Where do I go from here?

[crabo]

Well, my first accuracy loads from the bench with my boolits was a little disapointing. Before I bought the equipment to cast, I bought a bunch of different boolits from Montanna Bullet Works. Some shot well and others didn't.

I got a number of 1 and 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards. I also got several 2 1/4 -2 1/2 inch groups at 100 meters. This is shooting from a good bench and sandbagged up. I am shooting an 8 3/8ths S&W 581 with a Luepold 2.5x8 scope.
These results were with the MBW bullets.

Now, my boolits using Bullseye, Titegroup, and 231, in 38 special cases, tonight I was getting 4" groups from my loads at 50 yards. I am using a Ballisticast mold of the H&G 51, 158 grain swc. I am lubing with Lar's BAC lube. I am sizing the bullets to .358 on a star lubrisizer. My best group was with the 125 grain Lee flat round nose and it was 2 1/2 at 50 yards with 3.8 of titegroup.

I noticed the MBW bullets were hardcast and it seems like they were a BN of 18and I am using ACWW.

I didn't feel like I was shooting all that good and I know that contributed some. I also didn't weigh any of the bullets that I loaded, I just made sure they were lubed well.

So the question is, what should I do now? Do I need to try water dropping? Load up some more and see if it is shooter error? Change lubes? Any ideas?

I know that all I probably need to do is tweak my technique some. I know my gun and I are capable of shooting some good groups with cast bullets. It just wasn't tonight.

Crabo

[Vly]

I read your post three times to get the full gist of what you are saying. My thoughts, in no particular order.

When I shoot 2 1\2 inch GROUPS at 100 meters with a 8 inch barreled revolver I'm going to be jumping up and down screaming "I'm da man". And when I get home I'm placing another order with Montana Bullets.

What was the diameter of the MBW bullets? I would use that diameter as a size to diameter as it seems your revolver likes them.

Obviously, your lube is different than the lube on the MBW bullets. In my own experience, I have found when I change lubes on a proven load sometimes I need to rework the load. The bore conditions change and things are just "different".

I don't think your ACWW is a negative factor given your 38 SPL velocities.

I would retry since you say you didn't feel your best. Continue experimenting with your cast boolits until you get the level of accuracy you want.

[Mk42gunner]

Crabo,

I have always thought shooting groups was at least 90% mental; at least as long as you aren't shooting something with significant recoil. If you didn't feel you were shooting well tonight; try again tomorrow.

If you still have some of the bullets that you bought, try some matching loads. If you fire them during the same range session it should tell you which bullet is more accurate.

Robert

[crabo]

Let me clarify something about the groups, the 100 meter groups were in magnum cases with 15 grains of 2400. I didn't get that kind of groups with the special loads. I did get 1 to 11/2 inch groups at 50 yards with the special cases. Those were shot indoors at a local range. When I shot the special loads at 100 meters, the groups opened up.

The bullets from MBW were sized 358 as are mine. I have opened up my cylinders and firelapped the gun. The 2.5-8 Luepold scope helps a lot.

I was rushed for time since I didn't realize the range closed early on Saturday night. I think that might have been part of the problem, plus there were guys shooting big bore rifles around me. That didn't help to much either.

Thanks,

Crabo

[jhalcott]

Sounds to me like a bit of bragging here! I do not NORMALLY shoot THAT good with some of MY handguns. I be tickled to get such groups. OH yea, the groups DO open a bit from 50 to 100 yards!

[MT Gianni]

I need to season my bbl when I change lubes to get the accuracy back. I would keep shooting at least 50 rds with the new lube before accuracy testing. Failing that I would scrub it as if I had shot copper, foul with cast and check accuracy. Gianni

[Buckshot]

................I wouldn't mind 1.5" groups at 100 yards with a rifle, let alone a steenking peestol :-) Scope or not.

.................Buckshot

[crabo]

I need to season my bbl when I change lubes to get the accuracy back. I would keep shooting at least 50 rds with the new lube before accuracy testing. Failing that I would scrub it as if I had shot copper, foul with cast and check accuracy. Gianni

I did not season my barrel when I switched to my loads. I did not even run a patch through it. I will try that. The MBW bullets had LBT blue lube on them, and I jumped right in with BAC. This is the kind of help I am looking for.

And for the record, I did not say I could get 1.5 groups at 100. I did that at 50, sandbagged, off the bench, indoors. I am not capable of doing that offhand. I don't understand why anyone thinks I am bragging. I am just looking for some help in fine tuning some loads to get the accuracy I think my gun and bullets are capable of.

