Keep moose happy thread

[btroj]

Apparently I need to keep my garbage out of other threads.

I would like to see a thread where we discuss the particulars of making whatever gun you got shoot its best at high velocity.

If you are interested, let me know.

[geargnasher]

You know I am. What do you want to hear about, .30-30 Marlin, 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, .30-'06 (M70), Savage .308 Pig Gun, 7mm-08, or the limited work I've done so far with the .30 XCB? Contrary to how I seem to have been appearing to some lately, I DO NOT know enough to have achieved all my goals yet, but I've gotten really close in a few of these, and there are definite things I have thought about, tried, and been tipped off to that have positive effects.

Gear

[Sweetpea]

I'm interested!

I have much more to learn, than pontificate about, if that helps...

I have ideas from time to time, with zero experience shooting cast in rifles, I have several I need to figure out myself, and could definitely use a sounding board.

First on the agenda will be my son's 308. I have a Lyman 311291, and a Lee 312-155 2r to start out with...

[btroj]

I am interested I what it takes to make "Al Average's" deer rifle or whatever as accurate possible at high velocity.

Brass prep, bullet design considerations, powder choices, and many other things are important and deserve consideration.

I don't know much about shooting at speeds above 1900 fps with cast but plan to learn.

[geargnasher]

Get the boolit through the gun without damaging it so it flies straight once out of the gun. That means it needs to be started absolutely straight so it isn't bent upon trying to engrave, use a powder burn rate (usually slower than normal, even for jacketed bullets in a given caliber, but not always) that accelerated the boolit gently up the bore, and use an alloy that is tough yet malleable and more than a little springy to help resist the forces that are trying to distort it in the throat. One also has to start with a good, well-cast boolit, "just right" case tension, and then fit things so the boolit is presented straight into the bore when fired.

Let's start with how to cast a good boolit for higher velocity. For that, Goodsteel put up a pretty good thread on his experiences learning how. I think a whole lot of that whole casting subject could be considered covered and not need a rehash here. I'll have to find that thread and link it here. Any questions on the definition of "good boolit"?

Another good subject to consider next is FIT. Static fit, dynamic fit, etc. and exactly what that means with regard to fixed ammunition, what one is trying to achieve by doing what and why it matters. I mean case fit AND boolit fit. There's a lot of ground to cover here, and it's foundational, without good fit, it doesn't matter what else you do, that's why it's called "KING". There are general guidelines, and I can give specific examples of what has worked for me the best in a few guns, and what didn't work so well. I'm not the only one who needs help with this! We had a good thread covering just that, I can find and link it too, but for now bedtime calls.

Gear

[leftiye]

Sounds more like you need a forum where threads can be started about individual guns.

[cbrick]

Sure I'm interested. I deleted over 20 of my posts in the other two threads because both turned into pure romper room. I'll give this thread one more try.

Ok, Brad let's start with you telling us what it is you've tried so far and if it was a benefit or detriment.

Rick

[btroj]

Nope, not that at all.

Why talk about my gun in particular? Because it is the one I will be shooting. I can't make your gun shoot better, only you can do that. If my speaking about my experiences with mine help someone else make their gun shoot better then so much better for all.

No different than when someone talks about how they modified their mould and got better results. They spoke of their mould but the info shared could possibly help others with their mould.

I can only speak of my gun, mould, and ammo. I don't have anyone else's to use. I am willing to freely share my experiences with my stuff, it is up to others to decide what value that may have in their loading.

We need to discuss what is actually being done on the casting, loading, and shooting bench. Not theory but what we are really doing, right now.

Where is the negative here Leftiye?

[btroj]

Sure I'm interested. I deleted over 20 of my posts in the other two threads because both turned into pure romper room. I'll give this thread one more try.

Ok, Brad let's start with you telling us what it is you've tried so far and if it was a benefit or detriment.

Rick

Truth is Rick, I haven't yet tried shooting cast in a rifle over 2000 fps much. I shot some 375 H&H at 2100 or so but I don't consider that to be a big deal. It was with a stock Lyman mould and no real intense loading techniques.

