mediocrity is ok for me

[nekshot]

This week I was pulling out past recipes of very nice 1 inch moa or better loads and found it was impossible to reproduce the exact same results as I was used to doing with jackets. I have come to peace with my inner man always pushing for perfection that mediocrity is ok. Hey the groubs did not change that much but it still was minute of deer groubs. As I have come to gribs with the many variables of shooting cast, the lead and its age, the same powder but a later lot, same type of primer but differant lot and brass changing with age is now acceptible and highly regular for me and I am ok with that! Wow, I am now enjoying this cast boolit thing since I got this off my chest!

[Whitespider]

I long ago came to terms with the fact that a couple of nice tight groups one day meant next to nothing on another.
I developed a way to test gun/load combinations that didn't rely on single 3 or 5 shot groups to give me warm, fuzzy feelings. I put two targets up, one directly over the top of another... after firing a 3 or 5 shot group I change only the top target. Say I fire 5 groups, of 5 shots each... I end up with 6 targets, five of them with a 5 shot group, and one with a 25 shot group. Believe me, the target with all 25 shots is a lot more relieving; even if all of the other 5 targets contain a MOA group, never does the backing target... it's usually about twice as big as the others.
*

[atr]

same here.....some days with a particular load I can't miss and the groups are tight....then same load different day not quiet so good
the "gods" are fickle:-?

[RobS]

Bullet lube can do this....humidity & temperature to name a few variables with lube and bore conditioning.

[Hardcast416taylor]

At my advanced age I also have accepted the "minute of elephant" size groups as being not that bad! Some days I can`t hit the broad side of a barn even if I`m inside the barn! Other days I can`t do anything wrong. In the last few years the broad sides of the barn are fairly safe.Robert

[62chevy]

Bullet lube can do this....humidity & temperature to name a few variables with lube and bore conditioning.

So you are taking me back to my drag racing days when temp humidity barometric pressure meant something. Back then it was easy to adjust a carb and tire pressure change the timing and what not but what you are suggesting is is 50 different loads depending on weather.

[WALLNUTT]

I've found consistency to be a better measure than ultimate accuracy on a given day. I sometimes shoot a small group with a load that does not always perform even satisfactory and some loads not so tight but always are pretty good and to the same POA.

[nekshot]

years ago when I first got into cast coming from shooting br in the seventies I took a marlin 30-30 and was fire lapping it. I knew the 50 yard groub was tight but after 9 rounds of the gritty boolits I walked over to the target and one hole about the size of a 35 cal. The next day I told my son I was gonna try this load again and shoot till it opened up. I put 17 boolits in the same hole and the 18 one I pulled the trigger ever so slightly and yes the groub now had a little clover on the one edge. I was elated! I have tried that since numerious times and never could get that marlin to repeat it, but in my heart it is the "most" accurate lever I have for cast! ha ha ha ignorance can feel god for a while!

[RobS]

So you are taking me back to my drag racing days when temp humidity barometric pressure meant something. Back then it was easy to adjust a carb and tire pressure change the timing and what not but what you are suggesting is is 50 different loads depending on weather.

I'm not suggesting 50 different loads due to weather differences but a lube can make some noted differences in accord to temperature and humidity. Most of the time a slight difference with a decent, proven lube, with different weather conditions but sometimes quite a bit of variation with other lubes or with large temperature swings (say 20-40 degrees to 80-100+ degrees).

[Bullshop]

Mediocrity in group size can easily be overcome by the simple means of using only one shot groups.

[RobS]

Mediocrity in group size can easily be overcome by the simple means of using only one shot groups.


:mrgreen::bigsmyl2:[smilie=l::goodpost:

Simple resolution!!! Had me about spill my coffee with my chuckle.

[62chevy]

I'm not suggesting 50 different loads due to weather differences but a lube can make some noted differences in accord to temperature and humidity. Most of the time a slight difference with a decent, proven lube, with different weather conditions but sometimes quite a bit of variation with other lubes or with large temperature swings (say 20-40 degrees to 80-100+ degrees).

I understand, a softer lube or one that doesn't freeze on cold days and slightly harder for hot days or at least doesn't run into the powder. This is what is so cool about casting your own you can get down to the finer details if one wants.

[Garyshome]

Too many variables with Me being the largest/worst.

[Bigslug]

For all things there is a purpose. A lot of times we lose sight of what that purpose is. I am not an exception to this.

When Pop and I were heavily involved in NRA Highpower competition, we initially applied A LOT of Benchrest techniques to our loading process. Ultimately, we decided that positional shooting was not Benchrest, and that ammo in the ballpark of 1/2 to 3/4 MOA was more than good enough for our 600Y prone efforts.

As we've drifted more into hunting, a lot of our loading techniques have followed us from Highpower. Yes, we do a pretty intricate load workup process with a chronograph. Yes, we try to get top end brass like Lapua or Norma when available. The difference is that we no longer start bedding stocks and adjusting screw torque because we're "only" managing 1.5 MOA.

