OK I've tried LLA reduced and 45-45-10

[Laredo]

Well I have tried them both and I am still getting lead traces in the barrels of my 45 ACP and 9mm.
What next? I suppose my BOOLITS aren't hard enough as they are made from mostly stick on WW with some clip-ons.
BUT they seem to shoot good. Funny thing is the same alloy shoots REAL good in my .357 mag. Using Unique in the semi-ottos and H-110 in the mag.
Is the Unique too fast in the Ottos?
I am sized .001" over in the .45. Don't know about the Maggie or 9mm grooves. Just sized .001" over nominal and shot them.

[Larry Gibson]

Might try the LLA straight and applied as per the instructions.

I'd add 2% tin to the alloy also.

Larry Gibson

[Recluse]

Might also make sure you're not swaging the boolits down during the crimping process, especially if you're using a FCD.

:coffee:

[mpbarry1]

Larry, how does LLA differ from 45 45 10? velocity performance difference?(dont mean to hijack).

[Bullshop Junior]

Harder is not always key. In that gun stick on ww should be fine. Try a better lube.

[flyingmonkey35]

I don't know mabey the wheel weights have to many miles on them. And there all from left side tires.

Lol could not resist.

are you sizing your boolits?

Where in the barrel do you see the leading?

[runfiverun]

unique is on the slower end of the burn rate for the auto's.
might could try a faster powder, or a bigger boolit, or try adding about 20% beeswax to the 45/45 lube.

[sawzall]

I am sized .001" over in the .45. Don't know about the Maggie or 9mm grooves. Just sized .001" over nominal and shot them.

Fitment is everything. I suspect you're just getting lucky with the .357 mag. Slug your barrels on the autoloaders and size .002" over groove. Both of those lubes you're tried are more than adequate for your applications, in fact they're both good enough for rifle velocity full power loads in my 30-30s.

[Tomuchiron]

I had the same problem. Pull some sample bullets and mic the size. Even using the most minimal taper crimp still seems to change the bullet size. So , mic the pulled bullets and let us know what you have.

[randyrat]

ONE OTHER POSSIBILITY
Check your sizer die,,,you know that sizing plug that expands the inside of the case - Expander plug
If your not expanding your cases enough, when your seat your bullets they get squeezed too much. It don't matter what you size your bullets to if your brass is too tight.
Heavy squeeze is good for Jacketed,, NOT good for cast bullets
1-2 K for cast
4-5 K for jacket
Most dies are sold for jacketed bullet reloading

[Laredo]

Might also make sure you're not swaging the boolits down during the crimping process, especially if you're using a FCD.

:coffee:

I am using the Lee FCD, BUT, I only use the carbide ring to make sure the case will chamber. I stop short of running the case all the way up to crimp.
I will check the the expanding process. Randyrat might be right.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am using the Lee FCD, BUT, I only use the carbide ring to make sure the case will chamber. I stop short of running the case all the way up to crimp.
I will check the the expanding process. Randyrat might be right.

If you feel some resistance, that could very well be your problem.

[Laredo]

I measured the outsides of some loaded .45 ACP cases at lunch time. They measured .471" OD.
I believe the case walls are .010" so that would mean the .471" OD minus .020" wall thickness equals boolit squashed down to .451" minimum.
I'll pull a few tonight after work but it appears you guys were right. The carbide ring is sizing them down too much. Not 100% sure yet but it looks that way.
I should have realized that since the FCD was probably intended for jacketed bullets.
It looks like no more FCD for cast BOOLITS.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, how does LLA differ from 45 45 10? velocity performance difference?(dont mean to hijack).

One of the "45"s in 45 45 10 is LLA and the other "45" and the "10" are other "ingredients" that just water it down. I've been using LLA in numerous applications for as many years as it has been around. I use it at velocities from 300 fps upwards of 1900 fps. No I do not use it exclusively but augment my other lube methods with it. It works great on many moulds (Lee's "TL" bullets and standard cast bullet designs from all makers) but not so well on some cast bullet designs. I mostly use it on Lee TL bullets and on commercial hard cast handgun bullets. It performs well if used as intended and by the directions. The problems most have is from applying too much LLA and/or not allowing it to thoroughly dry. The application of 2 light coats is a lot better than try one heavy coat.

