.30 WCF Dakota Model 10

[tonyjones]

I'm thinking of having a Dakota Model 10 built in .30-30 Winchester to be a dedicated cast bullet rifle. I'm thinking of a barrel length of 23" to 25", upgraded wood, case colors on the receiver, under lever and grip cap, bead front sight and receiver sight with interchangable apertures. The rifle will be used for plinking, informal target shooting, deer, feral hogs and other targets of opportunity. This will be a walk about/stalking rifle.

I'd like to hear from the members here regarding twist (I'm thinking 1 in 12" or 14"), details of how the chamber should be cut and anything else you folks might care to weigh in on.

Thanks and regards,

Tony

[Mk42gunner]

I didn't know Dakota was still in business, guess I should pay more attention.

The few Model 10's I have seen were elegant rifles. As such, I would go with the longer barrel, maybe even up to 28".

I don't really know what to advise one the chamber; twist would be boolit length dependent, although we know the 1:12" will work.

Robert

[Nobade]

Were it me doing that, I would specify that they use something like Dave Manson's 30-30 cast bullet match reamer rather than a SAAMI one, and use a 1:14 twist. That's good for up to 190 gr. cast boolits easy. But that is just if I were doing it.

-Nobade

[tonyjones]

Thanks guys. That's exactly what I'm looking for. I anticipate using bullets no heavier/longer than something along the lines of 31141, 311291, etc.

Any thoughts on my sight selection?

Regards,

Tony

[Tatume]

Although I have several, I now feel the Lyman and Williams receiver sights are a bit "clunky." I'm more pleased with XS Sights and Skinner sights. They don't offer quick and easy adjustments, but they are adjustable. Once you get your load dialed in, you probably won't need to change the sight adjustment again.

As most of my rifles have ramps for the front sight, and I have a Williams sight mover (a quality tool, by the way), I don't feel a need for windage adjustment on the rear sight. As I like really stout sights, I've been considering making my own rear sights from now on. They will be one piece of steel, with screw holes to match the rear pair of scope base screw holes. They will have a hole threaded 7/32x14 for Williams aperture disks, and will be as short as possible. Elevation adjustment will be accomplished with a file.

I've long been interested in a Dakota Model 10. Please keep us posted on the progress of your project.

Take care, Tom

[tonyjones]

Tom,

This will be my 4th Model 10. If you have any questions feel free to shoot me a PM, post here or start a new thread.

Regards,

Tony

[tonyjones]

Anyone else? I welcome additional perspectives.

Thanks,

Tony

[Mk42gunner]

Tony,

I are you the one gun, one load zero it once and don't think about it again type of guy, or do you envision constantly changing zero? This has bearing on just what rear sight you get.

For the front sight, I greatly prefer a flat topped post instead of a bead. Maybe it the years I spent teaching the M-14 and M16, but the flat top post is a lot easier to use, for me. If you want a contrasting front sight the sourdough type with a brass face works well too.

I never liked the six o'clock hold sight in; to me it seems too target dependent. While it will work on the range with standard size paper targets it isn't as well suited for field use. I prefer to sight in with point of impact at the top of the front sight. My Marlin in .30-30 wears a Williams 5D with an Ashley flat topped front and is still sighted in for the Hornady 170 in front of Reloader 15, and has been for about 15 years.

Robert

[tonyjones]

Robert,

During early load work-up I'll try several bullet designs, loads, seating depths, etc. I hope to end up with two loads. One will be for deer and hogs with a 150 to 170 grain bullet going as fast as they will go and still maintain accuracy (5 shots @ 50 yards 1" center to center). The other load will be my plinking/goof-off load with a bullet in the 115 to 130 grain class @ 1,200 to 1,300 fps. Therefore, I will likely be changing my sight settings.

I have not used irons in some time. In the past I preferred a center hold or cover/surround the bull in my rimfire position shooting days. Once loads have been developed I expect to shoot quite a bit standing.

Regards,

Tony

[Tatume]

Hi Tony,

The Talley Peep Sight is an interesting option; have you considered it for your rifle? It does not appear to be adjustable for elevation, but there are ways around that.

What arrangement does Dakota use for the front sight? If it is easily removed and replaced, then two front sight blades could be fitted, one for each of your loads. By the way, a blade front sight is much superior to a bead.

In the alternative, you could use the Talley peep sight for one load, and an elegant scope (I like the Leupold 2.5x Ultralight) for the other.

