Which Bullet

[TX BOOMER]

There is no doubt this will stir the pot . Seeing that next deer season will be a first for me hunting with a handgun , I would like to know which bullet you guys think would fit the bill. I shoot a 45LC with a 7 1/2 barrel . :Fire:

[spurrit]

Hornady soft hollow point or XTP seems to get the best reviews from those in the know, as far as jacketed bullets.
I know everyone lauds shooting super heavy bullets, but I have never seen anything bad about using the 250 gr. bullets. (I know, cause I have a box of each, and I looked.)
I've also heard good things on the similar offering from Berger and about the Barnes XPB, but they're kinda steep.

[spurrit]

BTW, here in Kansas, we HAVE to use an expanding bullet, and I'm not about to stand out in the field debating wether a cast bullet with a soft nose is an expanding bullet when I could just grab a red box and solve the problem.

[scb]

I've had good luck with Lyman's old stand-by 454424.

[Cayoot]

I really like both the 452424 and the rcbs 45-270 SAA. Either one over 19 grains of 4227 really is accurate in my 7 1/2 inch Blackhawk and will penetrate anything that prowls here in the Frozen Northwoods!

[Lloyd Smale]

depends on what weight your looking for. Its hard to make a general statement as to which bullet is best because every gun will shoot differntly but two bullets ive had great luck with in all my 45s are the rcbs 300 swcgc and the 255 rcbs swc. But rcbs has seen fit to change the design of the 255 and the new one is a dud. But then i consider the 452424 and 270 rcbs bullet duds too. neither of them has ever given me the best accuaracy any gun was capable of. Especially the 452424.
Im hoping the new group buy molds is the majic bullet. Ive got lots of good shooting mid weight 44 bullets but 45 bullets that really work seem to be alot harder to come by.

[StrawHat]

I really like both the 452424 and the rcbs 45-270 SAA. Either one over 19 grains of 4227 really is accurate in my 7 1/2 inch Blackhawk and will penetrate anything that prowls here in the Frozen Northwoods!

I load the 424 Keith bullet over a full case of black powder and get through adn through penetration.

Next year will be the first time I try the 45-270 (group buy) with the same load. Don't see how it will be any different.

Good luck.

[44man]

Lloyd is expressing my feelings about the semi wadcutter---(How are we doing so much agreeing lately?)
For going cheap and getting a great shooting boolit you can't go wrong with the Lee C452-300-RF. For a lighter one try the 452-255-RF.
I will never buy another Keith style mold because they are so different and so hard to get great accuracy from. The molds I have now are only used for light plinking loads that I shoot so few of anyway, it doesn't matter. I just save lead with them and pop tin cans at close range.
If you have a Keith and gun that will do 1" or under at 50 yd's, don't part with either because you will never find another combination. About the best I can do is 3" or more with any I have.
I have had several over the years and made the mistake of selling things off. Never to be duplicated again! :???:
Sorry guys but I feel the same about the Keith as I do about LLA. It is so easy to beat both that neither is worth fooling with. I am old and lazy and with a good boolit and lube I can find the load I want in 15 minutes of shooting.
By the way I have shot the Lee 300 gr into an inch at 75 yd's a bunch of times from my Vaquero. Same with the 335 gr LBT WLNGC and the Lyman 452651.
I made a WFN mold one day for grins and finally started shooting it before deer season. It weighs 330 gr's and turned out to be super accurate so I killed my last deer with it at 55 yd's.

[Bass Ackward]

Bullet selection is clouded by false accuracy standards. Hunting accuracy is different from target accuracy and some people don't understand this.

At close range, (handgun range) every bullet is just as accurate as another if you learn how to make it fit and work. How do I know that? Because if every factory mold was inaccurate for everybody that bought it over the decades, it would soon have been off the market. Some of these are considered classic designs, which means they worked for a lot of guns over the years. Now why? False accuracy standards is a big reason.

Accuracy is or should be a secondary concern to effectiveness for hunting with handguns. The kill zone or the heart of a deer is 4" minimum. And only a small amount of shots actually hit this mark anyway, so the kill zone is actually a lot larger than that. Therefore, all you need is 4" accuracy at the range your ability will allow you to shoot the animal and you have the finest hunting accuracy necessary for deer.

