Custom Ruger .45 barrel - Which blank is best for heavy cast boolits?

[DougGuy]

If a fella wanted to have a custom barrel made for a Ruger SA revolver, for shooting heavy for caliber cast boolits, which mfgr's blank and which twist rate would be best?

For the 300+gr WFN GC style boolit, 1100 - 1200f/s speeds, 50/50+2% or 20:1 alloy.

I have a Pac Nor SS blank, but it's 1:18 RH twist. My concerns with using it are that the twist is too slow for the big Lee RF boolit, and that the rifling is really shallow. It's beautiful to look down it, but not sure how well it will work for a Ruger Vaquero shooting cast boolits.

Thoughts?

[Ed K]

That's not too slow. Take note: the 44 cal version of the same bullet shoots great for everyone on this board. It is longer than the 45 version so theoretically needs a faster twist. Most are shooting it in a 1-20" twist 44 mag.

[dubber123]

I am unsure if it is similar to the blank you have, but Ross Seyfried used a Pac-Nor blank in .45 to shoot his 1" groups at 100 yds. for his article on long range revolver accuracy. He used heavy boolit, full power loads.

[C. Latch]

Tagged. This interests me a lot.

BTW, what OD and taper is your Pac-Nor? Similar to Vaquero, blackhawk, heavier.....????

[DougGuy]

Mine right now is just a 1 1/4" rifled blank, 14" long.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ross-seyfried-lipseys-ruger-flattop-44-special-bisley-revolvers/


Incidentally it was a barrel just like this, Taylor throated and fire lapped, that I used to fire 1-inch groups at 100 yards, with all six chambers in a revolver!

Ahh yes.. Mr. Seyfried.. I have one of the Clymer Taylor Throating reamers, they work great and they do what Ross Seyfried says they do.

[shorty500M]

will draw an onslaught of heavy projectiles lobbed into my general direction for this but i aint scared- i truly believe most conversations regarding handgun twist rates are mostly wasted because after spending my life shooting standard thru extremely heavy slugs in big bore handguns am convinced that if using quality bullet in quality barrel you will tend to be very good to go. the only bad case scenario i can think of is the so-called expert smith who would screw you over by using a section of marlin 1-38twist lol. even the slow 1-24 standard for the .454 shoots extremely well and stabile with heavy 340-360grainers launched as slow as 1200fps all way out to 400plus yards. john linebaugh prefers a 1-20 for his .45s. the factory 1-16 rugers work well as do the scarce m25 .45 Colts with 1in18-3/4

[Changeling]

If a fella wanted to have a custom barrel made for a Ruger SA revolver, for shooting heavy for caliber cast boolits, which mfgr's blank and which twist rate would be best?

For the 300+gr WFN GC style boolit, 1100 - 1200f/s speeds, 50/50+2% or 20:1 alloy.

I have a Pac Nor SS blank, but it's 1:18 RH twist. My concerns with using it are that the twist is too slow for the big Lee RF boolit, and that the rifling is really shallow. It's beautiful to look down it, but not sure how well it will work for a Ruger Vaquero shooting cast boolits.

Thoughts?

How long is the barrel, is it for full house loads only, can you handle these loads?

There are a lot of questions that people don't consider when loading at the outer edge of velocity on many rifles/Revolver calibers, FACT !
A dedicate pistolero can become used to some very heavy revolver loads in large calibers like the 44Mag, 45 Colt ( Ruger), onward and upward with a lot of practice or just rambling through the woods and shooting at something, be it a squirrel/rabbit or a bump on a log! Some cannot, it's not a MAN thing, it's just what it is, live with it!

All of this has been rushed information, However a word about accuracy is needed relative to twist.
In practically all firearms the best accuracy will come from a barrel with a barrel on the "EDGE" of twist/weight/speed before becoming unstable, FACT!
Is this what one should look for, NO, unless your game is precision shooting, people here are shooters/hunters.

What you want is a twist rate that is appropriate for the cartridge/bullet weight/length of the projectile you are shooting especially in the standard firearms you are shooting. COMPETITION IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD, trust me!