Larry Gibson

[Recluse]

One of the "45"s in 45 45 10 is LLA and the other "45" and the "10" are other "ingredients" that just water it down.

Larry Gibson

The other ingredient is Johnson Paste Wax, which in and of itself has been used by one of our older members here, (Joe) Boer Rancher, quite successfully in velocities exceeding 2000 fps. The JPW contains carnauba wax among other things.

I disagree with the "watering it down" statement as many have found, not just in a modified tumble lube, but in many lube concoctions that one man's "watering down" is another's "enhancement."

Some folks have used just straight beeswax with a colored crayon in it as a lube. Would adding stearate or STP or vaseline be considered "watering it down?"

One of the most popular, effective and prolific cast bullet lubes on the market today is Glenn's Carnauba Red which uses carnauba wax as an enhancement to his base formula. Ben's Red is another. Jeff, over at Cast Bullets Association, developed a fully synthetic lube that has done outstanding as well.

*Shrug* I'm normally not in the habit of defending anything I do or try or come up with as it pertains to reloading or casting because I'm more concerned about the result. In this instance, however, I've had far more success by blending a few ingredients together to make tumble-lubing far easier, far less messy and far more efficient than I ever did using LLA straight.

As far as "tacky," I have a small glob of Lee Liquid Alox I squirted in the lid of a pill bottle container back in 2009. It sits over by my brass cleaning area in the shop, uncovered. Five years later, it is still tacky to the touch. I suspect in another five years, it will still be tacky.

:coffee:

[Larry Gibson]

Recluse

No need to get your dander up over the terminology. "Watering down" was just referenced to it being "cut", mixed or whatever. Point is the question was "how does LLA differ from 45 45 10?". The explanation was not one of criticism but one of explanation of the difference. To answer your question; when anything is added to something that something is diluted or "watered down". Whether the end result is good or bad is not relevant. Fact is the LLA is diluted or "watered down" when anything else is added to it.

Many use LLA straight as per the instructions with success and many don't because they fail to follow instructions on it's use and proper application of it. Many use 45-45-10 with success also and many don't because they fail to follow instructions on it's concoction, it's use and it's proper application, Just more to go wrong with 45-45-10 is all since when everyone makes their own there is no "standard" as such. If you haven't noticed there are more complaints about "leading" here with the use of 45-45-10 than with the use of LLA straight. Again, not criticizing the use of 45-45-10 at all. Just answering a question.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Unqualified opinions are quite entertaining to those that know better, but quite frustrating for those who don't.

Gear

[btroj]

And even fewer complaints of leading from those who don't use LLA at all.

I have had great success with 45/45/10 and wouldn't use LLA any other way. It goes on thinner, dries faster, and works better.

[Larry Gibson]

Ah, we see the pundits are out in force. In case they failed to notice 45-45-10 did not work for the OP. Perhaps in their zeal to prove me wrong at anything they failed to notice that. Makes one wonder what else they failed to notice.

Guys, I do make mistakes but I admit them. Perhaps the two of you should take notice of that, learn from it and move on to more responsible discussions. Your posts, other than being derogatory comments, add nothing to this discussion. Nor do they offer any advice to the OP.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Sorry larry

[mpbarry1]

Thank you for the explaination folks. the reason I asked was i was reading too much into what you said.Like LLA would work better at lower velocities. I have only used 45 45 10. as always, I appreciate the knowlege you all have and your willingness to share.

[357maximum]

At the risk of being labelled a "pundit"........There comes a point in shooting cast where one must decide to "make do" with tumblelubes and their limitations or step up and use a REAL lube.


I would say the OP has a dimensional/fit issue, but my long range diagnosing skills are not always up to the task at hand.

[Larry Gibson]

No risk of being a "pundit" because you offer assistance to the OP and address the question at hand. That's the same as I did. We both may be wrong in our assistance but at least we are trying to help the OP and offer some advice. The "pundits" just followed me over here from another thread and offered derogatory comments directed at me. I don't mind that but they at least could have offered something helpful to the OP.

