yet another 1895 cb 45-70 query...

[RICKLANDES]

Here is where I am at...I am loading new starline brass, fresh from the box, non-annealed, using a lyman 457122, 457193, 457643 cast boolit. First casting were showing BHN of 15. WW lLRr Rem 91/2 primers, softer versions of the same boolits with cww. First boolits were sized to 458...wrong too small as barrel slugging showed. So I tried the boolits as cast .459 of 1-20 to cww at .460. I have tried 5477, rl7, unique and considered 3031 all shot on speeds of about 1300 to about 1500 fps. I am using stock sights at 100 yds from solid bench rest. I am seeing no pattern to this rifle with these various loads. Sometimes 2 will drop in the same hole, next boolit is 6 to 12 inches away. OAL has been varied to a max of 2.55.

I have not weighed these projectiles to put them into similar weight classes and the like. However I am casting very slow and methodically which normally gives me a couple grains curve with the bigger postells for the 45-120 BP loads. So I think my casting is fine.

The best I have to show for my efforts is four to five inch groups with a hard cast, 457122 sized 458 with red rooster lube. I did switch to alox as I had some lead at barrel end. That ended leading.

I would like to see about a consistent 3" group at 100 yards w/in the posted speeds. I am after a simple (wish it were so) 100 brush load.

Loads are each weighed, and crimped on a Hornady L-N-L press with lyman dies.

I have a JP Gemmer rifle in 45-70 that will cloverleaf my hand fodder at 100 yds on a decent day. I have handloaded since the mid-80's and can usually figure out something that is minute of barndoor but this one has me a bit challenged.

What am I missing here?

I am thinking to anneal the new brass, reduce powder load, weigh the boolits and get the chronograph out and perhaps buy a sizable piece of soft maple to bang my head onto...

[osteodoc08]

I've personally found the best accuracy with Varget in my 1895GS. The try to get the OAL to just off the lands and will back off more if any feeding issues.

Molds include:

Accurate 460350V, 460400L (GC and PB) and NOE 460350 RF

My 1895GS seems to really like the Accurate mold designs but the NOE is a good one too. I can usually get around 2-2.5" at 100yds with sub 2" on a good day.

What is the twist on the CB models?

[RICKLANDES]

PER THE MARLIN WEB SITE...
Model 1895 Cowboy
With their tapered octagon barrels, these rifles offer true cowboy-rifle heft and aesthetics for everyone from the die-hard Cowboy Action Shooter to the hunter who appreciates 19th century-style firearms. Our Model 1895 Cowboy is chambered for 45-70 Gov't. and is equipped with a 26" barrel. Also,featuring traditional Ballard-style rifling, handsome American black walnut stock and fore-end, and richly blued finish.




Caliber 45/70 Gov't. Order Online from Gallery of Guns
Capacity 9-shot tubular magazine
Action Lever action with squared finger lever; side ejection; solid top receiver; deeply blued metal surfaces; hammer block safety.
Stock Straight-grip American black walnut; hard rubber butt plate; tough Mar-Shield® finish; blued steel fore-end cap.
Barrel 26" Tapered octagon barrel with deep-cut Ballard-type rifling (6 grooves)
Twist Rate 1:20" r.h.
Sights Adjustable Marble semi-buckhorn rear, Marble carbine front sight. Solid top receiver tapped for scope mount; offset hammer spur (right or left hand) for scope use. Serial number is on left side of receiver, instead of tang, allowing custom installation of a tang sight by a competent gunsmith.
Overall Length 44.5"
Weight 8 lbs.

[osteodoc08]

So the twist is the standard 1:20, same as my GS.

How does it shoot at closer distances? How much have you practiced with it? I'm using a low power scope. If using the buckhorn open sights, to me, 4" groups at 100yds would be good for me. The sights are not super precise. If wanting to shoot open sights, consider some type of peep/tang sight.

For me, the limiting factor with open sights has always been my eye sight and sighting devices, not the gun itself. Perhaps a good peep sight will be in your future.

I would also be very picky on which boolits pass mister and which ones do not. If accuracy is the game, I want them all to be perfect and weigh the same..

[RICKLANDES]

Truth be known I have shot only at 100 yards thus far with this rifle. I set-up a IPSC target on a large box, backed by sand filled tires and placed a fifty yard small bore bullseye on the top of the first target. In most cases in about 3-4 shots I am on. I think I will have to go back and try at 50 with some jacketed fodder to see what the rifle can do, then again move into the cast realm. I do have peep sights I could put onto the rifle, but was hoping to keep with stock equipment.

I only have about 200 rounds thru this particular rifle. I bought it almost new (3 rounds!?) and broke it in with my usual shoot and clean with JB routine. Now about 1/3 of the blue is worn out in the barrel so I am believing the factory cut marks and burrs are smoothed enough that it should settle in for some fairly decent grouping.

Smaller lever action rifles, like the 32-20, 32 special, etc that I shoot have similar designs and sighting so I really felt I would drop into better groupings sooner than what I see thus far.