I will have a good test rifle soon and then the real work begins.

I am looking to document a process of learning. I have a gun being built, will be using a Resding FL bushing die for sizing, a Forster Ultra seater for bullet seating, and an Accurate 31-190X mould. Powder, at least initially, will be RE 19. I look to get 2400 fps or better. I may shoot a few initially with 2400 at 1800 fps or so to get a feel for the new rifle and how it handles. This will also let me fire form some cases as they will require major reforming and neck trimming.

So, for right now a Rick it have nothing. I am more interested in seeing who wants to help me, and others, along the path. I have a feeling that a guy like you will have some good insight. Heck, your comments on has check seating and how you run a Bullet thru your Star already have me thinking.

[45 2.1]

I think a whole lot of that whole casting subject could be considered covered and not need a rehash here. Gear

Nope...... that is really important, especially the alloy you choose and what you do with it.

If you want to know more, try these things out:

1. Shoot different alloys (50/50 WW/Pb, WW, #2, Lino) with the same load and compile the results.
2. Try air cooled and water dropped with each one. Wait at least two weeks before shooting them.
3. Water drop or oven heat treat each one, then draw to lesser hardness after curing in several BHN ranges and try after the two + week cure. The percent composition of the alloying constituents have a big effect on curing time and what happens when heat treated.

This is presuming you can cast boolits with a small weight variation, then perform a visual inspection/culling for defects. Until you get this right, higher velocity accuracy will elude you.

Questions?

[MT Gianni]

I would be interested in learning more about brass prep on long factory cartridges, ie 30-06 and 223 where there is no apparent longer case to reform a true straight neck. Can it all be done with really good dies and mandrel or do we just shoot average factory rifles in shorter chamberings?

[cbrick]

Agree completely. The time curve for age hardening is dependent on the Sb percentage, the lower the Sb percent the longer the age/time curve. Even with under 2% Sb the two weeks Bob mentioned should be good.

One thing that will help with weight variation is I don't keep any of the 10 or so pours from a pre-heated mold. Doesn't matter how good they may look or that the mold was pre-heated the first pours before the mold evens out to alloy temp will be lighter. Segregate these first pours and weigh them later to see if they aren't lighter than the majority of the casting session. This will help even out weight variations.

Oven heat treating will give better consistency in BHN than quenching from the mold. I did a long range revolver test changing BHN only that lasted for 1 1/2 years. I shot 5 shot groups from the bench at 150 meter over and over changing only the BHN via convection oven heat treating, all alloy, powder, brass, primers were from the same lots. Every time during that year and a half that I mixed BHN's within the same group the groups opened up.

Take notes on EVERYTHING, even things that may not seem to matter at the time cause it will later and will save from repeating the same things again later. At the range note temp, humidity, wind and even sun brightness.

Rick

[45 2.1]

Even with under 2% Sb the two weeks Bob mentioned should be good.
Rick

It is not adequate for anything under 50% WW in the WW/Pb alloy. Once these guys learn what these different alloy constituents do in varying percentages, then the real fun stuff can be talked about. Seeing is believing, nothing like it when you want to learn more.

[Love Life]

I would be interested in learning more about brass prep on long factory cartridges, ie 30-06 and 223 where there is no apparent longer case to reform a true straight neck. Can it all be done with really good dies and mandrel or do we just shoot average factory rifles in shorter chamberings?

I believe it can be done with the above dies/mandrel/neck turning, and a brutal culling regimen. A concentricity tool helps immensely in the measuring. Then there are the different brands of brass to try.

I believe chamber dimensions will be a huge variable/issue to overcome in "Al Average's" rifle.

[freebullet]

What would be the difference between casting boolits at the exact same weight and simply weight sorting them?

I am in the begining stages of an accuracy/velocity test where I hope to push beyond my previous limitations. Weight sorting 350+ boolits revealed my casting technique for hi velocity rifle boolits needs much improvement. I've read a bunch of the afore mentioned threads, but my initial one in this thread remains.