I also noted a potential problem with the OPs alloy and offered advise there. Yes there are other lubes and lubing methods that are better and easier applied than LLA (at least in my opinion but there are a lot of members here who use and swear by LLA and TLing). From the limited info in the OP's post it appears he's only set up to TL. He has tried LLA mixed in 2 different ways. I simply suggested he also try it straight since he is set up for that. I never said that 45-45-10 was a bad lube or wasn't a "real" lube. Never even insinuated that. I simply told the OP to try LLA straight as that is a known lube and contrary to some opinions it does work if used per the instructions with a decent alloy.

If the LLA worked then the OP would know he possibly messed up in making his batch of 45-45-10. As we see constantly here with bad batches of alloys, use of inappropriate powders, and other "concoctions" (even if they are good concoctions) things can be messed up inadvertently when others make them up on their own. That may simply be the case here.

Point here is we should post information that could help (even if it doesn't) the OP instead of making an ***...."pundit" out of themselves simply attacking another member who is trying to help.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

45/45/10 is a known lube too larry. A very good one too. Many here use it with great results. It does well enough that Lars is now selling it.

For most handgun shooting if you are getting leading with 45/45/10 then you have another problem.

[Beagle333]

Perhaps try a coating. There are other things besides LLA that will keep lead from sticking to the barrel.
Powdercoating works great in pistol calibers and you could get into it cheaper than any make of used lubrisizer.
Just sayin'. :cool:

[btroj]

Powder coating, or Hi-Tek, is certainly a viable option. They certainly both have a following amongst the handgun guys here.

If you decide on a coating do your homework and ask questions up front. Neither is difficult to apply but let others tell you how to avoid the pitfalls. Trust me, they have been there and done that.

[Recluse]

Sure hope nobody thinks I'm a pundit. I don't take sides, don't form or participate in alliances and certainly don't follow anyone around. No time for that and sure as hell no inclination to find or make time for it.

My brief, I guess for lack of a better term, was the vernacular of "watered down," as I've always associated that term with watering down whiskey or chili or gin or gumbo.

Often times when we've been doing something for so long, we tend to become more subjective in our views rather than objective. I'll wave the GUILTY flag all day long on that one.

I had to chuckle over the "REAL LUBE" comment, though. I've been hearing "REAL" applied to every argument known to mankind ranging from Chevy versus Ford pickups, mineral oil versus synthetic oils for engine applications, lead projectiles versus jacketed projectiles, revolvers versus semi-autos, AK47 versus M16, etc etc.

If it gets the job done to my satisfaction with the absolute results I want, be it a pickup truck, firearm, projectile or lube, that makes it more than "real" enough for me. :)

Now, if you wanna discuss real versus non-real, I suppose we could discuss the projectiles seen on various swimsuit models and Hollyweird actresses. Interestingly enough, I suspect we'd have a majority of responses here that actually favor the "not real" assets of those women versus those who favor natural assets.

For the record, I am in the camp of the latter.

:coffee:

[garym1a2]

Not knowing your barrel size I would say in most cases sizing 9mm to .357 and 45acp to .452 should work.
Lead traces statement, does that mean a little bit or a lot?

Well I have tried them both and I am still getting lead traces in the barrels of my 45 ACP and 9mm.
What next? I suppose my BOOLITS aren't hard enough as they are made from mostly stick on WW with some clip-ons.
BUT they seem to shoot good. Funny thing is the same alloy shoots REAL good in my .357 mag. Using Unique in the semi-ottos and H-110 in the mag.
Is the Unique too fast in the Ottos?
I am sized .001" over in the .45. Don't know about the Maggie or 9mm grooves. Just sized .001" over nominal and shot them.

[runfiverun]

the first thing I would do is look at the 9m and the 45 as separate guns.
split them up and work on them separately.
the 45 is easy enough to get working with the proper diameter boolits going down the barrel and that is where I'd start.

the 9m is a little more labor intensive to get shooting well, but once you do you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

[zuke]

I use a LEE TL design,not sized but double tumbled in 45-45-10 in my 45 Win Mag M-1Carbine

[mpbarry1]

I don't take sides. I like all of those projectiles! :-D

[tazman]

Now, if you wanna discuss real versus non-real, I suppose we could discuss the projectiles seen on various swimsuit models and Hollyweird actresses. Interestingly enough, I suspect we'd have a majority of responses here that actually favor the "not real" assets of those women versus those who favor natural assets.

For the record, I am in the camp of the latter.
:coffee:

I don't take sides on this one. I like them all!

