.45 Colt dies again?

[Changeling]

I recently brought this question up concerning the die makers not making .45 Colt dies to SAAMI chamber specifications and really did not receive an answer that satisfied me. Sinse then I have seen some reloads that look like H%*l.
I have emailed Redding 2 months ago, no answer I think because they have there NEW die out that corrects the problem/SAMMI specification for $100.00 Plus!

I emailed Hornady/ RCBS and Lee today for there consideration and replys, to soon to hear replies.

I do believe that the die makers should be responsible for following SAAMI chamber specifications, if not, why not just open everything up to "Whatever", it didn't seem to bother some, but it bothers me. I like to know there are standards that must be folowed by the industries tool manufactuers, not just to some cases but all! Thats why they are called standards.

However does anyone know if one of the Major manufactuers makes there sizing dies correctly without charging another 1 to $200.00 to do it?

You probably won't read this as usual but I really don't care that your dies are perfect and you don't see a problem!:x

[Outpost75]

In .45 Colt I have been using the RCBS .45 Colt /Schofield Cowboy dies in the brown box. They do not size the brass excessively, and came with two expander plugs, one for .452 bullets and the other for .454, the expanders themselves being 0.002" less than bullet diameter, as they should be, with a 30 degree flared section.

I have had the same problems as you with .45 Auto Rim and have addressed that issue effectively by using the .45 Colt / Schofield Cowboy carbide sizer and expander die, and I ordered from Midway an old fashioned RCBS roll crimp seater for .45 ACP and Auto Rim, which was in stock as a standard item and I did not have to special order it. As I recall the price was reasonable too.

[Wally]

I have two .45 Colt sizer dies...one is a Lyman Carbide the other an RCBS steel.....the later doesn't size the rim portion of the case as much as does the carbide...the case then has a slight taper on it and fits my Ruger Blackhawk chambers better...while the carbide sized cases are fit far more loosely. I now only use the steel sizer die. I bought the RCBS steel sizer die for $12.00, used.

[44MAG#1]

At what point did the normal run of dies become a problem for you? Is it a real problem or a problem that exist more in your mind than in actuality?

[Silver Jack Hammer]

This is a very real problem in the .45 Colt. I've been looking for a solution for some time with no luck. Dave Scovill addressed it in his recent book. The taper of the chamber is not matched in re sizing dies.

[DougGuy]

Some of the chambers are cut larger than others as well. Some Rugers have huge charge holes, some can be .487" at the rear of the cylinder, some are closer to .481" it just depends on when yours was made how they were doing them at that point in time. There are 80s production runs that ejected empties are really bulged above the web, and other more recent runs are fairly uniform. If you send in an 80s gun and they re-cylinder it, you will get a cylinder from current production and it may be a lot tighter than the original cylinder, as was the case with the 1990s Vaquero I sent them in 2013, the cylinder I got back was a lot more uniform and exhibited none of the bulged empties that I have seen from earlier guns.

I don't have a problem with straight sized cases if the cylinder is not excessively tapered.

[MtGun44]

I specifically purchased an older set of RCBS steel dies to avoid overworking the base of
the case in this slightly tapered cartridge which everyone has decided the "modern" way to
go is to use a carbide die which MUST produce a parallel sided sized case.

I have read that Redding is offering a dual ring carbide die with an upper and lower rings of
different diameters. Sounds interesting, and if I loaded this round in large quantities I would
get one. Since I load only in small quantities - no big deal to lube my cases.

I suggest you cruise eBay and find a set of RCBS steel dies in an old looking green box and
take a chance. I did this and won.

Bill

[USSR]

Like Bill above, I use RCBS steel dies and have no problem lubing them. I also leave about a 1/4" gap between the case holder and the bottom of the die, as I find no need to size very far down into the web area of the brass.

Don

[Changeling]

I specifically purchased an older set of RCBS steel dies to avoid overworking the base of
the case in this slightly tapered cartridge which everyone has decided the "modern" way to
go is to use a carbide die which MUST produce a parallel sided sized case.

I have read that Redding is offering a dual ring carbide die with an upper and lower rings of
different diameters. Sounds interesting, and if I loaded this round in large quantities I would
get one. Since I load only in small quantities - no big deal to lube my cases.

I suggest you cruise eBay and find a set of RCBS steel dies in an old looking green box and
take a chance. I did this and won.

