45 Colt Ruger Only Question.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hi guys.
I've been reading a lot about 45 colt. I just got my first 45 colt firearm this weekend. A ruger Blackhawk with a 5.5" barrel.
In reading tons of articles on load data I read something that emphasized the use of heavy bullets. I was reading till about 1 am this morning and read a cool article. In the article it gave an explanation of why with max ruger only load the 300 grain bullet only had a 70 fps or so advantage over the 360.

Now I can't for the life of me find the article or remember the reason.

Has anyone read this? Or maybe someone has some insight into it.
Damn full moon, can't sleep but can't remember what I read the night before. ; )

Thanks guys.

[M-Tecs]

Any of these what you are looking for?

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/heavyweight_bullets.htm
http://www.realguns.com/archives/121.htm
http://www.realguns.com/loads/45coltr.htm

[RobS]

I don't know about the article but Asking for safety measures as you pursue Ruger/TC only 45 Colt loads, do you have the Ruger Large frame BH? There are two different New Model Blackhawks these days. I have a new model Flat Top BH that is build off of the smaller frame with a smaller cylinder etc same as the new model BH Vaquero's. These two smaller frame revolvers are good for around 20K but not on up into the upper 20K and 30K area. I also own a Ruger Bisley 5.5 and there is definitely a difference between the two.

[osteodoc08]

I love my 45 Colts. If you can't get it done with a ruger only loading in 45Colt, you really need a rifle.

[C. Latch]

Or maybe someone has some insight into it.

Take a long, hard look at what you plan on shooting with your .45, versus how much you like recoil.

Personally, I want a bullet to pass through a critter, doing damage along the way, and only exiting with enough speed left to ensure the exit. For deer-sized game I'm thinking anything over about 260 grains is wasted in a flat point and anything over 300 is wasted in a hollowpoint. For elk, I think you could change those numbers to 300 and 325. For bear defense where you have to take whatever shot angle(s) you can get, I still wouldn't go over 325 with a flat point.

Maybe, just maybe, a 360 would make sense on bison or moose. Unless you really want to kill moose and plow your garden with the same shot, you don't need a 360.

(this opinion worth what it cost you)

[Michael J. Spangler]

Thanks guys. I'll check those articles.
I'm not planning on loading 360 grain bullets but the article piqued my interest and I totally forgot the reason why. Hahaha.

I do in fact have a large frame Blackhawk capable of the heavy loads. Again I don't intend to do much heavy loading but I do plan on a 300 grain bullet for some fun from time to time either light or heavy loads.

[DrCaveman]

Best i can do is paraphrase some other stuff ive read/heard, since my lil' 45 colt can only handle the older BP pressure loads...

45 colt supposedly maxes out at around 350 for practical accuracy and safety. Has to do with barrel twist vs case capacity and max safe pressures. Basically i think you cant get a heavier bullet going fast enough to stabilize for long-range accuracy within (even ruger-only) safe pressures. [feel free to correct this if someone has a contradictory experience]

That said, IF i had a bomb-proof 45 colt, id probably try to get a 300-325 cooking at 12-1400 fps, and try to find accuracy. Ive messed with heavier and faster in my 460, and im pretty sure it is more than needed for any situation i am likely to encounter. Ive even settled on a 340 grain load going about 1500 as my practical max in the 460 s&w. Thats why i bought the little 45, because i decided a 255 gr at 750 fps is still enough punch for my needs.

Have fun with that blackhawk. The lee 300 flat nose pushed at 1200 is a force to be reckoned with

[DougGuy]

You reach a point of diminishing return with every caliber eventually. Several factors cause this but it basically comes down to laws of physics. As boolit weights increase, velocities slow down. To keep velocities up, powder must increase. As this happens, pressure increases dramatically until it becomes dangerous to proceed farther. Most sensible shooters will read enough and educate themselves enough to know better than to push this "point of diminishing return" because it cannot be exceeded with any degree of safety.

In the .45 Colt that point is about 340gr and boolit weights beyond this are futile and unnecessary as energy and velocity fall off rather quickly. It's very simple. If you want a .45 caliber boolit to do more, you have to put more cartridge behind it and stronger thicker steel around it. In other words, use a bigger gun.