I group well with my 45-120 and even the 458 win mag at 100 so I do not think recoil, etc are effecting the groups. I am considering a looser sand bag to help keep that thin forearm from canting.

Thanks for your feedback and help too.

[RICKLANDES]

Well one mystery is solved. I cast some 457122 using 10 pounds ww to 1/2 pound rotometals super hard with one pound of lino. The resulting bullet weighed 336.6 grains (or at least the four I randomly selected did) and had a BHN of 13.6 per my Lee tester. I coated these with a paint thinner thinned bit of Alox and dried using a heat gun. Out of Rem cases and a WW LR primer I used 15 grains of Unique. I did not have specific load data for this cast bullet but had data for a 290 and a 385 I picked the higher end 290 load as my start. I did drop back to 50 yards and from the bench the first three rounds were in a level horizontal line with about 1/2 a bullet diameter between them. I moved up to 16 grains and 2 when into the same hole, one about 1/2" to the left and a bullet width high. 17 grains put one hole in the target.
I am casting up a 100 or so of these to try out at 100 yards.

I have a general question on the "buckhorn" style sight...Do most use it with the front ball tucked into the center groove or do you use it as a semi peep, centering the front bead/ball in the center of the buckhorn? If I use the first method the POI is very low, second method puts me right on at 50 yards? Oh I am in the second step up of the Marlin rear sight.

I am not looking for advice on after market sights...there are many and I do have access to vernier tang styles and the like. I want to keep it stock for now.

Thanks for the help...it was a great joy to see small groups forming...:)

[osteodoc08]

I've always dropped the dot into the groove. Not sure if that's the right way or not, again, it's just a consistency thing. So long as your consistent and it is set up for you, who cares?

Hank Aaron hit home runs with his hands backwards until a batting coach had him switch it to "normal".

As you saw, speed offers stability by increasing RPM and thus, accuracy. Anectdotslly, I've found that a medium hardness lube works well at high velocity as the grease grooves will sling the lube consistently as opposed to the super hard lubes which may or may not come out of the groove equall, throwing off accuracy.

[MT Chambers]

My groups with the cowboy gun were not good at first until I switched to a rear Lyman peep sight, all is good now!!

[RICKLANDES]

I found my own answer as shown in this pic. It is down this page a bit and was of use to me. Hopefully it will be the same for others.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_F-UCRo1j_cY/S-GtVCRHgiI/AAAAAAAAAEA/BsfFC6tpMZU/s1600/Using+the+Peephorn.bmp

[303carbine]

Here is where I am at...I am loading new starline brass, fresh from the box, non-annealed, using a lyman 457122, 457193, 457643 cast boolit. First casting were showing BHN of 15. WW lLRr Rem 91/2 primers, softer versions of the same boolits with cww. First boolits were sized to 458...wrong too small as barrel slugging showed. So I tried the boolits as cast .459 of 1-20 to cww at .460. I have tried 5477, rl7, unique and considered 3031 all shot on speeds of about 1300 to about 1500 fps. I am using stock sights at 100 yds from solid bench rest. I am seeing no pattern to this rifle with these various loads. Sometimes 2 will drop in the same hole, next boolit is 6 to 12 inches away. OAL has been varied to a max of 2.55.

I have not weighed these projectiles to put them into similar weight classes and the like. However I am casting very slow and methodically which normally gives me a couple grains curve with the bigger postells for the 45-120 BP loads. So I think my casting is fine.

The best I have to show for my efforts is four to five inch groups with a hard cast, 457122 sized 458 with red rooster lube. I did switch to alox as I had some lead at barrel end. That ended leading.

I would like to see about a consistent 3" group at 100 yards w/in the posted speeds. I am after a simple (wish it were so) 100 brush load.

Loads are each weighed, and crimped on a Hornady L-N-L press with lyman dies.

I have a JP Gemmer rifle in 45-70 that will cloverleaf my hand fodder at 100 yds on a decent day. I have handloaded since the mid-80's and can usually figure out something that is minute of barndoor but this one has me a bit challenged.

What am I missing here?

I am thinking to anneal the new brass, reduce powder load, weigh the boolits and get the chronograph out and perhaps buy a sizable piece of soft maple to bang my head onto...



Try the 405 grain RCBS mould and use a gas check, drive them faster to around 1650 fps. The Lyman #2 bullet hardness works well in my Marlin 45-70, they are soft enough to obturate while staying together. I find that cast bullets that are too hard don't have the accuracy of the slightly softer versions with gas checks.
I don't bother to shoot bevel base castbullets anymore, too hard, sized too small= bad accuracy.
I get these to shoot good out of all the Marlin and Winchester 86 45-70's I have owned.
I find IMR 4198 burns better with no unburnt powder gremlins left over after firing.

[BloodGroove4570]

If your confident with your loads, try concentrating on your rest/hold...

I've had leverguns that will not shoot accurately with certain positions on sandbags/rest vs forearm pressures. Try adjusting the point in where your forearm is setting on your rest or try holding the gun and resting your own hands/arms with the gun NOT touching parts of the rest.


Good luck
BloodGroove4570