After weight sorting that many boolits I've found that even the ones that weigh the same have subtle physical/visual differences. I imagine those will have an effect on upper end velocity to accuracy. Maybe that's the answer, not only starting a test where the boolits all weigh the same but have been segragated to matching physical characteristics too.

Then you throw in Bhn and the possible variance there and it is no wonder high velocity cast shooting with accuracy is a tough feat to accomplish. That's a lot to consider before we even think about cases, powder, oal, and other variable factors that contribute to our limitations.

[geargnasher]

Nope...... that is really important, especially the alloy you choose and what you do with it.

If you want to know more, try these things out:

1. Shoot different alloys (50/50 WW/Pb, WW, #2, Lino) with the same load and compile the results.
2. Try air cooled and water dropped with each one. Wait at least two weeks before shooting them.
3. Water drop or oven heat treat each one, then draw to lesser hardness after curing in several BHN ranges and try after the two + week cure. The percent composition of the alloying constituents have a big effect on curing time and what happens when heat treated.

This is presuming you can cast boolits with a small weight variation, then perform a visual inspection/culling for defects. Until you get this right, higher velocity accuracy will elude you.

Questions?

I have one, but it is jumping ahead a little here.

I was trying to figure out where to start this, and there are three things inter-related here with step one, casting a boolit: Casting a GOOD boolit. Casting the CORRECT boolit for the gun, and using the right ALLOY for the intended application. So should we cover casting techniques again, then chamber casting and mould selection for proper fit , then discuss intended velocity and end use BEFORE diving off into what alloy to use?

You and I both made the presumption that one can already cast a good boolit, I think it's been covered on the forum in pretty good detail, but maybe a rehash is necessary?

Gear

[Love Life]

I do not believe a rehash of casting a good bullet is necessary. People can "trial and error" that part off line with their casting technique.

[geargnasher]

Freebullet, keep practicing casting with one mould until you can get them all to LOOK the same, you do that by finding the temperature the mould likes (casting pace and amount of extra metal you pour on the sprue plate, and/or a small fan) and learning how to maintain the "zone" where they are visually identical in fillout, sheen, sprue cut appearance, THEN start weight sorting. Light boolits may have voids, heavy ones may be from the blocks not being totally closed so there will be dimensional defects. Also, cavities may not all drop the same size. Do a bell-curve sort and you can find out what's going on with your mould.

My method, take it for what it's worth, is to visually sort, then weigh. For 180-ish grain boolits, I sort plus/minus .1 grain for a .3 grain max variance. Anything lighter or heavier gets culled, providing the cavities are all throwing the same weight.

Gear

[45 2.1]

What would be the difference between casting boolits at the exact same weight and simply weight sorting them?

If you can cast boolits that weigh the same, visual culling is enough....... But, you must learn to cast uniform boolits first. Learning what the different alloying constituents do, for or against you, along with heat treating allow you to get what you want for the purpose you want it to do.


I have one, but it is jumping ahead a little here.

I was trying to figure out where to start this, and there are three things inter-related here with step one, casting a boolit: Casting a GOOD boolit. Casting the CORRECT boolit for the gun, and using the right ALLOY for the intended application. So should we cover casting techniques again, then chamber casting and mould selection for proper fit , then discuss intended velocity and end use BEFORE diving off into what alloy to use?

You and I both made the presumption that one can already cast a good boolit, I think it's been covered on the forum in pretty good detail, but maybe a rehash is necessary?

Gear

People here are at different stages in learning. If everybody wants to learn, then you go thru the steps. I doubt you or most other people here can tell me ahead of time what you'll find with the test. Those results you need to see for yourself.

Harry M. Pope, the maker of superlative barrels who died about 60 years ago, made a statement at a match, late in his life, while talking to a friend. He said "very few people can make a bullet worth shooting". Learn to make consistent boolits first, then learn what different alloying constituents do and then the rest is a whole lot easier.

[btroj]

Couldn't agree more.
Start at the beginning and go forward. Assume nothing.
I have NEVER weigh sorted any of my bullets so how consistent they are I can't really say.