So for me, the softest bullet, 200 grains or more that you can mold and shoot that achieves that accuracy standard or better, with a strike velocity over 800 fps when it gets there, will be the peak hunting and killing cast bullet you can ever launch in ANY wheelgun platform regardless of diameter or power. That is, unless you use the added accuracy advantage for head shot use only. If you don't, it's wasted accuracy when you really could have gone with a softer bullet.

So if you are considering starting out handgun hunting, the most flexibility to go soft(er) occurs with GC designs until you learn how to do it with PB. You shoot very little when hunting, so check cost is minimal after you develop the load. Learn the PB game when you have time and the target won't suffer for your mistakes.

[TX BOOMER]

ok , maybe I asked the wrong question. Because as of right now the numbers you are giving me are great and I know they are mold numbers and that's about it. I guess I should of asked what style of bullet you thought would be good to hunt with out of my 45LC. I think I want to shoot a 260 gr or up to a 300 gr. So now lets see where this question go's. :Fire:

[leftiye]

Flat nose, or hollow point. Semi wadcutter, or better - RFP. Boolits can be made to expand, but if as you say you don't want to have to try to convince a game cop that they really do expand, use an XTP. Can't be beat for the money, do much damage.

[mroliver77]

I agree with 44man the Lee RF is an easy boolit to load. I felt like a heritic and tried diferent "Keith" bullets and kept going back to the Lee. I prefer more meplat though for huntining. I have a 325 rf that drops at 333gr and I bump the nose a little fatter. At around 1250fps it pokes big holes all the way through deer and lets the life drain out both sides. I sure like the looks of your boolit 44man! Jay

[S.R.Custom]

Hornady soft hollow point or XTP seems to get the best reviews from those in the know, as far as jacketed bullets.

+1 there... This isn't going to endear me to my cast bullet hunting friends, but I know of no cast bullet that performs as well as a hunting bullet as the jacketed Hornady XTP. Precious few jacketed bullets do either, for that matter.

[44man]

On top of that, the XTP is perhaps the most accurate bullet made. I wish they were being made when I shot IHMSA, but the Hornady 240 silhouette bullet worked for that.

[Lloyd Smale]

i agree and disagree. Some of the hands down most accurate load in my handguns are with swcs. Im a little old school and there my favorite bullets. I dont buy into the rf suggestion as much as you as ive had about the same luck with them as swc. Some shoot some dont. I also dont agree with the xtp being the altimate anything bullet. Its a fine jacketed bullet but no better then many ohters on game or for accuracy. If i had to lump all handgun bullets together. All designs and both jacketed and cast and had to pick the most user freindly one. (and ill even throw rifles into the mix) it would hands down be a lfn bullet with a gas check. I have casted enough and shot enough to about know that when i pick up an lfn mold it will about allways be a good bullet. by good im saying that it will not only be good at 25 yards but good to about any distance and also be hard to beat as a hunting bullet. If i took all my loading data for all my handguns and looked it over id bet that an lfn at least ties for best shooting bullet in each and every one of them.
Lloyd is expressing my feelings about the semi wadcutter---(How are we doing so much agreeing lately?)
For going cheap and getting a great shooting boolit you can't go wrong with the Lee C452-300-RF. For a lighter one try the 452-255-RF.
I will never buy another Keith style mold because they are so different and so hard to get great accuracy from. The molds I have now are only used for light plinking loads that I shoot so few of anyway, it doesn't matter. I just save lead with them and pop tin cans at close range.
If you have a Keith and gun that will do 1" or under at 50 yd's, don't part with either because you will never find another combination. About the best I can do is 3" or more with any I have.
I have had several over the years and made the mistake of selling things off. Never to be duplicated again! :???:
Sorry guys but I feel the same about the Keith as I do about LLA. It is so easy to beat both that neither is worth fooling with. I am old and lazy and with a good boolit and lube I can find the load I want in 15 minutes of shooting.
By the way I have shot the Lee 300 gr into an inch at 75 yd's a bunch of times from my Vaquero. Same with the 335 gr LBT WLNGC and the Lyman 452651.
I made a WFN mold one day for grins and finally started shooting it before deer season. It weighs 330 gr's and turned out to be super accurate so I killed my last deer with it at 55 yd's.

