.38 special and BP

[Mik]

Hi guys,

Anyone have any experience loading BP in a .38 special? I'm looking at getting into the BP cartridge game and was wondering if this would be a reasonable starting point. Apparently, this cartridge was originally offered as a BP cartridge?

Mike

[00buck]

I havent loaded any myself but I know some CASS cowboys that do. They work fine.

Lots of smoke and fire! :)

[Mik]

Thank buck.
I just found this thread with a Google search. For some reason I couldn't find it using the forum's search function.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?162479-My-foray-into-38spl-black-powder-loads

[bangerjim]

The 38SPL and 45LC were designed back in the BP era.....I thing in the early 1900's. There should be a bunch of data out there. All my many manuals only address modern smokeless.

I have though of trying it, but the smoke and dirt created by BP is not something I want to deal with in all my 38's and 45's. Now that I am powder coating everything, I spend hardly any time cleaning my guns after a rage visit.

Good luck with your quest! And have fun with that nostalgic load!

banger

[owejia]

Have loaded both 38 spl and 38 s&w with bp. Just compress the powder with the boolit so no air pockets. I compress between 1/16" and 1/8". Fun to shoot, but messy with the bp fouling.

[TXGunNut]

38 spl is the smokeless powder offspring of a bp cartridge, case was made longer to keep folks from firing it in the bp guns. I'm thinking a WC or similar design to help fill the case would be a pretty cool bp load. A traditional RN would leave lots of room for powder if that's what you want.

[bigted]

I shoot bp in my 1861 colt conversion all the time using a 38 SPCL case. I fill it with 2F BP to a point that I can compress the boolit around 1/8th inch compression when the boolit it seated.

they are tons of fun and very accurate when all is done correctly.

hint ... stuff the cylinder end with Crisco after the cylinder is loaded ... this will soften the fouling and as long as your cylinder gap to barrel is .007 to .012 ... you can shoot till the barrel is so hot you cant hold onto it. then just brush off the cylinder front and keep shooting ... maybe swab the bore every 2 or 3 cylinder fulls of shots. another point that I have gleaned from those smarter then myself is to cover the base pin with Mobile-1 synthetic grease ... this enables the cylinder to continue to rotate.

have fun ... and just jump in and give it a try.

[Mik]

Thanks guys. I like the Crisco idea. Seems like everyone recommends compression of the powder. Out of curiosity, what happens if the powder is not compressed. What if there is space between the bullet and powder?

[Driver man]

Thanks guys. I like the Crisco idea. Seems like everyone recommends compression of the powder. Out of curiosity,
what happens if the powder is not compressed. What if there is space between the bullet and powder?
KA BANG.Explosive results. Never leave an air gap with BP. Have seen it once and the shooter was lucky not to be injured

[Mik]

KA BANG.Explosive results. Never leave an air gap with BP. Have seen it once and the shooter was lucky not to be injured

Good to know!

[DangerousDrummer]

I shoot BP in my S&W 38 spl snubbie. It makes a gun that is not fun to shoot fun. Deeper boom, more push, lots of smoke. Mine is SS and I find cleanup quite easy. I havn't pulled the side plate to check cleanliness inside yet, but the gun functions fine still.

[w30wcf]

Thanks guys. I like the Crisco idea. Seems like everyone recommends compression of the powder. Out of curiosity, what happens if the powder is not compressed. What if there is space between the bullet and powder?

There was a long thead on another b.p. forum awhie back about that issue. The answer was "nothing". I have used b.p. and airspace in the .45 Colt just to see what would happen. Less accuracy and heavier fouling was the result. Nothing else.

Consider that way back when the Schuetzen shooters used breech seated bullets and a full case of b.p.topped with a wad to hold the powder in place. There was a bit of airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder (2nd page, 2nd paragraph).
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/blackpowder.jpg

All in all, in a fixed cartridge gun better results will be obtained if the powder is compressed.

w30wcf

[Mik]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

In doing my research, I've noticed one general difference between bp and smokeless cartridge reloading and I don't understand the physics behind it.