I suppose I best get crackin, sounds like I have homework.

[cbrick]

It is not adequate for anything under 50% WW in the WW/Pb alloy.

Actually that's true. I did a Sb/BHN test some years back, my normal alloy that ran 3% Sb or just barely under that took 3-4 days to reach the 18 BHN goal via convection oven heat treating. I ran a test with the Sb about half of that and didn't expect it to reach 18 but it did. The difference in the two alloys was that the lower Sb alloy took three weeks to reach 18 BHN.

There has been a lot of XrF testing done and posted on the forum lately, one of these threads is a sticky & they both should be. Weights from both coasts and spanning several years have been tested and the consistency has really amazed me. Seems the lowly WW is much more consistent than I ever thought they would be. From this testing I'd think it safe to assume clip-on weights will contain about 2 3/4% Sb and one half of one percent Sn. Also from this XrF testing that could effect heat treating results and the time curve is that As comes up in some of the tests and none in other tests. I've always tried to balance the Sb/Sn and add 2% Sn by weight to my clip-on weights and it now seems that my "assumption" of 2% Sn was correct.

Rick

[cbrick]

Harry M. Pope, the maker of superlative barrels who died about 60 years ago, made a statement at a match, late in his life, while talking to a friend. He said "very few people can make a bullet worth shooting". Learn to make consistent boolits first, then learn what different alloying constituents do and then the rest is a whole lot easier.

I think Mr. Pope was right.

One of the things that make a quality boolit is: I am of the school of thought that says the base of the boolit steers the boolit. If the base isn't perfect it's no better than trying to shoot the sprues. My first boolit inspection is upon opening the sprue plate before opening the mold. There is no better time to vividly see the boolit base, if any in that pour are anything less than perfect it goes into the sprue pile. A complete/full/square base all the way around each boolit. One way to ensure a good base is to pour a very generous sprue puddle, keep pouring after the cavity is filled and the alloy inside the mold is freezing. This is also the step towards another aspect of good bases, keep the sprue plate hot. Much over looked with a lot of casters is the sprue plate temp and it is every bit as important as mold temp. The sprue plate doesn't have the mass the blocks do and it spends time sticking out in the air, it cools rapidly compared to the blocks and a cool sprue plate makes perfect bases all the more difficult.

Rick

[freebullet]

Inconsistent bases is the number one flaw I found while weight/visual sorting last night. Some of the variances is so subtle you don't even see it unless handling each boolit. It accounted most toward the nearly 2gr difference I found in the lot of boolits.

[btroj]

Ok. Cast 194 bullets and rejected 74 of them. Those were found to be visually unacceptable.

What do you guys say about these. I indicated the flaws I saw and numbered them for easier identification.

Which ones would you reject?

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/rejectbullets1_zpsf5f9ffa3.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/rejectbullets1_zpsf5f9ffa3.jpg.html)

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/rejectbullets2_zps86d1dd46.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/rejectbullets2_zps86d1dd46.jpg.html)

Now to weigh sort the remainder.

[nekshot]

I have been convicted over base prep after reading about Bens tool from Buckshot. I made a jig this winter foe each of my boolits to lay in nose first at proper depth and then I gently stoke a fine file across the jig and it leaves a perfect square base every time and all the exact same length, still need to weigh and sort. Today I thought I had it going my way with a early 94 ae in 30-30 with a 16 inch twist(measured it 6 times) shooting a saeco 150, 32 to 34 gr 2700 and then I switched to my home made checks and presto a shot went 3 inches out of 1 inch groub at 80 yards. More attention to my home made checks for sure. I have a good fit with chamber and last fall I decided to start at the back of boolit and work front, see if that makes a differant. Only God knows how hard I tried to get it right from the front of boolit back!

[nekshot]

concernig which boolits I would use, for me only 1. I simply get weird when it gets to boolits. They must be perfect.

[btroj]

First off, the 9 bullets in the photo were all but one in the major weight ranges or the keepers. Tells me those flaws don't cause much weight loss. Does the void still matter? I don't know. Talk to me.