It's easy to get so wrapped up in the engineering that you forget the mission that your product is intended for. Whitetails don't need quarter-minute rifles. Keep it real and keep your sanity.

[Artful]

I long ago came to terms with the fact that a couple of nice tight groups one day meant next to nothing on another.
I developed a way to test gun/load combinations that didn't rely on single 3 or 5 shot groups to give me warm, fuzzy feelings. I put two targets up, one directly over the top of another... after firing a 3 or 5 shot group I change only the top target. Say I fire 5 groups, of 5 shots each... I end up with 6 targets, five of them with a 5 shot group, and one with a 25 shot group. Believe me, the target with all 25 shots is a lot more relieving; even if all of the other 5 targets contain a MOA group, never does the backing target... it's usually about twice as big as the others.
*

Dang, you and I may be the only ones that do use that method - it was popular back in the 70's when it was published in Guns Digest but soon seemed to fall out of favor.

[fecmech]

Dang, you and I may be the only ones that do use that method - it was popular back in the 70's when it was published in Guns Digest but soon seemed to fall out of favor.

That's what I did a while back testing .357 and .38 spl loads. I set up a base target and move the paper behind it. An example was testing H&G #50@50yds. The composite for 24 shots was 3 3/8" and the 4 six shot group average was 2 1/2". I did the same thing with the .357 and 358429 at 50 yds. The 20 shot composite was 3" and the average of 4 five shot groups was 1.91". Anymore all I want is good accurate ammo with a minimum of fuss. I look at the bases when I cut the spru. If I see a defect then or while sizing or loading I toss it. Beyond that I just want to send lead down range and have fun. I did the competition thing back in the day, now it's just enjoyment.

[dverna]

I have to laugh when people post 3 shot groups or one five shot group. Silliest thing I have ever seen to "prove" you have an accurate load.

In most cases, that is the reason a "good load" shoots badly the next outing. Statistical profanity - oops I meant probability.

Don Verna

[Love Life]

Can I post targets? Hehehehe....

103304


But wait, there is more...

[butch2570]

J-words don't count L L, hehehe,[smilie=w: Joking, Dang Nice Group..

[Hardcast416taylor]

Back around the turn of the last century there was a reputed best shot in the entire state of Tennessee. When he was interviewed for a state newspaper about his phenomenal shooting he only had the following to say. "I shoot at a flat board or a fence post then I draw a bulls eye around the bullet hole"!Robert

[blikseme300]

Too many variables with Me being the largest/worst.

That's me. I have no problem blaming myself for poor shooting and enjoy the freedom this brings to the soul.

[trucker76]

Here's 10 of my 5 shot groups at 50' with my .45. Made me happy.

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/1965041_774660925879725_360803279_n.jpg

[Love Life]

For all things there is a purpose. A lot of times we lose sight of what that purpose is. I am not an exception to this.

When Pop and I were heavily involved in NRA Highpower competition, we initially applied A LOT of Benchrest techniques to our loading process. Ultimately, we decided that positional shooting was not Benchrest, and that ammo in the ballpark of 1/2 to 3/4 MOA was more than good enough for our 600Y prone efforts.

As we've drifted more into hunting, a lot of our loading techniques have followed us from Highpower. Yes, we do a pretty intricate load workup process with a chronograph. Yes, we try to get top end brass like Lapua or Norma when available. The difference is that we no longer start bedding stocks and adjusting screw torque because we're "only" managing 1.5 MOA.

It's easy to get so wrapped up in the engineering that you forget the mission that your product is intended for. Whitetails don't need quarter-minute rifles. Keep it real and keep your sanity.

^^^That post should be a sticky.

[StrawHat]

I, too, was bitten by the accuracy bug, but have lived to tell about it. I did everything I could to get the last .000x" from my rifle/load. I was consumned by it to the point shooting was no longer any fun. I quit. A couple of years later, I took a new approach. I strive for 3 moa and anything better is a bonus. This goal is for hunting rifles from field positions. I don't even do a whole lot of load development. Just enough to get me where I want to be.

[Whitespider]

I figure minute-of-beer can.

If I can consistently bounce the beer can, shooting without a rest, at whatever range... well heck, I'm having a blast. I prefer my revolvers, shooting off-hand, to hit minute-of-beer can at 50 yards, but I've come to grips with the reality that some are 25 yard revolvers... but to offset that, a couple are 75-yard revolvers. I use 35-yards as the minute-of-beer can benchmark for pistols, and 100-yards for rifles... some do better.

Some flat don't meet the benchmark, but rather than fret about it... I step a bit closer to the beer can.
It's fun to shoot beer cans, but only if you hit the beer cans... and beer can shooting should be fun.

