How to get the groups thighter?

[jayjay1]

Hello guys,
I´m casting actually three pistol calibers.

With the .45 ACP I had very good sucess, nice groups all the way.
But I hadn´t with the 9mm Luger and the .40 S&W.

So, is it possible that those pistols just don´t like the bullets (profile and weight) or might there be something else wrong.

In 9mm Luger I do have a CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow and am using an MP molds 145gr. RNFP bullet, trying to get it to 940fps.
In .40 S&W the accelerator is a CZ Tactical Sport and am using a Lyman 175gr. TC bullet, trying to get it to 1.000fps.

Bullet hardness is at 15 BHN, no leading in the 9mm, just a little bit in the .40 S&W.

Best groupings in both combos where at about 5" at 25yds., having tried different powders and OALs.
I´m using mostly faster powders, but have tried Accurate No.5 and VV N350 too, with no better results.

The goal is to get 2" or less.

Is it possible, that I´m just had bad luck with the wrong bullets for those pistols or am I doing something wrong?

How can I find that out?


I stuck in this and need help to get ahead.
:cry:

[LAH]

Look forward to the replies. I have a CZ75 and use the Redding 928. My groups aren't like my sixguns but it's probably me.

[Jupiter7]

Are you using the "plunk test" to figure OAL?
Are you using a chronograph?
Have you considered softer alloy?
Why the requirements of velocity, power factor?

[nicholst55]

Just tighten the 'group' screw. Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm interested in what members have to say, because I'm considering buying yet another .40 S&W to play with. I've had two, but lost interest in both pretty quickly.

[bobthenailer]

The 45 acp is the easyest of your trio to get good accuracy !
Use the same headstamp brass , size boolets @ .357 dia even if the bore mikes at .355 dia for larger bores use a larger boolet possibley up to .359 dia. i have usually gotten my best accuracy with med fast to med burning speed powders . WAP, WSF, Power pistol, Herco & HS6 ect.
I have no experince with the 40s&w.

[jayjay1]

Are you using the "plunk test" to figure OAL?

If that means what I know as "drop test", then yessir!

Are you using a chronograph?

Yes, I do.

Have you considered softer alloy?

Not yet. Do you think that will make it better?
Then I will give it a try.


Why the requirements of velocity, power factor?



For IPSC.
I need a PF of 130 in 9mm and a PF of 175 in .40 S&W, therefore are the named velocities.

[jayjay1]

Just tighten the 'group' screw. Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm interested in what members have to say, because I'm considering buying yet another .40 S&W to play with. I've had two, but lost interest in both pretty quickly.

Would you please tell me / us why?
Didn´t it work?

And which were they?
Pistol?

[jayjay1]

Use the same headstamp brass , size boolets @ .357 dia even if the bore mikes at .355 dia for larger bores use a larger boolet possibley up to .359 dia. i have usually gotten my best accuracy with med fast to med burning speed powders . WAP, WSF, Power pistol, Herco & HS6 ect.
I have no experince with the 40s&w.

In 9mm, the bore is .355" and I size´em at .356", hm.

Used powders are WST, AA#2, Titegroup, AA#5 and VV N350.

[jayjay1]

Look forward to the replies. I have a CZ75 and use the Redding 928. My groups aren't like my sixguns but it's probably me.

How are your groups sized with this combo?

Did you ever shoot them from a bench?

[gray wolf]

In order to find the most accurate load for a given pistol, my finding are you must shoot off a sand bag to establish best accuracy and you must use the bags correctly, just resting your wrist on top of the bag is not the best approach. I am not talking about POA Versus POI just accuracy. When you are confident you can shoot well enough from a sand bag rest and call your flyers, then you have to try varied powder weights, and different powder. If the best accuracy is not up to your power factor that's just the way it is and you need to move on with different powder and repeat the test. Most of all this depends on the shooters capabilities and allowing that good reloading principals have been followed.

Picking a powder and trying one load is the worst way to get the best accuracy from and gun.
JMHO

[LAH]

I'm using 3.3 grs. of Promo. Groups are about 4" but I'm learning this platform so things should improve as I do. Those are 25 yard bench groups.

[deepwater]

I agree with gray wolf.
For semi autos, changing OAL is limited to reliable feeding. Start with a shorter OAL.
I would load up 5 rounds each with various powders at 70% max. for each powder. Take the top 2 or 3 groups/powder and then work each of those powders towards max. Best accuracy is "usually" just below max. (Comfort and recoil may be a limiting factor, which will effect accuracy over the course of a match. ) Once the best powder/load is found then play with longer OAL until feeding reliability is an issue, then shorten OAL for positive reliability.

