Fast twist barrel liner for Renegade

[drago9900]

I was wondering if anyone knows of a .451, 1 in 21 twist liner to put in a renegade barrel. I was thinking of a cheap Gibbs long range rifle. I also have a Great plains I could use and thought the Renegade would be better for the recoil although I never had a problem with the GPR on recoil. I want to try long distance shooting and thought it might be a way to see how I would like it before I spent the big money on a nicer rifle. I will also want a platinum nipple. I am looking for information and suggestions if you have experiences to share, or just tell me if it's crazy.

[Nobade]

TJ's liners makes what you want. You can buy them from him direct or through Track Of The Wolf. They are 5/8 OD IIRC, so you will need to have a way to drill out the original barrel. When you pull the breech plug, you can examine it with an eye to matching the size of the chamber in it to the new bore. Also examine the length of the threads, and when you fit everything back up it is your chance to do it right, quite unlike the way TC normally did them. You may find you want a new patent breech so everything can be fitted correctly. (square shoulder in the bottom of the hole and on the end of the breech plug. Both inside and outside surfaces shouldering up at the same time. If that's not possible, the inside shoulder must be the one to touch first. This is important with all muzzleloading barrels but doubly so with a bullet firing one since the pressures are much higher.)

You may also like to look at the Mag-Spark. Uses 209 primers instead of percussion caps, and handles pressure quite well.

-Nobade

[johnson1942]

of course it isnt crazy. the barrel is 26 inches and you would do better with a new barrel. i did what you want with my renagade. i put a 36 inch .45 1/18 twist douglas barrel on mine and it drives tacks at any range. for cost and perfect conversion try the oregon barrel co. as they have made 2 barrels for me and they were spec. perfect. they could put the barrel on your renagade, under ribs and pipes and all. you wont be out what a new gibbs cost but it will cost some. the renagade stock, lock and trigger are a good structure to start with. a rancher friend stopped by the other day and fell in love with mine. wants me to bring it over real soon and he is going to set up a 5 gallon pail at 500 yards on a hill behind his house and want to blast away at it. look a idaho rons post and pictures as he has one like you want and does real well with it. i bet their are a lot more rebarreled renagades out their. if your really set on a liner call taylor in wash state and check his posts on cast bollits, he does that kind of work. norm johnson at high plains at turtle lake n. dak. does that kind of work also. i think both of them cut good barrels also. let us know how it turns out. the long range sights will probably cost more than the barrel work. its a lot of fun in shooting what you have thought of.

[drago9900]

Well after I posted I saw there could be issues with a liner on this type of use. I.E. - movement of the liner with these pressures or perfect fit with the epoxy glue. Looks like a new barrel is best. How do the Oregon 30 inch barrels compare to the 36 inch barrel? A drop in would be nice, but if I'm spending the money I'd rather do it only once. Good sights are probably as much or more than the barrel.

[johnson1942]

if you want a hunting gun that shoots real good, a 30 inch barrel is great and you can do some long distance shooting with it. if your real serious with the longdistance shooting, then the 36 inch barrel. mine is 36 inches and it mainly used for hunting. i like long barrels. less recoil and noise when it goes off, and i dont find a 1 inch diam barrel that is 36 inches long offensive to carry hunting. steady when you aim it also.

[Nobade]

Johnson1942, do you know what Oregon Barrel Co. makes their barrels out of? I have their catalog here but nowhere does it mention what steel they are.

-Nobade

[Good Cheer]

And by the way, why isn't anybody shooting a .52, paper patching the off-the-shelf .50 rifle molds?
Then again, maybe folks are and I don't know about it! But I'd love to have an inch and a eighth at the breech tapered out about three feet.

Another by the way, my relined TC is a lefty New Englander with .458 bore diameter to allow loading as-cast .458 rifle molds. It works. The 26" barrel isn't for long range but what I wanted is a kill anything hunting rifle for the woods. I'll never wash 45-70 brass again.

[idahoron]

I have been trying to get guys with .52's to try paper patching them. Ron

[johnson1942]

norade, i was told they use leaded steel for the muzzleloader barrels. the two i have really shoots good and i find no falt in them. when you tell them a .50 barrel, that is what it is. it is a perfect .50 barrel. the same with the .45 barrel. not even a fraction of a thouands over. they told me that the reason they use leaded steel for muzzle loaders is that if some one forgets to put the ball on the powder it will only bulge and not split like modern steel. i think they would do a modern steel barrel if thats what you want. their are no tight spots in their barrels, any ways the two i have dont have any tight spots. . if you want a perfect buttoned barrel douglas sure makes a good barrel. why not patch a .52. if i had one of those civil war minie ball guns i would paper patch that.

[Good Cheer]

I have been trying to get guys with .52's to try paper patching them. Ron

Ron, I'm of a mind to have a long .52 in a full length replacement stock. Actually it's something I've wanted to try ever since reading a science fiction novel a few years ago about a world having tech selectively introduced. Long range flinters figured into the story line and the more I thought about the more I've wanted to try it out. And I want it to be historically correct too for whatever planet that was.

[Nobade]

Ron, I'm of a mind to have a long .52 in a full length replacement stock. Actually it's something I've wanted to try ever since reading a science fiction novel a few years ago about a world having tech selectively introduced. Long range flinters figured into the story line and the more I thought about the more I've wanted to try it out. And I want it to be historically correct too for whatever planet that was.

Be careful with flintlocks and heavy boolits. Especially if you have a vent liner. They make a bunch more pressure than a roundball does.

-Nobade

[Good Cheer]

From what you've seen, your experience, your feel on the matter, do you think that blowing out a hole liner is a real possibility?