[44man]

Lloyd, I am going to tell you a secret so don't pass it on! :mrgreen: All of my .44 boolits from the molds I made are LFN's. So are most for my other calibers.
I never liked the WFN because I started to read how hard they are to shoot at long range so for the heck of it I made a bunch for my other guns, .45, .475 and 45-70. They shoot as good and sometimes better and are easy to work with. I now like both.
Yes, I said the Keith can shoot super if you find the right match but it is still harder to do. Just because a mold maker has one that looks like a Keith does not make it one. Elmer did a lot of work on it and would grit his teeth if he seen all the ones made now. Pretty is does not make pretty does!
Bass, we will forever be apart on hunting accuracy. I will forever feel that is the most important thing to look for when an animals life is concerned. Performance of the boolit on game can be altered without giving up accuracy. In my book, there is no "good enough." I want the boolit to go to my sights, not 4" off. Any boolit that won't do that is not used on game. There is enough of a problem with holding steady to add in poor groups.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, we will forever be apart on hunting accuracy. I will forever feel that is the most important thing to look for when an animals life is concerned. Performance of the boolit on game can be altered without giving up accuracy. In my book, there is no "good enough." I want the boolit to go to my sights, not 4" off. Any boolit that won't do that is not used on game. There is enough of a problem with holding steady to add in poor groups.



Jim,

You have to get passed the idea that hunting is the same as shooting. You shoot your deer. You .... don't really hunt them. The guy said handgun "hunting". :grin:

If you say that 1/2" 50 yards groups are mandatory for deer, then you will eliminate every single handgun hunter past, present, or future. It's good for the gun to shoot that well, but the hunters don't. Groups shot from a field location will be lucky to hold 4" at 50 yards to include yours unless that stand has a benchrest. Therefore, 4" at 50 yards is 2" at 25 which is fairly good from an off hand position.

I have shot literally hundreds of deer over the years with handguns and rifles. I find meplat size to have absolutely zero difference for killing effect from 44 caliber on up. I have 50% meplats and I have used 80% meplats and all deer traveled roughly the same and bled the same. Holes were roughly the same when shots were placed in similar locations. Once a meplat gets up to a certain size, going over that means very little at handgun velocities. For hundreds of years, guys never had a meplat. Bullet weight and adequate velocity for the metal hardness does the work.

I will bet that if you handed your gun to me to load it for you and you shot a deer with bullets loaded the same and of equal weight, you couldn't tell me what style of bullet or meplat size it was by the reaction of the deer little alone if it was even your ammo.

And wife shot 1 deer, twice this year with Hornady 240 grain Hornady XTPs and neither bullet exited. I figure strike velocity was around 1200 fps as the muzzle was @ 1350. She couldn't tell that it was hit the first shot (standing). One broke up into a zazillion bits. I have a shelf full of expanded 240 XTPs recovered from deer over the years, but not a single cast slug. Not one.

[spurrit]

Bullet selection is clouded by false accuracy standards. Hunting accuracy is different from target accuracy and some people don't understand this.

At close range, (handgun range) every bullet is just as accurate as another if you learn how to make it fit and work. How do I know that? Because if every factory mold was inaccurate for everybody that bought it over the decades, it would soon have been off the market. Some of these are considered classic designs, which means they worked for a lot of guns over the years. Now why? False accuracy standards is a big reason.

Accuracy is or should be a secondary concern to effectiveness for hunting with handguns. The kill zone or the heart of a deer is 4" minimum. And only a small amount of shots actually hit this mark anyway, so the kill zone is actually a lot larger than that. Therefore, all you need is 4" accuracy at the range your ability will allow you to shoot the animal and you have the finest hunting accuracy necessary for deer.

So for me, the softest bullet, 200 grains or more that you can mold and shoot that achieves that accuracy standard or better, with a strike velocity over 800 fps when it gets there, will be the peak hunting and killing cast bullet you can ever launch in ANY wheelgun platform regardless of diameter or power. That is, unless you use the added accuracy advantage for head shot use only. If you don't, it's wasted accuracy when you really could have gone with a softer bullet.