My grandfather was a hunter, trapper, fisherman and a gun dealer... he sold guns back by the meat counter of his little general store in a tiny Iowa town. When he taught me to shoot with an open-sight .22 rifle (I was probably 5 years old) he lined a bunch of soup cans on a 2x4 about 10 feet in front of me. When I asked him how come so close, he said, "Boy, it ain't fun to miss... when you show me you can knock every can off that board without a miss, we'll back-up a couple steps." I've never forgot that lesson... he was right, it ain't fun to miss... and shooting for the pure pleasure of it necessarily means hitting what your lookin' at.
*

[Hickok]

I too have come to the realization that I cannot achieve perfection in shooting, as it does not exist. After I get a load that satisfies me, I quit bench shooting. Then the gun and load are used in field shooting practice, different positions, different ranges, learning to shoot in different wind conditions. This shooting is to gain experience in hunting varmints, and deer, in the many varying conditions that occur when pursuing these animals.

For me, burning a lot of rounds off a bench rest doesn't help me when I am varmint hunting or deer hunting. Shooting in the woods/field nets me valuable practice.

I read an article about Carlos Hathcock where his commanding officer (his name excapes me) stated that the 30/06 Model 70 target rifle Carlos used was a 2 minute of angle rifle due to wear and the quality of ammunition, but Carlos used it successfully to extreme range time and time again in Viet Nam.

Under real world field conditions, it didn't matter that the rifle Hathcock used was not a 1/2 minute grouping rifle off the bench, it still got the job done under real conditions.

I still believe in the first shot out of the barrel is the most important for me. The second, third, or fifth shot out of the barrel doesn't bring home the deer jerky.

Like Strawhat, I took accuracy to the point that it was taking all the fun out of my shooting. I now am back to realistic expectations and enjoying the efforts.

[Hickok]

For all things there is a purpose. A lot of times we lose sight of what that purpose is. I am not an exception to this.

When Pop and I were heavily involved in NRA Highpower competition, we initially applied A LOT of Benchrest techniques to our loading process. Ultimately, we decided that positional shooting was not Benchrest, and that ammo in the ballpark of 1/2 to 3/4 MOA was more than good enough for our 600Y prone efforts.

As we've drifted more into hunting, a lot of our loading techniques have followed us from Highpower. Yes, we do a pretty intricate load workup process with a chronograph. Yes, we try to get top end brass like Lapua or Norma when available. The difference is that we no longer start bedding stocks and adjusting screw torque because we're "only" managing 1.5 MOA.

It's easy to get so wrapped up in the engineering that you forget the mission that your product is intended for. Whitetails don't need quarter-minute rifles. Keep it real and keep your sanity.Real world truth!

[rhead]

I want the first shot from a cold barrel to hit close to the point of aim. Inside the sure kill zone of the appropriate game for that round.
I do not have any guns that i do not hunt something with.

[jonp]

Mediocrity in group size can easily be overcome by the simple means of using only one shot groups.
My thought exactly. Last weekend I loaded up some boolits from a new to me 454190 in my BH. Moved back 20 paces, took aim and my first shot hit the bullseye. I decided to quit with those loads right there and took my bike out.

I'm glad I'm not an anomoly. I read so much of guys spending hours tearing their hair out because they can't shrink a group that last 1/4 inch or can't get it under moa. I was always happy if I got a lever down to 2moa as long as it was consistant as 100yards was the longest shot I would ever take in my hunting area with 50 yrds being the norm. Everyone loves a tac driver but losing site of why I started reloding in the first place which is the rush of making my own ammo not having to go into a store and buy it. If I'm at hunting camp and run out of 357mag on a Sunday morn I don't have to stop shooting I can just load some more

[Love Life]

According to the internet, every rifle ever will shoot .25 MOA "If'n I do my part" all day every day...at any distance.

Are ya'll telling me that isn't true?

[Char-Gar]

The level of enjoyment/contentment we have in our casting, loading and shooting is determined by our expectations and definition of success. The fly in the ointment is we all to often allow others to determine our expectations. We read on this and other boards about folks who shoot these bug hole groups seemingly at will and we think we should also. Thus we set ourselves up for failure and unhappiness.

Now here is the dirty little secret: Most often folks only post/talk about their infrequent ghee-whiz groups. Their everyday shooting, slips into the sea of forgetfulness. Others are just plain blowing smoke, while some give an honest reporting of their shooting. We find all three of these types here, and we let the smoke blowers and amnesia victims set the bar for us.

The truth is, it is not very hard to get cast bullets to shoot as well or better than we can. My loading goal is load to the accuracy level that when I miss, it is my fault. I am content with that. My rifle and load must be capable of delivering more accuracy than I can use. As the years pass, this puts less and less demands on the rifle and load.

[Love Life]

You also have to ask yourself "Was my rifle a magical sub-MOA shooter with jacketed and me shooting it?"