For IPSC I would think heavier, slower round nose bullets would be best. Lighter faster would have more "sting" in the recoil.

deepwater

[jayjay1]

I don´t have a shooting issue and no function probs.
I´m only struggling for better accuracy.

I did different powders and different charges with this powders.
I have used pretty fast and slower powders (like written above).

What I do is measuring the max. OAL and then take away 0,1mm, that´s my OAL, when there are no malfunctions (because the CZ´s do have short chambers anyways).
After having fixed this, I start to load with min. charges, going over the chrono till I have my needed factor ("load ladder"), not more but never less.
I prefer faster powders with heavier bullets for less recoil.

So I normally don´t have a loading issue too (been loading for some years), but might have a "casting issue" because I´m pretty new to casting my own bullets.

But what I do know for sure, is that sometimes a bullet just doesn´t work with a gun.
Even if the bullet weight and the barrel twist rate should work together.

Lead to hard, like Jupiter7 said?
What lead hardness do you guys use for 9mm and .40 S&W?

Bullet just doesn´t work with gun?
What else?

[LAH]

I'm using 10-12 BHN & carnuba red lube.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/38-147-RN/DSC05407.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/Creekerpics/media/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/38-147-RN/DSC05407.jpg.html)

[Ed_Shot]

I have a 9MM CZ 75B, granted it has been tuned by CZ Custom, but like any other weapon it shoots better with some loads than others and I've tried a bunch of variations. I size to .358 with WL 2500+ lube. My absolute favorite is Lyman 358242 (120), OAL 1.065, over Blue Dot 6.0 @ 1075 fps. Second choice is the Lee 356-125-2R, OAL 1.055, over Promo 3.8 @ 1075 fps. If I'm not shakey they will make one ragged hole.

I can't yet make my Glock 22 (w/LW barrel) shoot like the CZ but right now I seem to do best with the Lyman 401043 over Promo 4.0 @ 980 fps or Lyman 401654 over Promo 4.2 @ 1000 fps. A work in progress.

[dragon813gt]

What MP mold are you using? I wasn't aware he made one that drops 145 grain bullets.

[jayjay1]

http://mp-molds.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=19&=SID

Well, it is like this, but throws at about 145gr..
He had one left, when I asked him for heavy bullets in the 9mm.

[jayjay1]

Carnuba red lube?

[jayjay1]

I size to .358 with WL 2500+ lube. My absolute favorite is Lyman 358242 (120), OAL 1.065, over Blue Dot 6.0 @ 1075 fps. Second choice is the Lee 356-125-2R, OAL 1.055, over Promo 3.8 @ 1075 fps. If I'm not shakey they will make one ragged hole.


You are sizing pretty big.

My barrel is .355, shouldn´t I size then to .356?

I will check those molds out.

[LAH]

Carnuba red lube?

Lars45 does this lube. Great stuff. I think you can find him in the Vendor Sponsor Section.

[SOFMatchstaff]

My CZ75B SA has a .3568 barrel, and the thing will shoot fair with .356 plated and really good with a .3575 RNL. My Hi Powers are another story, bores run .356 to .359, and wont keep any where near the CZ's level. I found some 125gr ball .357dia and it helped a Bunch. Shoot for accuracy first, power factor be darned.

My .40 is just not in the same league with the 45's or the CZ in 9mm , no use for it..

My three pt Mic is very accurate in determining the bore dia from a slug, it is sometimes a pain to get it right with a std Mic. Be gentle when taking the measurement as the lead will deform under the anvils pressure and throw off the reading up to .0005. that has bit me in the bumm more than once....

[Ed_Shot]

You are sizing pretty big.

My barrel is .355, shouldn´t I size then to .356?

I will check those molds out.

I load for my CZ a Browning HP, a G17 and two G22's with 9MM LW conversion barrels. All were shooting fine with boolits sized to .357 and when I started sizing .358 we saw zero difference.... fine accuracy and no leading.

[dtknowles]

I have not been able to get any of my centerfire pistols to shoot groups that even average under 2 inches at 25 yards. My Dan Wesson Revolvers and my Ruger MK II's do that with the right ammo, so I know that it is not my shooting that is totally the issue it is the pistols. I think it is rare for a stock centerfire pistol to shoot under 2 inches.

I don't have a 45 or a 40 but I have a few 9mm's a 380 and a CZ-52 in 7.62 x 25mm. I got a EEA Witness match in 9mm hoping for the under 2 inch groups and am still working to get there. It is used and I hope the previous owner did not sell it because it would not shoot but I am having issues. I think you just have to play with all the variables. I think OAL is one of the keys.