As for the original question 1 in 18 should not be a problem unless you plan on shooting it under 1000 fps. Witch from knowing you is Very doubtful, LOL!
It's actually a lot more involved than this, but I think you get the message.

[44man]

The accuracy point on my Vaquero with 335 gr boolits is 1160 fps. I also shoot the Lyman 320 that actually drops at 347 gr.
1 in 18 is no problem, just go a little faster. I would guess about 1200 fps.
The reason the 1 in 20", .44 works is they are shot at 1300+ fps.
The 1 in 24" of the .454 is shot even a lot faster and no, you will not get accuracy at 1100 fps.

[shorty500M]

lol, always some loud mouth in every crowd that thinks if he cant do it with a freedom arms then cant anybody else, typically one that has waged a one man bad PR campain for some years now

[Ed K]

Time to throw out all of our 1-18.75" S&W 38/357s as they will no longer shoot under 1000fps ...

[DougGuy]

Good stuffs! I guess the 1:18 is right in there.. 44man your Vaquero is a 7 1/2" right? I guess mine would have the same twist rate, and if the boolit threads itself on the rifling in the first inch or so and doesn't skid, I should have the same rotation as a longer barrel, provided the velocity was the same?

I'm trying to stay between 1150 - 1200f/s with the Lee RF boolits.

[Changeling]

Time to throw out all of our 1-18.75" S&W 38/357s as they will no longer shoot under 1000fps ...

Maybe you should go with shorty, maybe as a couple. A good analyist could get you two guys up in no time, 2 or 3 years at most. Also he could probably get Ed to learn how to read entire posts so he would know what he's talking about.

You 2 enjoy yourselves and take care.

[C. Latch]

I'm always surprised at which threads turn ugly. It's never the ones you expect.

[jandbj]

Way back when I recall Ross Seyfried had one done up in G&A trying to build a 1MOA 45 colt on a Bisley. I don't recall the specifics beyond what I've typed and that he used LBT heavyweights. Was probably done by Linebaugh or Bowen. Hope this helps.

Not the article I was thinking of but helpful just the same....
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=321&magid=24

[frank505]

Gosh, my 32 inch twist shoots my 360 grain Keith bullet very well way out there, like the last time at 547 yards. But then it has revolver sights, no scopes for me. Green Mountain barrels makes a 32 twist, the Ruger 16 twist is simply the same as a 1911 45 acp I believe. What twist is in the Colt 45? They will shoot a good bullet quite a ways, maybe not an wfn though..................

[Ed K]

I'll stand by post #2 in saying 1-18" is not only good enough but probably about ideal. Range was never mentioned but like wadcutters, WFNs have always been intended as a relatively modest range tool. What ever it is that the vast majority of shooters want to do beyond 100-150 yards won't benefit from that 80% meplat anyways so go ahead and bust rocks or shoot steel with a 70% or less nose.

[44man]

Always someone, notice I did not mention Freedom, the gun in question is a SRH .454.
The twist is OK for heavy if shot fast enough to spin up.
Now the S&W .44 with the 1 in 18-3/4" twist is best with 250 to 265 gr boolits, Over spins a 240 at max loads. You need to watch them with a good spotting scope to see it, yet the 240 will do 1/2" at 50 meters, Only POI changes with distance.

[44man]

103681
Good stuffs! I guess the 1:18 is right in there.. 44man your Vaquero is a 7 1/2" right? I guess mine would have the same twist rate, and if the boolit threads itself on the rifling in the first inch or so and doesn't skid, I should have the same rotation as a longer barrel, provided the velocity was the same?
I'm trying to stay between 1150 - 1200f/s with the Lee RF boolits.
Yes, 7-1/2" with a 1 in 16" rate. All you need with the 1 in 18" is a tad more velocity. Well within pressure limits. Short barrels do need shot faster powders to reach speed.
This is what my Vaquero did at 50 yards with the 347 gr Lyman.