A 2 inch jacketed shooting gun will probably never be a 1 inch cast shooting gun.

You're probably going to pay more than the wally world special price for a gun that will consistently shoot 1 MOA or better groups. I mean all day. Not that one time when nobody else was at the range.

I don't believe anyone is accepting mediocrity on this thread. People are accepting the limitations of the entire system (Caster, alloy, loading technique, gun quality, shooter).

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have written about this very phenomenon with respect to certain rifles like Mini 14's and other less than Benchrest guns many times here and sparked the debate.

I should preface this with the fact that in order to do justice to your hobby you should at least make an effort to do the best you possibly can. However just because you can't duplicate someone else's results doesn't necessarily mean that you suck either. And especially if the results you have achieved will satisfy your needs. Using what you learn here about loads and casting boolits will help you make the best possible ammunition you can, and you can improve on that by practicing more and more. The whole idea behind reloading is to shoot more, and the more you shoot the better you will get. Right?

I have to confess I get very bored with "Load Development, " and a perfect example is my RGS77 Scout Rifle. I have shot exactly 100 rounds of Federal American Eagle factory ammo (to get cases for reloading) and one jacketed bullet load and one cast boolit load.

The jacketed bullet load is Recycled 147 gr FMJBT M80 ball bullets over 45 gr of IMR 4895. This consistently yields 7/8 MOA groups. I see no reason to pursue this further because this gun is used mainly for Long Range Silhouette shoots and this load shoots better than I can hold offhand. Other loads are simply variables that I don't need. It is my "Standard Load" for that gun.

If I needed to shoot some kind of Long Range Sniper type match then I might try some 168 gr match kings or other premium bullets which realistically should shoot tighter than my existing loads, but until then I'm quite content with what I've got going as of now.

What I do,,, is some research in Magazine Articles and in Load Manuals before I pick a load. The calibers I shoot mainly have been shot to death in magazines. .308, .30-06, .44's and .223's even .45-70's. All of the boolits and bullets I shoot have been written about ad nauseum, and as a result I can usually pick a bullet/powder combination that works well the first time out. I get lucky a lot, simply because I read and re read these articles many times so that I understand what the writer was trying to achieve and learn as much about how he did it as possible.

I talk about reading and rereading technical articles many times,,, a lot. This is because very few people (and I don't know any) can read a text and learn everything contained in it the first time thru. It just don't happen!

THIS IS A VITAL PART OF DOING RESEARCH.

I got a load for my .308 with Cast Lyman 311299 GC and 21 gr of 5744 from an article by Mike Venturino. Only cast load I've tried in that gun. It is also listed in Lyman 49 as most accurate load for that boolit in the .308. That load shoots 1.5" @100 and I shot my best score ever in Cowboy Silhouette with my Scout rifle and that load @31/40. NO real need to experiment any further with that one, it works just fine. Time to move on.

I plan on using another one of his loads for my 03A3 .30-06 for the same game soon. It will be the same boolit with 25 gr of 5744, and is also listed in Lyman 49 as the most accurate load with that boolit. That gun has a Lyman 48 receiver sight on it, so if I see better than 2" I'll be jumping up and down.

Mike V has shot literally thousands of these boolits thru a variety of rifles with a variety of powders and charge weights and arrived at this particular load combination as the best all around load using these components. It is his "Standard Load."

In other words HE ALREADY DID THE LOAD DEVLOPMENT FOR ME!

I'm also reasonably sure he is better at it than me.

I have had similar results using Brian Pearce's articles as references, and both of these guys present "Accurate Empirical Results" so that others can follow them easily. "Empirical" means done in a very orderly and consistent manner so as to remove variables and achieve repeatable results. They actually want you to use their information so that you can be successful too.

The whole reason to subscribe to Handloader magazine is to benefit from these guys' experience and research, and any one of them will shoot more in one year than most of us shoot in a lifetime.

I am also not saying that you should just blindly do what these guys do. The purpose of following them is to "understand why" they are doing what they are doing so that you can spin that knowledge off and use it to your advantage.

In the end, if your main enjoyment from this hobby is to do load development, then knock yourself out. If your main enjoyment is derived from using what you have made to shoot either competitions, or to hunt, or just plain plink away at dirt clods, then finding something that works by doing a little research and then duplicating it probably will end up being more than good enough for what you want to do.

Sometimes good enough is good enough.

Randy

[Bent Ramrod]

Of course, when Col. (and I think he was a Major then) Whelen penned the immortal line "Only accurate rifles are interesting," an "accurate" rifle shot 2-1/2 MOA, a "gilt-edge" one did 1-1/4 MOA, and an under MOA group was a very sometime thing, which was kept for bragging and sometimes stood as a record for decades.

I have to say that though accurate rifles are interesting to me, they do not get more interesting the more accurate they are. Otherwise, I would have long since traded my collection for an unlimited railgun or a 6mm PPC.

