We need to make some clearification on an over used term!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

As I suspect most of you have, I time and time again see the term, "hard cast" used when a person says they wish to buy or cast or use some, "hard cast" bullets.

The term is over used and basically means little to nothing as to one person what is hard may be quite soft to another.

How about some one with the knowledge and or hardness tester come up with a rating system where by we can all KNOW what we and others are talking about.

Maybe 3 - 4 or more categories, soft, medium and hard, each with an established Hardness attached to the term.

The only common really hard alloy, and that used by a limited number of casters when compared to the many who cast with Wheel Weights or alloys of similar hardness, would be linotype.

Guess we could say that bullets cast of linotype are truly, "hard cast" while most other alloys are far softer and NOT truly "hard cast."

I don't have a hardness tester, but seems that it would be a benefit to us all to come to some meaningful criteria buy which we throw out terms such as, the over used and currently meaningless, "hard cast."

Just an Ol'Coot's thoughts, but in the past I have also used "the term" and have come to the realization that in reality, it means nothing as there has apparently been no established rating system by which to say that an alloy is, indeed, HARD.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[dragon813gt]

Hard Cast isn't over used by members here. It's over used by bullet manufacturers. And for all intensive purposes hard cast means bullets that are hard enough to survive shipping w/ no damage and won't perform very well on game animals. Most of them are over 15bhn if not 20 or more.

And remember that hard cast has changed over the years. Elmer Keith would consider our standard COWW bullets to be hard cast.

[cbrick]

The Dragon is correct.

For my own use I figure anything under about 9 as soft. 10 to about 14 as medium. 15 to 18 as hard and beyond 18 as diamonds and not needed in most cases.

Rick

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks, and you both very well point out the need for an established and agreed upon standard.

There is non and the term is cast around and therefore meaningless.

CDOC

[selmerfan]

Mike Venturino would disagree with you all - nothing less than linotype for his rifles and COWW are useless! :grin:

[dragon813gt]

Just look at it like the marketing term it is. Then you will realize it doesn't matter. Let the rubes think they need hardcast bullets. In the age of the Internet where information is at your fingertips it takes no time to find out just how wrong this assumption is.

How about this for a standard. Commercially cast bullets = Hardcast ;)

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well Mike may use linotype in some rifles, but it would be 20/1 for his silly wet rifles.

As per your comment dragon, it may be a marking ploy, but for the life of me can't understand why there would be resistance to an established standard.

Were there to be a standard, then for any cast bullet manufacture to claim his product is for example, "hard cast" they would need to be within an established range to qualify.

I'm not asking that I set the standards that everyone MUST adhere to, just that it seems reasonable to have such standards.

For example, lead is XX BNH and a soft alloy is XX to XX etc.

Maybe we have never done it that way before, but that follows on the heals of the seven words well know for the ability to stop any progress, But "I've Never Done It That Way Before."

Not meaning to step on anyone's toes here, but I for one would like to see something in black and white by which we can learn and inform, AND know.

As said before, just an Ol'Coot's opinion.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[mpmarty]

swaging = hardcast

[dbosman]

Does no one swage lead projectiles any more?


swaging = hardcast

[DougGuy]

Anything I cannot scratch with a thumbnail I consider it to be "hard cast." I cannot scratch Lyman #2 and it's BHN 15? Would have to agree with cbrick on this one, his assessments seem about right.

Don't forget about the pencil hardness thread either. Those work good! We could stand a little closer conversion from the Staedtler number to BHN but the pencils are great tools that are as accurate as they need to be without fuss. Plenty accurate enough for our uses on this forum.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I suspect there are some, but Swaging and those that swage seem to be limited at this point. Pretty quiet on that front.

And I could also go with cbrick's range of hardness. I'm not, as I said needing to establish the levels, but would like to some established. So, can't personally see any problems with cbrick's suggestion.

The one thing it could force me to do however is, to buy a tester or take advantage of some of the nice offers of posters who have offered this service, just so I'd know.

CDOC

[snuffy]

As for commercial bullet manuf., a good one is the Missouri bullet company. They say exactly what the BHN of the bullets are right on the boxes, and on his website when you order from them. He does that by using known alloys he orders by the pallet from a local foundry. I doubt he uses the term "hardcast" in his description.

http://www.missouribullet.com/results.php?category=5&secondary=25

He simply lists the brinnel hardness for each bullet.

I agree the term "hardcast" is used to describe most any/all cast boolits on many forums. I even brought the subject up on TFL, got my head handed to me, I gave up after being told I was splitting hairs and it wasn't important. The consensus was that bullet other than a swagged bullet was considered hardcast! Most people insist on staying ignorant.

I never use the term hardcast myself, I give the estimated BHN or one I have tested with my lee tester.

[runfiverun]

the term hard-cast come about to denote the use of antimony in the lead alloy.
[around the turn of the 20th century]
it differentiates the difference between an antimonial alloy and a lead-tin only alloy.

maybe you'd just like to buy some 12 bhn boolits.
the alloy could be 20-1, or ww's and tin, or lead and tin/zinc, or bismuth/tin and lead.
it might matter in your rifle.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well said snuffy!

Kind of felt like I was getting the same reaction, but still hold that it would be a benefit to have an established standard.

CDOC

[MtGun44]

I like cbrick's definitions - this is about what I call it. Elmer's hard cast was 1:16 alloy which is about
11 or 12 BHN, IIRC.

For magnum loads, I have had good success with as soft as 8 BHN range lead, so I don't need any
harder than 10-12 for my pistol loads. So - I'm OK with Elmer's definition of "hard cast" being
about 10-12 BHN.

If I ever try to load boolits in rifles past the 1750 fps range that I normally use, I may discover a
need for harder alloys.

Bill

[captaint]

I'm pretty sure I've never cast anything harder than, like 12. Ever. I don't shoot much rifle though, just the 38-55 thus far...

[Bigslug]

In the history of this forum, has there ever been a thread with more opportunities for use of the phrase "That's what SHE said"?:lol:


Just look at it like the marketing term it is. Then you will realize it doesn't matter. Let the rubes think they need hardcast bullets. In the age of the Internet where information is at your fingertips it takes no time to find out just how wrong this assumption is.

This pretty much hits the nail. It's a meaningless term not used by anyone around here save the new arrivals. When the loaders of commercial cast give up on them due to excessive leading in their bores, this merely means cheap, clean garage sale alloy for us.

[Shuz]

I agree--the term "hard cast" is meaningless. It's like saying, that girl is pretty. How pretty? Remember, beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder!
I prefer to use Bhn numbers to define the hardness of my cast boolits and I'll let you decide whether that is hard or soft.

For handguns with velocities from 900 to 1300, I use plain based boolits of Bhn 8 to 14 with the slower powders using the higher hardness's.
For rifles with velocities from 1000 to 1300 I use plain based boolits and Bhn 11 to 18.
For rifles with velocities from 1300 to 1800 I use gas checks and Bhn 11 to 18.
For rifle velocities beyond 1800 I use gas checks and Bhn 22 to 28.
This is what has worked for me down thru the years YMMV.

[mdi]

If I remember correctly, "hard cast" was a term used to differentiate between soft swaged bullets and any cast bullet. Had nothing to do with how hard the alloy is. Now, nearly every new cast bullet shooter thinks "harder is better", and wants "hard cast" so the commercial casters give them what they want, and sell bullets 18-22 BHN. I believe it's a term used in ignorance, just parroting what has been read/heard...

[Marlin Junky]

The Dragon is correct.

...and beyond 18 as diamonds and not needed in most cases.

Rick

Unless one is shooting a fast twist rifle with relatively short lands.

MJ

P.S. For the record, clarification is a word in the English language, clearification is not. :lol:

[cbrick]

Unless one is shooting a fast twist rifle with relatively short lands. MJ

I must have said "never ever under any circumstances". Hhmmm . . . Nope, not what I wrote at all. I just went back and read what I wrote and it said this . . . . .


not needed in most cases. Rick

And as a matter of fact, in most cases it's not needed.

Rick

[Marlin Junky]

I must have said "never ever under any circumstances". Hhmmm . . . Nope, not what I wrote at all. I just went back and read what I wrote and it said this . . . . .



And as a matter of fact, in most cases it's not needed.

Rick

Well, I figured I might meet with some opposition when I wrote that and indeed you said "in most cases". I assumed you meant personally, in most cases. Since the bulk of my shooting is from relatively fast twist rifle barrels with "cut-rate modern" rifling, I get my best results (with faster burning powders) if I heat treat my castings. The only point I was trying to make Rick, is that the whole game of shooting cast boolits really boils down to two little words... it depends. I certainly wasn't attempting to contradict you.

MJ

P.S. Or perhaps you mean that my usage or interest in cast boolits is so way out there (so esoteric) that it lies outside the bell curve of normal. Either way, my comment wasn't directed at you as a contradiction, I was simply adding substance.