[44man]

103683
I'll stand by post #2 in saying 1-18" is not only good enough but probably about ideal. Range was never mentioned but like wadcutters, WFNs have always been intended as a relatively modest range tool. What ever it is that the vast majority of shooters want to do beyond 100-150 yards won't benefit from that 80% meplat anyways so go ahead and bust rocks or shoot steel with a 70% or less nose.
Not so, an 80% is accurate to 500 meters or more. The reason most will say no is because they shoot them too slow for the twist.
My .44 boolit has an 80% meplat and a drop test at 200 yards gave me a 1-5/16" three shot group.
103688
This is the same boolit at 50 yards when shot too slow, I call it my .44 joke.
Notice nobody proves what they say when they say a 300 gr+ will shoot at 1000 fps or less.
I would also love to see a .45 revolver with a 1 in 32" twist shoot 500 meters. Can't be done with a rifle.

[44man]

103689One picture failed to show up, the 200 yard drop test, so here it is again.

[44man]

Time to throw out all of our 1-18.75" S&W 38/357s as they will no longer shoot under 1000fps ...
Have you noticed you are not shooting 300 gr+ boolits. The mind kinds of gets DENSE after a while!
Sorry a few of you started this again.
Changeling found you two and sees what you are throwing out. Others understand rifling twists.
I have no lock on rifling by the way, it is a fixed thing that velocity must match.
Had an argument with Marlin about the 1 in 38" twist of their .44, they stupidly sent me a copy of Greenhill. Notice they changed the .444 to 1 in 20"?

[44man]

I'm always surprised at which threads turn ugly. It's never the ones you expect.
Yeah, just what did I say? I did not insult anyone but I have a reputation about the Freedom and have never been proven wrong. That extends to Ruger, S&W and Marlin too. They screw up too but that is OK, just never mention a $2500 mistake.
Like buying a house for $250,000,000 to find it is worth $200,000 and you are stuck paying the rest.
Some will defend bad choices and hope they will make money.
I do my best to not offend and tell the truth but it is not enough for a few.
The Vaquero group I shot at 50 was a challenge from someone. They said I lied, can't be done, so I stuck 5 rounds in my gun and went down to shoot them Creedmore at 50.
Yet you read claims all day long with no proof at all. A puff of dust on yon hillside must mean accuracy, The gun actually went BANG.
I am amazed at how many custom guns can not match an out of box gun. Money spent will not get you better but it hurts when it truth finally comes out.

[44man]

The full wad cutter or Keith semi has a flaw. The little shoulder that will mash at the forcing cone putting the boolit out of line to the bore. That means the cylinder to bore alignment must be perfect.
The WLN and WFN will use the nose to pull the cylinder and both will shoot astounding distances but the Keith will too if the gun is perfect.
The meplat has nothing to do with accuracy over distance at all. Drag for drop is all. Not good for long range flight but that will always be different to accuracy anyway.
A round ball is very bad but if you seen what it can do at 200+yards or the Minie' ball at unreal distances, you might get wise. Can I shoot at any of you with a musket and Minie' at 200 yards? Can I shoot at you with my WFN at 500 meters?
Did I ever tell you the 22-250 has the wrong twist for a 60 gr bullet? I will never apologize for what I said about the Freedom or any other gun. The fact is "any other gun" is not contested. Just the expensive ones. I actually find more problems with the S&W then most guns.

[DougGuy]

Heh I'm glad I didn't get into the whole "designer big bore" thing when all these nice as hades revolvers started appearing. I'm finding the Rugers to be quite accurate, if only the simplest dimensions are checked and corrected if and when necessary. Cylinder throats are the biggest one, and then forcing cone/thread choke would be next. If you have those correct, it's awful hard to make one shoot badly unless you just can't shoot a SA revolver.

I started this thread with a Pac-Nor blank sitting here, I have had it for nearly 20yrs. I was going to send my Vaquero to someone and have a custom barrel made for it because I was p*ssed at Ruger sending it back from repair shooting badly to the left. They have since fixed the Vaquero by clocking the barrel so tightly in the frame it choked it down to .4485" (which if I was shooting j words or really soft boolits, nobody would ever know the difference because those will swage down and once clear of the obstruction and into the bore, because they are soft, they will swage back up enough to seal -especially- with heavy loads of W296 or H110). So I Taylor throated the barrel, and got on down the road with it.. Shoots good, no leading, problem solved. Spared the cost of the custom barrel.