I'm also influenced now by Col. Cooper's statement: "If it was half as accurate as it is, it would still be twice as accurate as it needs to be," and one of Mike Venturino's lines, which I can't remember exactly. It went something like: "I used to obsess over small groups. Now I'm much more interested in hitting things."

It's fun to see what a gun can do, but ultimately the issue is what I can do with it.

[Love Life]

Small groups=hitting things. True story.

[357maximum]

It's fun to see what a gun can do, but ultimately the issue is what I can do with it.


Small groups=hitting things. True story.

Well iffin you combine these two gents thoughts you will have my take on the matter.

The better the rifle shoots/groups the more leeway the HUMAN has for slight error. I strive to find the best CONSISTENT load for the rifle and try to do my best to use it after that. At 100 yards.....I will take a consistent and round grouping 1.0-1.5 inch gun/load over a gun/load that shoots a trapezoidal group 3/4 inch one day and 2 inches the next however. I never have understood the little clustered group shot with a rifle at 25 to 50 yards some people are so rampant/ready to picture....a 50yard group tells me nothing for 95% of my toys. A 100yard, 200, 250 yard group shot under good/normal/bad conditions will tell you alot more about what a deer hunter/ steel plate killer needs to know.

[Love Life]

I like to shoot 7 shot groups. I prefer flat groups over round groups.

It's all in the purpose of the gun. My hunting rifle will sho0t 1 to 1.5 inches at 100 yds, 2 1/2 to 3 inches at 200 yds, and 4 to 6 inches at 300 yds. It's minute of deer to 400 yds and that's fine since I don't even hunt anymore.

My Yugo I am happy to be at 3-4 MOA. 3-4 MOA translates to hits on other targets out to 400 yards.

I'm happy as a pig in doo doo when my boone stock bushmaster throws down 2 MOA groups with iron sights and pull down bullets at 100 yds. 2 MOA on the targets that gun was built for means hits out to 700 yds.

My ninjee rifle needs to be sub MOA. I sent it off to be touched up when it finally opened up to a consistent 1 inch rifle.

It truly all depends. I too find no use and for 50 yd groups and they hold no water for me.

[dtknowles]

I find 50 yard groups reasonable for pistol caliber carbines and handguns. I do not find mediocre groups acceptable but I don't stress if the groups are just good but not great. I had a time where I stressed because my groups were not as small as I expected and wondered if it was my shooting that was the problem. I bought a used bench rest rifle in 6mm PPC and proceeded to shoot many groups under a quarter MOA. I would not win any bench rest matches but at least now I know that if I get larger groups than I expect from a rifle it is the rifle or the ammo and not my bench rest technique. I wish we had a longer range locally, I would like to see how I would do shooting at 200 or 500 yards. I shoot more offhand and sitting than anyone else at the range but maybe they are sighting in or doing load development but I think they are just blasting away with factory ammo.

Tim

Tim

[fecmech]

My rifle and load must be capable of delivering more accuracy than I can use. As the years pass, this puts less and less demands on the rifle and load.
Amen to that

[M-Tecs]

I like to match the tool to the job at hand. When I shoot 1,000 yard F class anything less than ½” at 1,000 yards is not acceptable. My pre 64 Winchester 94 is a 3” to 4” MOA gun. That is more than adequate for 75 yard and under shots it is tasked with. I could rebarrel it with a Krieger get it to shoot under 1 MOA but would it do the task as a short range woods rifle any better?

Same for my prairie dog loads. Most of my PD rifles are capable of ¼” to 3/8” moa when feed the best ammo. The bulk of my PD shooting is with the 223. Normally 2K to 6K per year. If I do not sort brass and powder drop on the 650 or 1050 I still can hold ¾” moa. I could spend a lot more time sorting, weighing and case prepping my 223 ammo but I would never be able to detect the difference shooting PD under 350 yards. After 350 I switch to 22-250AI, 6mm Br, 6mm XC or 6.5 x 284 depending on yardage. When shooting PD’s at 600 yard I can easily detect the difference the between 3/8” moa ammo and ¾” ammo so the extra loading time is justified.

If the tool you are using gets the job done satisfactorily it may be good enough. If improving the tool gets the job done better it may not be good enough.

[olafhardt]

When I want to shoot a 1/2 inch group I grab my 500 S & W Handirifle. It delivers 1/2 inch one shot groups with every shot. This thread makes so much sense it should be stickiefied to counter act some of the less honest and more anal postings. I would give Venturino and Pearce more credit if they used more Lee reloading equipment. I take them with a grain of salt.

[kweidner]

I am a bit from the different camp on rifle load development particularly with j-words. If after exhaustive load development and modifications I can't get a rifle to shoot more like .75 moa or less then it gets anther home. I have had two that like to have gotten relocated that I finally made shoot. One was my encore system.