So if you are considering starting out handgun hunting, the most flexibility to go soft(er) occurs with GC designs until you learn how to do it with PB. You shoot very little when hunting, so check cost is minimal after you develop the load. Learn the PB game when you have time and the target won't suffer for your mistakes.


Bass Ackwards,

You seem to have that bass awackwards.

That was an awful lot of words to say accuracy doesn't matter. Cast bullets will never perform as well as jacketed on deer sized game. Period. Some will be more accurate, but expansion will suck. Handguns are inherently less accurate thant rifles, so it's our duty to make sure we're as accurate as possible.

With a rifle, you can kill with FMJ's, but you need accuracy to do it. With the best bullet in the world, poorly hit game will always get away. It's the same for handguns, archery, slingshots, whatever. Accuracy is paramount.

[felix]

Spurrit, how accurate must your system (gun, ammo, person) be before you go deer hunting? What group size must you have, in other words, before you leave on your trip? At what yardage? Inquiring minds want to know what you really and trully will do for such an endeavor. ... felix

[spurrit]

Felix,

I limit my handgun shots to bowhunting range or less. What size groups you choose to be satisfied with are your choice.

I'll not shoot past a distance at which I can shoot a sub 4" group.(this obviously varies by bullet and load.) Buck fever can easily turn that group to 6".

That said, I am not yet a true handgun hunter. I carry a rifle, and use my handgun for the "Dorfs" of the game world.

[Cayoot]

Cast bullets will never perform as well as jacketed on deer sized game. Period. Some will be more accurate, but expansion will suck.

I have to say that I disagree with a basic premise in this statement.

It seems to me that you define boolit performance (on the animal) as expansion.

I don't think it is appropriate to define it so narrowly. If you were only talking about jacketed bullets, then I would agree, expansion is paramount. However, I don't believe expansion is necessary for cast boolits to perform well.

I think the performance is a product of the following factors:
1 Meplat
2 Penetration
3 Tracking (Ability of the boolit to travel in a straight line, regardless of the tissue
it encounters)
4 Tissue damage (This is accomplished, I believe, through the "tearing"
and "crunching" effect that a wide, heavy lead meplat has on bone and soft
tissue)

When the above stated actions occur on a predictable, regular basis, I believe that the boolit can be counted to "perform" very well.

The above listed factors reliably occur when using a large,heavy, lead boolit with a reasonably large meplat moving at moderate velocities. This is why I believe that cast boolits can, and usually do perform as well as jacketed boolits.

If, on the other hand, you really believethat only an expanding bullet will kill game effectively, then cast boolits don't work, and we need to tell millions of bison that were killed with cast lead boolits that they aren't dead after all!

[waksupi]

I don't kjnow where you get, that cast isn't as good as jacketed bullets. i have had virtually the same reaction to a shot, regardless of which is used. If put in the proper place, they die.
There is a book , Dangerous Game Rifles. It states that ammunition producers have been trying to duplicate the performance of cast bullets for over a hundred years. Jackets only came into existance, when higher velocities came along, and not enough knowledge of how to make the cast do the job at those speeds. We now know how to do that.

[felix]

Spurrit, thanks for your reply. It appears your accuracy standard is equivalent to what BassAckwards said. And, I agree whole heartedly about the 6 inch standard with excitement on board, even though I am not a hunter. Deer kill zones don't seem to me to be more that than of humans, and yet the high dollar sniper scopes work on a 10 inch indication (circle "cross" hairs) at a hunnert. So you and BA are both with reason for deer hunting expectations. However, my targets are typically 1/2 inch in diameter at a hunnert, and I will accept accuracy at the 3/4 inch arena for a successful outing by choosing larger targets. BassAckwards prolly does not do this kind of shooting per outing, but I am sure, from reading his posts over several years, he will call anything over two inches not an accurate situation. Keep in mind, I am talking total system here. ... felix

[spurrit]

.... and yet the high dollar sniper scopes work on a 10 inch indication (circle "cross" hairs) at a hunnert. ... felix

Huh? That makes no sense. Maybe if all scope had the same reticle, field of view, and power, this would be so. If you're discussing milradians, I can see where you're going with this, but you're wrong.