In a short barreled .45 Colt pistol, the 300gr boolit is about as much fun as most people can hope for. It can be accurate to a given distance, it can be driven to a lethal velocity, and it's recoil can be managed with a little experience. All the while there is still enough headroom to not beat the gun to death in short order.

70f/s might not sound like much of an advantage, but that's just on paper. I would say that of the heavy for caliber boolits readily available for the .45 Colt, the 300gr RF boolit is near or at the top of the list for many on this forum as far as enjoyment in shooting, hunting, casting, and loading. There are a whole lot more advantages to this boolit than just 70 feet per second.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I totally a green with the diminishing returns.
It just seems like with that large of a jump in weight the velocity should have dropped more than what it did.
Like I stated in the op. There was an article that explained why the 45 colt shined and was able to maintain its velocity with the heavy weight bullet and stay within the same pressure limits.

Damned if I can find the article again though.

[101VooDoo]

Here's an excellent article on reloading for the flattop Blackhawk 45s. I know you have the standard Blackhawk, but there's lots of good info here:

http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderDecJan2012.pdf

[canyon-ghost]

You reach a point of diminishing return with every caliber eventually. Several factors cause this but it basically comes down to laws of physics. As boolit weights increase, velocities slow down. To keep velocities up, powder must increase. As this happens, pressure increases dramatically until it becomes dangerous to proceed farther. Most sensible shooters will read enough and educate themselves enough to know better than to push this "point of diminishing return" because it cannot be exceeded with any degree of safety.


Well said, very well said. Even in small calibers, there is a point where light, fast bullets are better than heavy ones. It does happen without recoil being a factor too.

[MT Gianni]

I have really enjoyed shooting the 454424 in mine. Runs about 250 gr.

[LAH]

The lee 300 flat nose pushed at 1200 is a force to be reckoned with

On both ends.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I shot some 255s over 18 grains of 2400 last night.
Not bad at all. I really hate the ruger hard plastic grips. They have a mean sharp edge that hurts when you shoot.
In comparison the worn grips on my friends vaquero was a pleasure to shoot.

[Michael J. Spangler]

From the Ross Seyfried article.

"These loads also point out an interesting facet
of the .45 and other big-bore revolvers. That is, it is easier to
drive big bullets than small ones. All three loads are loaded to the
same pressure level, and the diminutive 260-grain bullet only exceeds
the spectacular 325-grain LBT by 50 fps."

This is what I'm taking about. I could have sworn there was an article that had explained this a bit though.

[starmac]

Could it be that the bigger bullet needing more pressure to get moving is utilizing the powder better than a lighter bullet? Just a thought.

[Changeling]

I shot some 255s over 18 grains of 2400 last night.
Not bad at all. I really hate the ruger hard plastic grips. They have a mean sharp edge that hurts when you shoot.
In comparison the worn grips on my friends vaquero was a pleasure to shoot.

MS those standard Ruger grips bothered me to. I started using "Packmar" (.44 Mag) grips and the recoil was a lot friendlier. I also have a set for my Ruger .45Colt, but haven't used them yet.
There is another brand that a lot of people here use and come on a lot of revolvers now from the factory, but the name excapes me at the moment. Beware the finger grove grips untill you try them. You can't really reposition your hand with them, a turn off for many!

[C. Latch]

Hornady's Ruger-only .45 data seems to disagree.

It shows a 325-grain bullet at ~1266' FPS with a maximum charge. I suspect one could push harder, based on the pressures Hornady shows, so let's say 1300'.

The also show 1455' with a 250-grain jacketed bullet. One could easily beat that by 100' with a 260-grain lead slug, so we're talking 1550' or so.

I've never pushed my 260's past 1450' or so, but it was easy to get them there, and I think I had plenty of room to keep going up.

[ddixie884]

Linebaugh goes pretty deep on heavier weight bullets being easier to get ME with than lighter slugs. Go to Handloads.com search for his .45 article. Never mind me, M-tech has a link above.

[jaydub in wi]

From the Ross Seyfried article.

"These loads also point out an interesting facet
of the .45 and other big-bore revolvers. That is, it is easier to
drive big bullets than small ones. All three loads are loaded to the
same pressure level, and the diminutive 260-grain bullet only exceeds
the spectacular 325-grain LBT by 50 fps."