I sorted by weight and kept 3 weight groupings. They were 188.1 to 189.3, 188.4 to 188.6, and 188.7 to 189.9.

Of the rejected ones the max weight was 189.8 and the lightest was 186.5

I had 29 from 188.1 to 188.3
I had 31 from 188.4 to 188.6
I had 15 from 189.7 to 188.9

I did reject around 5 to 7 the that weighed 188.0

What to do with the keepers? Do I keep them in separate weight groups? Do I combine the two lower weight groups?

I had a measly 38.6 percent keeper rate out of the initial 194 bullets. My technique needs some major work. I need to get the mould hotter to start and keep a better rhythm going. I also need to be better at pouring straight into the cavity as I am using a bottom pour. I did lose a few from inadequate sprue puddle and subsequent flaws in the base.

[cbrick]

Brad, I'm really not trying to be a smart a*s and I'm not trying to put you down but . . . I wouldn't keep a single one of those. Your wanting higher velocity groups, that ain't gonna do it.

Describe your casting method, how are you going about it. Also describe your alloy, pot temp, flux and how your going about fluxing.

I am not trying to show off I'm trying to help you, you are looking for this.

102940

As a side note, this boolit was a total failure. It is the SAECO 264 140 gr 6.5mm meant for around 2200 fps in a tack driving custom built Shilen Super match barrel 15" XP. SAECO's bore riding nose doesn't, nose is at best a sloppy fit in the bore and groups were dismal. It casts a beautiful boolit but that doesn't mean squat if it doesn't fit and this one doesn't.

Rick

[btroj]

Not being a smart alek at all, I want, and need, the criticism to get better.

I am using a 22 pound RCBS. I don't have a PID or a thermometer. Alloy is a mix of range scrap and some harder mystery alloy I was using for 9 mm plinking ammo. It heat treats to 18 BHn so it isn't over hard or so. I did add 1/2 pound of 30% body solder I have kicking around. I wasn't overly picky about the alloy at this time as I was more interested in seeing what the weight consistency would be and getting a new mould broken in. Pot is set at 750 right now, if I go much lower, like to 700, it tends to freeze up the spout. That is how the pot is marked, the actual temp is likely not those numbers.

I flux with a fluff of hamster bedding. The amount is around the size of a golf ball. I do this once the lead is fully melter and has had a few minutes to equalize in temp. I stir the pot well before fluxing. Bedding is placed on top of melt and left for about 15 seconds to make sure it is dry. I then use a spoon to dribble lead thru the bedding while it begins to char. Once it begins to char well I stir the pot well trying to get a somewhat verticle flow going to bring stuff from the bottom of the pot. I then ignite the bedding and stir more as it burns. After it has gone out I stir for another 15 seconds or so and remove the charred remnants from the surface of the melt. Dusting all this I try not to get too much wood or ash below the surface of the melt as I have had problems with it getting onto the bottom of the pot and causing dribbles and leaks.

I use the pot as a bottom pour. I make every effort to get the stream directly into the cavity and leave 3/8 inch or so sprue puddle. I then remove from under the pot and rest the mould tipped up on my bench in front of a small fan. I count 5 seconds from end of pour into second cavity to cutting sprue. I then dump bullets and repeat.

I find that once I get going the sprue takes 3 to seconds to harden and flash over.

I do not stop and gawk at bullets or anything else. I do what I can to maintain a good rhythm.

As this was a new mould I did have a little trouble initially with oil in the cavities. I thought I had washed it well but apparently not. I cast did 20 mould fills with a dumping of the bullets to get the mould to temp and remove the last of the oil.

Oh, the mould is an Accurate 2 cav brass 31-190X. Spec'd to drop a 311 bullet at 190 gr in 50-50 WW/Pb.

Any suggestions are welcome.

[freebullet]

Spray the cavities out with solvent. Clean the pot by scraping all the gunk from the sides and bottom, and the spigot. I'm gunna wind up getting a thermometer you may need one too..