In smokeless reloading, everyone is very careful about the type of powder used, the amount, the bullet seating depth, etc etc. because these things all affect pressure. People are reluctant to recommend load data they know to be safe from personal experience and published load data because small mistakes could cause big problems.

On the other hand, with bp reloading, it seems "a case full" is the right amount of powder most of the time. It seems to be the answer even in cartridges not specifically designed for bp. Why is this?

[bigted]

There was a long thead on another b.p. forum awhie back about that issue. The answer was "nothing". I have used b.p. and airspace in the .45 Colt just to see what would happen. Less accuracy and heavier fouling was the result. Nothing else.

Consider that way back when the Schuetzen shooters used breech seated bullets and a full case of b.p.topped with a wad to hold the powder in place. There was a bit of airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder (2nd page, 2nd paragraph).
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/blackpowder.jpg

All in all, in a fixed cartridge gun better results will be obtained if the powder is compressed.

w30wcf


30WCF ... that is an interesting piece. id like to have the whole book if you don't mind sharing with me the title and author ... or is it just what is photo'd in your post?

[w30wcf]

bigted,
It is from a B.P. pamphlet from DuPont.
Here are the other pages I have.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/blackpowdercharges.jpg

w30wcf

[ksfowler166]

On the other hand, with bp reloading, it seems "a case full" is the right amount of powder most of the time. It seems to be the answer even in cartridges not specifically designed for bp. Why is this?
Modern fire arms MAP and proof pressure are so far above and beyond what can be produced with bp that it is virtually impossible to damage a gun or yourself through excessive pressure. I reload shotshells so I will use a comparison that I know. Black powder generally produces about 5,500-6,000 psi while a 12ga 2 3/4" or 3" has a max average pressure of 11,500psi with a proof pressure in excess of 14,000psi. So you would have to double the pressure before you even though about hurting your firearm and much more before you destroyed it.

On a side note you might want to try the butter flavored Crisco I hear to smells like popcorn when shot.

[bigted]

thankyou for that. would like to find the whole booklet but went to Google and batted out. will continue some other time.

[Nobade]

That does make me wonder though, was the grain size the same as what we use now or was it smaller? A lot of those small cartridges would normally be loaded with FFFg now, rather than Fg. Or maybe we are trying to juice them up a bit and would get better results with coarser powder?

Oh, I am with DangerousDrummer here - my S&W 642 Airweight is no fun at all with heavy smokeless loads, but like Doritos with BP loads - everybody wants to try it, and can't seem to stop. And it will run 50 rounds pretty hot and fast before it starts to get sticky. Sure is a lot easier to clean up compared to shooting with smokeless too.

-Nobade

[str8shot426]

I have an old metal can of dupont ffffg. Could this be used in metal cases? or is it for priming only?

[w30wcf]

thankyou for that. would like to find the whole booklet but went to Google and batted out. will continue some other time.

bigted,
I had scanned the four of the eight pages with the best information. I'll see if I can find it in my stuff in the next week or so and scan the 8 pages into a PDF which I can email to you if you PM your email address.

Although it is not dated, I'm thinking it is from around 1920-1930 ot thereabouts........

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

That does make me wonder though, was the grain size the same as what we use now or was it smaller? A lot of those small cartridges would normally be loaded with FFFg now, rather than Fg. Or maybe we are trying to juice them up a bit and would get better results with coarser powder?
-Nobade

Nobade,
I have wondered too about the large grain size recommendation for some of the smaller cartridges. As far as I can tell from my research, the grain sizes are pretty close to what we have today in Swiss & Schuetzen powders which is typically somewhat smaller than present day Goex.

w30wcf

[ksfowler166]

I have an old metal can of dupont ffffg. Could this be used in metal cases? or is it for priming only?
That would be a bad idea my friend 4F is to be used only for priming. Though you might be able to utilize 4F for priming cases loaded with the hard to ignite substitute black powders.