Bill

Thanks Bill, I wrote the other post describing how Redding has a NEW die out that fix's a "recognized and known problem" that should have been fixed a long time ago. I was just hoping someone would know a manufacture that had already done it correctly without wanting 100 to $200.00 for correcting a problem there dies had already, like Redding.

However all this thinking how they should make things correctly must all be in my MIND as someone suggested. They evidently have far more experience than the engineers and people in the know than the rest of the people on this forum or he is just one of those individuals that likes to talk and hasen't the slightest idea that there should be a connection from is mouth to the lump sitting on his shoulders.

[44MAG#1]

"or he is just one of those individuals that likes to talk and hasen't the slightest idea that there should be a connection from is mouth to the lump sitting on his shoulders"

I have loaded many 45 Colt loads using the carbide size dies and have never experienced ANY problems in doing so. I assure you that you will not have any. I have loaded from very mild to quite stiff and still no problems with bullet from 200 to 340 gr in weight.
I load for Rugers and one S&W.
The only cases I have lost was due to case mouth splits as long as the cases are brass and not nickel plated.
So explain that to the lump on my shoulders.
Of course I am so stupid I though mass could be weighed.

[USSR]

Changeling,

It's not a "recognized and known problem", it's a recognized and known cosmetic flaw resulting from the use of carbide dies. If you look at the 9mm Luger cartridge which is a tapered case, you get the same result using carbide resizing dies. Still, most guys are willing to put up with an imperfect "look" that is fully functional and which does not require them to lube their cases.

Don

[Changeling]

[QUOTE=USSR;2742381]Changeling,

It's not a "recognized and known problem", it's a recognized and known cosmetic flaw resulting from the use of carbide dies. If you look at the 9mm Luger cartridge which is a tapered case, you get the same result using carbide resizing dies. Still, most guys are willing to put up with an imperfect "look" that is fully functional and which does not require them to lube their cases."

Absolutely not. It is a recognized problem because the "Gun/Revolver" manufactures do not drill/ream/grind the chambers correctly to the right SAAMI specifications.
Then to make the problem worse the "die" manufactures make there dies according to what the revolver manufacteres have done (NO standards)! I simply don't understand why you guys don't under stand this!

It is not just an improper fit or look that is functional, it can effect pressures/accuracy/longevity in all cases where the firearm manufactuers have neglected to machine there cylinders correctly according to SAAMI specifications.

I give up, if you don't understand, the heck with it!

[Outpost75]

Unfortunately, in the US and Canada the SAAMI drawings are only recommended practices and are not legally enforceable as the CIP protocols are in the EU. At best they are only guidelines. The manufacturers deviate from them all the time.

[DougGuy]

I don't see there is a problem at all.

Let's go back 25yrs. I had a Blackhawk in .45 Colt that had the WORST ever chamber dimensions I have ever seen. It had .456" throats, and the back of the charge holes was horrifically large. Brass would come out of it looking like you stuffed a watermelon down inside the case. Talk about bulged cases, jeez! I loaded that brass over and over again, mostly using heavy boolits and copious amounts of good old W296.

To this day I still have some of that ammo loaded, I shoot it as needed, toss the brass in with all the new Starline that I just put into circulation this past year, and once it's resized and cleaned, I will be danged if I can tell it from once fired without looking at the headstamp. Some of it is factory brass that used to have a cannelure in the middle of it or a crimped ring of sorts, and if I get a magnifying glass sometimes I can find one of those cases mixed in with the rest of it. I have only had one case separation starting which I saw and threw away that case when it came out of the cylinder. I have had 2-3 of them split which caused zero problems and they got thrown away too. I have only ever used a Lee carbide sizing die and yeah I push it all the way down and it has that reverse bulge looking thing going on but in all the years of reloading, know what? It's NEVER been a problem!

[44MAG#1]

"It is not just an improper fit or look that is functional, it can effect pressures/accuracy/longevity in all cases where the firearm manufactuers have neglected to machine there cylinders correctly according to SAAMI specifications. "

At what point has this caused you a problem?
If you would just calmly explain the problems this has caused YOU then maybe the rest of us may understand and then we may all get on board your train.
Now real problems that you have experienced not theorized problems as there are many things that can cause problems in theory.

[dougader]

I have been using my carbide dies adjusted so the decapping pin sticks down further but then only "neck sizing" the cases. It actuality, the cases get sized about 1/2 way down, leaving the bases unsized. It seems to work fine in my Ruger Montado...

