.243 swagging dies

[Cerd]

Id like to start swagging, but the only dies I've I've found were Corbons for $700. I'm not sure I want to fully commit yet so are there any cheaper die sets out there? Otherwise, can somebody here make some? I was hoping to just use my reloading press like the Corbons say they are compatible with.


Thanks guys,

Cerd

[Hickory]

If you have a passion for this sort of hobby and are young enough (30's) to learn and get the full financial benefit from your purchase, go for it. If you think it's too much money . . . well, only you can decide that.

[Reload3006]

Swaging is expensive no matter whos outfit you use. Are the bullets any good? I believe the bullets I make are better than any I can buy. If I use commercial jackets. J4 Sierra or Corbin,RCE. Using spent brass and Copper tubing makes acceptable bullets. Now as far as If its worth it or not? If your an accountant running the numbers there is no way you can justify the cost of set up. You will never recoup your money unless your shooting machine guns. But the intangible benefits are these and you have to decide if they are worth the money or not As Hickory said only you can decide that. I have bullets for everything I shoot even if its not on the shelves of my local GS or reloading store. I also can taylor my ammo to what my rifle or hand gun likes the best if it should happen to like a bullet that is an odd ball weight I have the ability to make that instead of making the best compromise of available commercial options out there. Then I have the added pleasure that comes from punching a 5 shot one hole target or venison on my table produced from bullets I made myself. What price tag do you put on that. The best advise I can give you is read a lot this site is a fantastic resource for swaging read everything you can get your hands on and then make an informed decision. Is reloading press dies the way you should go or a dedicated swaging press? or a combination of the two.

[Cerd]

Here's the thing. I only have a 22LR and a .243 Win. Any pistols, I can just cast, but I would like jacketed rounds for my rifle. Being as I have to drive 150 miles to be able to use my rifle for deer hunting, I will rarely use it for that purpose. I bought it with the intentions of going prairie dog hunting, but that's few and far between. However, I could use 500 rounds in a weekend easily just doing that. But as for the press, I cant justify the cost of a dedicated press for only one caliber.

If I can cast .243 rounds capable of the same ballistics, I would prefer that for now. However, I was under the impression that even with GC, lead alloys simply cant handle the pressures of a full scale load. That was why I was looking into swaging.

[clodhopper]

Like Reload3006 says, you can never justify the cost in hard accounting.
What are the chances you will in future purchase another rifle? I would think pretty good because just a few 500 round weekends with the 243 and you will start to notice accuracy down grades.
If your time is valuable, just the time swagging bullets will never pan out. Let alone set up costs.
If having time to retreat to your bench, put off the worries of the present and make some bullets has any appeal to you. Then consider it enterainment spending.
If you are in your thirties, fourties or fifties spending now while you have an income could be setting you up for retirement when you have plenty of time but no money. Under those conditions I reccomend (with the gift of hindsight) that you buy a quality, dedicated swage press, and dies.
Caluculate what you spend now on entertainment, cost per day. Then figure years of enjoyment from tools that make bullets.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If you are thinking about it...it's probably the time to buy.

Good swaging dies can provide a lifetime of bullets.
How many years do you expect to be shooting a 243 ?
$700 may actually be a cheap alternative to buying commercial bullets.

Now read the Tea Leafs...
(I hate to bring up politics, but I'm gonna)
If you look at what happened with Guns/ammo/reloading components during the Clinton administration...what happened during Obama's regime'...Now let's think of what might happen if we get 8 years of Hillary starting in 2016...and if the Dems' keep the congress. What I see if that comes true...you won't be finding too many affordable 243 projectiles.

Again, $700 sounds cheap.
Good Luck,
Jon

[Bullshop]

Beside the cost of the tools also consider the cost of bullet jackets, JACKETS ARE EXPENSIVE!!! Jackets are not always readily available so there is a frustration factor as well. 22 RF cases can be used for 243/6mm jackets but there you run into the same type of limitation that turned you from cast boolits in this caliber, velocity. It is rare to be able to shoot the RF jacket bullets to the same accuracy/velocity as those made with commercial guilding metal jackets.
If you can live with velocities not exceeding about 2500 fps casting is a much cheaper alternative. Casting offers many different levels of tool quality and efficiency unlike swaging. Using the less expensive casting tools you can equal the quality of product as can be made with the expensive tools just at a lesser rate of production.
In cost comparison if you are buying commercial jackets to swage your bullets the cost of a single jacket can equal the cost of a single finished cast boolit.
Another cost is in time. If I were to rate the two different processes of producing projectiles I would say the per bullet time required is greater for swaging than for casting because there are more steps involved with swaging than with casting to reach the finished product stage.
Personally I do both but have to admit that I probably shoot 10/1 more cast than swaged. The reasons are all stated above, time, cost, and the fact that at the 10/1 ratio velocities not exceeding 2500 fps are more than adequate for the intended purpose.