The modifications and serious load development turned the .280 bbl into a honest .75 MOA. gun. Sometimes it shoots 1/2 MOA but that is rare. The other was a hornet I inherited. That ruger I couldn't let go so I kept at it until I have a true 1/4 MOA load. Bedded, trigger, crown, and small pistol primers with a 35 gr hornady make it one of the most accurate squirrel guns I own.

All non shooting rifles have been relocated unless they were handed down. Only accurate rifles are interesting......I agree. I can honestly say ALL my modern rifles are shooters otherwise I would trade them or sell them. Life's too short to not have shooters. Granted very few rifles are stock and even more are semi custom or full blown builds ....either way I like shooting tiny groups. It is the former BR shooter in me.

I am having a .308 built currently. I have come to the conclusion over the years that I just do it all out from the beginning. Buy a Cooper, or by a donor action and build it. My smith GUARANTEES my guns to by .2 guns. That's why I use him and that's why I don't mess around with out of the box rifles much anymore. He has never let me down and his craftsmanship is un matched. We have known each other for years. He is a good friend and incredible craftsman.

His recent 300 build for his mile quest is jaw dropping accurate. I helped him get that bug and I do believe he is going to be able to whip me way out there if the 1000 yard groups are any indication.

[tazman]

The thought of shooting sub moa groups consistently and at long range is a nice thought but nothing except a fantasy for me. I could spend the rest of my life working towards that and never achieving it. I have too many "bugs" in my system to ever be that good.
I have seen excellent shots and I admire their skill.
Bench shooting for me is just a place to get the sights close enough so I can fine tune them sitting, kneeling, or leaning against a tree for hunting which is how I use my rifles.
Pistol shooting is even worse. With my eyes and unsteady hands, getting minute of soup can at 15 yards is probably all I will ever be good enough to do.
I still practice and work on technique, but I know my limitations.

[dtknowles]

I am a bit from the different camp on rifle load development particularly with j-words. If after exhaustive load development and modifications I can't get a rifle to shoot more like .75 moa or less then it gets anther home. I have had two that like to have gotten relocated that I finally made shoot. One was my encore system.

The modifications and serious load development turned the .280 bbl into a honest .75 MOA. gun. Sometimes it shoots 1/2 MOA but that is rare. The other was a hornet I inherited. That ruger I couldn't let go so I kept at it until I have a true 1/4 MOA load. Bedded, trigger, crown, and small pistol primers with a 35 gr hornady make it one of the most accurate squirrel guns I own.

All non shooting rifles have been relocated unless they were handed down. Only accurate rifles are interesting......I agree. I can honestly say ALL my modern rifles are shooters otherwise I would trade them or sell them. Life's too short to not have shooters. Granted very few rifles are stock and even more are semi custom or full blown builds ....either way I like shooting tiny groups. It is the former BR shooter in me.

I am having a .308 built currently. I have come to the conclusion over the years that I just do it all out from the beginning. Buy a Cooper, or by a donor action and build it. My smith GUARANTEES my guns to by .2 guns. That's why I use him and that's why I don't mess around with out of the box rifles much anymore. He has never let me down and his craftsmanship is un matched. We have known each other for years. He is a good friend and incredible craftsman.

His recent 300 build for his mile quest is jaw dropping accurate. I helped him get that bug and I do believe he is going to be able to whip me way out there if the 1000 yard groups are any indication.

What is a .280 bbl? What Ruger model is your .22 Hornet? Can you share the contact info of your Gunsmith, I would be curious to price a guaranteed .2 rifle, maybe PM me.

Tim

[dtknowles]

The thought of shooting sub moa groups consistently and at long range is a nice thought but nothing except a fantasy for me. I could spend the rest of my life working towards that and never achieving it. I have too many "bugs" in my system to ever be that good.
I have seen excellent shots and I admire their skill.
Bench shooting for me is just a place to get the sights close enough so I can fine tune them sitting, kneeling, or leaning against a tree for hunting which is how I use my rifles.
Pistol shooting is even worse. With my eyes and unsteady hands, getting minute of soup can at 15 yards is probably all I will ever be good enough to do.
I still practice and work on technique, but I know my limitations.

With my 6mm PPC bench rest rifle you could shoot well under MOA out to 200 yards, easily. That is if you can load good ammo and can find a calm day to shoot it. My bench rest and my technique is not all that refined, the hardest part is finding the target in the 40 power scope without resting my cheek on the stock. I shoot free recoil, the only things touching the gun are the front support, the rear bag, my right thumb on the back of the trigger guard and my trigger finger. I squeeze the rear bag to move the cross hairs. I think any half way decent rifleman can shoot under half a MOA with this rifle and my ammo (which beside neck turning and match bullets is nothing special). More special to me is a shooter who can consistently break clay pigeons at 100 yards shooting sitting or standing. I can do the 8 inch plate at our 100 yard range and it would not matter if the gun shoots half inch groups or one and a half inch groups.