[44man]

Bass, all the deer I shot with the 240 XTP (two to be exact) left me with the boolits too. (Only ribs hit.) I would never use less then the 300 gr if it was all I had to use. They are the exact reason I went to the WLN for hunting.
However, like I said, they ARE extremely accurate. They are the only jacketed bullet that DID get me to 1/2" at 50.
No I don't go for 1/2" groups for deer, just the most accurate a boolit I choose will shoot. I can't help it that most will do an inch at 50. :mrgreen: I sure am not going to reduce that accuracy so it is good enough for deer! [smilie=1: Besides, I have shot too many deer out to just beyond 100 yd's with my revolvers so I sure do not want 4" at 50! :Fire:My first deer this last season was at 45 yd's and the next 2 were at 55 yd's so no, I didn't need the extreme accuracy just to hit the deer. But I had to shoot through small openings in the brush and trees and THAT is where confidence in a load comes in. I find the opening a deer is heading for and when he gets there I know my boolit is going through without hitting tree limbs.
If I would get a standing shot at 80 to 100 yd's I know where the boolit is going too.
Some say I should not shoot that far but I can and do, do it. Of course I like 20 yd shots too like everyone else, except when gun season opens here those are few and far between.
I am sure anything you load for me would kill a deer for me but would I be limited to 20 yd's? :confused:
Then some of the discussion was about whether a WFN is accurate not if it killed better then the WLN. Most of my deer have been killed with the WLN and I only got into the WFN stuff to prove that they are just as accurate and some even more so then other boolits and they DO shoot long range and I mean REALLY long range!
I also have Keith (Style.) boolits that cut nice oval holes at 50 yd's with any load from pipsqueek to full house. Any alloy too. They are almost throat size. I wonder how sideways they are at 100, can't tell because I can't hit anything down there with them. :drinks:

[felix]

Spurrit, I am saying you should spend more time shooting to obtain your experience rather than reading/hearing about things in lieu of actual experience. I realize cost is a factor in your situation, so I need to be a little more lax about your lackadaisical accuracy standard. ... felix

[felix]

Now you got my sport, 44man! I pick out those small targets anywhere between 80 and 120 yards, and quite a few of them are surrounded and/or covered by twigs that are even smaller, say 1/8 inch, the size of the dot in my BR scope. Those I pick off first to obtain a more clear shot at the bottle cap (for example) turned sideways, more or less. Sometimes I can shoot 10 shots clearing the required path to the object. It takes strong concentration these days for me to hit a limb that small in diameter, but if that what it takes, that is what I do. ... felix

[spurrit]

Spurrit, I am saying you should spend more time shooting to obtain your experience rather than reading/hearing about things in lieu of actual experience. I realize cost is a factor in your situation, so I need to be a little more lax about your lackadaisical accuracy standard. ... felix

YAY! I found a gun snob! Anyone wanna trade for a spit cup full of spent primers?

[Bass Ackward]

That was an awful lot of words to say accuracy doesn't matter.

Cast bullets will never perform as well as jacketed on deer sized game. Period. Accuracy is paramount.


Spurrit,


That's .... not what I said. Let's look at what history says about accuracy and if it supports your view.

When this country was settled, more game was killed by your forefathers who killed deer and everything else with muzzle loaders and lead. Most of these guns were "without rifling or sights". Think about that. And when they got sights, most weren't adjustable. What size groups do you suppose they shot? Bear in mind if they didn't get it, they didn't eat. Look how many men were killed by the same setup over the centuries.

So history tells us shooter ability and hunting skill are what mattered most over the centuries cause extreme accuracy wasn't a reality. And since both shooter and hunter skill is a fading art, we grab for "superior accuracy". Truth? Or crutch?

If you want to argue that jacketed results will be better for the majority of 100 shooters because cast are more difficult to understand and require more from the shooter, I will agree 100%. But it all depends on the shooter and how well he tested before he attempted to use what he thought he understood. See, I have lost more deer with jacketed than with cast over the years, so obviously, I disagree now. But I did have your opinion once awhile back too, maybe I'll get it back again someday.