[Cerd]

What manuals are out there that would allow me to compare 22LR brass jackets to copper jackets as well as cast boolits; with and without gas checks?

I was going to start using military surplus powder for about $15/lb as opposed to any store bought powder for double that, but I would need a BHN of about 35 to handle those pressures.

[clodhopper]

There are a few manuals out there, but this forum contains much more information than any manual.
Corbin,s inc has some for sale. There are links here to most of that info.
Check out the last two pages of the second annual swagged bullet shoot to see recent results from members here.

[runfiverun]

if you can't justify the cost of a reloading press then a 700 dollar swage set is not gonna gain you anything.

in this case.
I'd just go to the local gun store and buy 700 bucks worth of 6mm bullets.

[Cerd]

I already have a reloading press. As of now, I don't plan on buying another rifle because I can't rifle hunt around my neck of the woods. So, I was just thinking about getting the one set. I could understand if I had 3 calibers to swage, but why double the cost if they offer standard 7/8-14 threaded dies for my current press?

[Guardian]

I'm new to the swaging game. I was in the same conundrum you are this time last year. It's a lot of money to spend on equipment, but it can be justified.

I'm in my late 30s. I hope to be shooting for 30 more years. I got setup for three calibers with two presses, and a fourth caliber and core molds for each on the way. The accounting for me came out to $200/yr over the 30 year time period.

How many bullets will $200 buy me a year? Assuming an equal mix of 55 gr 223, 123 gr 6.5mm, 175 gr 308, and 180 gr 10mm it will buy me 225 of each (900 total), today. What will it buy me in 5 years? 10? Assuming 3% per year inflation and that bullets are available, I could buy a total of 800 bullets in 5 years, 688 in 10, 512 in 20, and 380 in 30 with $200.

Psychiatrist fees are about $11 per minute. Assume the average person who isn't into guns and/or motorcycles needs one 45 minute session per month, for a total of about $6,000/year.

A $700 setup seems like a worthy expenditure now, doesn't it? It's all in the name of mental health. :bigsmyl2:


Seriously, if you like making stuff, you won't even notice the money is gone in a year. It really is relaxing to unwind in the garage and make bullets, for me. It took me a year to convince myself to take the plunge and I have thoroughly enjoyed the experience thus far. It is a rabbit hole, though......

[algunjunkie]

$700 really isn't all that much in the long run if you think about it. Look at how much is spent every day on "creature comforts" like cigarettes, dip, beer and cokes. Choose your vice and add it up.

Personally I dropped $3500 on a carbide die set in 308 from Detche and that is just a single complete set. In 5 years I could sell it and easily get 75-80% of that back. I have already been offered 95% of it from a fellow swagger in California. You see it is an investment, one that will serve you and in the end pay you back. Don't believe me, look at Ebay. There are used sets there all the time, look at the number of bids.

This hobby does cost to get started but in the end it is for me, my place to relax, experiment and play. My peace of mind and I can not put a dollar figure on that.

[Sitzme]

What kind of press do you have?

[Cerd]

Sitzme, Im not sure if you were talking to me or the others. Right now, I just have a single stage Lee press. In a year or two, I plan on getting a turret press. Either way, if they make dies threaded for 7/8-14, I don't quite understand the need for a $500 specialty press.

To the others, so far, my main motivation for swaging is long term cost/bullet and the independence from the industry during shortages. That makes it an EXTREMELY difficult decision. I am reading some Lyman's manuals to help me decide whether I can cast a decent load or if I am forced to swage to get anything I can hunt with.

[Sitzme]

Press question was for you Cerd. You need a strong enough press. If your Lee is not the Classic Cast then you might need to upgrade. Another expense. Ref the post about what presses are in use. Many will work but I suspect that an aluminum framed press won't live long. You can get the Lee CC for $120 or so and it will work but there are a lot of other options. Watch the used market after doing some research here if you need to upgrade. Take your time and be prepared to part with $30-40 per week for the next year. Then break the piggy bank and get some equipment. In the mean time, it wouldn't hurt to gather some stock on the other items needed like powder, primers, and God forbid, commercial bullets.

"Psychiatrist fees are about $11 per minute. Assume the average person who isn't into guns and/or motorcycles needs one 45 minute session per month, for a total of about $6,000/year." -I second this opinion. Creating things is healthy.