[Char-Gar]

I have some definite thoughts on 45 Colt dies and revolver charge holes. I started with the 45 Colt about 1965 or 66 with a pair of Colt New Service sixguns, which were still cheap and affordable at the time. The charge holes were quite large and full length sized brass would last about 6 reloads before it split from the work hardening. If I annealed the cases every four reloads or so, I could stretch brass life much farther.

These old Colts both SAA and NS gave only mediocre accuracy due to the hog wallow black powder chambers/charge holes. .457 - .458 cylinder throats were the norm. At that time the 45 Colt round was on it's way out with the 44 being more popular. The 44 had a reputation of being more accurate, and I feel it was due to the guns more than the cartridge.

Along came the Ruger handguns in 45 Colt and the round took an uptick in popularity. Ruger produced their handguns with similar large charge holes including the large cylinder throats. With the advent of jacketed bullets, Ruger reduce the cylinder throats, but most often there were too small for best use with cast bullets. They kept the large body portion of the charge hole.

Carbide dies came on line as well which produced a straight untapered case. The result was loaded rounds wallowing around in the chambers with not the alighment to the throats it needed for best accuracy. Neck sizing the brass helped a bunch in this regard, but limited the reloaded ammo to the handgun it was fired in initially. I have two Ruger BHs and the ammo would not interchange due to the difference in chamber specs.

The earlier steel dies would indeed produce a tapered case and work the brass much less. I retired my carbide die and hunted up a 1959 RCBS die and am quite happy with the result. I have since added two more vintage RCBS dies as backups. I also have a Lyman (hand type) Shell Resizer and it produces a tapered case identical to the old RCBS dies.

Enter the new Lipsey's 45 Flatop Rugers and thing get even better. They are cut to minimum chamber specs and are a delight to load for and shoot. The cylinder throats are a uniform .452. The combination of tighter charge holes, proper cylinder throats and larger reloaded cases makes for delightful and accurate shooting.

Everybody has their experience and opinions about the 45 Colt, the revolvers made for it and the reloading dies used to reload the round. Now you have mine, for what they are worth. This is what I have learned after 50 years shooting and reloading the 45 Colt round.

"The problem" with the 45 colt round and the revolvers made for it is that it started life in 1873 as a black powder round and lived long enough to transition to smokeless powder, died and was resurrected due to nostalgia. Lots of change for an old girl and the makers of sixguns and dies could only see as far as the end of their nose. They only made small incremental changes without stepping back and rethinking the whole round in light of the current world. The result is you have all kind of chamber specs and all kinds of die specs and folks that have problems think everybody else has the same problem and folks that don't have problems think those that have problems are wrong. Sixguns in 45 Colts must be dealt with as individuals and not as an entire class. What works in one, may not work in another, due to the changes over the past 141 years. Shoot and reload for enough different handguns of different makes and vintages, using enough different dies of different vintages, over a long period of time and the issues of loading the round will get real clear. My experience has been limited to Colt, Smith and Wesson and Ruger handguns. I have never had a Freedom Arms or any other make in 45 Colt.

I now have a 1921 Colt New Service, a custom Gary Reeder BH, a USFA single action and a new Lipsey's Flatop all in 45 Colt. Each of these sixguns are different critters and require different ammo, although the New Service and the USFA can get along on the same ammo. It is far from my favorite sixgun round, but I do like it. It is more certainly NOT a stretch sock, one-size-fits-all round to load for, it is a troublesome old girl.

[44MAG#1]

My question to the the OPer still stands. What problems has he had?
While not reloading the 45 Colt as long as some I have not had any problems so far. Now what the future holds I don't know. The bottom may fall out tomorrow. But until that happens, what problems has he had?

[Char-Gar]

Unfortunately, in the US and Canada the SAAMI drawings are only recommended practices and are not legally enforceable as the CIP protocols are in the EU. At best they are only guidelines. The manufacturers deviate from them all the time.

If there is an answer to the frustrations felt by the OP, this is it. This and the historical evolution of the round and firearms made for it. Funky dies and funky chambers are just a fact of life for those of us who enjoy shooting and loading. This is just an "is" and no reason to press the "why" to far.