I sorted 350+ lee 312-155 into 6 categories.
1. 154-154.5 these are getting checked for upto 2200fps testing
2. 154.6 naked for sub test
3. 154.7-155.3 getting checked also for 2200 test
4. 155.4 naked for sub test
5. 155.5-156 getting checked too for 2200 test
6. Any over or under or with any visual defect. These will get checked and used as short range plinkers in the 1400-1800 fps range. ALL of my cast loads have been at or under 1900fps.

[45 2.1]

Which ones would you reject?

None of those are suitable for really good HV groups.

[swheeler]

Ok. Cast 194 bullets and rejected 74 of them. Those were found to be visually unacceptable.

What do you guys say about these. I indicated the flaws I saw and numbered them for easier identification.

Which ones would you reject?

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/rejectbullets1_zpsf5f9ffa3.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/rejectbullets1_zpsf5f9ffa3.jpg.html)

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/rejectbullets2_zps86d1dd46.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/rejectbullets2_zps86d1dd46.jpg.html)

Now to weigh sort the remainder.

All 1-9

[btroj]

I did reject them all. I was looking to see of others culled bullets with those types of flaws.

[Love Life]

Those are the obvious culls. Get you one of those big magnifying glasses. You know, I've been wondering a set of the cabine tree locking handles would be a worthwhile addition to this quest.

[geargnasher]

That brass sucks a lot of heat, and always seems to cast better boolits after two or three sessions.

This is clippy weights plus one percent tin from the first session, run at the ragged edge of too hot on the mould and alloy both, alloy was maintained at 725 +/- 5 degrees, four steady pours per minute. Took 20 minutes in the mould oven at 400F to get it up to speed from room temperature before casting. I wiped the frost off the throat slugs with a dry rag, the as-cast boolit is, as cast, and the pic makes it look like it has a rounded base band and dip in the edge of the base, but it doesn't.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101737&d=1396929239

Gear

[Mooseman]

I may get hammered for this , but , I recommend changing flux. I tried the sawdust / bedding stuff and it was the biggest mess in my pot I ever had to deal with. I went back to using Rosin Solder paste Flux (Kester Brand) as it allows my alloys to fuse, it doesn't flare up in flame , and it brings any impurities right to the top for easy removal and it only takes a small amount on a hardwood dowel stirred in to do the job. My pot stays clean and so does my lead.
Second , On large boolits , I pressure cast with my bottom pour pots. Most of mine are larger than 30 cal, but it works to form Beautiful Boolits and Ballsfrom .429 up to 69 cal. with no voids when up to temp and in my rhythm.
I learned Casting in 1973 so I could learn reloading because I had to have boolits to load first..
Happy , Happy , Happy !!! (so far)
Rich

[swheeler]

From what I see I'd say you need to flux better, a lot better from the inclusions present. The obvious wrinkles are from a cold mold, clean it real good and preheat it before you try again. And you asked "which one would you reject" All 1-9 is my answer.

[btroj]

Gear, I personally think ALL moulds do better after a few sessions.

I think more heat would help. I got a few rejects with obvious rounded bands.

The fluxing method will likely change. I need to get some alloy mixed up for this thing. Looking to make a few hundred pounds to set aside for this one rifle. Helps keep it consistent that way.

Thanks for the input guys.

[cbrick]

Why don't you try this, while those SAECO boolits in the above pic were bottom poured why don't you get a Rowell #2 ladle and ladle them, I get far fewer rejects that way. Ladle pouring is slower but your not trying to shoot fast groups your trying to shoot good groups. Even though ladling is slower with fewer rejects it's not really much slower. When ladle casting hold the mold over the pot and fill each cavity and keep pouring, let the alloy flow over the mold back into the pot. Don't look at this as pouring lead, your pouring heat, your keeping the sprue plate and top of the mold to temperature. No, it won't stick to a properly heated mold, a gloved hand will brush it right off.