This is what I'm taking about. I could have sworn there was an article that had explained this a bit though.
I think he may have been referring to factory ammo.IIRC

[44man]

There is no need for such velocities in the .45. The twist of the big Ruger's are right for a heavy boolit but with what I shoot, the Lee 300, LBT 335 and the Lyman 452651 I found around 1160 fps is where accuracy is found. Any more and groups open too fast. Not much will stop the boolits.
I have had no complaints from deer at all. Mine is the old Vaquero at 7-1/2" with Pachmeyer signature grips. It would be silly to look for 1450 fps. You just lose the ability to hit anything.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I'm not trying to push those velocities.
I was just looking for be explanation. I like to have the science behind why these things happen that's all.
I'm a fan of bigger caliber and heavier bullet at modest velocity.

Just looking for an explanation.

[DougGuy]

With the 430-310-RF boolit in my 7 1/2" SBH, I found the sweet spot to be just a tad above supersonic so 1120-1170f/s is right in there for that gun. Thank you 44man for all your insights and posts on this caliber and boolit. I also found that you can load 3 strings of the same boolit cast in different alloys and your barrel may just show a preference for one of those alloys over the others. Mine loved 50/50+2% right off jump street. Immediate improvement in groups.

I have the same test set up this week for the 4 5/8" Vaquero .45 using the 452-300-RF cast in Lyman #2, 50/50+2%, and 20:1 alloys over 20.0gr LilGun. I am wondering if it too will show a definite preference for alloy like the .44 did. More on this when I get a range report together.

[44man]

I'm not trying to push those velocities.
I was just looking for be explanation. I like to have the science behind why these things happen that's all.
I'm a fan of bigger caliber and heavier bullet at modest velocity.


Just looking for an explanation.
It is really the velocity, spin to twist rate match, no, you can't shoot heavy too slow or too fast either.

[tacklebury]

If you aren't going into bear country or planning to shoot an elk/moose with a handgun, you really don't need the heavies. My go to is a 240 gr. HP with 11 gr. Unique in my .45 Colt 5.5" Blackhawk. Drops deer size or 2 legged critters just fine. ;)

102821

[Tar Heel]

A 45 Colt is a 45 Colt. Rugers can take a tad bit of a higher load which you can consider as a safety margin and/or a pretty darn good hunting load if following published data. If you want a recoil generating MONSTER, then abandon the 45 Colt and simply cut to the chase. Get yourself a 454 Casull or 500 Linebaugh or some other such beast and let her rip. Please, for the love of God, do not hot-rod the 45 Colt attempting to get performance like a Casull or something. It just isn't going to happen.

[Tar Heel]

if you aren't going into bear country or planning to shoot an elk/moose with a handgun, you really don't need the heavies. My go to is a 240 gr. Hp with 11 gr. Unique in my .45 colt 5.5" blackhawk. Drops deer size or 2 legged critters just fine. ;)

102821

bazinga!

[Michael J. Spangler]

Once again. I'm not going to hot rod this gun. I never mentioned anything beyond load considered normal and listed on the Hodgdon site for ruger only loads.
All I wanted to know is if anyone can explain what is said in that article.

Why do big bores push heavy bullets just as easy as something 20% lighter as stated in that article.

[DougGuy]

A 45 Colt is a 45 Colt. Rugers can take a tad bit of a higher load which you can consider as a safety margin and/or a pretty darn good hunting load if following published data. If you want a recoil generating MONSTER, then abandon the 45 Colt and simply cut to the chase. Get yourself a 454 Casull or 500 Linebaugh or some other such beast and let her rip. Please, for the love of God, do not hot-rod the 45 Colt attempting to get performance like a Casull or something. It just isn't going to happen.

I have been loading heavy for caliber boolits in my Ruger .45s for decades. Comments like the above come off as if you think we haven't a brain in our head. Gimme a break.

[44man]

I use 21.5 gr of 296 in both the .44 and .45 with the 300+ boolits. I also use the Fed 150 in both. For some reason it seems to be a magic number for accuracy. This is not a max load but seems to be the most accurate out of 7-1/2", a shorter barrel might want 22 gr.
I can say that before I put Pachmeyer grips on my Vaquero, 6 shots was enough for a day.
I would not kick lighter boolits under the table but I prefer the heavy ones for deer.