Take care, Tom

[tonyjones]

Tom,

I'll elaborate a bit for those following this thread who may not be familiar with Dakota. Dakota is a manufacturer of semi-custom rifles. All of their rifles are really custom as they're made to order for one of their dealers. The Model 10 is available in Standard, Deluxe and Mannlicher versions with cataloged and non-cataloged options available. My recollection is that one may have one of these for between $4,500 and $10,000, not counting engraving and/or inlays.

The base Model 10 comes with Dakota bases that accept Talley rings (lever and screw lock). I assume that the Talley peep will work with the Dakota bases. Thanks for pointing that out to me Tom. I had seen the peep on Talley's website but had not really considered it. A quarter rib with express sight is also available. The only front sight that I have ever seen on a Dakota rifle is a barrel band/ramp/hooded affair.

One should think of a Dakota as an American rifle with strong ties to the arms that came out of the best English shops in the first half of the 20th century.

Tom, I have a Leupold 2.5x on a 9.3x62 CZ 550 FS and like it a lot.

I expect to have a conference call next week with the dealer and Dakota's production manager. I've got a lot to think about.

Best regards,

Tony

[Tatume]

Hi Tony,

The Talley peep sight must be hand fitted to an individual Talley base, so that particular base must be installed on your rifle. However, it should still accept a Talley ring, so you can go back and forth between scope and aperture sight.

Take care, Tom

[StrawHat]

I see they also catalog a "small" Sharps rifle, certainly an interesting rifle.

[tonyjones]

StrawHat,

The Dakota Sharps is a very neat rifle and I should include it for consideration as well as the CPA. IIRC the Dakota Sharps is an 80% scale model of the 74 Sharps Business Rifle.

Regards,

Tony

[tonyjones]

I've had several conversations with Dakota, their dealer, and exchanged emails with Dave Manson. Dave was kind enough to forward a drawing for their .30-30 cast bullet match reamer along with a few words of encouragement.

I'm going to build this rifle with a scope for a sight and have something else made for iron sights (Dakota Sharps or CPA). The barrel will be 25" or 26" in length with 1" in 14" twist rate.

Does anyone here have any thoughts about the Ackley Improved version of the .30-30 for this project? I would maintain the Manson match features.

Regards,

Tony

[RPRNY]

I have a view on this that instead of the AI version of the 30-30, which offers little gain and really nothing for the cast shooter, I would seriously consider clambering in 30-40.

In a modern strong action like the Dakota, you could if so desired, load to bottom end 30-06 levels, regularly load to 308 Win levels and still shoot cast up to and including the fabulous Lyman 311284 220 gr bullet. 180 gr Lyman 311041 at 1500 - 1600 for paper ( Ed Harris loads) to .308 loads for pigs to H4350 and 220 gr Speer Hot Cores for dinosaurs and brown bear. That lively long neck screams out for cast bullets. 1:12 twist IMHO.

[Piedmont]

I would avoid the Ackley improved since you want this for cast. A long neck is better for cast. Ideally you want the gas check in the neck, especially at high pressures where it will obturate and try to fit whatever space is available to it. The neck limits the space available for that. Also, since this is a single shot, a strong case can be made for the 1-12" over the 1-14" if you have any intention of going heavy. You don't have to worry about cycling a loaded round through the action so overall length is not a consideration. You could have fun with 220 grain cast loads if you wanted, and a 1-12 would be better for that. Of course if you have no intention of going heavy the 1-14 would be easier for pushing velocities with the light bullets.

[tonyjones]

I have given some thought to heavy (210 to 220 grain) cast bullets but lean toward something in the 150 to 180 grain area for my primary hunting bullet. Texas white tail deer and feral hogs are not that large. I also intend to develop a light (+/- 125 grain) subsonic load for cheap plinking and offhand practice. That's why I lean toward a 1" in 14" twist rate. With a 12" twist I'd have the option to shoot heavier/longer bullets but I've always preferred to not spin bullets any more than I have to and the heavies may generate more recoil than I want to deal with in a light rifle.

Regards,

Tony

[tonyjones]

Has anyone here measured current production .30-30 brass for case neck uniformity, weight uniformity, etc? What should I expect neck thickness to run? I've never hand loaded for this cartridge.

Thanks,

Tony

[13Echo]

If this is going to be a cast bullet hunting rifle why not do the .30-40. It is a nearly ideal cast bullet cartridge and it will give a bit more than the 30-30, especially if you're using heavier bullets. Just my thought.

Jerry Liles

[tonyjones]

Is .30-40 brass as available as .30-30? What about the uniformity/quality of .30-40 brass? I've never fired this round much less worked with it.