The numbers on the RCBS thermostat are for reference only, it does not correlate to any given temp or least mine sure doesn't. In addition, the lower the alloy in the pot gets the higher the pot temp, just the nature of an electric pot. If you can't pop for a PID right now (recommended) at the least get a thermometer, run the pot at 700-725. Pre-heat the mold on a hot plate to 400-425 for at least the time it takes the casting pot to get to temp. Turn the mold over on the hot plate to heat up the sprue plate and top of the mold for the last several minutes of pre-heating. Use an oven (cover) on the hot plate.

102961

Your fluxing sounds ok except it does no good to pour the alloy through the wood chips, it's after it burns that it does the fluxing. The wood will turn to carbon and carbon is what does the fluxing, it takes time to properly flux a pot. Just doing it a little only fluxes a little. Oils and waxes will not flux the alloy simply because they are not fluxes, sawdust is a flux. Folks that post what a mess sawdust is is baffling to me, I don't know what they are doing because for me it's the neatest, cleanest fluxing I've ever done and it leaves your pot and tools much cleaner. You cannot get the sawdust under the melt, the density of lead and sawdust prevents it. If you stir with a wooden stick (I don't) you could bring ash & particles under the melt.

I would recommend that by the time your new rifle shows up that you get a known alloy. Range scrap and other unknowns are just fine for most pistols and plinking loads but your stated goal is higher velocity grouping. Will be much easier to know what your working with and repeatable next time and the next time.

Your boolit #8 is a good example of the mold too cool. The first alloy in the mold starts to freeze at that spot and then more molten alloy flows around it.

Rick

[btroj]

Ok, my mould was obviously way too cold. Way, way cold. Lesson learned.

I need to invest in a PID. I have considered it for a while and no time like the present to do so.

Plan is to mix some of the range scrap and some monotype. I will likely do 5 pots of about 40 pounds each. Those will then be poured into ingots and kept in separate piles. I will then take the same amount from each pile and remix. This will make for 200 pounds of pretty much the same alloy. I then set that aside for use only in this rifle. Obviously each of those melts will be well fluxed to remove as much junk as possible before it gets into the casting pot.

[Sweetpea]

I use the pot as a bottom pour. I make every effort to get the stream directly into the cavity and leave 3/8 inch or so sprue puddle. I then remove from under the pot and rest the mould tipped up on my bench in front of a small fan. I count 5 seconds from end of pour into second cavity to cutting sprue. I then dump bullets and repeat.

I find that once I get going the sprue takes 3 to seconds to harden and flash over.



Brad, you need to try all the variables with this mould, and that may include deflecting the flow into the cavities off the sprue plate.

This can also help keep the plate temp up.

[btroj]

That is true. Some moulds need the lead poured in straight, some need a swirl.

I probably need to listen to Rick and get a ladle.

Ok Rick, any problems getting a #2 ladle into,the RCBS pot with the normal bottom pour Innards in place?

[cbrick]

It will work, I do it with the RCBS pot though most of my casting is with the Magma. Rowell #1 is fine for small boolits but you want to pour lead as I suggested and #1 doesn't hold enough alloy, #2 does.

Rick

[btroj]

Yeah, I would like a Magma pot too. That would make things so much easier.

I suppose an order is in order. Ladle certainly isn't too expensive.

Rick, got a question. How well is a thermocouple probe and a ladle going to fit in the RCBS pot? Never though about it before but how far from the pot wall does a thermocouple need to be? Hmmm

[cbrick]

If your going to pop for a Magma pot it would sure be a shame to not have the PID installed on it. Holds temp to +- 2 degrees and a biggie with the Magma unit is no probes inside the pot to be in the way. It has a nut welded on the center outside bottom of the pot, the sensor wires attach there. Until you try it you can't believe how nice it is to start out with 40 pounds of identical alloy. My Magma gets 40 pounds to casting temp in about 10 minutes longer than the RCBS does 20 pounds.

And only $775 plus shipping. :mrgreen:

I'm sure good at spending other peoples money. I'd spend my own but I don't have any, Magma has it. :veryconfu

Rick

[MT Gianni]

First off, the 9 bullets in the photo were all but one in the major weight ranges or the keepers. Tells me those flaws don't cause much weight loss. Does the void still matter? I don't know. Talk to me.

