 45 Colts to 14,000 psi loads.

I own two Uberti .44 Specials; a 4 3/4" and a 5 1/2", and have load them up to around 1100 with 255-260 gr. SWC's or in the area of Mr. Pearce's 22,000 psi loads. Given the thicker cylinder walls, I don't mind loading them heavier than a Uberti 45 Colt. I finally settled though on a load with Power Pistol that runs the same bullets a hair over 1000 fps after finding that bullets a little slower than this will penetrate a deer broadside out to 50 yds. at least.
35W

[Bagdadjoe]

What kind of accuracy are you getting from the 44's? I found a 7 1/2" that I keep going back to look at....since I already have a 45 Colt single action.

[35 Whelen]

What kind of accuracy are you getting from the 44's? I found a 7 1/2" that I keep going back to look at....since I already have a 45 Colt single action.

I've always gotten really good accuracy from my Bertie .44's. Had a few 100 yd. Groups in the 7-8" range.

[44MAG#1]

"I've always gotten really good accuracy from my Bertie .44's. Had a few 100 yd. Groups in the 7-8" range. "

Is that being shot offhand (freehand) or from the bench?

[robertbank]

I have three Uberti's. Mine would be comfortable laying beside anything that has come out of Hartford for 1/3 the price. They, as you know are SAA clones and are good to go with any .45Colt load. I am very pleased with the fit and finish of my Cattleman in .45Colt. Better than the Ruger I own.

The Ruger's shoot stouter loads beyond what the .45Colt was originally designed for and are excellent guns to be sure.

I regularly use 8.5 gr of Unique under my 250 gr LSWC boolit in my clones with no problems. For me it is as stout as I need to shoot. I don't push my Ruger flat top beyond that load only because it is just uncomfortable and I don't do uncomfortable any more.

Go with the Cattleman in .45Colt. You won't be disappointed.

Take Care

Bob

[littlejack]

My "go to" load in my Uberti "Evil Roy" SAA is 9 grains of Herco under 250 to 260 grain boolits.
As stated by Bob, that is all I want in that light SAA frame. Don't really need anything stouter here in the northwest.
Regards
Jack

[35 Whelen]

"I've always gotten really good accuracy from my Bertie .44's. Had a few 100 yd. Groups in the 7-8" range. "

Is that being shot offhand (freehand) or from the bench?

That's resting the gun over my left shoulder and using a mirror to sight it. It's a little loud, but what the ch. :mrgreen:

Mostly from a bench, although I have gotten some respectable groups from s sitting position.

All Uberti .44 Specials:



http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/55100yds-ed_zps13d02494.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/55100yds-ed_zps13d02494.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/Ubertigroup-1mod_zpsa7642578.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/Ubertigroup-1mod_zpsa7642578.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/5_zpsdf17a411.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/5_zpsdf17a411.jpg.html)

35W

[robertbank]

Very nice shooting!

Take Care

Bob

[Bagdadjoe]

Nothin' wrong with that... :)

[EMC45]

Excellent shooting!

[Larry Gibson]

The conundrum.........

Modern SAAs, especially those made by Uberti, come in a variety of cartridges with varying SAAMI MAPs. Keep in mind the SAAMI MAP is based on the cartridge and does not indicate what so ever what the firearm was designed for.

The SAAMI MAPs (in peizo-transducer/strain gauge psi's) for the cartridges chambered in the SAAs in discussion here run from 14,000 psi to 35,000 psi. The SAAMI MAPs are;

14,000 psi in the 45 Colt,
21,000 in the 45 ACP (many of these come with a cylinder in 45 ACP) with 23,000 psi for +P,
15,500 psi in the 44 SPL,
17,000 psi in 38 SPL with 18,500 psi in +P
and 35,000 psi in 357 Magnum.