[Nobade]

Yes, it is a possibility. I have seen drums blow off, and nipples blow out. Flintlock vent liners typically have even larger diameter threads and not many of those. It can be done of course, I have a good friend who does exactly that, but liners aren't going to last long and I would make sure no one is to my right within range when I touch it off. (Of course that's just good practice with a flintlock anyhow, but I would extend the range.) If you can, a patent breech set up so the nipple bottoms in its hole with a small fire channel so the threads don't see full pressure is the best way to go. Not saying flintlocks won't work, just be careful.

-Nobade

[Good Cheer]

Your thoughts are as mine. Low power would be the way to go. Also, the shot to shot variations in elevation created by the large (blow torch) pressure outlet are a worry. A hole the size of a touch hole in a flinter does not have gas and particulates come out the same way time after time in a consistent manner. That will introduce changes in acceleration time after time more so than with a round ball. How to minimize the effects (juggling boolit and powder) is a matter I've pondered a while. But, the theoretical is just that until put into practice, if I get the opportunity.

[Enyaw]

I would wonder bout liners in a long ranger rifle or even a standard muzzlleloader rifle. The pressures getting into the line where the barrel liner should meet the face of the breechplug and moving the liner. The fit of the liner against the breech plug would need to be perfect. No space what so ever for the gas pressure to work on.

The drill out of the barrel would need to be perfectly perpendicular to the center line of the barrel. Perfect within less than .0001's. The sleeve of liner would have to match that on it's end and be perfectly perpendicular to it's center line. Then the plug/breech would need a face perfectly perpendiculur also. That's too many places needing to be a certain amount of crush fit to seal well. That's my opinion anyway.

Then there is the scenario where the face of the hooked breech/patent breech plug,like the Hawkens ect.ect., would need to have the powder chamber in the face non-existant or thye same diameter or smaller than the diameter of the barrel. You know.....so the sleeve isn't hanging into the larger powder chamber making a shoulder exposed to the pressure getting behind it. The ramrod would hook the shoulder of the sleeve also if the shoulder was not beveled to let it slide over the edge and not catch and leave a rod and cleaning jag hopelessly stuck while hunting or shooting targets.

Same thing can happen with a barrel with no liner/sleeve also. The diameter of a small bore is most often smaller than the bowl or powder chamber in the face of a hooked patent breech plug.To bevel enough to relieve that shoulder so cleaning jags aren't hooked over the shoulder of the beginning of the bore. Or making a shoulder that if not beveled there leaves a shelf face for pressures to act on and stress the breech and barrels threads. Simply the hole in the barrel would be smaller than the bowl shaped hole in the breech plug powder chamber. That bowl shaped face of the hooked breech plug being there to ease the difficulty of drilling the flash channel from that end.

Actually I don't remember if the Thompson Center type breech plug has that rather large bowl shaped hole/powder chamber in the face of it. Most other hooked breech type breech plugs out there to buy have a rather large bowl shaped hole in the face since they are made for guns with large bores.

There are 45's Thompson Centers and other factory made rifles but I don't remember what the plugs faces are like. I'd hope they were just flat faced and not having the powder chambers in them or at least would have the powder chamber that matched the diameter of the barrel bore.

In ther past I've rebarreled some Thompson Centers and used the breech plug or bought a factory replacement type plug that mimicked the TC plug. Pretty sure I had to bevel the beginning of the bore in the breech end to not leave a perpendiculat face that was towards the plug when going to fast twist smaller bores. If the taper was too much it could jeopardize the threads there at the beginning of the breech end of the barrel.

Anywhoooo....I wouldn't recommend a sleeve for that reason since even a tapered beginning would leave a shoulder for pressures to act on. Same with a new barrel with a relatively small bore like the 45's fast twist barrels.

I do remember having the beginning of the breech end of the bore just past the threads tapered or beveled so the shoulder of a smaller bore wouldn't hook a cleaning jag or at least recommend not using a jag with that shoulder that can go past the end of the barrel and catch on the beginning of the barrel coming back out.

[Enyaw]

I forgot to add that I wouldn't recommend a barrel made of other than ordanance grade steel like 4140 or 4150 for a long range rifle with heavier bullets. The 12L14 type steel is,from what I've read, what softer bolts and screws are made of. What was developed for making screws and bolts of softer steel.

In the past reading reports compiled about the factory rifle barrels back then using that type steel could bulge and burst when loading was incorrect and...even when it was correct. The most prevalent was the use of FFFg powder and the heavier conicals for bulged and burst barrels. I keep my powder charges at a limit of 80gr.--90gr. for using heavier conicals in the rifles I have with the softer factory made steel barrels......like the Italian Hawkens. I'd recommend the same for a U.S. made Thompson Center rifle barrel. That's with the 50cal. bigger bore with less pressures than the smaller bores.

Long range shooting often gets into the realm of "more powder" and "heavier bullets" trying tpo get way out there and have accuracy. The 45's often using bullets over 500 gr. with FFFg powder at times. More often the FFg or 1.5 Swiss powder(from what I've seen and read.

I'd feel better off with ordanance grade steel and a good steel for the breech plug for a "long ranger" smaller bore fast twist rifle barrel.

In my opinion the softer Lead-loy or 12L14 steel or like 1137 could be too soft. I'd say,in my opinion, the only reason it is used is because it's for "black powder" with lower pressures than smokeless powders and is cheaper to buy and machine.....and not for the fact it is soft and would bulge instead of burst like a harder steel would. Softer steel can burst with the same action as hard steel. Looks the same pretty much.

Thing is.....the ordanance grade steel takes a lot more pressure to bulge or burst.