I sorted by weight and kept 3 weight groupings. They were 188.1 to 189.3, 188.4 to 188.6, and 188.7 to 189.9.

Of the rejected ones the max weight was 189.8 and the lightest was 186.5

I had 29 from 188.1 to 188.3
I had 31 from 188.4 to 188.6
I had 15 from 189.7 to 188.9

I did reject around 5 to 7 the that weighed 188.0

What to do with the keepers? Do I keep them in separate weight groups? Do I combine the two lower weight groups?

I had a measly 38.6 percent keeper rate out of the initial 194 bullets. My technique needs some major work. I need to get the mould hotter to start and keep a better rhythm going. I also need to be better at pouring straight into the cavity as I am using a bottom pour. I did lose a few from inadequate sprue puddle and subsequent flaws in the base.

I would shoot them in three separate groups and keep them segregated. You spent the time to weight sort, now keep the variables as small as possible. There is less than 1 gr shrinkage out of 189 gr overall. Shoot the three groups and compare with ten pulled from all three bags. Should be little difference in all but they are all sorted now so don't waste it.

[cbrick]

Rick, got a question. How well is a thermocouple probe and a ladle going to fit in the RCBS pot? Never though about it before but how far from the pot wall does a thermocouple need to be? Hmmm

Dunno, can't answer that. The only PID I've ever had/used is the Magma and it has no probe in the alloy.

Rick

[geargnasher]

The $40 solution is keep the pot you have and invest in an analog thermometer. The #2 ladle is also excellent, but needs slight modification to the spout. With a thermometer and #2 ladle one can make good boolits with a saucepan and propane burner. The setup doesn't have to be high-tech or expensive to allow you to make superb boolits, spending the money like Rick has is a matter of adding joy and convenience to a hobby once you already know what it is that will serve you well. I'm super-jealous by the way, but the next $800 I spend will be on a lathe, I have a big steel pot, fish cooker, and thermometer to go with my ladle and moulds and it works great as long as my back holds out. I also cast pretty good boolits with a 20-lb Lee bottom pour.

Gear

[cbrick]

It's true, it's hardly a necessity just a joy to use. Mine wasn't $775 either, back when I bought mine the PID was $100 and the pot was like $425.

Yes, I modified my Rowell #2 also though not the spout, it's much handier to use with the handle shortened.

Rick

[Love Life]

Your wife is going to kill you, Brad, if you keep letting cbrick spend your money!!

[bigted]

KEY is a hot enough mold AND top plate/sprue cutter. I accidently found a wonderful and cheap way to heat my molds when desiring to cast with them ... buy a cheap LEE electric smelter. you know ... the 20 dollar electric pot? now take this and set it up at or near your casting pot. I turn both on at the same time and install a clean and ready mold installed on my clamp style handle from Buff Arms and allow the mold to heat as long as the melt takes to melt and be fluxed. now the mold will be too hot sooo ... take it out of the LEE pot and open it and allow it to cool a bit as you continue to stir and get the rest of the impurity's off the top of your up to temp lead.

works wonderful for me every time and the only other thing I would recommend is the flux material;

take about a pee sized ball of your lube ... [boolit lube] ... and use this amount for every 10 lbs of melt ... if you have 20 pounds of melt then use 2 pee sized balls of boolit lube for your flux. it works well and binds the metal very well as the dross comes to the surface to be scooped away with your old spoon.

I cast to within 10th's of a grain and my limit is 1 grain diff for my boolits. as long as they look excellent with nice sharp edges ... I keep em all ... then I weigh all that have passed the perfection LOOK ... meaning sharp edges and nice flat bottom with NO sad effects ANYWHERE. then I weigh every boolit and throw any that go over or under my weight into a container that is marked "sighter's". these will be used to sight in my rifle when I go shoot ... making sure the poi is the same as poa. then the rest are used for actual shooting for score so to speak.

you are going in the correct direction ... just need to refine your casting method a bit to get boolits that are worthy of going your desired speed.