Granted all of the different cartridges have different chamber thicknesses which should indicate some semblance of common sense in maximum loads. However we see here no indication the Uberti made SAAs are "designed for 14,000 psi", the SAAMI MAP for the 45 Colt cartridge. However, even though the 357 magnum can attain 35,000 psi I would not, and am not suggesting by any stretch of the imagination, that any of the other cartridges, especially the larger ones) be loaded to anywhere near that psi. However, the "Skeeter Skelton" load (7.5 gr Unique under a 240 - 255 gr SWC in the 44 SPL), as so apply demonstrated by 35 Whelen, is an excellent load. I have measured the psi (M43 Oehler) with that load and it will run 21,000 - 23,000 psi depending on exact bullet and lot of Unique. That is well within the psi range of the larger diameter 45 ACP cartridge (with thinner cylinder walls).

To answer the OPs question; I am not really sure of Brian Pierce's "tier 2 loads" but if they are under the SAAMI MAP for the 45 ACP I would suggest they are just fine in the Uberti SAAs. I have 2 Uberti 45 Colt SAAs (Artillery and Evil Roy models). The ER model also has the 45 ACP convertible cylinder. My standard load using a 452-200-RF over 7.3 gr of BE runs right at 14,000 psi. That is not by design but simple where the load ended up as it was developed to emulate the 44-40 out of a rifle (1150 - 1200 fps). That just happens to run 950 fps out of the revolvers. It is very accurate and quite sufficient for my needs. I also shoot a lot of my standard 45 ACP load which runs 18,000 psi out of the ER. The Artillery SAA has had thousands of rounds through it over the last 20+ years. Other than the usual bolt and hand spring breakage it is not any worse for wear.

My advise to the OP is if you want a 44 SPL then the Uberti's are good choices, especially if the classic SAA style is desired.

Larry Gibson

[robertbank]

Larry the Uberti name is owned by Beretta one of the oldest and most respected firearm manufacturers in the world. Their SAA Army guns are as well made as anything made on this side of the Atlantic using the same design and probably as good or better than anything Colt has made. If Uberti sells their SAA in .357Mag you can be darn sure the gun is up to it or Beretta would never put it out there. From my experience if you load your cartridges to SAMMI specs or within loading manual parameters you need not worry about damaging these guns.

The guns today using modern steels and CNC equipment are not the guns of our great grand parents and while the original 1873 SAA likely would not stand up to .357mag pressures modern guns of that design certainly will and the Ubertis are no exception.

Take Care

Bob

[35 Whelen]

European firearms are tested and held to pressures designated under CIP; that continents version of SAAMI. CIP requires each firearm manufactured best fired with two proof loads generating pressure (going from memory)1.35 that of the cartridge s standard operating pressure. That'd be around 19,000 for the 45 Colt and close to 21,000 for the 44 Special.

I remember reading a post here a few months ago by a member who'd fired in excess of 5000 rounds of 45 Colt l loaded with 9.0 grs. Of Unique with 250-255 gr. bullets and according to him the revolver was as tight as ever.

35W

[Thumbcocker]

8.0 of power pistol gets Skeeter load velocities with tier one pressure in .44 special.

[Bagdadjoe]

A wealth of information here..not just information but useful information. I just bought the Cimarron .44 Special 7 1/2" and traded another piece for a New Vaquero in 45 Colt..two in one day. Might be my record :) I don't really find a need to hotrod either one of these, but do want to take full advantage of what power is safely available. The Herco loads I shoot in my EAA Bounty Hunter are not over the top, but not wimp loads in that gun either. I think I'll be a happy camper with these two. The only 44 molds I have are an LBT 280 WFN and a 429421 Lyman. I might have to break down and get a 250-KT for the Special. Thanks to everyone for the info.

[35 Whelen]

Sou dsl like you did good!! I too have a NM Vaquero in 45 Colt. My practice load is 5.0 grs. or Clays and an RCBS 45-255. Runs about 725 fps. My other load is with the same bullet (262 grs.) over 10.0 grs. of Unique for 1035 fps out of the 4 5/8" barrel. The heavier load is very accurate.

You can see above the loads I use in my .44 Specials although I have added 8.2 grs. of Power Pistol which runs 1000 or a bit more.

DO get the 44-250KT!

35W

[Larry Gibson]

Larry the Uberti name is owned by Beretta one of the oldest and most respected firearm manufacturers in the world. Their SAA Army guns are as well made as anything made on this side of the Atlantic using the same design and probably as good or better than anything Colt has made. If Uberti sells their SAA in .357Mag you can be darn sure the gun is up to it or Beretta would never put it out there. From my experience if you load your cartridges to SAMMI specs or within loading manual parameters you need not worry about damaging these guns.