[Tar Heel]

I have been loading heavy for caliber boolits in my Ruger .45s for decades. Comments like the above come off as if you think we haven't a brain in our head. Gimme a break.

Sorry DougGuy...I didn't realize you Piedmont folks had a Polar Bear infestation there near Raleigh. :kidding:

[DougGuy]

What we have is skinny little doberman sized deer that like to hide behind trees so you don't get a good shot, but no matter, 22.5gr of H110 will push that Lee 300gr RF boolit right through the tree AND the deer and you get to fill your tags anyway! :bigsmyl2:

I think anything up to 30,000psi is good legal fun in the Rugers, I don't try to exceed their limitations. Same with if you want to take game at 100yds with .45 Colt and the RF boolit, use a levergun (or the .44 SBH with a dot!) rather than the short barreled Vaquero. I'd like to take it on a hog hunt though!

OP I cannot find that article you are talking about. I can only figure that the heavies take longer to break the force of inertia and move and in that time more of the powder lights off as opposed to a lighter boolit moving faster down the bore and the pressure dropping off quicker b/c the powder doesn't burn quite as efficiently? Hard to say.

Now.. As far as Polar Bears go, I have a fixed sight revolver, and you work up loads that "bring the boolit to the sights" and once there, you tend to want to use only those loads that shoot to point of aim. That in itself is one very good reason to stick with one boolit weight range. I tried shooting 260s out of this gun and they shoot faster, so it hits several inches low on the target. I suppose I could slow them down and give them more dwell time in the barrel and that would raise POI enough to be acceptable, but now what happens to the velocity? How slow do I have to go to bring it to the sights? IF it even will come up enough? Is it worth the effort? I don't think so. What can a lighter boolit accomplish that the heavier one can't do?

This gun likes 300+gr boolits, it likes gas checks, it likes the 1150ish speeds, it does what I want it to do without fuss and without error. AND, it's cheaper to shoot than lighter boolits, AND it saves lead! You won't want to go much over 20rds in a range session with it so it saves on powder and primers too!

[Michael J. Spangler]

What we have is skinny little doberman sized deer that like to hide behind trees so you don't get a good shot, but no matter, 22.5gr of H110 will push that Lee 300gr RF boolit right through the tree AND the deer and you get to fill your tags anyway! :bigsmyl2:

I think anything up to 30,000psi is good legal fun in the Rugers, I don't try to exceed their limitations. Same with if you want to take game at 100yds with .45 Colt and the RF boolit, use a levergun (or the .44 SBH with a dot!) rather than the short barreled Vaquero. I'd like to take it on a hog hunt though!

OP I cannot find that article you are talking about. I can only figure that the heavies take longer to break the force of inertia and move and in that time more of the powder lights off as opposed to a lighter boolit moving faster down the bore and the pressure dropping off quicker b/c the powder doesn't burn quite as efficiently? Hard to say.

Now.. As far as Polar Bears go, I have a fixed sight revolver, and you work up loads that "bring the boolit to the sights" and once there, you tend to want to use only those loads that shoot to point of aim. That in itself is one very good reason to stick with one boolit weight range. I tried shooting 260s out of this gun and they shoot faster, so it hits several inches low on the target. I suppose I could slow them down and give them more dwell time in the barrel and that would raise POI enough to be acceptable, but now what happens to the velocity? How slow do I have to go to bring it to the sights? IF it even will come up enough? Is it worth the effort? I don't think so. What can a lighter boolit accomplish that the heavier one can't do?

This gun likes 300+gr boolits, it likes gas checks, it likes the 1150ish speeds, it does what I want it to do without fuss and without error. AND, it's cheaper to shoot than lighter boolits, AND it saves lead! You won't want to go much over 20rds in a range session with it so it saves on powder and primers too!

That makes sense I guess. Thank you.
Now I need to go shoot this damn thing already!

[dmize]

Once again. I'm not going to hot rod this gun. I never mentioned anything beyond load considered normal and listed on the Hodgdon site for ruger only loads.
All I wanted to know is if anyone can explain what is said in that article.

Why do big bores push heavy bullets just as easy as something 20% lighter as stated in that article.