[clodhopper]

A dedicated swage press uses a shorter stroke than a reloading press. With the same pressure on the handle you get more pressure to form bullets.
BTSniper reccomends a lee classic cast press, and with some modifacations works well smaller bullets, and pistol bullets.
Corbin inc, RECCO, Blackmon have a variety of presses desinged to use the die in an upside down function almost opposite if how a reloading press works.
The die is mounted on the ram, a punch is mounted at the top and raising the ram pushes the bullet into the die.
When the ram is lowered an internal punch, mounted in the ram, ejects the bullet.
The reloading press dies need an ejection system add on.
You can use a a soft hammer, or an auto eject system like BTSniper makes, there is also a cam lever design bullet ejector.
To my way of thinking the dedicated swagging press with internal ejection punches allows more access to put parts into the die, less things to tear your flesh or clothes on when walking by, and greater ability to handle long heavy bullets I like to shoot.
My shooting include paper, and steel targets at unknown distances with wind, angle to target, and badly sloped fireing positions.
If hunting was all I planned 700 dollars woud buy all the bullets I ever need.

[Guardian]

....... I don't quite understand the need for a $500 specialty press.

Neither did I. I started off going the BT Sniper route and using a Lee Classic Cast (LCC) press. I bought the press and modified it for a shorter stroke. While waiting for the dies to go with it, I acquired two RCE Walnut Hill presses (one new and one used) and dies to go with those. I went from toe in the water to falling in the pond. After using the WH presses, I canceled the parts for the LCC and ordered parts to adapt BTS dies to the WH press. It takes less effort to swage 0.224 and 0.264 bullets with the WH press than it takes to size 5.56 brass on my Rock Chucker press.

The exception is the effort required to derim 22LR cases. I was surprised that this is the step that requires the most effort for me. Having experienced the effort required on the WH press, I've no interest in trying that on a reloading press. I also now understand why folks build dedicated derimming machines. I approximate the derimming effort on the WH press to be about the same as sizing machine gun fired 308 brass on my Rock Chucker press.

I have not regretted the dedicated swaging press and I really appreciate the input from people that lead me in that direction.


To the others, so far, my main motivation for swaging is long term cost/bullet and the independence from the industry during shortages. That makes it an EXTREMELY difficult decision.

I struggled with exactly the same point. The reality is that this expenditure doesn't make you independent of the market unless you have everything you need on-hand to make all the bullets you'll ever need. Otherwise, you're just depending on a different market with the hope that market is more stable. If you want to be independent of the market, you can stockpile bullets or you can stockpile bullet components.

If you don't have sufficient powder and primers to last the rest of your life, what good is a supply of bullets?

As Reload3006 pointed out early, you can't make the numbers work. The capital expenditure up front is large. My previous post was tongue-in-cheek, but still had a point, either:

you like making stuff and will enjoy the entertainment value and bragging rights of swaging your own jacketed bullets, or
you don't and you buy bullets.



I am reading some Lyman's manuals to help me decide whether I can cast a decent load or if I am forced to swage to get anything I can hunt with.

A lot of stuff died to a lead ball or lead bullet long before the jacketed bullet arrived. Goodsteel, DanWalker, and many others have posted results of their experiences hunting with cast boolits here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?22-Hunting-with-CB-s (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?22-Hunting-with-CB-s).

[Cerd]

Wow! Guys, take a look at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world

I think I will experiment with cast boolits and see if I like the results before buying the swage setup. However, you guys have convinced me that the swage press is the way to go rather than a standard reloading press.

[runfiverun]

either way it's a whole new world than what you are used to.
I have more money invested in casting equipment than in swaging equipment [which is saying something since I swage for 5 different calibers] but they sure do compliment each other.

[tiger762]

One consolation of how much swaging equipment costs is the fact that resale value whould be pretty good, as long as it's not been abused. With so much custom labor involved, I'm not sure prices could come down any. I know I don't work for free. I don't expect Corbins or BTSniper or Blackmon to work for free, neither.

[aaronraad]

One consolation of how much swaging equipment costs is the fact that resale value whould be pretty good, as long as it's not been abused. With so much custom labor involved, I'm not sure prices could come down any. I know I don't work for free. I don't expect Corbins or BTSniper or Blackmon to work for free, neither.

That's the only way I was able to convince the wife...the equipment and tooling is an investment that will at least hold it's value; and all the consumables can also be sold for market rates...she also knows who to contact if I get hit by a bus so the gear doesn't just turn up at some garage sale.