Tim

[jayjay1]

1. My Shadow shoots groups from a sandback on a bench that are roundabout 2" with the cheapest factory ammo (S&B 124gr. bulk pack, 5 shots on 25 meters).
With my .40 I have never shot factory ammo, but am able to do groupings from 2,5" with LOS bullets RNFP 180gr. and Green Dot.

2. You guys got me somehow with the diameter.
My Shadow meters .355XXX" and I´m sizing the bullets to .356 and my TS meters .40XXX" and so I´m sizing to .401.
Maybe I should go +0,001" each to .357 and .402?

Tricky with the .40, because the Lyman mold doesn´t drop that big I guess.
When I size the 40-175grainers to .401" they are mostly not hidden by the sizer everywhere.

:confused:
Hm, I think I should pull out some seated and "crimped" (just tappered) bullets out of their cases and measure them to compare them with the barrelprints I have made.

[jayjay1]

I have not been able to get any of my centerfire pistols to shoot groups that even average under 2 inches at 25 yards.

I think you just have to play with all the variables. I think OAL is one of the keys.

Tim

Well, like writen above, my Shadow does and my TS is close to.

There is not much space to play with the OAL, because of the pretty short chambers all CZs unfortunately have.
I do max. length which is possible, what means that it is short.
I only could shorten it more.

I think in the first step i will try to do something with the dia size and then look further.

[44man]

It is the gun and fit of parts. Most are just close range carry guns with no regard for accuracy. The 1911 can be taken to extreme accuracy with fit. I have built up some that shot 1/2" at 50 yards but the most accurate nine I ever shot was a WWII German pistol. I can't remember what it was but it showed me the gun counts.
Most close range guns are rattle traps. Barrels do not index the same from shot to shot.

[RobS]

if you haven't read this is a good sticky:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Have you ever pulled a boolit to check the very edge of the base of the boolit? Often times loading will swage down on the boolit and your .356 boolit is no longer as such. I tell people to try and size .002-.003 larger in the 9mm if they will reliably cycle.

[jayjay1]

First of all, this support inhere is absolutely great!

Great Forum, I appreciate this very much, thank you all a lot!



It is the gun and fit of parts. ...

Like I have written before, they do groupings of roundabout 2-2,5" at 25 meters with other ammo (factory or plated bullets).
I would be happy with 3" with my casted bullets.

Might it have been a C96 Mauser or a Pistole 08 Luger?
They are wellknown over here for their really good accuracy, even better in 7,63x25.

[jayjay1]

if you haven't read this is a good sticky:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Have you ever pulled a boolit to check the very edge of the base of the boolit? Often times loading will swage down on the boolit and your .356 boolit is no longer as such. I tell people to try and size .002-.003 larger in the 9mm if they will reliably cycle.


I have read this sticky and just read it again.

The .002 or .003" larger might be an issue, if that is needed.

Is this because of the higher velocity?
If so, it might be the same game with the .40 S&W, which is in the same velocity range.

I measured both pistols and bullets out, hoping that you guys may see a chance to do something better.

What I found out is, that both bullets are wider at the front (shoulder) and smaller at the end (bottom).
Just a little bit, but they are.

First the 9mm:
Bore dia. is 0,3547"
Bullet (front) is 0,3571"
Bullet (end) is 0,3567"
Bullet average is 0,3569"

Should I go bigger here?

[jayjay1]

Separated the .40 because it is a different story for some reason.

I found out, that the bullets are not round, so that there are not only wider dias at the front, no, unfortunately they vary at each bullet.

Bore dia. is 0,4004"
Bullet front max. is 0,4019" / min. is 0,4008"
Bullet end max. is 0,4016" / min. is 0,4004"

[petroid]

What alloy are you using? If you're getting uneven casts, you may not be getting good mold fillout. Also, are your boolits frosted at all? If so, your alloy is too hot and the boolits will drop smaller than they should. Try casting cooler and with a little tin if you haven't added any or don't have any already in the alloy. Make sure your expander is doing its job. Most expanders are made for jacketed bullets and don't adequately expand for cast boolits especially in 9mm and 40 which are high pressure rounds with thick brass which will swage the boolits down when seated. There's always powder coating...

[44man]

First of all, this support inhere is absolutely great!

Great Forum, I appreciate this very much, thank you all a lot!




Like I have written before, they do groupings of roundabout 2-2,5" at 25 meters with other ammo (factory or plated bullets).
I would be happy with 3" with my casted bullets.

Might it have been a C96 Mauser or a Pistole 08 Luger?
They are wellknown over here for their really good accuracy, even better in 7,63x25.
It was not a Luger. That I am sure of but I just can't remember the gun. I have shot the Luger and it was better then what we buy now.