FWIW I have been trying to get an explanation for this for a long time.
I think your best bet to get an answer without the hijacking nonsense is to research Linebaugh and Bowen or even email them.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I think you have a great idea! Thanks man!

[High Desert Hunter]

I think the bigger the bore, the easier it is to push the bigger bullets with less pressure. There have been a stack of articles in a variety of magazines that ponder the subject. I own 2 Blackhawks, and one Flattop 45, in addition to a S&W 45 Colt, I own a 454, so I don't load any "Ruger" only loads any longer due to the Flattop. I do know that the 45-270SAA at 289 grains is the most versatile bullet I have used in the Colt, extreme accuracy coupled with excellent penetration. I used to shoot a fair number of 325gr WFNGC bullets from my Accusport Ruger Bisley at 1200fps, accurate and penetrate for days, and the recoil isn't as snappy as 310s in my 44 at the same speed despite the heavier weight of the 44. The 325s are now relegated to 454 use, but in the Flattop and others i shoot a lot of the 289gr SWC at 1100-1200 FPS. Case life in my 45 Colt has been 4 times that of my 44 cases, both Starline Brand. I really enjoy the 44, and won't part with my SBH due to our history, but I dearly love the 45 Caliber. Look up some of Ross Seyfried's old articles, he wrote some really good stuff about the 45 Colt.

[Whiterabbit]

I use 21.5 gr of 296 in both the .44 and .45 with the 300+ boolits. I also use the Fed 150 in both. For some reason it seems to be a magic number for accuracy. This is not a max load but seems to be the most accurate out of 7-1/2", a shorter barrel might want 22 gr.
I can say that before I put Pachmeyer grips on my Vaquero, 6 shots was enough for a day.
I would not kick lighter boolits under the table but I prefer the heavy ones for deer.

Do you think you could take a 5.5" barreled old vaquero out to 100 yards with such a load? 6" groups?

[9.3X62AL]

I'm in MT Gianni's camp as far as the Lyman #454424 is concerned, and I like it at its 1873 blackpowder potential--1000 FPS or so from a 7.5" barrel. This isn't a "docile" load, but it isn't going to set off seismographs, either. Modern factory 255 grainers run about 800 FPS, which is a pretty decent bad guy intervention device......but I like the BisHawk to express all of its heritage with each shot. These same loads were safe in a Uberti SAA clone with 4-3/4" barrel, and yielded 875-900 FPS. I've used Unique, Herco, Blue Dot, 2400, IMR 4227, and SR-4756 to get these rates--none seems to be a whole lot better fuel than another. At some point, it is time for either a 44 Magnum or a rifle. Shooting is supposed to be enjoyed, not endured.

[LAH]

Shooting is supposed to be enjoyed, not endured.

Agreed.

[9.3X62AL]

Creeker, seeing your "framing" of my statement--perhaps it sounds a little harsh and judgemental. That was not my intent, nor is it my core belief. If a shooter derives joy and satisfaction from herding such a beast as a 325 grain 45 Colt bullet upwards of 1200 FPS, then by all means go right ahead and indulge that pleasure. The last thing I ever want to be is a killjoy, and it's really none of my business.

I guess my point is that if I was to launch a 325 grain 45 caliber bullet at 1200 FPS+, I would be doing it from a 45-70 rifle. I do A LOT of handgun shooting--I would estimate close to 20 sideiron rounds for every rifle round I crank off. I just don't care for gratuitous recoil from my handguns any more. My top-end 44 Magnum loads mostly get fired from a Winchester 1892 these days, also. I think Elmer Keith said volumes when he mentioned that "1200 FPS is all you need" with his 240 grain SWC bullet in 44 caliber. That recoil level is as much as I want in a S&W revolver, that's for certain. Tone down #429421 to 1100 FPS--which is still a potent stopper--and you have a controllable repeat-fire sidearm in my Ruger Redhawk x 5.5".

[LAH]

I used a 250 Keith at 1200 in a 4" M29 for 8 years. This is a reasonable load in that platform and certainly not unpleasant to use. In the SBH though it is a killer for me but others shoot it well and if you can do more I say go for it.

[jmort]

A standard pressure load,i.e. 255 grain SWC @ 950 fps will shot though most any creature on a broadside so I think the posts recommending 300 grain at around 1150 +/- make the most sense.