Thanks,

Tony

[Tatume]

Hi Tony,

Neither one is presently available at Midway. Krag brass is listed as "seasonal run." Starline makes neither. I wouldn't let availability worry me. I decided that one day I want to own a rifle chambered for 348 Winchester. When I saw brass available I bought several hundred cases. I don't have the rifle yet. You'll find cases before your rifle is ready; it not, buy a couple of boxes of factory ammo, which is available.

Uniformity should not be a concern either. Modern manufacturing being what it is, I would expect either to be very good. Also, if you have a tight match chamber you can outside neck turn your brass. In that case you should consider a Wilson inline bullet seating die. They are available for both of these calibers.

Personally, I would choose the 30-40 Krag, but either one will satisfy your stated purposes.

Take care, Tom

[RPRNY]

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/16674

30-40 brass is available and, with the present state of the market, currently about as available as 30-30! Pre-panic, less so.

30-40 brass is stronger than 30-30 brass. It is largely unavailable and un appealing as factory loaded ammo. In a strong modern action it is super versatile. 22 grs of 4227 and 180 311041 is a soft shooting joy of a target load. If you want to hunt elk with it, 180 gr Speer Hot Core can be loaded for a 265 yard MPBR. I get 2600fps MV from 175 Berger VLD from a 22" Ruger No 3.

And the neck cries out for the quintessential 30 cal heavy, the 210 gr 311284, invented for the 30-40.

[C. Latch]

Many years ago - maybe 1971 or so - Gun Digest ran an article about a single-shot rifle being made by, IIRC, a company that had bought the Sharps name. Maybe Colt bought the rights to the rifle from them later.

Anyway, the point is, when Gun Digest reviewed the rifle, onbe of the samples they reported on was chambered in 30-40 Krag, and with the long (28"?) barrel of the single-shot action, they were getting 30-06 ballistics.

For a cast bullet cartridge in .30 caliber, I think you could do much, much worse than a 30-40 Krag.

<---not an expert, just thinking out loud.

[tonyjones]

OK, OK. I'm considering the .30-40. While looking through several of my loading manuals and comparing .30-30 and .30-40 data I came across a cartridge I have not thought about in a while. What do you guys think about the 7.62x54R? Case capacity seems to be a bit less than the .30-40. Lapua brass is available for that one.

I'm a "recovering" bench rest shooter and I can be a bit obsessive compulsive when it comes to brass. In years past I have measured a lot of case necks. I have found most Lapua and some Norma with necks (in smaller calibers) uniform to .0002" or a tenth more. I've never measured any other brand that comes close. While I have and can turn case necks I would almost prefer having a root canal. One "trick" I've used in the past is to have my chamber neck cut for bullet diameter + case neck diameter (x2) + .001" all around (perhaps a bit bigger for a hunting rifle).

I'm going to look at bullet designs also.

Regards,

Tony

[Fluxed]

Stick with the plain 30-30.
Plenty of capacity for shootin' lead. Brass is everywhere. And if it ever mattered you can pick up factory ammo just about anywhere.

Sounds like like a really great rifle. I am jealous.

[13Echo]

I think you would be very happy with the .30-40. the cartridge just seems designed for cast bullets. The neck is long enough to cover all the grease grooves in almost any bullet you care to try and the case capacity is just about ideal for best performance of .30cal cast bullets. It's everything the .30-30 is and a bit more. Brass is available but it does come in seasonal runs so buy it when it's available. I think it is a better case for cast than the 7.62x54 Russian for the long neck if nothing else. Since this is going to be a hunting rifle and not a dedicated target or varmint rifle it is a different animal and reliable ammunition is far more important than the last 0.01" on the target.

[nagantguy]

OK, OK. I'm considering the .30-40. While looking through several of my loading manuals and comparing .30-30 and .30-40 data I came across a cartridge I have not thought about in a while. What do you guys think about the 7.62x54R? Case capacity seems to be a bit less than the .30-40. Lapua brass is available for that one.

I'm a "recovering" bench rest shooter and I can be a bit obsessive compulsive when it comes to brass. In years past I have measured a lot of case necks. I have found most Lapua and some Norma with necks (in smaller calibers) uniform to .0002" or a tenth more. I've never measured any other brand that comes close. While I have and can turn case necks I would almost prefer having a root canal. One "trick" I've used in the past is to have my chamber neck cut for bullet diameter + case neck diameter (x2) + .001" all around (perhaps a bit bigger for a hunting rifle).

I'm going to look at bullet designs also.

Regards,

Tony
The 7.62x54r is a great all around cartridge and under rated fer cast. But that being said if I was of a mind and budget to build such a fine rifle I'd go with 30-30. No doubting its usefulness or versatility and my love affair with the 30-30 just started all over again this weekend.