[Swamprat1052]

I dont usually get into these things because I lack experience with handgun hunting. But I have killed my share of deer and other game with a rifle, a lot of it with a Ruger 44 Carbine back in La. I doubt that little rifle ever shot better than a 3" or 4" group at 100 yds but I dont ever remember losing a deer I hit with it. At the ranges we are talking about here a slow moving heavy bullet of nearly any kind will kill deer effectivly and humanely if you hit him in the vitals. And the vitals of a deer are easily within a 6" area, probably nearer 12". Thats how all these folks kill em with bows and that handgun bullet is more than capable. I plan on hunting deer with my Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt and I sure dont feel undergunned or inadequate with it, even though I dont claim to be an expert pistol shot. I can hit a 6" steel plate with it at the range at a little over 50 yds and where I come from, thats venison. LIke Bass said, hunting is a lot more than shooting. I have killed enough game that its not about killing anything anymore. I like the idea of having to be closer to make a kill or I'd use my 270 loaded with Barnes or Nosler bullets. Even with that I dont claim to be able to hit a deer in the head at 100 yds. I can shoot 1/2" groups with that rifle easy enough, but most of the time a deer doesnt give you a chance at precision. It all boils back down to that kill zone, put a good bullet there and you'll be eating backstrap.

I dont know what a gun snob is, but if what I have read on this thread makes you one, count me in.

Swamprat

[spurrit]

Swamprat,

The variety of gunsnob most often seen starts a discussion, is shown that he's wrong, then starts bragging about benchrest shooting, or how much he spent on his scope/rifle, despite the fact that it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.

You also see it a lot in SASS. Someone gets caught jabbering, and they start throwing out dollar figures about how much money they spenton their leather, their motorhome, or to have a brand new gun worked over, without ever even trying it out. They're a gunsmith's dream, as they generally have no idea whether any work was even done.

[Swamprat1052]

HUH?????

Swamprat

[Bass Ackward]

However, like I said, they ARE extremely accurate. They are the only jacketed bullet that DID get me to 1/2" at 50.


Jim,

I am not arguing only stating opinion. We can each do as we please and believe what we want. We all hunt differently. And I probably get the anal award for accuracy. Whether I always achieve it or not, I'm always trying. :grin:

Many loads I develop from a bench are educational and rewarding, but I don't shoot them any better off hand than loads that group double in size. So working or hunting accuracy for me is different than bench or "best" accuracy.... " IF " and "WHEN" game PERFORMANCE needs to be sacrificed to "try" and get it.

A 2" load that expands or "might expand" is better for my hunting than a 1/2"er that definitely won't. That's what lead history and my own experience teaches me.

That's what I stated.

[Wicky]

Thought I might add my 20 cents - handgun hunting is a no no in Aus but, there is always a but, I do culling for a couple of stations (ranches) out in the desert shooting Camels and Donkeys. I have the use of the properties 44 Ruger Blackhawk. I use 240 gn SWC, Lyman #2 lead in front of 23.5gns 296. accuracy is about 3 inches at 50 metres and chest shots at a maximum of 75 metres will bring down the biggest bull. I have never shot a deer but I can't see them being any tougher to bring down.
A caveat - I will not use the handgun if they are alerted to my presence they are one tough animal when the adreneline kicks in!!

[44man]

Well, Wicky, our deer are pretty small and one at 60, 70 or more yd's REALLY looks small. If I am in a tree stand they seem to shrink even more! :confused: Most run 120# to 175# for adult deer.
But for Felix and Bass, both of you know I am a NUT! [smilie=w: Not a snob and won't spend a dime on a gun trying to make it better. So I have to admit I do nothing but shoot for fun all year and try to make my guns and loads more accurate plus about all I shoot are hunting boolits. It just rubs off into hunting season.
I am going to accuse both of you of being accuracy nuts too---so there! :drinks:

[felix]

Accuracy: You can reach out and touch to satisfaction that predetermined something. Be it a deer, donkey, beer can, bottle cap, and, for the true accuracy nut/snob, another boolit hole. ... felix

[waksupi]

Spurrit, I am getting a very distinct impression, you haven't shot cast bullets all that much? I start gathering that thought after your first post in this subject, recommending various jacketed bullets, in particular commercial hollowpoints that have been known to have a pretty poor record in the field.