[DougGuy]

Why do big bores push heavy bullets just as easy as something 20% lighter as stated in that article.

Had a fleeting thought for a moment about hydraulic cylinders, and the laws of physics, and about how you have a master that generates the pressure, and a slave that generates the work done. The slave (the Big Bore in this equation) has a larger area of the piston which the pressure exerts force against. Although it may not move in a linear amount comparable to the master's piston, it exerts force over a large area making the movement that does happen, happen quite easily. That's one part of it.

Another part is this. Top fuel racing engines put out northwards of 8,000HP these days, they do this with several key factors that if not incorporated in the build of the engine, would fall flat on it's face. Long rods, as the crank clocks up towards top dead center, the piston slows down and has longer dwell time at the top of the cylinder than a short rod block has. It takes more degrees of crank rotation after top dead center before the piston moves downward in the bore .100" and by that time, cylinder pressure has fallen off considerably, but the nitro methanol those engines burn isn't all consumed yet. It puts out more pressure and for a greater degree of crank rotation than any other fuel on the planet.

So you have this dwell time with maximum compression and relatively slow burning fuel generating crazy cylinder pressures and it holds that pressure peak much longer than a quicker burning fuel would maintain pressure for.

The big bore revolver, is like that hydraulic slave cylinder, there is a large area of the boolit (or piston) exposed to the pressures of igniting fuel. You have a slow burning powder that is not all consumed before the boolit moves very far, and it holds that pressure curve for a longer period of time. As the boolit moves, the volume inside the combustion chamber (the cylinder and to some extent the bore) increases, same as it does in a top fuel engine, but our fuel (slow burning powder) is still generating pressure from combustion, and it exerts a higher amount of force against the boolit for a longer period of time.

A lighter boolit is easier to move, and it moves farther for the same amount of force exerted against it, and it moves faster, causing the volume in the combustion chamber to increase much faster now than with a heavier boolit, and the peak in the pressure curve developed from the powder burning is MUCH shorter timewise because the lighter boolit is moving faster, and so you see where the heavier boolit is actually creating a situation where the combustion is more efficient, and much more of the energy produced is transferred to the slave cylinder (the boolit!) instead of lost in the volumetric conversion of the faster moving boolit.

Does this make any sense? I think this is why you don't see a proportionate change in velocity with changes in boolit weight. We can just say the heavy for caliber boolit is more efficient, and the reason it has an edge over the lighter counterparts, is that the volumetric losses with the lighter boolit, are greater than with a heavy boolit.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Damn fine post sir.
That's a conclusion a friend and I had some to when discussing it. Just not as detailed and eloquent.

[9.3X62AL]

THAT earned this thread "sticky" status, AFAIC. Clear description of a pretty complex concept.

[woodbutcher]

:veryconfu Back in the day(1880`s),my Grandfather loaded his 1873 .45 Colts to the factory standard of the day.He said that he was never disappointed with the performance.On 4 OR 2 legged targets.IIRC,he said that he cast his own boolits and used what he called a "nut cracker"tool to reload his ammo.
Maybe a Lyman 310 tool?IIRC,he said the slugs were 250 grn.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Whiterabbit]

It's a well known fact that animals, 2 legged and 4 legged, are getting tougher now than they were back in the day. Deer that used to fall to a 30-30 needed 30-06 and now 300 weatherby or stronger. We have pigs now with thick armored plates that need at LEAST a Remington Ultra Magnum of some sort or else there is no penetration past the cartilage layer. And forget about people defense If you don't have a 357 sig, 10mm auto, or 460 Rowland. No surprises that 45 colt has been retired to make way for the 454 cassul and 460 S&W.

[Tar Heel]

That's it. I using Nitro Methanol in my 45 now! :bigsmyl2:

[Tar Heel]

Damn fine post sir.
That's a conclusion a friend and I had some to when discussing it. Just not as detailed and eloquent.


Hear Hear!!!! Not bad for a Carolina wood tick!

[DougGuy]

Hey I resemble that remark!

We was in the woods today looking for morels and found a few fiddleheads..

[Tar Heel]

Hey I resemble that remark!

We was in the woods today looking for morels and found a few fiddleheads..

Be careful what you eat like that. Some of those things are "Magic".

[TybrneRyan]

Those are fantastic links! Thanks for sharing!