Crabo

[Wicky]

It almost seems like you may be at the accuracy of your pistol - 1.5" groups at 50 I usually don't expect much better than this at 25!
Have you considered another powder? Some times I have found going to a powder that would seem usuitable can make the difference - Blue Dot maybe
Good luck
If you get smaller than those 1.5" groups I wouldn't mind the load ;-)

[Lloyd Smale]

im happy with accuracy thats half that. If i got that good of accuracy out of a sixgun my load developement for that gun would be done!
Well, my first accuracy loads from the bench with my boolits was a little disapointing. Before I bought the equipment to cast, I bought a bunch of different boolits from Montanna Bullet Works. Some shot well and others didn't.

I got a number of 1 and 1 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards. I also got several 2 1/4 -2 1/2 inch groups at 100 meters. This is shooting from a good bench and sandbagged up. I am shooting an 8 3/8ths S&W 581 with a Luepold 2.5x8 scope.
These results were with the MBW bullets.

Now, my boolits using Bullseye, Titegroup, and 231, in 38 special cases, tonight I was getting 4" groups from my loads at 50 yards. I am using a Ballisticast mold of the H&G 51, 158 grain swc. I am lubing with Lar's BAC lube. I am sizing the bullets to .358 on a star lubrisizer. My best group was with the 125 grain Lee flat round nose and it was 2 1/2 at 50 yards with 3.8 of titegroup.

I noticed the MBW bullets were hardcast and it seems like they were a BN of 18and I am using ACWW.

I didn't feel like I was shooting all that good and I know that contributed some. I also didn't weigh any of the bullets that I loaded, I just made sure they were lubed well.

So the question is, what should I do now? Do I need to try water dropping? Load up some more and see if it is shooter error? Change lubes? Any ideas?

I know that all I probably need to do is tweak my technique some. I know my gun and I are capable of shooting some good groups with cast bullets. It just wasn't tonight.

Crabo

[Rick N Bama]

If I were to shoot a 1.5" group at 50 yards with any of my handguns I would be jumping up & down with joy. Go ahead & brag, you've earned the right!

Rick

[crabo]

You guys have missed the point of my post. I was asking what to do with groups that were considerably larger with my new bullet, new lube, bad shooting day, new loads. Most of the responses seem to be about what I did with some loads before. I am looking for ways to improve my shooting, loading, and casting. I don't care about impressing a bunch of people I don't know, and will likely never meet. I have set standards for myself that I want to meet.

Forget group sizes. I don't want to buy bullets from MBW to get my gun to shoot well. I want my bullets, that I cast, that I size, that I lube, that I load, to shoot as well as the bullets that I bought from MBW. This is the issue I want to discuss.

Thank you for the suggestions that some of you have made to help me understand the cast bullet journey.

Crabo

[Leftoverdj]

OK, first thing to do reshoot under the best possible conditions to check the human error factor. We all have good and bad days, especially with pistols, and you need to eliminate the bad day factor before putting a lot of work into load development.

As has been mentioned, you need to check the diameter of the MBW against the diameter of the bullets you make. Diameter is absolutely crucial to accuracy, and you cannot trust nominal sizes.

Third, you might try magnum cases. There are guns that refuse to shoot their best with the shorter cases.

I don't see any obvious red flags. All your choices look reasonable to me. However, you have had to change everything. You're using a different bullet of a different hardness with a different lube and likely a different diameter. You're going to get get different results until you find the right match of what you have to work with.

I'm fond of WW 231 and you indicate that you have that. After verifying that your bullets are indeed large enough, try testing 4.0, 4.3, and 4.6 grains in .38 Special cases. One of those should be a good pressure match for your ACWW.

[44man]

Yeah, dump the special cases!
Very small groups don't come easy and take a lot of work and testing. I get some that even blow my mind but they don't come every time either. Certain days everything just goes away.
The secret is to get AVERAGE groups as small as you can. If I shoot 1000 groups and they AVERAGE 1" I am happy.
You will not get an easy answer. You have to fool with boolit diameter, match to twist at the velocity you want to play with, boolit shape and design, alloy, lube, etc. If you choose a powder you have to work in small amounts from minimum to max and if it doesn't work, try another powder. Same with primers. Then there are the dies you load with, are they right? How much case tension do you have and is it even from case to case?
I post a lot of group pictures but guess what? It took me years and years of work, making molds to try and a ton of components. Plus a lot of just sitting and thinking.
The only thing you can hope for is if someone else shoots the same gun, the same boolit and has done enough work to refine it and can tell you what to do.
From what you are telling us is that you are shooting very well with mag cases but not with special brass---what does that tell you? You made a BIG change right off! :???: Use that brass in a .38 special! All changes must be small and one item at a time worked. If you change the lube and the powder all at once, you are lost. If you change the brass, you are lost.
Slow down, take it easy and don't expect ANYTHING to fall in place by itself.
Welcome to the brotherhood of the nutcase! :mrgreen:

[black44hawk]

Yes I am disappointed with my cast bullet reloads too. They continually make more than a single hole at distances of 50-100 meters.:mrgreen:

[Ghugly]

Sounds like some good advice here. Change one and only one thing at a time. Document your loads and results in detail. And, if it doesn't present too much of a hardship, use the mag cases and try to use the same manufacture and trim length. If you are going to use the special cases, for whatever reason, make them as uniform as possible. For me, this is where the real fun is. Have a great time!