[TXGunNut]

I've used LLA from 800 fps to 2400 fps and experienced little if any leading. I don't think it's supposed to work at that velocity but it did. As soon as I work my way thru a few more bottles I'll make/buy some 45/45/10. Biggest problem I have with LLA is sometimes I use too much. If the lube on a boolit nose bothered me I'd wipe it off with mineral spirits.

[Larry Gibson]

45/45/10 is a known lube too larry. A very good one too. Many here use it with great results. It does well enough that Lars is now selling it.

For most handgun shooting if you are getting leading with 45/45/10 then you have another problem.

When one manufacturer makes something to one standard it is a "known" product. When there is just a formula and everyone and their brother makes it to however they perceived the instructions called for there are bound to be problems. Several members here tried very hard to make gear's high speed low drag lube with the very explicate instructions he gave in that long thread. They failed to achieve the same results. There are numerous members here who fail to make up certain alloys even following instructions. We used to make a joke in the Army about correspondence course; be the 1st in your unit to be a qualified Cobra pilot.....by mail.

Point is sometimes things get lost in the translation......also I did not say that 45-45-10 was a bad lube or was not a "real lube". The OP tried his version of it and it failed (possibly). My suggestion was to try the known product, LLA. If that lube worked then the OP would known he screwed up the 45-45-10 mix. If the LLA didn't work then the OP could look elsewhere to find the problem Perhaps by adding the 2% tin to the COWWs as I also suggested. Somehow that all got lost in your translation. There have been numerous examples on this very forum of 45-45-10 not giving non-leading performance at handgun velocities. The problem was the lube which was concocted. That doesn't mean all 45-45-10 concoctions don't work now does it?

Now if you can point me to where I have ever said 45-45-10 was a bad lube I'd like to refresh my memory? What I have said is 45-45-10 sometimes doesn't work. That is just like with any other lube including my favorite; Javelina. Just about any lube can not work under some circumstances. Well that is with most of us here anyway.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I've used LLA from 800 fps to 2400 fps and experienced little if any leading. I don't think it's supposed to work at that velocity but it did. As soon as I work my way thru a few more bottles I'll make/buy some 45/45/10. Biggest problem I have with LLA is sometimes I use too much. If the lube on a boolit nose bothered me I'd wipe it off with mineral spirits.

Not much else to say......

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

Just my personal opinion here fellas, but the only time I have had severe leading was in a ...wait for it.......a 9mm using LLA. An alloy tweak made it better, and a lube change fixed it. My experience with accuracy has also shown LLA falls down before my foot is all the way to the floor...again REAL lube fixed that too. No leading is a very poor standard to judge a lube by IMO.

[RoyEllis]

Now, if you wanna discuss real versus non-real, I suppose we could discuss the projectiles seen on various swimsuit models and Hollyweird actresses. Interestingly enough, I suspect we'd have a majority of responses here that actually favor the "not real" assets of those women versus those who favor natural assets.

For the record, I am in the camp of the latter.

:coffee:

^gospel right there.....just like a picture, they're nice to gaze at......but me no likey sillycone ta ta's, not a bit do I like them.
"Where's the beef?" so to say....:hijack:

[357maximum]

^gospel right there.....just like a picture, they're nice to gaze at......but me no likey sillycone ta ta's, not a bit do I like them.
:hijack:

If anyone ever wondered what would happen if Dr. Seuss's daughter and Ron Jeremy got together and produced a boy. RoyEllis may have just answered that for you. :lol:

[RoyEllis]

If anyone ever wondered what would happen if Dr. Seuss's daughter and Ron Jeremy got together and produced a boy. RoyEllis may have just answered that for you. :lol:

That is flippin hilarious!!! Particularly since I had to google "Ron Jeremy" to find out who he is/was.....imagine my shock when I looked at the wiki page & saw his pic, (shorter, fatter & more hair....but it's ME!)
OMG!! I look like the big brother of a porn star! Now it's a bit scary, (just exactly HOW does Mike know what I look like....both clothed & not so much....I could've swore I destroyed ALL the pics my ex took...) maybe it's time to go incognito awhile?!?:bigsmyl2:

[Walstr]

Recluse

No need to get your dander up over the terminology. "Watering down" was just referenced to it being "cut", mixed or whatever. Point is the question was "how does LLA differ from 45 45 10?". The explanation was not one of criticism but one of explanation of the difference. To answer your question; when anything is added to something that something is diluted or "watered down". Whether the end result is good or bad is not relevant. Fact is the LLA is diluted or "watered down" when anything else is added to it.