Tim

[kweidner]

I know right. .280 remington barrell.The hornet is a 77/22 and honestly is lousy with anything but that 35gr hornady. I use 4227 and small pistol primers. I will pm you his contact info. He does it on the side now and is a machinist at a factory mill by day. I happened to catch him pretty caught up.

[jonp]

I guess its all in your expectations

[dtknowles]

I know right. .280 remington barrell.The hornet is a 77/22 and honestly is lousy with anything but that 35gr hornady. I use 4227 and small pistol primers. I will pm you his contact info. He does it on the side now and is a machinist at a factory mill by day. I happened to catch him pretty caught up.

I was guessing the .280 was a .280 Rem not many others. I have a Ruger #3 in 22 hornet that does its best with the 35 grain V-max but I use Lil Gun. I tried 4227 but it does not shoot under an inch with either but it will shoot cast into an inch and a half.

Tim

[Love Life]

I like guns that all you need to do to shoot sub MOA from Harris Bipods and your non firing hand is load your sorted bullets over splody powder and go shoot.

[kweidner]

Please understand not all my rifles came that way. It has taken decades to get my safe full of shooters. Many that went down the road would make very decent hunting rifles. I just like to know if the shot placement on the quarry was not perfect it was me and not my rig. it is a horrible expensive addiction to which there seems no end.
I also swage my own and have my own ammunition business on the side. load development for rifles is something I love as it is challenging, frustrating at times but rather rewarding. I like to make guns shoot and see it as a personal challenge. It took 2 years to find what that hornet liked. I have shot many dimes pasted to a target at 100 with that little rig just to prove a point.

My benchrest mentor that taught me to load was an incredible man. We would at the beginning of deer season take a papa smurf lunchbox filled with hand dies and components to the range and load for his PO ackley .222. With 2 pieces of brass, we would make small bugholes all range session while others were frustrated at their 4 inch groups. It was funny and taught me the importance of solid load development and shooting technique.
He and his friend were at the time number one and three or seven IIRC in the world many seasons aggregate for RBA and 50/50 when he was doing the rimfire game. He got tired of the centerfire stuff and went to rimfire awhile. I still can't shoot as good as either of them but it has been enlightening to say the least under their leadership.
True accuracy often costs a bunch of change but is very worth it IMHO. a correct built rig, and premium compenents, cutting no corners on load deveolopment and most rifles will shoot very respectable. I just have a higher cull rate than most I guess.

[dtknowles]

I like guns that all you need to do to shoot sub MOA from Harris Bipods and your non firing hand is load your sorted bullets over splody powder and go shoot.

Oh, I am so close to that that I can taste it. I have a SB2 Handirifle in .243 win, I am loading an 80 grain LRN w/GC and it is showing promise. I do shoot it with a Bipod same story with my Ruger #3 in 22 hornet. I never expected the Handi to shoot better than the #3 but it does. I guess I am going to have to sort my bullets and weigh my powder charges. What are you shooting?

Tim

[dtknowles]

I guess its all in your expectations

Yes, but some thing set those expectations. Me, I do not need to be the best but I have got to be more than just competent. I also like to do more with less, you know, not just buy my way to the top but to make it with maybe not the best equipment or most expensive ammo. Maybe use a gun that is sort of out of style and cast bullets.

Tim

[tazman]

More special to me is a shooter who can consistently break clay pigeons at 100 yards shooting sitting or standing.
Tim
About 15 years ago I got to see a young man home on leave from the service at a rifle match in Wyoming, Illinois. He was doing the timed fire sitting portion shooting at 200 meters using a match grade Springfield M1a. He fired a 10 shot group that measured less than 3 inches with peep sights.
I was thoroughly impressed.
No place around here within 100 miles that I know of, where you can get more than 200-300 yards to shoot. Most have only 100 yard ranges. The nearest place to get 200 is 60 miles away. Most farmers don't want anybody out there "throwing lead around" like that.

[sigep1764]

I shot 400 rounds of lead out of my new CZ75B today and kept everything in a six inch bullseye at 21 feet. It was fun, got to break in a new gun, and no leading whatsoever. If i can manage no leading and reliability everytime, I'm happy as a clam. That's a good day for me and this whole thing of reloading and casting and firing is my stress reliever. Why would i ever want to ruin that with a quest for rediculously tight groups that are likely not repeatable? I'm happy just making average holes.

[dtknowles]

About 15 years ago I got to see a young man home on leave from the service at a rifle match in Wyoming, Illinois. He was doing the timed fire sitting portion shooting at 200 meters using a match grade Springfield M1a. He fired a 10 shot group that measured less than 3 inches with peep sights.
I was thoroughly impressed.