[Bret4207]

Spurrit- Better be careful about the old guys you start picking on. Some of them have forgotten more than we'll ever learn. It ain't snobbery if you can do it, have done it and can do it again!

[longbow]

Well, I guess I will add my 2 cents worth too.

I have to start by saying that hangun hunting is not allowed in Canada so I have no experience at all. Also, While I have hunted I am not as accomplished a hunter as many (probably most) here. I am more of a recreational shooter, plinker and amatuer ballistician.

However, I do know a fair bit about boolit casting, alloys and performance.

Most of my experience is with:

- muzzleloaders
- .308 Winchester
- .45-70
- .303 British
- .44 mag.
- shotgun

It seems to me that while there are differences of opinion going on here there is also agreement on end results. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think Bass is saying "Go hunting with an inaccurate gun or boolit". He is saying that you don't need bench rest accuracy to hunt with, you need enough accuracy to get the boolit where it needs to go (vitals) at the range you are hunting and terminal performance to get the job done.

Obviously the more accurate a gun/load/boolit is the better if terminal performance adequate. There is always going to be shooter error making groups larger so maximum acceptable group size at the range being hunted and terminal performance to quickly terminate the animal would seem to be the goal.

Many here use hard cast boolits with varying sizes of meplat and claim equivalent or superior terminal performance to "J" bullets. I can't personally add anything here as I have no experience at all hunting with hard cast boolits but I believe what I read from Knowledgable people like Bass, 44man, Cayoot and many others.

If a certain gun/boolit combination requires a hard cast boolit to be accurate enough to hunt with and you want or need an expanding boolit that is pretty easy to accomplish:

- Soften the nose of the hard boolit ~ there are posts on this site and articles have been written about this, it is pretty easy to do and you can use you favourite boolit.

- Soft nose boolit mould ~ Lyman used to offer these and I have seen others

- Use a small dipper and cast a soft lead nose then fill the rest with hard alloy for the body body and water quench or oven heat treat ~ you can do this with your favourite mould and have hard driving bands with an expanding nose. I did this about 30 years ago with several boolits and did some penetration testing with a Lyman 457125 with soft lead nose to the first driving band then wheelweights for the body. Shot 'em into wood, dirt, sand - got tremendous expansion and didn't lose a nose. They mushroomed back to the hard body.

This was with a full "J" bullet load out of an 8 x 57 Siamese Mauser converted to .45-70. No leading and good accuracy.

Is it easier to get extreme accuracy with a "J" boolit - probably.

Can you get extreme accuracy with cast boolits? Yes - it may not be as easy as with "J" bullets but I find it more fun.

Can cast boolits equal the accuracy and terminal performance of "J" bullets? I think so - certainly with large bore handgun and rifle loads. Maybe a little more difficult with small bores and high velocities.

Gun snobs on this site? I don't think so. I have found this to be a very knowledgable, helpful and generous group of people.

Okay, maybe 4 cents worth.

Longbow

[44man]

Nope, no snobs, just good natured jabs, digs and fun---don't you see all the smileys! :mrgreen:
I sit down here in the basement while the wife watches those goofy football, basketball and bowling upstairs. I am glad to have all of you to bicker with because I don't dare do it with her. :drinks:

[jefats]

A 260 grain Keith SWC does it for me. I load it to 950 f/s in a OM Ruger.

Jim

[murph]

I am going to jump in here with another perspective. I'm really new to this site and have been browsing through the forums reading comments. I have been hand loading since the 80's and casting both rifle and hand gun loads and experimenting with lubes and alloys and inventing my own combinations. What I would like to emphasize is that if you haven't noticed components for hand loading are going up big time. Frankly, I am getting pretty close to being priced out of the market, especially for bullets. So, when the cost becomes prohibitive for my meager income, how do I keep shooting? I got to find substitutes. I can substitute everything so far except primers and I am working on that.

As for cast bullet accuracy being less than jacketed, I say BS. I will free hand 44 mag pistol at 100 yards coffee can dance any day with cast bullets. As far as game killing, placement is always all important but if you want expansion with high velocity lead bullets, that can be done too by casting soft points, which while is a bit tedious, can be done and works well. Last test I did with 44 mag wheel gun with a brinnel 22 base and pure lead nose penetrated 17" of soaked phone book at 30 yards and came out a hole 4" in diameter. The same loads in a scoped 44 lever action Ruger cloverleafed at 50 yards.