Many use LLA straight as per the instructions with success and many don't because they fail to follow instructions on it's use and proper application of it. Many use 45-45-10 with success also and many don't because they fail to follow instructions on it's concoction, it's use and it's proper application, Just more to go wrong with 45-45-10 is all since when everyone makes their own there is no "standard" as such. If you haven't noticed there are more complaints about "leading" here with the use of 45-45-10 than with the use of LLA straight. Again, not criticizing the use of 45-45-10 at all. Just answering a question.

Larry Gibson
-----
That "10" in the Delux Alox spec pertains to a volatile drier to enhance 'curing'. It works very well.

"Laredo" 's lead is too soft, as he's aloying with 'stick on' weights which are pure lead. At least stay with Clip On WW's & try to add 2% tin, then drop the fresh boolits into water for quenching, then let them 'cure' a week for hardness to improve. Pewter is mostly Tin, so add it by weight.

I've pushed my 405gr [Tumble Lube] pills at 1400 fps with no promlemo. I'm still developing loads to see how fast I can reliably go in my Marlin 1895.

[Laredo]

Boy did this thread take off in some odd directions. I didn't mean any of the lubes were no good. I am just getting leading with what I have tried.
I am getting random streaks at various locations down the barrel. But all appear to be in the grooves which could indicate the boolit being sized down too much with the carbide factory crimp die. I will be working on this today.
Thanks for the helpful suggestions though.
I do truly appreciate it.


Not knowing your barrel size I would say in most cases sizing 9mm to .357 and 45acp to .452 should work.
Lead traces statement, does that mean a little bit or a lot?

[357maximum]

That is flippin hilarious!!! Particularly since I had to google "Ron Jeremy" to find out who he is/was.....imagine my shock when I looked at the wiki page & saw his pic, (shorter, fatter & more hair....but it's ME!)
OMG!! I look like the big brother of a porn star! Now it's a bit scary, (just exactly HOW does Mike know what I look like....both clothed & not so much....I could've swore I destroyed ALL the pics my ex took...) maybe it's time to go incognito awhile?!?:bigsmyl2:


Be careful out there, sick and twisted people are everywhere...... or so I hear! :lol:

Apparently you do not have to be good looking to be a porn star, just need to posess the will to do things that may kill your parents iffin they knew about it apparently.

[Laredo]

Walster, my alloy is not 100% stick-on WWs. There is a small portion of clip-on also. I check periodically with a Lee hardness tester.
Curiosity question;
I compared some of my mostly soww alloy which were air-cooled to water dropped soww and the water dropped sticky weights had a bhn of 10 versus 8 for the air cooled.
Isn't a 10 bhn sufficient for pistolas? I am just asking because I want to start water dropping my casted boolits. I think this will help once I get the die temperature thing figured out.

Also, isn't it true that the harder the alloy, the less critical the lube becomes?
I personally do not buy into the notion that leading comes "only" from gas leakage around the bullet as it travels down the barrel. I have leaded up a Lee sizer die after pushing a non-lubed bullet through before. (It was pure lead)


-----
That "10" in the Delux Alox spec pertains to a volatile drier to enhance 'curing'. It works very well.

"Laredo" 's lead is too soft, as he's aloying with 'stick on' weights which are pure lead. At least stay with Clip On WW's & try to add 2% tin, then drop the fresh boolits into water for quenching, then let them 'cure' a week for hardness to improve. Pewter is mostly Tin, so add it by weight.

I've pushed my 405gr [Tumble Lube] pills at 1400 fps with no promlemo. I'm still developing loads to see how fast I can reliably go in my Marlin 1895.

[Gray Fox]

A couple other factors that might affect the OP's success are: Have the barrels been really cleaned of any copper fouling? What is the condition of the chamber throats? What is the bore condition in each? In each of these areas the OP might benefit with a 30 minute application of J-B Bore Paste per the instructions to slick the barrels up a bit. Just some more gas thrown on the fire, I guess. GF