[jayjay1]

What alloy are you using? If you're getting uneven casts, you may not be getting good mold fillout. Also, are your boolits frosted at all? If so, your alloy is too hot and the boolits will drop smaller than they should. Try casting cooler and with a little tin if you haven't added any or don't have any already in the alloy. Make sure your expander is doing its job. Most expanders are made for jacketed bullets and don't adequately expand for cast boolits especially in 9mm and 40 which are high pressure rounds with thick brass which will swage the boolits down when seated. There's always powder coating...

I use 4 parts range scrap with one part linotype, so tin and antimony is added, BHN round about 15.

No, my bullets aren´t frosted and the melt isn´t to hot, but to cool may be sometimes.

Which expaner would you recommend?
I´m loading in a Dillon 550, with the powder expanders in there (9 and 40).

What do you mean with "powder coating"?

[jayjay1]

As you´ve seen my measurements:
should I go bigger with the sizing?

How deep do you press your bullet in the sizer die?

I´m using a LAM II, with Lyman or RCBS dies.
I´m just pressing the bullets deep enough in, to get the bullet lubed.

When I did press the bullets deeper, there was always a little lube on top.

[petroid]

You can't size bullets bigger than they are cast. You may be able to lap the mold out a bit. Seat a bullet and pull it and measure it to make sure it isn't bring swaged down by the brass. If its smaller when puller you need an expander that will expand more and deeper to prevent this. Undersized boolits not only will lead the barrel but will skid in the rifling

[petroid]

Lots of info on powder coating in the coatings section. It will help an undersized boolit fit better among other things

[RobS]

I have read this sticky and just read it again.

The .002 or .003" larger might be an issue, if that is needed.

Is this because of the higher velocity? Not not necessarily, it's about the case squeezing down the boolit base in the reloading process and also about the nature of the 9mm operating at higher pressures
If so, it might be the same game with the .40 S&W, which is in the same velocity range. yes and no the web of the case on a 40 S&W case isn't as "tough" on the base of a boolit at normal seating depths vs the 9mm case. Again it's similar to the 9mm as the 40 S&W operates at a higher pressure.

I measured both pistols and bullets out, hoping that you guys may see a chance to do something better.

What I found out is, that both bullets are wider at the front (shoulder) and smaller at the end (bottom).
Just a little bit, but they are.

First the 9mm:
Bore dia. is 0,3547"
Bullet (front) is 0,3571"
Bullet (end) is 0,3567" Are these two measurements (front)(end) front drive band and base and are these measurements from a pulled boolit or as cast/sized???
Bullet average is 0,3569"

Should I go bigger here?

...............

[jayjay1]

...............

Yes, front drive band and base drive band.

The measurements are from the sized bullets (not pulled).

[TheDoctor]

Not sure where you are in Germany, but you may try to hook up with some of the members here who live there. He hasn't been on in a while, but might try to get in touch with Wiederlader. He also has a youtube channel. Also, a couple of members from this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?154471-Greetings-from-good-old-Germany&highlight=wieder Ok, that thread appears to only have one guy, schraubermani.

[RobS]

Yes, front drive band and base drive band.

The measurements are from the sized bullets (not pulled).

You should pull a loaded round..........you may be surprised. A good lube can mask a slightly undersized bullet leaving little to no leading.

[jayjay1]

All right, my lube is selfmade after a very common receipe over here:
70% bee´s wax, 30% waterfree wool fat, a spoon of floor wax and a spoon of roller-bearing grease (with lithium).
This lube is very soft and seems to work good, as far as I see, having some liquid lube at the barrel´s end after a couple of shots.

I will seat and pull some bullets in 9mm and .40" next!
That´s a very good advice I suppose!

But then, next question, can I get some other expanders for my powder-die with the Dillon 550?

And if so, what should the dia. of this expander be in relation to the bullet?
Same dia., a little bit smaller?


Thanks for helping me again.

[jayjay1]

So, now I´ve measured my expanders and pulled some bullets.

I hope you guys can tell me something about the results.

9mm caliber

expander dia. 0,353"
bullet (front) 0,3555" (I´ve noticed, that my crimp might be a little bit to much and turned it back)
bullet (end) 0,3567"

.40 caliber

expander dia. 0,396"
bullet (front/"shoulder") 0,4016 to 0,400" (from max to min dia)
bullet (end/"bottom") 0,4012 to 0,3992" (again from max to min dia)



I think, that Lyman´s .40 mold isn´t justified properly.
The bullets have little edges on both sides where the two halfs of the mold meet together, so the bullet is a little bit offset.