Now, I have the fine Lee 300gr RF boolit, the Vaquero is showing a preference for 50/50+2% alloy SAME as my .44 SBH did. Surprise surprise.. There is a "magic boolit" hiding in almost every gun IF you hit on the right combination to find it. I think there is a direct relation between the hardness of the alloy, and the barrel twist, at the current 1150f/s velocity. Harder alloys, Lyman #2 to be specific, opens groups slightly as opposed to the softer 50/50+2%. I have the same boolit in 20:1 alloy, softer still, that you can dig a thumbnail into. It does not group quite as good as the 50/50+2% but it groups better than the Lyman #2. I don't think I can push this boolit fast enough out of this short barrel to make the harder alloy shoot good.

If the Ruger barrel is 1:16 twist, and the rifling is fairly deep, I am just curious as to how a custom barrel will shoot with 1:18 twist, with shallower and wider rifling. I am sure it will have a preference for alloy, likely harder as velocities increase. Almost curious enough to send it out and have it done.


The full wad cutter or Keith semi has a flaw. The little shoulder that will mash at the forcing cone putting the boolit out of line to the bore. That means the cylinder to bore alignment must be perfect.

I totally agree, I find the long bearing surfaces and smooth ojive of the RF boolit profile to be extremely well suited to a longer 11° forcing cone and likewise why I don't prefer any boolits with the Keith style driving band.

[44man]

Good thinking. I also shot a lot of 50-50 boolits but found I needed to oven harden to 18 to 20 BHN and they need a gc. it did not harm ductile properties at all.
I do not like Lyman no 2 and use straight WW metal. But that changes all over the country. I never add tin either. That did not get better.
Notice my best .44 boolit has a nose ogive close to my 11* forcing cone. It has better steerage to the barrel.

[Changeling]

Hi Doug, how long is your .45s barrel? Reason being, if it is one that is under 5", and you can get a good deal on having your blank cut and installed, you might want to consider getting it done to at least 7.5". Under 5" and there will be some broblems involved in driving the "Heavy boolits" fast enough. ( I doubt if you would have a problem selling the old barrel.)
Higher powder charges, definitely more recoil, shorter sight length, I'm sure you probably realize these things, but I'M just pointing them out.
They are important considerations, and I get the impression you are the kind of guy that likes doing things right!
Take care.


Possibly there is someone here, "experienced in working with revolver barrels" that could do an installation reasonably. Check out the gunsmiths section.

[DougGuy]

There is enough blank for 2 barrels. This one will be 4 3/4" because it's going on a belly gun, the one in my avatar. I have sorta been looking for another stainless .45 Vaquero in 7 1/2" length. There will be enough left over for that one too.

[Ed K]

Have you noticed you are not shooting 300 gr+ boolits. The mind kinds of gets DENSE after a while!


Correct: about 158-180gr. Sectional density of 180 is very close to 300gr 45.

[44man]

Correct: about 158-180gr. Sectional density of 180 is very close to 300gr 45.
SD means little except in flight. I have been always thinking it is drive length of a boolit in contact with rifling, not weight or how much nose is not in contact.
But you will see the same between any weight in the .357, the 180 will not be shot as fast as the 158 but it will still need to be shot where it is stable.
You will need a little more velocity with the 180 from a S&W then you need from the 1 in 14" Freedom. Not drastic, just enough.
Changeling is correct, shorten a barrel, twist does not change but the ability to reach velocity and spin changes. Peak pressure must be moved back with faster powders and so too does boolit damage from instant pressure.
My thinking has always been that if you shorten a barrel, the twist should be made faster. Either way, fast powder or faster twist will need a tougher boolit.
Some X frames have a gain twist optimum for the caliber, yet guys shorten them, Oh my! What have they done? Even a factory, short barrel has removed what is needed.