Now that's what I am talking about. 10 clay pigeons in a row, sitting, I would be impressed if it was only 100 yards. I want to be able to do that. I have to load a lot more ammo for practice :-). oh, and I am going to use a scope.

Tim

[tazman]

I shot 400 rounds of lead out of my new CZ75B today and kept everything in a six inch bullseye at 21 feet. It was fun, got to break in a new gun, and no leading whatsoever. If i can manage no leading and reliability everytime, I'm happy as a clam. That's a good day for me and this whole thing of reloading and casting and firing is my stress reliever. Why would i ever want to ruin that with a quest for rediculously tight groups that are likely not repeatable? I'm happy just making average holes.

I like that attitude.

[M-Tecs]

When I want to shoot a 1/2 inch group I grab my 500 S & W Handirifle. It delivers 1/2 inch one shot groups with every shot. This thread makes so much sense it should be stickiefied to counter act some of the less honest and more anal postings. I would give Venturino and Pearce more credit if they used more Lee reloading equipment. I take them with a grain of salt.

A one shot group is zero since groups are measured center to center.

[M-Tecs]

About 15 years ago I got to see a young man home on leave from the service at a rifle match in Wyoming, Illinois. He was doing the timed fire sitting portion shooting at 200 meters using a match grade Springfield M1a. He fired a 10 shot group that measured less than 3 inches with peep sights.
I was thoroughly impressed.
No place around here within 100 miles that I know of, where you can get more than 200-300 yards to shoot. Most have only 100 yard ranges. The nearest place to get 200 is 60 miles away. Most farmers don't want anybody out there "throwing lead around" like that.

When I was shooting NRA Service rifle seriously I was averaging 99 1/2% for sitting rapids (200 yards) over a three year period. Lots of three inches 10 shot groups with an M-14. Thing was I was only in the top 25% overall. I shot setting rapids in the top 10 % but my standing and 600 yard dropped me some. Never did shoot standing very well and my vision was never good enough to be really good a 600 with a service rifle. I could read the wind well enough but elevation issues due to vision was a problem. Seems impressive until you start running with the big dogs. I won some state and regionals and did well at the All Guards and the Nationals but I never made it past the medium dog category.

Seeing what the big dog can do is a humbling experience!!!!!!!!!!

[Love Life]

Seems impressive until you start running with the big dogs.

Troof.

[220]

I like to match the tool to the job at hand. When I shoot 1,000 yard F class anything less than ½” at 1,000 yards is not acceptable. My pre 64 Winchester 94 is a 3” to 4” MOA gun. That is more than adequate for 75 yard and under shots it is tasked with. I could rebarrel it with a Krieger get it to shoot under 1 MOA but would it do the task as a short range woods rifle any better?


I'm with you, all I want is enough accuracy to get the job done, it might be 1/2moa or it might be 6moa.
Only have one rifle I would class as a sub moa rifle, with J-words I can pull it out and be certain it will print a 5 shot group under 1moa at any range up to 400 and more than likely 1/2 moa. It only gets used for long range varminting and preditor control. Under 250y I don't need the accuracy.
Every other rifle I have has shot moa group but only one other comes close to being classed as moa rifle.
When I decided I was going to hunt deer with BP in 45/70 I was happy with 5" groups at 100y because it was enough to get the job done and I knew I would more than likely be shooting less than half that distance.
With pistols Im happy with a load that will shoot 10 shots into 2" at 25m, I struggle to do much better than that shooting off a bench and standing probably double that.

[rhead]

I enjoy buying a rifle that someone else sold because they could not get it to shoot well, and then trying to get it to be at least usable. Several months ago my wife called me about a Handi rifle in.223 at a garage sale. The owner said it would not shoot worth a ****. Six plus inch groups with factory ammo. He wanted $75 for it. I told her to pay him and I would come pick it up. (She deliverers mail and firearms in her vehicle are a no-no.)

The fore end bolt was tightened down all the way. hard to break loose type tight. I wafer floated the barrel and the fore end with a rubber washer and started feeling around with the torque on the bolt. It took thirty shots to find the sweet spot and it was shooting just under two inches. With a hand load that it liked it was more like a an inch and a half.

That one was boring.

[MBTcustom]

Can I post targets? Hehehehe....

103304


But wait, there is more...

Very nice. Shes in good form eh?

[rintinglen]

The best shooting I ever heard tell of was done on a keyboard.

These days, I shoot for fun, using peep sighted lever actions. I laugh out loud sometimes at the claims I see made for various "Ole Betsies".

[Love Life]

Very nice. Shes in good form eh?

She is in magnificent form. During load development it was hard to shoot over 3/4 MOA. That is a random load I picked to zero, verify zero, and the bottom of my load development. That is 9 shots in that hole. I may just adjust seating depth up and down and roll with that load. Typical of the .243 there was a middle and high node.

[Whitespider]

The best shooting I ever heard tell of was done on a keyboard.

:drinks: