Keith ... Loverin...

[Razor]

WTH are you fellas talking about ??
Time to again expose my ignorance..
OK.. so they're different designs ??
What are the differences ?
Is there any real signifigance to the design difference ?
Photos illustrating examples would be wonderful...
Thanks

Razor

PS,, Is there a sticky I missed ??

[LET-CA]

Last names of two famous bullet designers of days gone by. Elmer Keith is a name known to most because of his work with 44 specials and the introduction of the 44 Magnum which he pretty much fathered, and Loverin, whose bullets are known for thier multiple lube grooves. The Loverin bullet designs are known for their accuracy.

There! I've shared my three cents worth of knowledge. There are many here who can provide much more detail on these two men.

:Fire:

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/3870C943F75D6DF/standard.jpg

Loverin. Group buy, 311407M

.............Seems a Loverin (Guy Loverin) was a slug with the width of the drive bands pretty much the equal of the lube grooves.

..................Buckshot

[Bret4207]

http://www.fototime.com/C5FB19B8D1BE88E/standard.jpg

Hopefully that will get you to a pic of a Keith. It should be apparent between that and Bucks pics that the design differ greatly. To add further confusion there are Thompsons, Boslers, Hudsons, Kepharts, Squibbs, etc,etc,etc. Thanks goodness for mould numbers eh?

[Glen]

Elmer Keith designed cast bullets for revolvers back in the late 1920s and early 1930s (mostly) and his designs have come to define what we call a semi-wadcutter today. An example would be the Lyman/Ideal 454424 that he designed for the .45 Colt, shown below (on the left). His bullets are typified by being plain-based, having a single flat-bottomed lube groove, having three equal width driving bands, having a beveled crimp groove, and having a meplat that is roughly 70% of the bullet's diameter. The Keith cherry numbers are in the 421-439 range.

Guy Loverin designed his first cast bullet for the .22 Hornet in the late 1930s, and then after World War II (mostly in the 1950s) went on to design a bunch of other cast bullets for a variety of different rifle calibers, from .24 to .34 caliber. His bullets are typified by being gas-checked, having many smaller (and rounded) lube grooves, a short round nose, and lots of bearing surface. An example would be the Lyman 323471 HP mould shown below. His first two designs had cherry numbers of 438 and 448, but most of his designs have cherry numbers in the 455 to 471 range.

Both Keith and Loverin designs are known for being accurate, functional cast bullet designs -- Keith for handguns, and Loverin for rifles.

[Bob Jones]

Here's a little snip I found that well describes the difference between the Loverin design and the Pope design...

There is one other type of bullet design that has been used in 4-groove barrels. Called the “Loverin design” after designer Guy Loverin. It is typified by a continual series of narrow lube grooves and narrow bands, all being the same diameter. It has almost no forepart. These bullets were designed in the day before modern alox/beeswax lubes. Personally, I have never found them to work as well as other types. They have fallen from favor somewhat in these days of high tech lubes. Some still swear by Loverin types though. The most successful cast bullets with a continual series of narrow lube grooves and narrow bands are tapered. That is; they get larger toward the back end. Such bullets cannot be sized. They must be hand lubed. Often called “Pope design” after Harry Melville Pope - (by Mark Trope)

[Glen]

The Pope designs were all plain-based, the Loverin designs all gas-checked.

I would disagree with the statement that the Loverin designs "have fallen from favor in these days of high-tech lubes". Some of Loverin's designs continue to be among Lyman's more popular rifle moulds, especially in the metric calibers (e.g. 266469, 245496, 323470).

While the Pope bullets are good bullets, Mr. Trope has glossed over the fact that they were intended for a very different form of loading/shooting -- breach seating, where the lubed bullet is hand-seated into the throat of the rifle, followed by a charged/primed case. Mr. Loverin designed his bullets to be loaded into the cartridge (i.e. seated into the charged/primed case, resulting in a complete cartridge).

[Razor]

Gentlemen, thank you all so much for your responses..
You have answered my question succinctly and comprehensively.
I am continually amazed at the wealth of information available here..and your willingness to share it.
I am very happy to have found this site.:-D

Lurkingly yours,
Razor


PS.. More questions sure to follow.

[floodgate]

Glen:

Excellent summary; and in only about half as many words as I tend to use when answering the same questions!

floodgate

[RBak]

Glenn, Your posts have always made for some really good reading....Well written!

Russ...