[44man]

Black44hawk, Oh ye of little faith.
Revolver groups at 50 yd's
.475 Linebaugh on left at 5/8"
45-70, two, five shot groups. Yes the center one is 7/16" after a sight adjustment.
My SBH has done a few groups at 1" at 100 yd's. Both of the BFR's have done less then 1" at 100.
Home made molds and cast boolits.
Try that with a 4 minute red dot! [smilie=1:
You fellas read too much. You all have guns that will do it. You have to do the work and don't believe anything except what you do yourself.
By the way, all groups shot were hot hunting loads with heavy boolits.

[Bass Ackward]

You guys have missed the point of my post. I was asking what to do with groups that were considerably larger with my new bullet, new lube, bad shooting day, new loads. Most of the responses seem to be about what I did with some loads before. I am looking for ways to improve my shooting, loading, and casting. I don't care about impressing a bunch of people I don't know, and will likely never meet. I have set standards for myself that I want to meet.

Forget group sizes. I don't want to buy bullets from MBW to get my gun to shoot well. I want my bullets, that I cast, that I size, that I lube, that I load, to shoot as well as the bullets that I bought from MBW. This is the issue I want to discuss.

Thank you for the suggestions that some of you have made to help me understand the cast bullet journey.

Crabo


Crabo,

Personally, I think 3.8 grains of tight Group is too slow and that you need to step it up if you want to shoot 50 yards. How can you tell?

Try 25 yard groups and see if they are closer than 1/2 the 50 yard group size. If they are closer there by less than half, you are starting to destabilise at 50 yards and need MORE VELOCITY with that bullet design than that load is generating.

If you start to lead as you raise your pressure up, you may need a slower powder to get there. If you were destabilizing, try 6 - 6.5 grains of Unique and see what happens. If your 25 yard groups are exactly half, then I don't know what I'm talking about and bypass my suggestion.

[44man]

Bass is right. Light loads are hard to get to shoot. You have to work up with every powder selection. Fast powders reach max sooner so you might want to try some slower powders too.

[crabo]

I appreciate the good answers that I am getting now. This is starting to make sense. I know the gun will shoot, I just needed some good directions. Advice like "you just have to keep testing because every gun is different" is true, but just doesn't help you know what to try next.

Thanks,

Crabo

[EDK]

You need a supply of small baggies and 3X5 cards....baggies for each different variation of components and the 3X5 card that you have written everything down on about that particular load. Add cleaning equipment so you can eliminate any effects from the previous load and you're good to go. Go shoot; take notes; and shoot some more...lots more! Then start refining the better groups. If you want to see this carried REALLY FAR, go over to shilohrifle.com/forums and read up on what the black powder shooters do! Those birds take nit picking to a fine art! I think this is called "the scientific method" and we have some guys here with a lot of formal education who can explain it better than "a sledge hammer millwright from the power plant."

My Cowboy Action Shooting loads in 357 use 38 special brass(got lots of it cheap!) and LYMAN 358665 with a Brinnell hardness of 10 or 11. I've also got moulds for 358156, 357429 and 357446. Varying boolits or powders tends to make a 357 change point of aim/point of impact...especially in Original Size VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS. A change of grips will also throw things "H--- west and crooked." Any variables with a 357 tend to move things--and group sizes--around in my experience. (I've had a lot better luck with low end 44s in either Special or Magnum brass in my other VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS and SUPER BLACKHAWKS and BISLEYS. They aren't near as touchy, but I've had them quite awhile.)

Handloading is about experimenting and doing a "little tweaking" from time to time. Sometimes it seems like a lot of work. I like to "tweak," but I need to write better notes!

:cbpour: :redneck:

[black44hawk]

44man, you have proven my cynicism to be misguided ignorance. If there was such a thing as a shooting/reloading guru, I would simply divest myself of all my belongings (except my guns and equipment) and follow you, listening to your wise words! Impressive shooting, I guess I shouldn't stop trying for perfection.

[andrew375]

The bullets you are using are too hard for the loads you are using. Either up the pressure of the loads, which is the only thing you can do with store bought bullets, or cast from a softer alloy. My .45 auto REALLY liked bullets cast from pure lead. :Fire:

And ditch the special cases.

One other thing is to contact Wolfe publishing and ask for copies of the articles by John Zemanek. He was doing exactly what you are trying to achieve and wrote it all up for HandLoader in the early 1990's. The articles are worth it just for the methodology alone.