[jayjay1]

Ok,
so, does anybody inhere know an adress where I can get expanders for the Dillon 550 with different diameters?

That would be really great to get my .40s run.


Cheers,
Jay

[bobthenailer]

Ok,
so, does anybody inhere know an adress where I can get expanders for the Dillon 550 with different diameters?

That would be really great to get my .40s run.


Cheers,
Jay

what i have done is get the next larger expander and have a machinest friend turn it down to my desired dia.

[jayjay1]

Dang!!!
That´s a very good idea!

What is the next powder funnel above the .40"/10mm?

I found "H"41handgun, mine must be the "W"40/10mmhandgun.
Will the "H" be the same length etc, as the "W"?

Both are so called "handgun" funnels.


P.S.:
Have sent an email to Dillon.
:)

[Old Caster]

RobS has been right on track. Another thing to consider is how quickly the 9mm case gets thicker as you go down the throat and this varies between manufacturers. If you go too deep you can swage the bullet more at the back than you do at the front. The 40 might be in the same category and you need a mic that will measure neck thickness to be sure. I ran into this same problem loading 32 ACP for a Pardini Bullseye gun. It is all but impossible to measure but it may be that where the brass gets thicker and tapers in, it is not even all the way around, which will cause the bullet to tip a bit when seated against it, and is not easily visible to the eye, and can cause inaccuracies.

[jayjay1]

I will let the .40 out for the moment.

The 9mm, which casts pretty wide and round bullets, seems to be easier fixed, so I will figure this one out first.

Pulled another bullet through the barrel and measured now .3555", sorry, I think I did it wrong in the first.
My sizing die has .356", what seems to less now for me.
The small dia. in combo with the hard lead seems to be the problem.

Ordered me a .357" die now and will cast some bullets with less hardness.

[Old Caster]

You are between a rock and a hard place trying to do this. A harder bullet will not swage down so badly and a softer bullet is more forgiving.

[jayjay1]

Well, I´m having 18BHN, what seems to hard to me.

Isn´t it?

[Old Caster]

I doubt if you can swage that bullet down with a case. A bullet in the range of 9 or so BHN will likely shoot more accurately at those velocities but a bullet that soft will swage down so you have the choice of shooting the harder bullet, (18BHN) or getting a case expander so you can expand the cases and not swage down the softer bullet. This gets tricky with the 9 mm case because it gets thicker not very far down in the case and where it gets thicker it will not want to expand without bulging the case. Also depending on the gun, expanding the case might make them stick in the chamber or not feed correctly.

You can spend a lot of time and effort trying to get a lead bullet to shoot well in a 9 mm pistol. Several of the guys in my Bullseye group have spent many hours trying to get a 92FS that has been accurized to shoot lead bullets well and they are still messing with it, however they aren't going to be happy until they can shoot 10 shots at 50 yards in less than 2 inches because they can do it with a 45.

[jayjay1]

I´ve heard that elsewhere, that the 9mm Luger is hard to become accurate with cast bullets.

However, my Nine does group very accurate with some bought coated bullets in 153gr.!
With a fast powder it shoots dang smooth too, with this bullet.

Thanks for your experiences so far.
I will wait to get the .357" sizing die and then simply try both, the 18BHN and somewhat softer bullets.

I wrote an email to Dillon, because of expander dies and wait for an answer.

[Old Caster]

I don't think Dillon will have much of an answer for this basically because what you are looking for will be for all practical purposes a special item. For one thing, it will have to be made to the diameter you want and also the next question is how deep do you want it to go in the case before it flares the neck for bullet seating. For this kind of thing I would use two dies to start with. One to swage the case out to as large as you want it and the other to flare the case. That way you can vary how deep you are going in the case without having to go deep enough for the flare to work.

Your two easiest options are 1. See if you can come up with a 38 expander because this may be big enough.

2. Get someone to go from scratch and make you one the size you want or get a Dillon expander that is big enough that just the front part can be turned in a lathe to what you want.

You might want to start about .001 bigger than you think is right because it is pretty simple to spin the expander somehow to take another .0005 off each side to get back down the .001 or even more. Just use pretty fine sandpaper and something flat so it stays pretty square. Also be careful because that is not much metal.

[jayjay1]

Thanks Sir, that are good advices.

I appreciate that very much.

Best regard,
Jay

[garym1a2]

I size 9mm to .357,
I size 40cal to .401 and get good accuracy with it, I only load 40s&W (175grTC) to minor though with Bullseye powder.


You are sizing pretty big.

My barrel is .355, shouldn´t I size then to .356?

I will check those molds out.