The guns today using modern steels and CNC equipment are not the guns of our great grand parents and while the original 1873 SAA likely would not stand up to .357mag pressures modern guns of that design certainly will and the Ubertis are no exception.

Take Care

Bob

Bob

I certainly concur, especially the quality of the modern Uberti and Berreta made SAAs. Yes the European firearms are tested for the pressures of the cartridge they are chambered in. My point was and all I'm say is that the SAAMI or CIP MAP does not mean the firearm was designed only for those pressures. Unfortunately many do think the SAAMI or CIP MAP is what the action (firearm) under discussion was "designed for". Point is; it isn't. Not disagreeing with you just clarifying my point.

Obviously the design and quality of construction of modern SAAs (Colts were also made in 357 Magnum - Gen 2s) is such that the SAAMI MAP of 14,000 psi and the CIP MAP of 16,000 psi (peizo-transducer/strain gauge) is somewhat below what the revolvers are quite capable of digesting a steady diet of. That becomes obvious because of the 357 Magnum and 45 ACP chamberings.

However, that is not to say I would load the 44s or 45s to the same level of psi as the 357 Magnum is. Prudence dictates otherwise because of the much thinner cylinder walls. I'd have no qualms shooting Skeeter's 44 SPL load in any 44 SPL Uberti, Berreta or newly made Colt SAA. I also have shot a lot of the "classic" 45 Colt load of 8.5 gr Unique under a 250 - 260 gr cast bullet. That load runs 18,000 - 19,000 psi with the 45-255-KT or the 454190. I also shoot lots of 45 ACP loads in the ER Uberti (excellent revolver BTW) that run 18,000 - 21,000 psi. Not guessing at those psi's BTW but have measured them. I do believe we in agreement with; "From my experience if you load your cartridges to SAMMI specs or within loading manual parameters you need not worry about damaging these guns. as those will be quite safe in any of the revolvers mentioned.

Larry Gibson

[robertbank]

Larry we are in 100% agreement. I have the El Patrone in .357mag. Great revolvers to be sure. Love to find an El Patrone/Evil Roy in 45Colt with a 4 3/4 barrel. I like my Cattleman but those original style sights really limit me to distances the gun was designed for, as in up close and personal. The Beretta Stampede is marginally better but the sights on the El Patrone are perfect for what I use the guns for. I should get the Cattlemans rear sight channel widened a bit. Might make my old eyes younger.:mrgreen:

Take Care

Bob

[Changeling]

So, if Uberti build such nice revolvers why don't they produce revolvers in the Large/Medium frame Ruger catagory, I'm sure a LOT would be interested in seeing that. And Rugers Patents must have already run out long ago.
They have some world class engineers I wouldn't think there would't be much of a problem, but evidently there is some sort of problem, What is it?

Just a question, don't shoot the messanger!

[robertbank]

So, if Uberti build such nice revolvers why don't they produce revolvers in the Large/Medium frame Ruger catagory, I'm sure a LOT would be interested in seeing that. And Rugers Patents must have already run out long ago.
They have some world class engineers I wouldn't think there would't be much of a problem, but evidently there is some sort of problem, What is it?

Probably the marketplace. Ruger owns the competition orientated crowd who shoot Cowboy Action revolvers from what I understand and the SAA clones fight for the traditionalist dollars.

They fill a void for Cowboy Action Shooters - have you ever held one of their 1873 Winchesters. They are extremely well made rifles with quality written all over them.

Why doesn't Colt make them? Why doesn't S&W compete in that market? Why do I have to get my GP - 100 cylinder throats reamed out to .358 when they come from the factory .355 - .357. Who makes a jacketed bullet for the .357 Mag sized .355? Evidently the engineers at Ruger thinks somebody does along with .450 bullets for the .45Colt Ruger flat top convertible I have.

Maybe Beretta or the founders of Uberti saw a market niche they could fill using modern equipment when Colt was still using their old equipment and fitting parts by hand. Too, who could for tell the growth and popularity of Cowboy Action Shooting?

Take Care

Bob