[44MAG#1]

My intention isn't to be caustic but to get to the meat of the problem. I would really like to know what problems he has actually had. Have I been overlooking something, have I just lucked up on the five 45 Colts I have, am I just goofy enough not to know I have a problem?
He may very well have a problem, I don't know.
Let's do it like this, let's ask every 45 Colt shooter if they are having a problem that is traced to the tapered chambers due to using the carbide dies set ups and see what they have as far as imput.
That may put a new light on the subject and enlighten me as well. Anyone that knows me will attest to the fact I at times need to be enlightened even though I have been reloading for 44 years which is nothing compared to many of you. With the 45 Colt since the mid '90's only.

[Char-Gar]

My intention isn't to be caustic but to get to the meat of the problem. I would really like to know what problems he has actually had. Have I been overlooking something, have I just lucked up on the five 45 Colts I have, am I just goofy enough not to know I have a problem?
He may very well have a problem, I don't know.
Let's do it like this, let's ask every 45 Colt shooter if they are having a problem that is traced to the tapered chambers due to using the carbide dies set ups and see what they have as far as imput.
That may put a new light on the subject and enlighten me as well.

The meat of the problem as I understand it, is he thinks carbide dies oversize 45 Colt brass. I share this opinion. I also think carbide die oversize 38 Special and 357 Magnum brass. As a result, I use older steel dies that produce a tapered case that is sized less from mouth to rim.

Now does this matter, really matter? It does to some people and does not to others. It would take long exhaustive scientific testing to determine if there is any real difference and nobody to my knowledge has done that. Until that is done all we are left with is our opinions of which you have yours and I have mine. I don't think mine is superior to yours, but on the other hand I am not going to unpack my carbide dies and go back to using them because you do.

There are numbers of us who feel the use of carbide dies is not conducive to best accuracy in the 45 Colt. Note I said "feel" and not "know". There is a big difference between those two words. I am trying to apply my best theory to my practice of reloading. My best theory tells me a round that fits the chamber better than another will most often deliver better accuracy. This is true in rifles as well as handguns. This is why benchrest rifle shooters only neck size their cases, treasuring the custom fit of their cases to their chambers.

The idea is to introduce the bullet into the barrel straight and not at an angle. This is more problematic in a revolver with six chambers that revolve around an axis. A case which fits the chamber best will also hopefully introduce the bullet into the rifling better than a case which does not. This need to keep the chambers and ammo straight with barrel is why high end custom sixguns have chambers that are "line bored" with the barrel. Some folks say this helps and some say it does not.

If your handloaded rounds deliver all the accuracy you want in your handguns, then you most definitely do not have a problem. All this talk about dies and chamber specs have no relevance to you, your handguns and your shooting. If only matters if you think it does.

[44MAG#1]

Now I see. Just like I feel before I get to work. Feel there is going to be a problem but not actually knowing there will be. Most a gut feeling.

[Vulcan Bob]

I too at one time fussed about this and finally figured out at least for me it was a futile quest. With eighteen handguns chambered for the .45 Colt with chamber dimensions all over the place I just gave up worrying about it. With attention to proper diameter bullets for each gun I get good accuracy but case life is another thing!

[Char-Gar]

I too at one time fussed about this and finally figured out at least for me it was a futile quest. With eighteen handguns chambered for the .45 Colt with chamber dimensions all over the place I just gave up worrying about it. With attention to proper diameter bullets for each gun I get good accuracy but case life is another thing!

Yes, that is about it. However the old dies that sized less still produce ammo that will fit in every 45 Colt handgun ever made and will give longer case life. Of course the smaller the chamber the less sizing even with the old spec dies, and less sizing always produces longer case life. My New Service is going to eat cases no matter how they are sized. Such are the joys and sorrows of shooting the 45 Colt!

At any rate I am happier with my reloads after I packed my carbide dies away. Wiping off my rounds is a small price to pay for being happier don't you think?

[Char-Gar]

Now I see. Just like I feel before I get to work. Feel there is going to be a problem but not actually knowing there will be. Most a gut feeling.

Perception is a powerful force in life. We tend to find what we look for. Feel there is a problem at work and most often there will be, because we are looking out for it. Of course there are times snakes are coiled beside out path we are not looking for. In that case reality trumps perception. :-)

There is of course intuition and this is stronger in some folks than in others. It took me a very long time to learn to trust my intuitive feelings because they are right more often than they are wrong.

[USSR]

The OP's problem seems to be that he doesn't understand how carbide dies are constructed and work. The carbide ring is at the bottom of the die, and whatever dimension that is, is what the entire part of the case that comes in contact with it will end up being. Simply no way to induce a taper in the case using a carbide die of typical carbide die construction.

Don