By the way, anyone know where I can find the old Lyman 2 part mold for .45 cal. I have it for .357 and .44 and they work fine for me.

[Forester]

I wrote this whole response twice because the whole issue is both important to me and more than a little unsettled.

This whole post is predicated on bullet use for deer size/toughness game.

Bullet choice is pretty use and caliber specific. I would be unsatisfied with a 30 caliber or smaller bullet that did not expand regardless of whether it was a jacketed or cast bullet.

In the larger calibers most of us choose to use I don't think expansion matters a whit. If you recover a .308" bullet that has passed through a deer and weight 90% of its original weight, expanded to .458" most of us would say that was darn good bullet performance. If the bullet enters at .458 and only flattens just a little before passing through how is that worse performance? I would rather have 2 half inch holes than one and a half!

The accuracy issue is a different animal. Let me first say that I see "nerves" and "buck fever" and similar terms as not much more than so many excuses for poor performance by the shooter, not something to try and account for. Would any of us turn down a 1"@100yrd load for one that shoots into 4" with the same bullet? Of course not...and heres the thing, bullet choice is irrelevant...

If you stay within the confines of the load. If you have 4" accuracy at 100 yards, you darn well better not take a shot that requires more than that. The hunter has an obligation to know when a shot is beyond his or his equipment's ability. If you can shoot your Ruger#1 into 3 inches at 350yards, then by all means go for it. You earned it with superior ability and a good load. If you can't hit a 6" plate at 50 you better not try that 60 yard shot.

If you have a small bullet that does not expand you have handicapped yourself to a much smaller than 6" target, you have to make a head, spine, or major artery shot. That’s fine if you can do it, and you have the opportunity in a hunting situation. I killed a deer a year ago with a .308 diameter cast boolit that I knew full well would not expand, but at 20 yards I knew I could make the shot I needed to make. Larger bullet, larger target area. If I poke a .458" hole through both sides of any deer, in a vital area its not going to go far.

My best case scenario I suppose would be a large diameter boolit that expands to some small degree but always passes through the target and shoots into one hole on paper.

[spurrit]

Spurrit, I am getting a very distinct impression, you haven't shot cast bullets all that much? I start gathering that thought after your first post in this subject, recommending various jacketed bullets, in particular commercial hollowpoints that have been known to have a pretty poor record in the field.

I recommended the jacketed bullets because they are all I'll use for big game here, since the law demands expanding bullets for big game, and I'm not gonna stand there and argue with a Fish and Game officer over whether soft nosed cast bullets are expanding bullets.

As for the "Gun Snob" comment, that was mostly about someone saying I must not shoot much because, in their opinion, I can't afford it.

On shooting cast bullets, I only shoot about a box of jacketed a year. All the rest are cast.

[Bass Ackward]

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think Bass is saying "Go hunting with an inaccurate gun or boolit". He is saying that you don't need bench rest accuracy to hunt with, you need enough accuracy to get the boolit where it needs to go (vitals) at the range you are hunting and terminal performance to get the job done.


Exactly.

I do want a bullet that will deform or expand somewhat and will use a a soft enough bullet for the velocity to ensure that .... can happen. If I have to sacrifice some accuracy or even some velocity in the process to get working, huntable accuracy until I can perfect a load later which may take years, then that is the way I go every time.

So regardless of how macho it is to use a plain base design, the highest velocity, with the softest slug, with the best multiple opportunities for accuracy using the widest powder range, statistically occurs with gas checked designs. Since the best chance for expansion occurs at the highest velocity, this is exactly why GC designs proliferated after they began use on handgun designs. And that's where I think beginners should start first. An experienced guy can do what he wants.

We are what we experience. Just for the record, the only deer I ever lost with cast was with a 458X2 using a 375 gr LBT. Water dropped that bullet at 1350 fps was 1/2" at 100. Soften that slug and 2" was more common. The hard, 1/2 load lost me the only three deer I ever lost with cast. At 8 BHN or less, deer drop in mere steps if not at the shot with that slug. But that is true of almost any other regardless of meplat size.